Airlines Attacked For Labelling All Men Paedophiles

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Postby JimJim » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:00 am

This is causing quite a stir in Australia at the moment and for once I'm actually genuinely pissed off by something in the news.

Here's how it started:

Sydney fireman John McGirr accuses Virgin of discrimination
VIRGIN Airlines has been accused of treating men like paedophiles, after it made a man swap seats because he was seated next to two minors.

Sydney fireman John McGirr, who wrote an online blog post titled "My Virgin experience as a Paedophile", was on board a flight from Brisbane when he was seated next to two males he estimates were between 8 and 10 years old.

Just before take-off Mr McGirr was approached by a flight attendant, who asked him to move seats because the company's policy states that men cannot sit next to unaccompanied minors.

"She said it was the policy and I said, 'Well, that's pretty sexist and discriminatory. You can't just say because I'm a man I can't sit there,' and she just apologised and said that was the policy," Mr McGirr wrote in a blog online.

"By this stage everyone around me had started looking."

A female passenger was then asked to take Mr McGirr's seat.

"After that I got really embarrassed because she didn't even explain. I just got up and shook my head a little, trying to get some dignity out of the situation," he said.

Virgin defended its policy, yesterday saying Mr McGirr's reaction was typical of the industry.

"In our experience, most guests thoroughly understand that the welfare of the child is our priority," a Virgin spokeswoman told the media.

"Our intention is certainly not to discriminate in any way,'' the airline said in a statement, before stating that it would review its policy.

The decision by Virgin inspired Mr McGirr to pen what appears to be a satirical letter to Virgin, suggesting some amendments to their seating policies:

Amendment 1# Men should only be allowed to sit next to other men.

Because after all the majority of individuals who commit rape are men. Shouldn’t we then presume that we are all rapists and cant be trusted to sit next to any female. Actually that discounts male to male rape. Sorry.

Amendment 2# No male should sit next to anyone.

A spare seat will be allocated next to any male at any time to ensure the safety of women and children.
- News.com.au

Now it has come to light that a few other major airlines try to enforce the exact same sexist policy. Virgin Australia are getting absolutely slaughtered with comments on their Facebook page, 90% attacking them for being sexist, 10% crazy women who support them. A lot of people are arguing that the majority of sexual assault on children happens from friends and family members, not strangers. Stuff like this is popping up as people argue what if their figurehead Richard Branson were sitting next to the kids:

Image

One of my favourite posts on another forum:
He is white.
He is male.
He is aged between 30 to 50.
He is by himself.
He probably just looks like a normal guy, but inside lurks the mind of a deadly child rapist.
How on earth did we get to this point in society?
What is more important, providing a proper duty of care, or just assuming females aren't capable of terrible things. Thoughts?
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Postby Virgostar » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:59 am

How on earth did we get to this point in society?
I think feminism may have something to answer for this. Unfortunately there are those types out there who believe all men are rapists in general, not just child ones. I find that incredibly sad, not to mention rather poisonous in mindset.

I also think providing a proper duty of care is more important. Females are capable of doing terrible things and not all females are great mothers either. Men don't have a monopoly on all things "bad", nor are all of them paedos/weirdos etc & we as a society need to stop believing/stop being brainwashed into thinking that they do cos it's bullsh** frankly.
Last edited by Virgostar on Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby cristy » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:01 am

That's messed up. :o It's horrible to see that these days, when we're trying to eliminate discrimination as much as we can, we've got established companies enforcing such stupid, sexist policies.
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Postby biscuits » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:06 am

Shouldn't young children be sat with their parents anyway?

And even though this isn't exactly fair, at least it means not having to sit next to annoying kids!
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Postby Virgostar » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:08 am

biscuits wrote:Shouldn't young children be sat with their parents anyway?
The kids were unaccompanied on the flight apparently - no parents onboard with them.
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Postby JimJim » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:09 am

biscuits wrote:Shouldn't young children be sat with their parents anyway?
The policy is about children who are travelling unaccompanied i.e. without any parents/guardians present
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Postby biscuits » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:12 am

JimJim wrote:
biscuits wrote:Shouldn't young children be sat with their parents anyway?
The policy is about children who are travelling unaccompanied i.e. without any parents/guardians present
But that's what I'm questioning...it seems quite strange to send a minor onto a plane unaccompanied.
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Postby Virgostar » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:14 am

It does happen - I think my brother might've been on a plane unaccompanied once when he was a child. Don't quote me on that cos I'm not sure it happened, but my hazy memory tells me it did.
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Postby Dannyboy » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:31 am

I myself, for instance, work as a flight attendant and our airline has the same sort of policy. I do find it quite offensive too. But, on the other hand, this policy does´t have anything to do with discriminating anyone or pigeonholing any male into being pedophiliac. It rather is preventive and precautionary. Just imagine it would have happened that a pedophiliac male would pick a minor that he was seated next to in an airplane as his "victim". The airline would inevitably made responsible for such an incident. Therefore, it is only reasonable to have such policies. They are all made for reasons. Just saying 8-)
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Postby sambo9 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:44 am

Virgostar wrote:It does happen - I think my brother might've been on a plane unaccompanied once when he was a child. Don't quote me on that cos I'm not sure it happened, but my hazy memory tells me it did.
Yeah, it is more common than you think! Children with separated parents will sometimes fly alone when moving to the other parents' home.
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Postby samra » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:51 am

People often think of sexism as men domineering over women but there is a lot of subconscious stigma against men.

And how is anyone meant to pick on a minor during aboard a plane anyway? If they're going to put this policy in place they should allocate kids tickets next to female passengers before anyone boards the plane. I can't image how embarrassing it would be to be asked to move before take off on a loaded plane.
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Postby JimJim » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:13 am

Dannyboy wrote:I myself, for instance, work as a flight attendant and our airline has the same sort of policy. I do find it quite offensive too. But, on the other hand, this policy does´t have anything to do with discriminating anyone or pigeonholing any male into being pedophiliac. It rather is preventive and precautionary. Just imagine it would have happened that a pedophiliac male would pick a minor that he was seated next to in an airplane as his "victim".
You're missing the point - they asked the man to swap places with a woman. A female is capable of just as many terrible things as a man, any thought otherwise is sexist. If the policy said that children had to seated alone, or solely with other children, then fair enough - but that is not the case.

By the same logic, unaccompanied children shouldn't be attended to by male flight attendants, male check-in staff etc. etc. it is absolutely ludicrous.

samra wrote:People often think of sexism as men domineering over women but there is a lot of subconscious stigma against men.
Exactly and we see it everyday. Whether it be in handing down decisions of child custody, looking down upon stay-at-home fathers... or even advertisements! You make an ad that features a woman looking stupid and it gets taken off the air. Yet, how many ads show the husband as a bumbling fool who has no idea about cleaning/kitchen appliances etc. yet that is okay and considered funny. It's double-standards, either everyone suffers, or no one does IMO.
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Postby spiritboy » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:25 pm

Don't we read many "female" teachers having sex with their underage students?

This is totally BS, and they should arrange it before boarding the plane. I can't imagine the man's embarrasement.
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Postby ANH » Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:46 pm

I think it's horrible that the people behind these companies believe that all men are pedophiles. And I think it's horrible that there's some people who believe that all men are pedophiles.

But, perhaps the correct thing to do is to move the older, male passenger towards the aisle seat. It would be easier to see him, his hands, and wouldn't cause an embarrassing scene. And this should be done for every adult person, man and woman, for the reasons that were stated here. Everyone, man and woman, is capable of evil.
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Postby alxx » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:56 pm

Ridiculous. And children shouldn't be allowed to travel unaccompanied on a plane either in my opinion.
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Postby Tansike » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:05 pm

I don't see where the problem is. It's just to protect the children.

My boyfriend is working for another airline and they have the same rule.
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Postby hotMCfan » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:10 pm

samra wrote:People often think of sexism as men domineering over women but there is a lot of subconscious stigma against men.

And how is anyone meant to pick on a minor during aboard a plane anyway? If they're going to put this policy in place they should allocate kids tickets next to female passengers before anyone boards the plane. I can't image how embarrassing it would be to be asked to move before take off on a loaded plane.
This is what I was thinking. They should have segregated the 'males' from the minors in the first place. I would be very offended if I was in the shoes of the guy.
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Postby biscuits » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:27 pm

Tansike wrote:I don't see where the problem is. It's just to protect the children.
The problem is generalising all males as dangerous sexual predators, but not the women.
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Postby Timmy94 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:32 pm

This reminds me of Arabian people/people from the near east being checked very closely if they want to fly to the US, just because some "people" are responsible for 9/11. That's the same generalisation, a lot of people have to suffer for what very few others did.

And so I can totally not understand that men are labelled pedophiles. There were enough cases of women or even other kids (!) raping or abusing kids.

Kids up to a certain age (maybe 12?) shouldn't fly alone...
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Postby biscuits » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:34 pm

Timmy94 wrote:Kids up to a certain age (maybe 12?) shouldn't fly alone...
I agree. Sending a child on a plane is very risky to begin with... (for example, what if there was a problem with the plane? The child would be terrified with no parents/guardians to protect them).
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Postby Ferris » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:07 pm

samra wrote: If they're going to put this policy in place they should allocate kids tickets next to female passengers before anyone boards the plane. I can't image how embarrassing it would be to be asked to move before take off on a loaded plane.
Exactly what i thought - no excuse for it with airlines like Virgin that allocate seats before boarding. Trouble is you'll have people putting 2 + 2 together and coming up with 5 by assuming the person's being asked to move because they've actually done something wrong!

Also i agree with those saying pre-teens shouldn't be allowed to fly without parents/guardians. Kids can often be a pain in the ass on flights as it is, even with parents present. Nevermind when there's no-one to try and keep them in check! :lol:
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Postby Plym » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:33 pm

Me and my sister flew alone on a plane once from Scotland to Guernsey (to see our Dad) as kids and the stewardess was constantly checking to see if we were ok. My parents aren't irresponsible.
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Postby JimJim » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:00 am

Tansike wrote:I don't see where the problem is. It's just to protect the children.
Explain to me exactly how this policy does anything to protect children?
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Postby Tansike » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:48 pm

Well, nearly every paedophile were men, so this policy is trying to protect children from paedophile. And because you can't see who's a paedophile, the policy says that men can't sit next to unaccompanied minors.

That's not a bad thing though, the problem in this story is that it's the task of the airline to look where the unaccompanied minors are sitting and then to look that they don't give the seat next to them to men. But here they did and so it's their fault.

Finally, it's a policy. You have to accept it and live with it. It's just for a good reason.

btw nearly every airline has this policy and no one complained before...
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Postby JimJim » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:07 am

You're continuing to miss the point. What evidence is there to suggest that an unrelated man is a significant danger to a child over an unrelated woman? A significant danger to the point that we can't possibly trust them to be in a controlled and monitored environment, such as an aircraft, together. A significant danger to the point where a respected male paediatrician would be asked to switch seats with a potentially irresponsible woman?

The policy is discrimination. Either the unaccompanied children sit alone, or with anyone. Men should not be shamed the way the man in the original story was and many others surely have been.

Statistics from the Australain government:
Findings from the ABS Personal Safety Survey (2005) indicated that for participants who had experienced sexual abuse before the age of 15, only 13.5% identified that the abuse came from their father/stepfather, 30.2% was perpetrated by other male relative, 16.9% by family friend, 15.6% by acquaintance/neighbour and 15.3% by other known person (ABS, 2005).
91.5% of sexual abuse occurs from someone who the child knows, not a stranger (regardless of gender)

Another story has come out today, the Sydney Morning Herald report:

Nurse 'humiliated' by Qantas policy

A nurse was made to feel as if he had a sign that read "kiddie fiddler" over his head after he was moved away from a young girl on a Qantas flight, he said.

Daniel McCluskie said he had a similar experience to a firefighter on a Virgin Australia flight when he was made to switch seats with a woman because he was sitting next to an unaccompanied child.

Qantas has defended its policy, saying it is consistent with that of other airlines around the world and reflects parents' concerns.

Mr McCluskie, 31, is a senior nurse at the local health district in Wagga Wagga and was flying from the city to Sydney in June when he said he was humiliated by the cabin crew.
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He was seated in the second last row of the flight next to a girl he estimated to be 10 years old.

After the safety demonstration, a flight attendant asked a woman on the opposite side of the aisle to swap seats with Mr McCluskie.

After the plane was in the air and the meals had been served, Mr McCluskie said he went to the back of the aircraft to ask why he had been moved and was told it was the policy of Qantas not to have men sit next to unaccompanied children.

"There were people that looked during the actual move, people looked at me or looked around because there was a bit of a ruckus at the back of the plane," he said.

"And then the man in front of me throughout the flight kept looking at me and obviously my sense of paranoia was heightened, if you want to call it that, because of what had occurred.

"After the plane had taken off, the air hostess thanked the woman that had moved but not me, which kind of hurt me or pissed me off a bit more because it appeared I was in the wrong, because it seemed I had this sign I couldn't see above my head that said 'child molester' or 'kiddie fiddler' whereas she did the gracious thing and moved to protect the greater good of the child."

Mr McCluskie said he has working-with-children checks almost yearly and told the flight staff he found his treatment and the policy insulting and discriminatory.

He asked to speak to a manager when the plane landed in Sydney and was told there was no one available on the weekend who could talk to him.

Instead he was given a customer care card to fill out with his feedback.

Mr McCluskie said he did not hear back from Qantas and followed up his complaint with an email more than a week ago but still did not hear back from the airline.

It was not until he tweeted about it last Wednesday – two days before the news broke of Virgin's treatment of one its male customers – that he got a response.

"They got back with a semi-sympathetic apology, if that," he said.

"I was just told it was the policy and it was what people who send unaccompanied minors on flights want and it's not their fault, which I disagreed with at the time ...

"I think it absolutely sucks; it's totally and utterly discriminatory in my mind. It's a complete and utter generalisation ...

"You don't know who the person is and it's highly unlikely [that a child will be harmed on a flight]. If a child is going to be harmed or hurt it's probably going to be by someone closer to them than a stranger on a flight.

"I was absolutely fuming. I couldn't have been angrier at Qantas."

Mr McCluskie said he would like to see the policy either scrapped completely, have parents fly with their children if they were really concerned or have Qantas chaperones fly with children and look after them.

"I hate to say this but it is a sign of that reverse discrimination that occasionally exists out there," he said.

Virgin Australia announced a review of its policy on Friday after a backlash to the story of fireman Johnny McGirr, who was asked to move seats away from two children on a Brisbane to Sydney flight in April.

A Qantas spokesman confirmed the policy, but said it was rare that a passenger was asked to swap seats after boarding the plane.

"Qantas's policy is consistent with other airlines around the world and is designed to minimise risk," he said.

"The policy reflects parents' concerns and the need to maximise the child's safety and well-being.

"In most instances unaccompanied children are allocated seats prior to boarding and there are no issues.

"On the rare occasion where a male passenger is seated next to an unaccompanied child, airlines need to take care when moving passengers to ensure this is done discreetly and respectfully."

Qantas policy states that unaccompanied minors must not be seated next to an adult male customer or in an exit row and in some circumstances, a window seat.

Where possible Qantas aims to seat children near crew areas or next to an empty seat.

"We try to pre-seat children in the most appropriate areas. However, due to late bookings we will sometimes need to move the child to seat them in a more appropriate area," the spokesman said.

In 2010, British Airways changed its policy that men travelling alone could not sit next to unaccompanied children after they were taken to court for contravening the Sex Discrimination Act.

British Airways now seats unaccompanied children in their own area after businessman Mirko Fischer sued the company when flight staff asked him to move away from a child after he had switched seats with his pregnant wife.

BA denied its policy was discriminatory but admitted to sex discrimination in Mr Fisher's case and agreed to pay him £2161 in costs and £750 in damages.
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