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  • #31
    Originally posted by edge3
    Interesting post Basil.

    But if you're saying Elvis has sold about 330M albums worldwide then surley he has also sold about 200M singles minimum. That would take his cumulative total to around 530M records - but I've heard so many reports (& not just from his record company) that he's sold 1 billion records. So, am I just a sucker or what?
    No, according to RIAA, Elvis' singles total certifications are 50 million, he has 153 charting singles, so probably finished at 60 million in US alone. counting 19 million in UK, unknown in Germany and France, and small markets like Australia, Japan. There's still far away to reach another 130 million to reach 200 million in total.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Basil
      Originally posted by edge3
      Also, Gold IS certified for 6M sales in US - the soundscan total of 3.7M figure is mainly from 1991-1997 when soundscan accounted for 40-85% of total album sales. So, even if the S.America figures are too high, it's still sold at least 20M worldwide.

      The 350-400M is NOT really my thinking - this is the figure which is virtually always printed in the media. I am as surprised as you that ABBA have sold 350-400M records worldwide 'cos they don't seem to have sold that many in US.
      Hi edge

      The riaa figure for Abba Gold of 6m is fine. The 3.7m soundscan figure is probably not a coverage issue. When it was released, coverage was at least 50% and anyway scans were weighted to account for this. Coverage rose quite rapidly and is now 95%. The forgotten factor is the old record clubs. Gold sold 884,000 via BMG up to 2003 and the figure for Columbia House, which we don't know could be equally high. The album is a regular on the Billboard catalogue chart, so must be selling a minimum 200,000 annually there.

      Garth Brooks total soundscan figure is about 66m against 97.5m shipments. The 30m difference is down to record clubs.

      This 350-400m figure for Abba is very likely record company hyperbole. As I mentioned in the post above, an old trick was to say that each album was 6 singles (A and B side) which led to apparent billion plus worldwide sales for such artists as Elvis and Bing Crosby.

      Whether the record company have done it in this case to get 350-400m, I don't know. If fact, I've no idea how many records Abba sold, only that they sold an awful lot and still do so.
      If it makes any difference the 350-400M figures for ABBA were not (directly at least) from the record company but mainly from UK broadsheet newspaper journalists. I would break the figures down to something like 250M albums + 100-150M singles. But, again, maybe I'm just being a sucker.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by nelson
        No, according to RIAA, Elvis' singles total certifications are 50 million, he has 153 charting singles, so probably finished at 60 million in US alone. counting 19 million in UK, unknown in Germany and France, and small markets like Australia, Japan. There's still far away to reach another 130 million to reach 200 million in total.
        If he's sold 80M singles in US & UK then I would think he HAS sold about 200M singles worldwide. Come on man!! He was the biggest single artist EVER!!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by edge3
          Interesting post Basil.

          But if you're saying Elvis has sold about 330M albums worldwide then surley he has also sold about 200M singles minimum. That would take his cumulative total to around 530M records - but I've heard so many reports (& not just from his record company) that he's sold 1 billion records. So, am I just a sucker or what?
          I'm sure he may have sold that many singles. Only thing is, when talking about total sales it normally means albums. Lumping albums and singles together seems iffy. It means you can't compare say Elvis/Beatles with Led Zeppelin/Pink Floyd.

          So if a record company say 1 billion records they mean albums and singles and may sometimes count each album as 6 singles.

          Single sales are fine in isolation, so you can work out the biggest selling singles band in the UK or the world, and also do the same for albums.

          Maybe it's just me, but albums seem to be a better measure of an artists long term popularity as it is a bigger investment for the buyer and albums can stay available in the shops for decades.

          Just an opinion, though, among all the stats!
          See Page One of my threads for all updates

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by edge3

            If it makes any difference the 350-400M figures for ABBA were not (directly at least) from the record company but mainly from UK broadsheet newspaper journalists.
            You trust journalists - they'll print anything.

            Seriously, though, even if this figure is true, and we have no way of knowing, I'm certain it means records - that is albums and singles.

            250m album sales is not impossible, but it is unprovable.

            I've read Abba's biography and there's no doubt that their sales outside America where huge. Abba Gold continues this and even sells well in the US.

            Apparently Channel 4 will be listing the 100 Best Selling UK albums in 2006 with actual sales figures at lond last. It will be very interesting to see how many Abba albums make that list. In the 70's and 80's in the UK every house seemed to have Abba albums. Getting a good idea of UK sales will help with getting some sort of worldwide figure.
            See Page One of my threads for all updates

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by edge3
              If he's sold 80M singles in US & UK then I would think he HAS sold about 200M singles worldwide. Come on man!! He was the biggest single artist EVER!!
              Where are another 120 million come from?
              In Japan, best selling singles artists are:
              Carpenters - 2.99 million
              Bee Gees - 2.48 million
              So Elvis not in the Top 50 international artists' list. #50 is 490,000, so Elvis would be under 490,000, this is his Japan market.
              Australia
              Elton John - 1 million
              Madonna - 1 million
              bases on certifications and only way fair to all artists, there's no record on Elvis's singles, but he had 13 #1 singles and 37 Top 10 singles, estimation would be 1 million.
              Canada
              Elton John - 2 million
              the most popular artists are around 500,000 based on certificatons only, so estimate Elvis sold 1 million in Canada
              Germany & France
              Elvis had no market in Germany and France, but if estimated based on normal popular artists, it's 1.5 million in France and 1.5 million in Germany.
              So total is 5 million in 5 countries, and all other markets are not bigger than US and 6 countries mentioned above, estimated around another 5 million in ROW. Total is 80 million + 5 million + 5 million = 90 million.

              Comment


              • #37
                I think Nelson is right to dismiss as totally rubbish the 350-400 million claims and to point out that chart positions in countries that don't sell many records is irrelevant.

                However, he does as demonstrated by Colin under-estimate their album sales by focussing on certifications. As Zeus/Colin demonstrated in the UK, multiple platinum awards were only introduced after they split. It may seem like they sold 7 million. Infact, it is almost 15 million!! This is repeated in many countries.

                Global Sales(Albums)
                I estimate,
                Uk 15 million
                us 14 million
                Ger 11 million
                france 3.5 million
                canada 3.5 million
                Aus 6 million
                Jap 3 million

                Total= 56 million in countries that represent 75% of the market! So, Nelson is nearer the truth than most of you!!!!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Basil
                  Originally posted by edge3
                  Interesting post Basil.

                  But if you're saying Elvis has sold about 330M albums worldwide then surley he has also sold about 200M singles minimum. That would take his cumulative total to around 530M records - but I've heard so many reports (& not just from his record company) that he's sold 1 billion records. So, am I just a sucker or what?
                  I'm sure he may have sold that many singles. Only thing is, when talking about total sales it normally means albums. Lumping albums and singles together seems iffy. It means you can't compare say Elvis/Beatles with Led Zeppelin/Pink Floyd.

                  So if a record company say 1 billion records they mean albums and singles and may sometimes count each album as 6 singles.

                  Single sales are fine in isolation, so you can work out the biggest selling singles band in the UK or the world, and also do the same for albums.

                  Maybe it's just me, but albums seem to be a better measure of an artists long term popularity as it is a bigger investment for the buyer and albums can stay available in the shops for decades.

                  Just an opinion, though, among all the stats!
                  Originally posted by Basil
                  Originally posted by edge3

                  If it makes any difference the 350-400M figures for ABBA were not (directly at least) from the record company but mainly from UK broadsheet newspaper journalists.
                  You trust journalists - they'll print anything.

                  Seriously, though, even if this figure is true, and we have no way of knowing, I'm certain it means records - that is albums and singles.

                  250m album sales is not impossible, but it is unprovable.

                  I've read Abba's biography and there's no doubt that their sales outside America where huge. Abba Gold continues this and even sells well in the US.

                  Apparently Channel 4 will be listing the 100 Best Selling UK albums in 2006 with actual sales figures at lond last. It will be very interesting to see how many Abba albums make that list. In the 70's and 80's in the UK every house seemed to have Abba albums. Getting a good idea of UK sales will help with getting some sort of worldwide figure.
                  Fair enough Basil. But I think we CAN compare Led Zep & Pink Floyd with ABBA / the Beatles / Elvis. I know Led Zep & Pink Floyd didn't sell / release many singles but this is compensated for by their mega huge stadium concerts & they've still each sold an estimated 180-200M records - quite possibly enough to put them amongst the top 10 best selling artists of all time (but still behind Elvis, The Beatles & ABBA). In fact Q magazine recently listed Led Zep & Pink Floyd as the 2 biggest bands of all time based on all this info (ABBA came 27th, The Beatles 8th) & I wouldn't really argue with this.

                  As for the often reported 350-400M figure for ABBA - well, I know I shouldn't just trust a few journalists but this figure has also been reported on 2 recent Channel 4 documentary's & several magazine articles.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Gold sales figures are likely to be slightly less than 25 m. With 90% of the market accounted for sales are currently 19 million.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by johnnyboy
                      I think Nelson is right to dismiss as totally rubbish the 350-400 million claims and to point out that chart positions in countries that don't sell many records is irrelevant.

                      However, he does as demonstrated by Colin under-estimate their album sales by focussing on certifications. As Zeus/Colin demonstrated in the UK, multiple platinum awards were only introduced after they split. It may seem like they sold 7 million. Infact, it is almost 15 million!! This is repeated in many countries.

                      Global Sales(Albums)
                      I estimate,
                      Uk 15 million
                      us 12 million
                      Ger 8 million
                      Aus 6 million
                      Jap 3 million

                      Total= 44 million in countries that represent 70% of the market! So, Nelson is nearer the truth than most of you!!!!


                      Also, somebody said the Soundscan figures for Gold are from 91-97. Well, actually it wasn't released until 93 and is up to Autumn 2004. How do i know? Because I wrote to Billboard and got a reply which made it clears the figures were up to date at that time!!!!!!
                      Actually ABBA Gold was released in Oct. 1992 but I guess I was still a bit wrong in saying it was released in 1991. Anyway, I actually said that most of that Soundscan figure of 3.7M would have come from 1991-'97 when Soundscan only covered 50-85% of total album sales - which is true! That's why it is now certified for 6M sales in US.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        It doesn't really matter anyway, what the sales are. But why does Universal exaggerate its sales? And why do some fans seem to think the more you sell the better you are????

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by johnnyboy
                          It doesn't really matter anyway, what the sales are. But why does Universal exaggerate its sales? And why do some fans seem to think the more you sell the better you are????
                          Hey, I never said that & I certainly never think like that. I'm just trying to work out the sales figures as objectively as possible based on all the info I know about.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            The Sounscan figures refer to 1993 to Autumn 2004, as I asked them at taht point and i got a reply stating it was up to 'the fall' of 2004!
                            It was released in 1993 in the US.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by johnnyboy
                              The Sounscan figures refer to 1993 to Autumn 2004, as I asked them at taht point and i got a reply stating it was up to 'the fall' of 2004!
                              It was released in 1993 in the US.
                              It still must have sold most of that 3.7M figure from 93-97 when soundscan only covered about 65-90% of album sales - which is why it is currently certified for sales of 6M in US.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Look mate, I'll try just once more. I wrote to Billboard last Autumn and got that sales figure quote up to that point - last August.
                                Albums in the US often sell less than their certification suggests(eg Shania Twain's Come on Over is certified for 20 million but only sold 15 million).

                                Now stop repeating yourseld by saying those figures 'must' be up to '97 only!!!!!

                                You don't dispute my main points....
                                Total album sales? If they are 56 million in those main countries that constitute 70% of sales then total album sales perhaps of 65million????

                                I'm a fan too but too many can't debate

                                Comment


                                • #46
                                  Being a great fan of Abba they have sold well less than 350 million.The Bee gees have sold even more bearing in mind the Gibb Brothers were huge in every single country of the world.

                                  Spirits having flown sold 5 million in 1979 but universal has not upgraded many bee gees albums since 1984 when double platinum certfications starded to be given.

                                  Besides in France ,italy the bee gees were much more poular than Abba .in the Us no contest abba never had a top 10 album .In South America Abba was huge as well as in Spain.

                                  Basil or Nelson do you have soundscan figures for both abba and bee gees since 1991.

                                  thanks in advance

                                  jcg
                                  MUSIC IS MY PASSION ALONG WITH TENNIS AND I AM A FAMILY MAN .

                                  Comment


                                  • #47
                                    Originally posted by johnnyboy
                                    Albums in the US often sell less than their certification suggests(eg Shania Twain's Come on Over is certified for 20 million but only sold 15 million).
                                    I think you missed my post at the top of this page. The 6m shipment figure and 3.7m soundscan figure is not a problem. The difference is record clubs. Gold sold 884,000 via the BMG club up to early 2003. It probably sold at least as much through the larger Columbia House record club.

                                    The difference in figures for some albums is due to the record club sales. The director of Billboard Charts discussed this at length in an article last year. Big examples are Come On Over, which you pointed out - 20m riaa/15m soundscan, and The Bodyguard - 17m riaa/12m soundscan. The 5m difference in each case is nearly all record clubs.

                                    As an artist, Garth Brooks has scanned 66m through soundscan but has shipped 97.5m albums. This huge difference is again record clubs.

                                    These clubs were at their peak in 1990's accounting for 20% of sales. In this decade they have witnessed a huge decline to less than 5% of sales. I think one of the many reasons is that labels were not really making money on them as the records were being sold at such a knock-down price.

                                    Where albums have not been licensed through record clubs, their soundscan and riaa figures match much more closely. Two examples are the Beatles One - 10m riaa/10m soundscan, and Metallica 14m riaa/14.3m soundscan.

                                    Now the soundscan coverage issue. See my Soundscan Era Thread page four. A full explaination of soundscan workings is given there. Essentially scans are weighted to account for sales not covered. The 3.7m figure for Gold is not a "pure" figure of exactly 3.7m scans. Rather it is a composite based on weighted figures.

                                    Finally, on my USA All Time Best Selling Thread, I worked on an estimate for Abba's US album sales. Looking at the certifications/chart performance of their whole US catalogue I arrived at an all time figure of 18m albums to date.
                                    See Page One of my threads for all updates

                                    Comment


                                    • #48
                                      Hello,
                                      No one is trying to say that ABBA - or anyone else - are the Best Group or Act. Or that they are better than anyone else. We all have our own tastes in Music. It is just that ABBA's Sales are forever being UNDERestimated, (by many people), as much as their Record Company OVERestimates them.

                                      Also, johnnyboy estimates 8 Million Album Sales for ABBA in Germany, but, I would say it is more than that. They have had 15 Top 10 Albums there, to only 9 Top 10 Albums in the UK - and more Chart Albums, (outside the Top 10), in Germany, too.

                                      In Britain, 'The Defintive Collection' Album Peaked at Number 17, and only spent 8 Weeks on the Chart. In Germany, it made Number 14, but spent a massive 96 Weeks, (so far), on the Chart.

                                      Benny & Bjorn have said that ABBA got their, (over all), biggest total Sales from Germany.

                                      I think 8 Million German Album Sales for them is just too low.

                                      I know that the German Record Market is only about the 5th Biggest in the World now, but in ABBA's day, it was 3rd - Britain was 4th. The USA was 1st, and Japan 2nd. They remain 1st, and 2nd, but Britain is now 3rd, and France is 4th - Germany has dropped to 5th, as I said.

                                      Also, I saw nelson's Global estimates for the Sales of ABBA 'Gold' elsewhere, and he gave it less than 15 Million Sales.

                                      In fact, numerous sources say 25 Million Sales, for it now, and it carries on selling around the Globe - Year in Year out - although, (of course), not as many Sales as it once had. They are drastically reduced now. But, it still sells....

                                      The Beatles

                                      I have checked, and The Beatles sold over 20 Million British Singles - but have NO SALES AWARDS FOR ANY OF THEM.

                                      Sales Awards did not begin in the UK until April 1973. (Indeed, NONE of The Beatles 1963 to 1970 Albums have UK Sales Awards either).

                                      Yet, nelson uses only Sales Awards to work out Global and National Sales. By his criteria The Beatles sold ZERO UK Singles, and ZERO UK 1963 to 1970 Albums, as they got no Awards! (This is the LOGICAL outcome of nelson's methods, if he were to apply them to The Beatles).

                                      After all, he ignores the Sales of 18 of ABBA's 21 German Top 10 Singles, because only 3 of them got Awards - for 500,000 copies sold - so, he only counts those 3.

                                      It really is distorted, and inaccurate to use Sales Awards to work out how big an Act was.

                                      You can end up making Elvis, The Beatles, and ABBA, look far, far less big than they really were.....

                                      I like ABBA best, but 100% accept that The Beatles were bigger. Unfortunately, nelson's methods can make both groups seem rather less successful than was the case.

                                      THE 'Q' LIST

                                      I saw the 'Q' Magazine List that had ABBA as only the 27th Most Successful World Group ever.

                                      The List was stupid. It was based only on UK and USA, (combined), Sales of each Group's Biggest ALBUM - just the one. THEN they gave each Act Points for the biggest Gig/Concert they ever held.

                                      Oasis, (for example), got huge Points for that, because they once sold out 2 Gigs at Knebworth Park - 250,000 people saw them over all.

                                      Well, you really cannot compare an Act like ABBA and Oasis on that basis. ABBA never TRIED to play HUGE Stadiums, or UK Outdoor Festivals - but, they had 3.5 Million Ticket requests for their Royal Albert Hall Concerts - 2 Nights - in early 1977, and it held less than 12,000 people.

                                      They could have filled Knebworth Park 28 times with those 1977 UK people who wanted to see them - 28 times 125,000 is 3.5 Million people.....

                                      In fact, I believe that ABBA never actually held a Gig that had more than 20,000 to 30,000 people at it - Australian Tour, 1977.

                                      As such, 'Q' was silly to judge how big ABBA were on things like biggest Gigs, when they never tried to hold huge ones, (but could have). Or, their biggest USA/UK, combined, Album Sale, when ABBA were never huge in the USA.

                                      The 'Q' List was the most pointless:, 'All Time Group' Table that I have ever seen.

                                      ABBA have certainly been far, far bigger than Oasis Globally, but not with the 2 criteria that 'Q' used. That goes for most of the other Groups whom 'Q' put ahead of ABBA.

                                      In the end - as accurate Sales Information is hard to come by - the best way to judge All Time Global Groups & Acts, is to look at as many Countries Music Charts as possible, and to add up all their Hits, Top 10 Singles and Albums, Number 1's, Weeks At Number 1 etc.

                                      Acts like Coldplay and Oasis would struggle to make the Top 20 - maybe even the Top 30 - of such a List. U2 would not do hugely well with SINGLES, in such a List, as they have not had that many Global Number 1 Singles. They are mainly huge with Albums.

                                      Not that many Acts, have been big, with both Singles & Albums.....

                                      Colin

                                      Comment


                                      • #49
                                        I thought that Q list was v.interesting. The fact is that ABBA didn't play many concerts compared to all those other artists - that's why they only came in at # 27.

                                        But purley on record sales they should be 2nd on that list behind the Beatles. In fact in that issue (from Nov. 2004) Q actually said that ABBA had sold 300M records!

                                        Comment


                                        • #50
                                          Originally posted by johnnyboy
                                          Look mate, I'll try just once more. I wrote to Billboard last Autumn and got that sales figure quote up to that point - last August.
                                          Albums in the US often sell less than their certification suggests(eg Shania Twain's Come on Over is certified for 20 million but only sold 15 million).

                                          Now stop repeating yourseld by saying those figures 'must' be up to '97 only!!!!!

                                          You don't dispute my main points....
                                          Total album sales? If they are 44million in those main countries that constitute 70% of sales then total album sales perhaps of 65million????

                                          I'm a fan too but too many can't debate
                                          I'm not disputing the figure of 3.7M from Soundcan. The fact is that Soundcan only tracked around 65-90% of total album sales from 1993-97.

                                          I never said it 'only' sold 3.7M up to 1997. I said it sold most of this 3.7M figure during this time - which it would have!

                                          Face the facts mate, it's sold around 6M in US to date.

                                          Comment


                                          • #51
                                            edge3 -
                                            The bigger picture is the 350million figure is grossly over the top.



                                            Colin - don't confuse charts with sales. ABBA had fewer million and hald million selling albums in Germany thanan the UK. Germany may have had more sales than the UK in ABBA's day, but that doesn't tell you about the distribution of sales.
                                            The top albums sold more in the UK.

                                            I stick by my claim that ABBA only sold around 56 million in those key markets - UK, US, Germany, Japan, Canada, France andAustralia. And that these markets account for 75% of sales.

                                            Comment


                                            • #52
                                              Colin - I got German sales for Gold wrong . It was platinum x2 not 4. so that is sales of 1 million not 2 million. No other album sold more than a million in Germany.

                                              Comment


                                              • #53
                                                Edge3 - My understanding was that 3.7 million, worth 4 million now i guess, took account book clubs etc.
                                                Actually, Gold's sales in the US have been very steady and it may not have sold most of its copies by 1997.

                                                If Universal can come up with a 350 million figure why can't they break it down by country?Hmmmmmm

                                                Why do journalists just accept this hype?Aren't they meant to be sceptical??????

                                                Comment


                                                • #54
                                                  Originally posted by johnnyboy
                                                  edge3 - you haven't proven Gold sold 6 million in the US.
                                                  Gold has definitely shipped 6 million copies in the US. This is confirmed by an independent team of auditors.

                                                  As I've said before, the 3.7 soundscan figure is approximate since actual scans are put through a mathematical formula to account for sales outside soundscan to produce, what is in effect, an estimate of sales had soundscan coverage been 100%.

                                                  The evidence is that close to 2m copies were also sold through record clubs.

                                                  The album itself continues on its merry way selling 200-400,000 annually and will probably do so forever. Just like Dark Side Of the Moon which sells 500-600,000 year in year out.
                                                  See Page One of my threads for all updates

                                                  Comment


                                                  • #55
                                                    Correction
                                                    In Germany, Gold HAS been certified platinum x4 . The only other million selling ABBA albums in Germany are Arrival and Super Trouper.

                                                    Thanks for comments, Basil. i read a post you gave elsewhere that showed how only a few countries have the vast majority of sales.I agreed with your assertion that many people believe exaggerated claims because they are ignorant about the global distribution of sales - and want to inflate sales figures.

                                                    Let's not have any more quibbles. The fundamentals are that the 350 million figure is so exaggerated ...and my estimates are nearer the truth.

                                                    Comment


                                                    • #56
                                                      I'm upping my German sales to 11 million.

                                                      Uk 15 m
                                                      US 12 m
                                                      Ger 11 m
                                                      Oz 6 m
                                                      Jpn 3 million
                                                      France 3.5m
                                                      canada 3.5m
                                                      These countries account for 75% of sales!

                                                      Comment


                                                      • #57
                                                        Hello,
                                                        johnnyboy, I went to the Official German Sales Site, www.ifpi.de

                                                        They say that, in 2004, 'Gold' got its 4th, (and so far last), German Platinum Award. ('1' by The Beatles is on 5).

                                                        German Sales Awards do not seem to have been around in the 1960's - at least for Singles, as The Beatles have Zero Singles Sales Awards there.

                                                        Looking at the ABBA Album Awards, 3 of their German Albums sold 4 Million copies between them. Therefore, you are saying, that their other 12 Top 10 German Albums only sold 4 Million there between them. (When 'Defintive Collection' alone has an Award there for 500,000 and it never got higher than Number 14....).

                                                        4 Million Sales seems incredibly low for 12 Top 10 Albums, to me - especially in a Market in the Global Top 5. This does not even take into account German Budget ABBA Albums, that are not allowed into the German MAIN Charts due to being low priced - they still sell.

                                                        As regards your estimate of less than 45 Million ABBA Albums sold between the few countries that account for 70% of Sales.

                                                        Well, it is estimated that 'Greatest Hits', (Also called 'The Best Of ABBA'), sold 10 to 12 Million Globally in the 1970's. Add in 25 Million for 'Gold', and we are looking at 35 Million to 37 Million copies sold of just those TWO ABBA Albums.

                                                        It hardly seems likely, that less than 45 Millon accounts for the bulk of their Global Album Sales, then - 70% of them. It is just too low.

                                                        'Arrival' sold 800,000 in Poland alone between 1976 and 1977 - that does not even take into account its Sales elsewhere. (Eastern European Sales are often forgotten about).

                                                        Really, what happens is that, as they did not do very well in the USA, their success elsewhere is often underrated - or regarded as low - due to the USA being THE Global Market.

                                                        Despite this, they did well enough, (cummulatively), elsewhere, to definitely be one of the Global Top 10 Acts - whether you work it out via Chart Sales, or Chart Points.

                                                        On top of this, they have been bigger since the 1990's in the USA than they were when they were together.

                                                        I accidently came across a USA Record Club, (Mail Order), Site several Months ago. I cannot recall which one it was now.

                                                        However, they had 'Gold' in their, 'All Time Sales' List - on well over 800,000 copies bought, via them, through the U.S. Mail.

                                                        That was just ONE Record Club there. These Sales are NOT in the Soundscan Data for it, which only cover USA Store Sales.....

                                                        The 6 USA Platinum Awards for it are justified, by the looks of it.

                                                        The Beatles

                                                        Don't forget, that whilst ABBA look NOT to have sold anything like 350 to 400 Million Records, The Beatles and Elvis - no matter HOW you work it out, have NOT sold 1 Billion Records each, as their Record Company's claim for those 2 Acts.

                                                        What happens, is that when people question ABBA's Sales, other people then start to say they are not even in the Global Top 10 Acts.

                                                        When Beatles and Elvis 1 Billion Sales are questioned, no one, then jumps in, and tries to say those 2 Acts cannot really be in the Global Top 10.

                                                        I have noticed that many ABBA Fans believe the exaggerated Sales figures of 350 Million plus CLAIMED for them. But, so do Non ABBA Fans - many - like to claim that:, 'Oh ABBA were not that big then! They never were big in the USA or Italy. They do not deserve to be regarded as a Top 10 All Time Global Act'.

                                                        In fact, even on 180 Million to 200 Million Sales, ABBA would be a Global Top 10 Act - and I have seen claims of 150 Million for U2, whom no one ever says are not HUGE. (U2 are often called:, 'The Biggest Band In The World' - a status they get despite never being THAT huge with SINGLES Globally. It is based chiefly on Album Sales, for them).

                                                        So, whilst ABBA's Sales are exaggerated, we THEN have the other extreme, where their Sales are given way too low estimates - like nelson, who thinks they sold less than 16 Million Singles Globally, when he admits that 10 Million of those were British - so, they never sold even 6 Millon more Singles in the entire rest of the Globe, according to him.

                                                        It is just as inaccurate, to drastically lower ABBA's Global Sales, as it is to wildly exaggerate them.....

                                                        Let us not also forget that whilst The Beatles sold Millions of Albums in the USA, the R.I.A.A. DOUBLES the Sales of Albums that are Double ones - so:, 'The White Album' etc. are given twice as many USA Sales as they really sold there.

                                                        So, even in the USA - where they were huge - exaggeration of the Sales of SOME Beatles Albums, has happened, due to the way they give out Awards there.

                                                        So - just as with ABBA - there is an exaggeration of true Beatles Sales.....

                                                        Colin

                                                        Comment


                                                        • #58
                                                          Colin - U2, unlike ABBA, have made shed loads from touring.

                                                          ...anyway after again seeing the Q magazine article saying ABBA have sold 300M records worldwide (as of Nov 2004) I certainly trust Q more than a bunch of newspaper journalists who said 350-400M. So I'll stick with 300M...for the moment.

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                                                          • #59
                                                            Hello,
                                                            It is obvious from my 'Posts' johnnyboy, that I, personally am NOT 'quibbling' with you about 350 Million plus ABBA Global Sales.

                                                            I 100% agree with you that it is exaggerated.

                                                            Where we differ is that I think your own estimates for ABBA are too low.

                                                            I am well are that some Countries are big Record Markets and others are medium or sjmall ones.

                                                            However, ABBA had so many Number 1's and Hits - Singles and Albums - in so many of them, that they will definitely have sold more Albums than you think - and Singles too.

                                                            Indeed, I have come across Beatles Fans in the past, who - try as they might - cannot get THEIR Sales to anything like 1 Billion. They get 300 Million to 500 Million Sales, and then they give up - in frustration - that they cannot get close to 1 Billion.

                                                            Exaggeration goes on for The Beatles and Elvis AND ABBA.

                                                            Mariah Carey was recently said - 'Daily Mirror' - to be THE:, 'All Time Biggest Selling (Global) Female Act'. She had just had her 16th USA Number 1 Single. This was more than Madonna has had, so the 'Daily Mirror' said she had outsold every Female Act - ever - on Earth.

                                                            It is laughable, as Mariah has not been anywhere near as big as Madonna outside the USA. She has only had 2 British Number 1 Singles, (10 for Madonna), and has not done as well as Madonna elsewhere either.

                                                            I hear that 70% of the USA Singles Chart is now based on Air Play, so her Sales - to have her 16th Number 1 there - would have been very low.

                                                            For her to then get crowned, 'All Time World Female Act' on THAT basis - well, it is a joke. Madonna has clearly outsold her Globally.....

                                                            This HYPING, of how big an Act is, goes on all the time. It is not just done as regards ABBA, you know.....

                                                            Colin

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                                                            • #60
                                                              Originally posted by johnnyboy
                                                              edge3 - you haven't proven Gold sold 6 million in the US. Even if it had that is only 2 million more than I suggested.
                                                              The bigger picture is the 350million figure is grossly over the top.
                                                              Johnnyboy, I forgot about the sales from the record clubs. Thanks, Basil, for reminding me.

                                                              Also, I agree 350M might be over the top so do you think the recent Q magazine figure of 300M is possible?

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