Queen :: Charts & Sales History

[slightlymad]

Great post as usual Hernan , the only thing i can add is that it was officially stated by EMI in an advert in music week that Queen sold 1,774,991 albums in the UK in 1986 and that Live Magic sold in excess of 300,000 copies that year!!. The Official Queen Fan Club reproduced the advert on one of there magazines front cover, below is a link to that magazine.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2906921741...84.m1423.l2648[/url]

[HUR]

Interesting, Brian. More sales to add to "Bohemian Rhapsody".

1986

I made a mistake here. I estimated "Greatest Hits" and "Live Magic" at 275,000 and 270,000 copies sold respectively during 1986. This is the link I'm referring to: http://www.ukmix.org/forums/viewtopic.p ... start=2725

But these two totals are too high. After further going through the top selling albums of 1986, this is how the positions between 30 and 45 looked like:

1. TRUE BLUE Madonna
2. BROTHERS IN ARMS Dire Straits
3. NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL MUSIC 8 Various
4. GRACELAND Paul Simon
5. WHITNEY HOUSTON Whitney Houston
6. NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL MUSIC 7 Various
7. HUNTING HIGH AND LOW A-Ha
8. A KIND OF MAGIC Queen
9. SILK AND STEEL Five Star
10. REVENGE Eurythmics

30. BE YOURSELF TONIGHT Eurythmics
31. SCOUNDREL DAYS A-Ha
32. COMMUNARDS Communards
33. GO WEST/BANGS AND CRASHES Go West
34. PLEASE Pet Shop Boys
35. GREATEST HITS Queen
36. DIFFERENT LIGHT Bangles
37. LOVE ZONE Billy Ocean
38. LIVE MAGIC Queen
39. RIPTIDE Robert Palmer
40. ISLAND LIFE Grace Jones
41. THE DREAM OF THE BLUE TURTLES Sting
42. SOUTH PACIFIC Kiri Te Kanawa/Jose Carreras/Sarah Vaughan
43. THE BROADWAY ALBUM Barbra Streisand
44. ROCKY IV (OST) Various
45. LUXURY OF LIFE Five Star

Because Sting sold 270,000 albums during 1986, I had assumed that his album "The Dream Of The Blue Turtles" sold that many in that year. But I forgot that he released a live album in July 1986, "Bring On The Night" which sold very well (peaked at number 16 and was certified silver). This leaves fewer sales to "The Dream Of The Blue Turtles", probably around 60,000 or even 70,000 copies less.

Even more, Bangles sold 247,500 units in 1986 and they had already released one album (in 1984) and an EP (in 1982), which means that their "Different Light" album will have sold 230,000 to 240,000 copies, but not more.

What this means for Queen is that "Greatest Hits" sold around 240,000 and "Live Magic" about 220,000 during 1986 (instead of 275,000 and 270,000 as I previously assumed).

Whereas "A Kind Of Magic" sold 670,000 in 1986 (A-Ha's "Hunting High And Low" sold 685,000 copies and Five Star's "Silk and Steel" sold 660,000).

So overall, we have this for that year:

Queen sold 1,463,000 albums, including:

A Kind Of Magic: 670,000
Greatest Hits: 240,000
Live Magic: 225,000

Those three albums sold a combined 1,135,000 copies.

Which leaves 328,000 copies sold for their studio albums. Far more than I would thought myself. Adding 240,000 for "Greatest Hits", we have some 578,000 back catalogue sales altogether.

"The Works" was of course the biggest one. It charted as many as 23 weeks inside the Top 100.

In fact, even Record Mirror claimed that Queen had 'strong catalogue sales'.

So for the whole of 1984 to 1990 period, this is what they sold with their back catalogue in the UK, based on the numbers I posted three months ago. Obviously, there is small marging for error in some years, but I think these sales numbers are accurate:

Studio and live albums:

1984 – 200,000
1985 – 155,000
1986 – 328,000
1987 – 228,000
1988 – 238,000
1989 – 299,000
1990 – 180,000

Total: 1,628,000

Greatest Hits:

1984 – 180,000
1985 – 225,000
1986 – 240,000
1987 – 170,000
1988 – 100,000
1989 – 75,000
1990 – 75,000

Total: 1,065,000

Grand total: 2,693,000

[brian05]

Did you know that there was a rare mis-pressing of Cliff Richard's We don't talk anymore (EMI 2975) in 1979 which had Bohemian Rhapsody on the B-side?
It is worth a fortune if anyone comes across it!

[HUR]

Netherlands

I found the following chart on an old Google's group. This is from January 1992, with "Bohemian Rhapsody" charting at number two and listed with a platinum award.

1 1 DON'T LET THE SUN GO DOWN ON ME - george michael & elton john (Gold)
2 2 BOHEMIAN RHAPSODY/THESE ARE THE DAYS OF OUR LIVES - queen (Platinum)
3 4 JUSTIFIED AND ANCIENT - the klf
4 3 SMELLS LIKE TEEN SPIRIT - nirvana
5 6 RIDE LIKE THE WIND - east side beat
6 5 YOU SHOWED ME - salt 'n' pepa
7 7 COLOUR OF LOVE - snap
8 13 TIME STOOD STILL - bad english feat. john waite
9 10 IF YOU GO AWAY - new kids on the block
10 20 O FORTUNA - fortuna and satenig (B?)

That means the reissue of "Bohemian Rhapsody" was on 75,000 copies shipped (what was required for a single to reach a platinum award) during those days.

From Billboard, in June 1977:

"Queen Net Awards. ROTTERDAM –During a visit to Holland, the four members of U.K. group Queen, and its manager John Reid, each received two platinum and two gold disks. The platinum was for the albums 'A Night At The Opera' and 'A Day At The Races', and the gold for the 'Sheer Heart Attack' album and the single 'Bohemian Rhapsody'. The awards were made at a party after a Queen show in a packed Ahoy Hall there. The group also received the Dutch Top 40 award for the chart-topping single 'Somebody To Love'". (Billboard, june 1977)

The original single (released in 1975) was given a gold award, for sales of 100,000 copies (it would have needed to sell 250,000 in order to qualify for a platinum). Plus several other awards:

Sheer Heart Attack Gold (50,000)
A Night At The Opera Platinum (100,000)
A Day At The Races Platinum (100,000)

Bohemian Rhapsody Gold (100,000)
Bohemian Rhapsody/ These Are The Days Of Our Lives Platinum (75,000)

So combined all, it looks like "Bohemian Rhapsody" sold 175,000 copies in Netherlands, enough for it to be one of the best selling singles ever in that country. With downloads, it would be close to reaching 200,000 sales altogether.

Let's remember that before 1996, there were no multiple platinum plaques shown in the NVPL database.

Some weekly chart positions from the Dutch Hitparade:

Bohemian Rhapsody
20.12.1975: 14
03.01.1976: 2
10.01.1976: 1
17.01.1976: 1
24.01.1976: 1
31.01.1976: 2
07.02.1976: 2
14.02.1976: 4
21.02.1976: 13
28.02.1976: 21
14.12.1991: 51
21.12.1991: 17
28.01.1991: No chart this week
04.01.1992: 1
11.01.1992: 1
18.01.1992: 2
25.01.1992: 2
01.02.1992: 3
08.02.1992: 5
15.02.1992: 7
22.02.1992: 14
29.02.1992: 22
07.03.1992: 33
14.03.1992: 39
21.03.1992: 52
28.03.1992: 77

Sheer Heart Attack
11.01.1975: 18
18.01.1975: 13
25.01.1975: 7
01.02.1975: 7
08.02.1975: 12
15.02.1975: 12
22.02.1975: 12
01.03.1975: 13
08.03.1975: 19
15.03.1975: 19
22.03.1975: 19

A Night At The Opera
20.12.1975: N 7.
27.12.1975: 7.
03.01.1976: 2.
10.01.1976: 1.
17.01.1976: 1.
24.01.1976: 1.
31.01.1976: 1.
07.02.1976: 1.
14.02.1976: 1.
21.02.1976: 1.
28.02.1976: 1.
06.03.1976: 3.
13.03.1976: 2.
20.03.1976: 7.
27.03.1976: 4.
03.04.1976: 6.
10.04.1976: 10.
21.12.1991: R 96.
04.01.1992: 73.
11.01.1992: 59.
18.01.1992: 57.
25.01.1992: 54.
01.02.1992: 64.
08.02.1992: 74.
15.02.1992: 93.

A Day At The Races
25.12.1976: N 8.
01.01.1977: 5.
08.01.1977: 3.
15.01.1977: 1.
22.01.1977: 1.
29.01.1977: 1.
05.02.1977: 1.
12.02.1977: 1.
19.02.1977: 2.
26.02.1977: 4.
05.03.1977: 6.
12.03.1977: 10.
19.03.1977: 13.
26.03.1977: 14.
02.04.1977: 14.

A curiosity with "Sheer Heart Attack". Without Various Artists albums, it would have reached number 3:

01.02.1975:
1 Various Artists Music Power [1975]
2 Various Artists Black Music
3 Nana Mouskouri Nana's Book Of Songs
4 Robert Long Vroeger of later
5 Various Artists Story presenteert: Het hele jaar Carnaval
6 Various Artists Alle 11 goed gek! en 2 nσg gekker! Deel 3
7 Queen Sheer Heart Attack
8 Soundtrack / Ennio Morricone Once Upon A Time In The West
9 George Baker Selection 5 jaar hits
10 Willy Alberti & Johnny Jordaan Jeugdherinneringen (Liedjes die we vroeger samen zongen)

As in UK, "Bohemian Rhapsody" was number one twice, in 1976 and in 1992. Including 3 weeks in 1976 and 2 in 1992, for a combined 5 weeks at the summit.

Without counting the infamous missing week (on December 28 1991), where it would possibly have reached number one.

Overall, "Bohemian Rhapsody" spent 14 weeks in the Top 10.

[slightlymad]

UK Top 200 Albums of 2011

167 - 76,200 - Queen - Greatest Hits - Unknown - 07/11/81 - 25

[loris39]

These are the figures published by the German version of Wikipedia about the three compilations "Deep Cuts".

Deep Cuts 95,000 copies worldwide
Deep Cuts II 70,000 copies worldwide
Deep Cuts III 85,000 copies worldwide.


Source:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen/Diskografie#Alben

[johnnyboy]

How does the OCC get 5.85m sales for Greatest Hits? It does not deal with music club sales.

We know that the Platinum Collection - and GH/GHII were used. But instead of sales being equally divided - they could be divided into proportion of sales the individual albums reached.

The Platinum Collection
instead of 600,000 each could be
Greatest Hits - 1,050,000
Greatest Hits II - 650,000
Greatest Hits III- 100,000

Greatest Hits/Greatest Hits II
Greatest Hits 100,000
Greatest Hits II - 65,000

Thus, sales for Greatest Hits could be:
4,700,000 - retail
1,050,000 - Platinum Collection proportion
100,000 - GH/GHII proportion

5,850,000. Roughly speaking. Seems convincing, doesn't it?

[loris39]

If it was right that every album sold 30,000 copies - like A Night At The Opera - their sales would be bigger than the figures we actually estimate. In Italy, Queen-boom started after 1991 - when also the studio albums sold very well - so A Night At The Opera and above all A Day At The Races could be now at 200,000 copies, A Day At The Races maybe more, because it was at 100,000 copies in 1977.

The schedule regarding The Miracle is very interesting. Even if this album didn't obtain the number 1, at the end of 1989 it was Platinum thanks to 200,000 copies sold. So I think that from 1989 to 2012, the album has accumulated about 100/150,000 copies, so now it could be at 300/350,000 copies.

[HUR]

Italy

In 1977:

"…La riprova potrebbero darla i Queen, un gruppo rock inglese che in Italia vendeva al massimo trentamila copie per ogni disco e che in poche poche settimane ha raggiunto quota centomila quando il pezzo 'Somebody to love' era la sigla del ciclo cinematografico dedicato a Humphrey Bogart" (L'espresso, 1979).

It reads that because of the use of "Somebody To Love" on a television show, Queen reached 100,000 copies with one of their albums. Which would have been "A Day At The Races" arguably.

It further states that before that, they were only selling 30,000 copies per album. So that is what "A Night At The Opera" may have done by early 1977. Of course, things have changed 35 years after that.

In December 1989, the following was written on a Billboard article:

"...and platinum status (200,000) was reached by Rick Astley, Joe Cocker, Terence Trent D'Arby, the Eurythmics, Paul McCartney, Pet Shop Boys, Queen, Rolling Stones, Spandau Ballet, Tears For Fears and Tanita Tikaram. Nex in the big-seller brigade: Edie Brickwell, Cure, Guns 'N Roses, Nick Kamen, Swing Out Sister and Barry White" (Billboard, 1989).

So we have:

The Miracle – more than 200,000 copies sold in Italy.

These are its weekly chart positions for anyone interested:

The Miracle
27.05.1989: 8
03.06.1989: 4
10.06.1989: 3
17.06.1989: 5
24.06.1989: 4
01.07.1989: 7
08.07.1989: 8
15.07.1989: 8
22.07.1989: 8
29.07.1989: 9
05.08.1989: 10
12.08.1989: 9
19.08.1989: 8
26.08.1989: 14
02.09.1989: 12
09.09.1989: 10
16.09.1989: 10
23.09.1989: 12
30.09.1989: 13
07.10.1989: 18
14.10.1989: 22
21.10.1989: 23

Even though it failed to reach number one (blame it on Zucchero and Madonna, the biggest acts then), "The Miracle" still was one of the best selling albums of 1989 in Italy.

[johnnyboy]

The latest OCC chart up to 24/03/12

Below is the official top 10 of all time in the UK (to 24 March 2012). It is,controversial.

01 GREATEST HITS - QUEEN - 5,865,000 (1981)
02 SGT PEPPER'S LONELY HEARTS CLUB BAND - THE BEATLES - 5,046,000 (1967) 03 GOLD: GREATEST HITS - ABBA - 4,994,000 (1992)
04 WHAT'S THE STORY MORNING GLORY - OASIS 4,521,000 (1995)
05 THRILLER - MICHAEL JACKSON - 4,273,000 (1982)
06 21 ADELE - 4,165,000 (2011)
07 BROTHERS IN ARMS - DIRE STRAITS - 4,155,000 (1985)
08 THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON - PINK FLOYD - 4,117,000 (1973)
09 BAD - MICHAEL JACKSON - 3,961,000 (1987)
10 GREATEST HITS II - QUEEN - 3,888,000 (1991)

The OCC only deals with retail figures not shipments and it doesn't have music club sales information.It has compiled charts since 1994. All Time Charts have been contracted out to Alan Jones of Music Week and colleagues.

Both Queen albums include a third of the sales of The Platinum Collection and half from the twin-set Greatest Hits/Greatest Hits 2 - about 700,000 sales for each album.

[loris39]

This is a good week for Queen in the USA.

Greatest Hits is #108 in the Top-200 so its sales are of 5,392 copies. Beginning from the start of 2012, this album has sold 22,000 copies.

Bohemian Rhapsody this week has sold 5,512 downloaded copies and this version has sold 50,000 downloaded copies from the start of 2012. The total is more than 2,700,000 downloaded copies, maybe 2,750,000.

We Will Rock You has sold 5,090 downloaded copies and from the beginning of the year, this version has been downloaded for 48,000 times. I think the total could be close to 2,400,000.

Under Pressure, this week, has been downloaded for 4,979 times and from the beginning of the year has sold 44,500 digital downloads.

The total for these three digital singles is 142,500 copies.

[zeus555]

As regards UK Shipments, yesterday, The BPI gave Adele's
'21' a 15th Platinum Award.

It is now the UK's 'Most Certified Album'.

However, if every huge Album got the UK Platinum Awards
that it is entitled to, (for Shipments), then 'Greatest Hits',
by Queen', should have about 19 or 20, 'Sgt Pepper....',
by The Beatles, should have about 17, & 'Gold', by ABBA,
should have 16 or 17 etc..

LINK:,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_be ... ed_Kingdom

Zeus555

[Dane]

thebigham:

This is the Platinum Collection

There is something not very clear here...

The "Platinum Collection" was already certified Platinum in May of 2005... (release date: september 2001).

I don't understand why now it is called "PC Vol.1-3" and it was awarded again Gold and Platinum (besides 2xP), and the release date of this one is september 2002...

Is it a RIAA mistake?
The logical certification would be indeed a 2xP for "TPC" (670k for a triple album), in accordance with its soundscan figure of 680k by september 2009.

So maybe the Gold and Platinum of this month certification is indeed an error?

Strange indeed...

[Edu]

thebigham:

This is the Platinum Collection

There is something not very clear here...

The "Platinum Collection" was already certified Platinum in May of 2005... (release date: september 2001).

I don't understand why now it is called "PC Vol.1-3" and it was awarded again Gold and Platinum (besides 2xP), and the release date of this one is september 2002...

Is it a RIAA mistake?
The logical certification would be indeed a 2xP for "TPC" (670k for a triple album), in accordance with its soundscan figure of 680k by september 2009.

So maybe the Gold and Platinum of this month certification is indeed an error?

[HUR]

Plus Queen's Total 'Download' Sales since The OCC
began monitoring them. (Which I think was in September 2004).
Zeus555

This may have been posted before.

What have been Queen's download singles sales for each year, 2004 to 2011, if known.

The Beatles have done 800,000 in 1 year. Have Queen achieved this, or even better?

Hello Brian,

I was looking at some old posts and I found this one.

According to the Official Chart Company, Queen sold 2,090,000 digital downlods in the UK from 2004 to early 2011, including 285,000 units in 2010 alone. I'm not sure if that was the right figure (as it sounds like a lot, to be honest), but, assuming they sold a similar total during 2011, they should now be on about 2,400,000 copies by now.

This week in Spain:

26.02.2012

73 Platinum Collection
83 A Night At The Opera
96 Greatest Hits

Last week:

19.02.2012

67 Platinum Collection
76 Greatest Hits II
77 Greatest Hits
78 A Night At The Opera

[thebigham]

^This is the Platinum Collection:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00006JIA4/ref=tsm_1_fb_lk

Queen's RIAA total is now 34.5xp.

[thebigham]

New from the RIAA website:

Queen, Platinum Collection Vol 1-3 2xp

[GUS]

New from the RIAA website:

Queen, Platinum Collection Vol 1-3 2xp

[HUR]

Japan

I don't think I posted this, but here are all Queen's Oricon sales during 2011:

Innuendo
2011/10/03 # 90 ( 1,327 )

Total: 1,327

A Night at the Opera
2011/03/28 # 73 ( 1,143 )
2011/04/04 # 117 ( 755 )
2011/04/11 # 293 ( 343 )
2011/04/18 # 292 ( 369 )

Total: 2,610

A Kind of Magic
2011/10/03 # 104 ( 1,221 )

Total: 1,221

Queen II
2011/03/28 # 82 ( 1,029 )
2011/04/04 # 131 ( 692 )

Total: 1,721

Greatest Hits
2011/01/24 # 26 ( 4,180 )
2011/01/31 # 39 ( 2,745 )
2011/02/07 # 80 ( 1,590 )
2011/02/14 # 89 ( 1,138 )
2011/02/21 # 100 ( 966 )
2011/02/28 # 138 ( 737 )
2011/03/07 # 188 ( 681 )
2011/03/14 # 146 ( 768 )
2011/03/21 # 192 ( 479 )
2011/03/28 # 227 ( 358 )
2011/04/04 # 229 ( 427 )
2011/04/11 # 119 ( 722 )
2011/04/18 # 283 ( 380 )
2011/07/11 # 224 ( 517 )
2011/07/18 # 196 ( 554 )
2011/07/25 # 250 ( 412 )
2011/10/10 # 239 ( 445 )

Total: 17,099

Greatest Hits II
2011/01/24 # 34 ( 3,317 )
2011/01/31 # 57 ( 2,039 )
2011/02/07 # 94 ( 1,290 )
2011/02/14 # 110 ( 919 )
2011/02/21 # 118 ( 816 )
2011/02/28 # 180 ( 584 )
2011/03/07 # 224 ( 564 )
2011/03/14 # 185 ( 595 )
2011/03/21 # 237 ( 402 )
2011/03/28 # 291 ( 275 )
2011/04/11 # 204 ( 460 )
2011/06/13 # 293 ( 358 )

Total: 11,619

The Game
2011/07/04 # 95 ( 1,217 )
2011/07/11 # 209 ( 566 )

Total: 1,783

The Miracle
2011/10/03 # 102 ( 1,233 )

Total: 1,233

The Works
2011/10/03 # 93 ( 1,310 )

Total: 1,310

Sheer Heart Attack
2011/03/28 # 89 ( 976 )
2011/04/04 # 141 ( 652 )

Total: 1,628

Jazz
2011/07/04 # 90 ( 1,311 )
2011/07/11 # 194 ( 615 )

Total: 1,926

Deep Cuts 1977-1982
2011/07/18 # 293 ( 358 )

Total: 358

The Platinum Collection
2011/07/04 # 120 ( 1,036 )
2011/07/11 # 213 ( 536 )

Total: 1,572

Flash Gordon
2011/07/04 # 158 ( 833 )

Total: 833

Hot Space
2011/07/04 # 131 ( 968 )

Total: 968

Made in Heaven
2011/10/03 # 98 ( 1,265 )

Total: 1,265

A Day at the Races
2011/03/28 # 90 ( 936 )
2011/04/04 # 146 ( 631 )

Total: 1,567

News of the World
2011/07/04 # 85 ( 1,389 )
2011/07/11 # 168 ( 700 )

Total: 2,089

Queen
2011/03/28 # 87 ( 998 )
2011/04/04 # 144 ( 642 )

Total: 1,640

I think it is a total of 54,990 units while inside the Top 300. But perhaps about 100,000 copies altogether counting the whole year.

South Korea

And these were the best selling Western album in South Korea:

#5 Jason Mraz - We Sing. We Dance. We Steal Things 11,872
#10 Queen - Greatest Hits I (2011 Remaster) 7,148
#11 Sarah Brightman - Diva : The Singles Collection 6,475
#13 The Beatles - 1 (Remastered) 6,105
#14 Coldplay - Mylo Xyloto 6,078
#19 The Beatles - 1 5,754
#20 Avril Lavigne - Goodbye Lullaby (Deluxe Version) 5,702
#22 Eagles - Hell Freezes Over 5,540
#24 Bruno Mars - Doo-Wops & Hooligans 5,052
#25 Avril Lavigne - Goodbye Lullaby 4,540
#28 Lady Gaga - Born This Way (International Special) 4,382
#30 Radiohead - The King of Limbs 4,177
#33 Queen - Greatest Hits II (2011 Remastered) 3,916
#38 Maroon 5 - Hands All Over (Korea Tour Edition) 3,612
#39 Michael Jackson - King Of Pop (Korean Limited Edition) 3,523

Similar to what I posted a month ago. "Greatest Hits II" was on 3,479 units by August, and kept selling during the last quarter to reach 3,916. In total, I think Queen sold 25,000 physical albums in 2011. I think, even if I could be wrong, that they were the best selling foreign album act of the year.

[slightlymad]

The Platinum Collection has just be certified double platinum in US...

http://queenonline.com/en/news-archive/ ... illion-us/

I presume this means it has now sold 666,667 copies in the USA not the 2,000,000 it states in the article as the USA certifies per disc in the set.

[trueno]

The Platinum Collection has just be certified double platinum in US...

http://queenonline.com/en/news-archive/ ... illion-us/

[johnnyboy]

If we exclude the Platinum Collection and GH/GH2 about 5.2m sales.

[zeus555]

The UK's Top 10 Best Selling Albums (Up-Date)

(To W/E 3rd March 2012 Inclusive)

01 GREATEST HITS – QUEEN (5,863,000)
02 SGT PEPPER'S LONELY HEARTS CLUB BAND – THE BEATLES (5,044,000)
03 GOLD: GREATEST HITS – ABBA (4,989,000)
04 WHAT'S THE STORY MORNING GLORY – OASIS (4,517,000)
05 THRILLER - MICHAEL JACKSON (4,248,000)
06 BROTHERS IN ARMS - DIRE STRAITS (4,152,000)
07 THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON - PINK FLOYD (4,114,000)
08 21 – ADELE (4,020,000)
09 BAD - MICHAEL JACKSON (3,959,000)
10 GREATEST HITS II – QUEEN (3,887,000)

© 2012 THE OFFICIAL CHARTS COMPANY.

Zeus555

[slightlymad]

Big Queen Announcement tonight at 8pm UK time

Rumour has it Queen will headline the Sonisphere Festival at Knebworth Park with Adam Lambert as guest vocalist

[johnnyboy]

That's a rubbish link. From Wikipedia. Record claims are just made up figures - and certs very limited of course.