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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I also asked Dave Taylor about the subject of record stores supplying sales data to more than than one music paper and he too said they did not. He never explained how he knew this though. But somehow both he and Alan had lots of inside information on subjects like this.
    I don't really think it matters though, if the same info was given to more than one paper the info still remains the same irregardless and wouldn't change the outcome.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Have corrected that misprint Woz. Thanks.

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  • Woz1234
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 19th December 1964.

    Black Girl - Herman's Hermits
    Should've that been by The Four Pennies

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

    Also, I specifically asked Alan a good while back did a record shop report to multiple music paper charts, and he said NO they did not...
    For Alan to know that he would have to had a complete list of all the Record Shops that supplied information to all the chart compilers. I think that very unlikely. If he had that he would have known things like area coverage and a reasonably accurate list of the coverage of the papers. From what I have seen he's very sketchy on the amount of shops taking part in the NME one.
    It's likely that BMRB might have agreements in place for retailers not to supply information to other chart compilers because of payment reasons. Indeed if any chart compiler did pay the shops to supply any lists then you could well expect an agreement to be specified of not doing the same.
    But personally, unless someone can say that the shops were being paid to supply information to each chart compiler. With no fee, if I was a record shop owner back then I would have sent the information to whoever wanted it. Or I would not have sent it all.
    Unless you got paid to supply the information, or got a discount in the paper for adds. What would be the motivation for the shops to take part?
    Later on the record companies found out who was taking part and made certain that the shops got paid for sending in lists of their records. Even then lots of London stores were the ones taking part.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    In Alan Smith's threads here, he specifically says record dealers reporting to RR supplied them with a Top 50 list every week. He also at times mentions how long a list the other dealers were supplying to the other charts, though that info is not consistently given, even when the charts expanded their number of positions. I emailed Alan about this recently, he hasn't yet replied. It would be good to find this out, as you would indeed get different results in averaging out Top 50 lists vs. Top 20 lists.

    Also, I specifically asked Alan a good while back did a record shop report to multiple music paper charts, and he said NO they did not...

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 19th December 1964.
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 19th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week Title and Artist Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    1 1 I Feel Fine - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    2 2 I'm Gonna Be Strong - Gene Pitney 2 2 2 2 4 18245
    4 3 Downtown - Petula Clark 3 3 3 3 2 17865
    5 4 Walk Tall - Val Doonican 4 5 4 4 3 17030
    3 5 Little Red Rooster - The Rolling Stones 5 4 5 5 5 16710
    9 6 I Understand - Freddie and The Dreamers 6 6 7 6 7 15540
    15 7 No Arms Can Ever Hold You - The Bachelors 7 8 6 7 8 15205
    6 8 Pretty Paper - Roy Orbison 8 9 8 8 6 14575
    16 9 I Could Easily Fall - Cliff Richard 9 10 9 12 9 13470
    12 10 A Message To Martha - Adam Faith 10 12 10 9 12 12865
    24 11 Somewhere - P J Proby 11 7 13 10 14 12845
    7 12 Baby Love - The Supremes 12 13 11 11 10 12385
    22 13 Blue Christmas - Elvis Presley 13 11 14 13 13 11580
    10 14 There's A Heartache Following Me - Jim Reeves 14 16 12 14 11 11150
    19 15 Terry - Twinkle 15 15 15 17 15 9960
    8 16 All Day And All Of The Night - The Kinks 16 18 16 15 16 9225
    29 17 Girl Don't Come - Sandie Shaw 17 17 17 16 18 8905
    21 18 Genie With The Light Brown Lamp - The Shadows 18 19 21 18 21 7050
    13 19 Losing You - Dusty Springfield 19 22 20 21 17 6740
    27 20 What Have They Done To The Rain - The Searchers 20 19 23 20 19 6520
    11 21 Um Um Um Um Um Um - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders 22 21 19 23 24 6395
    NEW 22 Yeh Yeh - Georgie Fame and The Blue Flames 21 14 27 19 26 6025
    14 23 He's In Town - The Rockin' Berries 23 25 18 24 23 5830
    18 24 Walk Away - Matt Monro 25 26 22 25 22 4615
    23 25 Show Me Girl - Herman's Hermits 26 26 26 20 2685
    20 26 Tokyo Melody - Helmut Zacharias 27 24 25 2260
    17 27 Don't Bring Me Down - The Pretty Things 28 25 29 28 1955
    NEW 28 Go Now - The Moody Blues 29 23 30 1700
    NEW 29 Like A Child - Julie Rogers 30 27 27 1200
    NEW 30 Cast Your Fate To The Wind - Sounds Orchestral 28 28 900
    Beatles For Sale (LP) - The Beatles 24 24 22 2300
    Black Girl - The Four Pennies 28 750
    Oh Pretty Woman - Roy Orbison 29 30 585
    The Wedding - Julie Rogers 30 29 420
    Christmas Will Be Just Another Lonely Day - Brenda Lee 29 400
    Sha La La - Manfred Mann 27 340
    Ferry Cross The Mersey - Gerry and The Pacemakers 30 200
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Sat July 11, 2020, 18:40.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I can tell you now Graham having compiled all the December charts that it doesn't appear in any chart. What we don't know is whether stores supplied a list of 10, 20, 30, or whatever of their best selling records to the music papers who of course just allocated points to them.

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Unlike now Brain I don't think the record companies back then co-ordinated releases to prevent a clash with other major artists. It doesn't happen again between them after 1964.
    Record Companies were dived between labels and sub labels. The EMI group being the best known included Parlophone, Columbia, MGM, Motown and others. Then there was Decca and Philips, with their subsidiaries.
    The A&R people of each label would listen to the latests songs that came out of the song publishers. The would assign songs to the acts under their label. Since the A&R men were in direct competition with each other even under the same parent company they would release records all at the same time. Up to around 1963 the old system of records released at the start of each month, possibly a week later, was still in place. By 1964 records should have been coming out on a Friday each week. So it was possible to stagger the release of records, thus preventing clashes. Of course before that if you released a record of a top song a month late, then the other labels or your company could have got a bigger seller with the thing you had just released.
    The Beatles were of course doing their own songs and this would lead to artists writing and singing their own songs. Rather than ones coming out of Tin Pan Alley.
    Since the Rolling Stones man Andrew Loog Oldham was connected with the Beatles manager, they had an agreement not to set the same release date for the two acts records. So there was no clashes after 1964 with the two acts.
    What the Beatles didn't release was of course food for the acts that didn't do their own songs. And many Beatles songs made it big on the back of the old system that they were changing forever.

    Now on how accurate the 60's charts were. At the end of the day they were all samples. Often sampling the same shops. As we saw with the Sun asking 250 shops, but getting 71 back. Not all shops would take part. Some of the biggest retailers would not give out sales information as it was like telling the competition your business.
    I suspect that they may have been getting paid to supply the information. They were when BMRB took over. So if you look at the charts they are nearly all pretty close to each other, even the ones with bigger samples. Even RR is often a few ahead or a few behind MM on lots of records.
    Where it all goes wrong is of course on the records that don't fit the sample. Often quite well known, even these days, records that would have sold but not enough in the samples. Put all 8,000 shops in the mix and although all the records appear in the top 30 of these chart sample all of a sudden a record well appear that's not in any or maybe on Record Retailers breakers list.
    For example in the last Real Chart for December 1964, at number 3 is Ruby & The Romantics - When you're young and in love. And I wait in an anticipation to see if will appear in this list.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Unlike now Brain I don't think the record companies back then co-ordinated releases to prevent a clash with other major artists. It doesn't happen again between them after 1964.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Melody Maker from July 1960 and throughout the sixties were without doubt using the biggest sample of all the papers though Splodg. I researched this before starting this project. From July 60 MM were determined to have the best chart based on the biggest sample which was also the only one to include Northern Ireland. Plus Alan Smith is an acknowledged authority due to his extensive knowledge and contacts in the business .
    This was also borne out in earlier in communications I still have from Dave Taylor who himself had contacts including Derek Chinnery who compiled , in a fashion, the BBC chart.
    So I believe , at this time period of compilation that 250 for MM, 200 for NME, 100 for Disc, and 85 for RR is not that far out.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    I seem to recall that the charts in the Tuesday editions of the Daily Mirror (MM) and Daily Sketch (NME) had the same positions as those that appeared in the MM's and NME's own publications. If so, there was a hard deadline of Monday evening by which those two charts (or at least the Top 20 carried in the newspapers) needed to be compiled.

    I see no reason to disbelieve The Sun's account of what the compilers told them was their sample. NME's "up to 300" seems deliberately vague. Do they mean they have a pool of 300 like MM and phone around as many as they can? The tied positions and enormous amount of work involved in phoning before they can do the tabulation (compared with MM opening envelopes) suggests to me that they sampled a lot less.

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    It's interesting that on the average chart, twice a new entry from The Beatles has prevented The Rolling Stones from reaching No.1 so far. I wonder how many times this kind of thing will happen on the average chart (or did happen on the other charts for that matter) i.e. where the same artist prevents the same different artist from reaching No.1.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I think all of us who were a 'child of the sixties' are engrossed in the mystery of the charts back then. As a ten year old in 1964 I took the BBC charts as gospel because I saw them on TOTP, yet I bought the NME and just accepted they had their own chart too as with MM whose chart I saw in the daily newspapers.
    It was only as I got older I began to question why they all differed slightly and this puzzled me.

    We will never know the true weekly sales figures from that era, they are gone forever, the best we have now is believing in each chart as being representative of the time in its own way and by further combining them into one average chart brings them all together under one umbrella yet still acknowledges each as an individual participant.

    That is what I'm striving to achieve here, compiling that average chart and finding the centre ground yet also displaying each papers proud place in its formulation. The 'chart of charts' .

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Ha, we've had this conversation before, Robbie. Someone else had logged into Dave's account at either Popscene or Buzzjack, and was making edits to Dave's earlier posts. Maybe 2 years ago?

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  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    I asked Alan Smith about the different chart sampling periods, and Alan was Adam Adamant in firmly stating that all charts used a Monday thru Saturday period. They compiled their average chart results on different days though, thus the main reason why various charts couldn't get their data into the BBC on time, and if they were late they weren't included in the average. Alan of course talked to all the chart compilers and got this info right from the horses' mouths.

    On the other hand, I seem to recall Dave Taylor saying the sampling periods may have been different. Another chap Brian Hankin posted on the Haven forum in 2011 that MM, Disc, and (RR after July 1967) all used Monday thru Saturday, but NME, RM, and early RR were all different from that, and different from each other, and that there were thus 4 different sampling periods used among the 5 charts !!

    When I asked Alan (a year ago) about what Brian had posted, Alan said "it's all codswallop. All chart compilers used Monday to Saturday sales period in that order!"
    There was some belief among a handful of posters at Haven that Brian Hankin may have been Dave Taylor*. At the very least the two knew each other and Brian once posted information provided by Dave because Dave (for some reason) didn't want to sign up for Haven.

    *Brian Hankin was last seen at Haven on 14 January 2020 (while logged in) though his last post was on 20 May 2013. As Dave died in 2014 it would suggest they were different posters but that Brian was simply posting on Dave's behalf at Haven.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Monday to Saturday makes sense from a compilation of chart perspective. You print on, day, Thursday for delivery to shops on Friday so your issue is ready Wednesday. That means you need the chart Wednesday. Assume a day to compile so that means you need the data on Monday. No Sunday shops at that point so the last sale would be Saturday.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I asked Alan Smith about the different chart sampling periods, and Alan was Adam Adamant in firmly stating that all charts used a Monday thru Saturday period. They compiled their average chart results on different days though, thus the main reason why various charts couldn't get their data into the BBC on time, and if they were late they weren't included in the average. Alan of course talked to all the chart compilers and got this info right from the horses' mouths.

    On the other hand, I seem to recall Dave Taylor saying the sampling periods may have been different. Another chap Brian Hankin posted on the Haven forum in 2011 that MM, Disc, and (RR after July 1967) all used Monday thru Saturday, but NME, RM, and early RR were all different from that, and different from each other, and that there were thus 4 different sampling periods used among the 5 charts !!

    When I asked Alan (a year ago) about what Brian had posted, Alan said "it's all codswallop. All chart compilers used Monday to Saturday sales period in that order!"

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I'm really pleased you and so many others guys enjoy it Robbie. I'm defo enjoying compiling it. Aside from compiling what I believe to be the most accurate chart reflecting the time I'm also enjoying for the first time anywhere, I think, seeing all the charts lined up side by side giving a complete historical picture.
    Thanks too MyFriendJack, yeah the RR lost out on 2 counts, yes their compilation day differed from the others and it also had the smallest sample of shop returns to work with. But by averaging out we definitely get a more smoothed out chart which removes individual inconsistencies.

    The article in The Sun from 1964 is really interesting but I do believe it to be erroneous in specifying the number of chart returns used by MM and NME. Alan Smith's exhaustive research over a number of years I think gives the most accurate outcome regarding stores sampled at this time, putting MM on around 250 and NME on around 200. That's what I am using for calculation with Disc on 100 and RR on 85.

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  • MyFriendJack
    replied
    Just been reading through this fascinating thread, really good stuff. Just one thought on the fact that the RR charts always seemed out of step with the others. I seem to recall reading (many years ago) that this was partly a result of RR using a slightly different seven day window. If RR asked dealers to submit their returns based on sales over Saturday to Friday, that would inevitably lead to a different result than would arise from using Monday to Saturday. Unfortunately I can't elsewhere I read this, but I am hoping that by posting this, I might trigger someone else's memory.
    ​​

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  • Robbie
    replied
    The NME had a joint number 2 for Gene Pitney and The Rolling Stones on 12 December 1964? Other than the joint number 2 on the NME chart, all the papers were in agreement with the entire top 5.

    Thanks for continuing to compile the Ultimate Averaged Chart MrTibbs!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 12th December 1964.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 12th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week Title and Artist Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    1 1 I Feel Fine - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    3 2 I'm Gonna Be Strong - Gene Pitney 2 2 2 2 2 18415
    2 3 Little Red Rooster - The Rolling Stones 3 2 3 3 3 17980
    4 4 Downtown - Petula Clark 4 4 4 4 4 17145
    9 5 Walk Tall - Val Doonican 5 5 5 5 5 16510
    11 6 Pretty Paper - Roy Orbison 6 6 6 8 9 15420
    5 7 Baby Love - The Supremes 8 8 7 6 8 15055
    6 8 All Day And All Of The Night - The Kinks 7 7 8 7 7 14990
    16 9 I Understand - Freddie and The Dreamers 9 9 9 9 12 13715
    10 10 There's A Heartache Following Me - Jim Reeves 10 14 11 10 6 12625
    8 11 Um Um Um Um Um Um - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders 11 12 13 12 10 11985
    18 12 A Message To Martha - Adam Faith 12 11 12 14 14 11895
    12 13 Losing You - Dusty Springfield 13 17 14 11 11 10750
    7 14 He's In Town - The Rockin' Berries 14 22 10 13 13 10380
    27 15 No Arms Can Ever Hold You - The Bachelors 15 14 15 15 16 10275
    28 16 I Could Easily Fall - Cliff Richard 16 10 18 17 20 9785
    13 17 Don't Bring Me Down - The Pretty Things 17 18 16 16 17 9040
    20 18 Walk Away - Matt Monro 19 24 17 21 18 7005
    24 19 Terry - Twinkle 20 20 21 18 24 6595
    15 20 Tokyo Melody - Helmut Zacharias 18 27 19 19 15 6360
    30 21 Genie With The Light Brown Lamp - The Shadows 21= 19 24 24 22 5615
    NEW 22 Blue Christmas - Elvis Presley 23 16 26 22 26 5575
    22 23 Show Me Girl - Herman's Hermits 21= 23 22 25 19 5470
    NEW 24 Somewhere - P J Proby 24 13 28 23 30 5235
    21 25 Black Girl - The Four Pennies 25 26 20 29 21 4800
    14 26 Sha La La - Manfred Mann 26 23 20 23 3780
    NEW 27 What Have They Done To The Rain - The Searchers 29 21 27 2340
    17 28 Oh Pretty Woman - Roy Orbison 30 25 27 28 2155
    NEW 29 Girl Don't Come - Sandie Shaw 24 30 30 1750
    23 30 The Wedding - Julie Rogers 27 27 25 1510
    Beatles For Sale (LP) - The Beatles 28 28 26 1100
    Remember (Walking In The Sand) - The Shangri-Las 29 29 670
    Yeh Yeh - Georgie Fame and The Blue Flames 29 400
    Ringo - Lorne Green 28 300
    Baby I Need Your Loving - The Fourmost 30 200
    Cast Your Fate To The Wind - Sounds Orchestral 30 200

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The one for 28th November Graham

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Nope, thus far Robin just used once in 1964 for Can't Buy Me Love, and boy it was so worth it for that single lol

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Which of Brian's charts represents the same week as the Sun paper's chart?

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Another case where the BBC invoked their #1 rule, but Brian didn't have to...

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