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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Might there have been some internal MM debate this week about whether to include EPs in their singles chart? The Beatles EP is in the NME & Disc Top 20 but nowhere in the MM chart, not even in the 31- 50 section.
    I don't think it was doubt as MM continued with EP's well beyond 1963. I think it more likely to be that old chestnut that NME and Disc included advance orders in their figures.
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

    Comment


    • MM had ended their EP chart in May 1963, and I believe this was the first EP subsequently which sold enough to be in the singles chart. That is why I thought it might have been held back a week while MM decided whether it should be included.

      It is possible that in May MM intended not to include EPs in the singles chart but, as kingofskiffle suggests, realised this one was going to be too big to ignore. Once they had allowed it in they then felt obliged to include future EPs as well.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
        Pop Weekly don't show it until the following week either, and while that chart is not one of the more well known ones, its positions may be of value.
        'Pop Weekly' had a composite chart and it appears it entered there at 22 just like the BBC & Ultimate.
        Last edited by Splodj; Wed May 5, 2021, 13:32.

        Comment


        • While browsing I just came across this interesting comment by chance made by Alan Smith (ASM) in a discussion he was having on another site regarding charts back in 2003. It is interesting in that Alan makes a comment perhaps relevant to the RR/RM different position debate.

          ''Ah! I see Jeff. I have scoured other parts of that web Jeff. There is another chart page on that site. This chap has basically used the Tony Jasper "Record Mirror" lists for his data. Sadly all the "Record Mirror" mistakes as well. I have some "Record Mirrors" and their chart display page was very sloppy and mistake ridden. ASM''
          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

          Comment


          • The 'Pop Weekly' chart was one week late, as they had to add up the points from the other charts (and make some copyright avoiding changes) before publishing. So their 27-July chart equates to the others 20-July one. You can tell because Adam Faith and Brenda Lee enter the chart that week too.

            Comment


            • Never mind 75,000 copies - this is from DISC on 20th July 1963. 150,000 in 4 days.



              Comment


              • And from the inside pages of DISC. It was an official EMI statement. Note the EP title was originally "Beatles No. 1".


                Comment


                • 150,000 and only at 17?
                  Their number one must have been selling over 200,000 and everything else from 16 to two more than that!

                  Figures like that makes these point based charts just look stupid
                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                  Comment


                  • 150,000 over 4 days. Sales for only 2 of those days were included for the chart that week.

                    Comment


                    • It is entirely possible that the people who filled out the sales report for each store had varying opinions on whether an EP should be counted. The sales may have been high, but if half the stores didn't report it as a single (perhaps an album?) then it wouldn't get the points.

                      Comment


                      • 150,000 is likely to be shipments.

                        Comment


                        • Robbie is correct.
                          Shipments to the shops, not over the counter sales.
                          When I was a teenager I never heard of shipments, never mind returns. I was nave and thought it meant actual sales to buyers (even in the days when there were no bar codes).

                          But now I know better (and so should every poster on here).
                          Last edited by brian05; Wed May 5, 2021, 22:03.

                          Comment


                          • Irregardless of actual sales it heralded an onslaught of Beatles music to come in proportions unforeseen at the start of the year. If the first 6 months of 1963 were thought to be momentous the second six starting with 'Twist', and for me it was THE version, will change British popular music and culture for ever. I got it for Christmas that year

                            Bring it on !
                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                            Comment


                            • How much more expensive was the 'Twist and Shout' EP compared to the normal price of a single?

                              The EP consist of four tracks from the 'Please Please Me' album. Was the EP promoted as a mini-album or an album taster designed to sell the album? Given that the next Beatles single had already been recorded I doubt it was promoted as a single, or at least promoted in the traditional way as a single.

                              Comment


                              • EPs were roughly 1.5 times as expensive - 10/9d (old money) or about 55p.
                                Released due to popular demand, and to compete with the Brian Poole single.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                                  How much more expensive was the 'Twist and Shout' EP compared to the normal price of a single?

                                  The EP consist of four tracks from the 'Please Please Me' album. Was the EP promoted as a mini-album or an album taster designed to sell the album? Given that the next Beatles single had already been recorded I doubt it was promoted as a single, or at least promoted in the traditional way as a single.
                                  The original idea of the EP was a mini album. They were not at this time treated as album promotion, but stand alone products. Mostly as treats for the fans of big name artists. They were expensive, but they did have a proper sleeve and often a picture cover. Some were even stereo, but it wasn't common. As the album was more expensive, it was cheap way to buy a few extra tracks. For kids with less pocket money.

                                  I have checked the Real Chart for Twist and Shout EP and I found that it entered only at 42, but not that week, indicating that the two day charts were all fake. With a full seven days of sales it enters at 42 and then climbs steadily up the charts to reach number 2. The chart run is below:
                                  Week commencing 21 July (covers 15 to 20) 42-31-20-12-4-5-2-2-2-2. It then starts falling down.
                                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                  Comment


                                  • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending July 27th 1963

                                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending July 27th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
                                    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
                                    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                    1 1 Confessin' (That I Love You) - Frank Ifield 1 1 1 1 1 9900
                                    2 2 Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley 2 2 2 2 2 9570
                                    6 3 Sweets For My Sweet - The Searchers 3 3 3 3 3 9240
                                    3 4 I Like It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 5 6 4 4 7 8620
                                    7 5 Twist And Shout - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 4 5 5 5 5 8580
                                    5 6 Da Doo Ron Ron - The Crystals 6 4 7 6 6 8300
                                    4 7 Atlantis - The Shadows 7 7 6 7 4 8160
                                    8 8 Take These Chains From My Heart - Ray Charles 9 10 8 12 8 7190
                                    11 9 It's My Party - Lesley Gore 8 9 10 10 9 7060
                                    15 10 Sukiyaki - Kyu Sakamoto 10 13 9 8 12 6820
                                    22 11 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 14 8 14 9 6571
                                    12 12 Welcome To My World - Jim Reeves 11 11 12 11 11 6450
                                    9 13 Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 12 12 11 13 10 6430
                                    10 14 Bo Diddley - Buddy Holly 13 14 13 14 13 5790
                                    18 15 You Can Never Stop Me Loving You - Kenny Lynch 15 15 17 15 18 4890
                                    16 16 From Me To You - The Beatles 16 18 16 18 15 4680
                                    13 17 If You Gotta Make A Fool Of Somebody - Freddie and The Dreamers 17 21 15 20 16 4400
                                    14 18 Falling - Roy Orbison 18 22 18 19 14 3960
                                    29 19 I Wonder - Brenda Lee 19 19 22 16 20 3630
                                    24 20 Theme From 'The Legion's Patrol' - Ken Thorne 20 16 23 17 25 3580
                                    17 21 Forget Him - Bobby Rydell 21 24 19 21 17 3420
                                    20 22 Hey Mama - Frankie Vaughan 22= 24 21 21 2500
                                    19 23 Do You Want To Know A Secret - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 22= 27 20 19 2410
                                    NEW 24 So Much In Love - The Tymes 17 26 1650
                                    NEW 25 By The Way - The Big Three 28 25 23 1600
                                    NEW 26 In Summer - Billy Fury 20 22 1550
                                    NEW 27 I'll Never Get Over You - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 27 28 28 24 28 1190
                                    23 28 Bobby Tomorrow - Bobby Vee 24 27 1170
                                    NEW 29 Wipe Out - The Surfaris 28 22 28 29 1110
                                    21 30 When Will You Say I Love You - Billy Fury 30 26 22 1020
                                    25 Walkin' Tall - Adam Faith 29 26 30 23 890
                                    B The Cruel Sea - The Dakotas 27 26 750
                                    X Come On Home - The Springfields 30 27 300
                                    27 The Ice Cream Man - The Tornados 29 300
                                    X I'll Cut Your Tail Off - John Leyton 25 300
                                    26 Lucky Lips - Cliff Richard 24 210
                                    28 Twist And Shout - The Isley Brothers 29 100
                                    B Come On - The Rolling Stones 30 50
                                    30 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 30 30
                                    * Oddly, The BBC manuscript does not list numbers 24, 25, and 26. It has to be The Tymes, The Big Three and Billy Fury though.
                                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                    Comment


                                    • The Twist And Shout bandwagon picks up speed, The Tremeloes go top 5 as The Beatles soar to #11. The Isley's give up and leave the chart.

                                      Johnny Kidd's 'Never Get Over You' was hugely popular in my class at primary school as I remember. Lots of guys used to sing it.

                                      The most important thing this week though is an insignificant chart entry by a group at #30 on Disc in the breakers. They won't be insignificant for long.
                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                      Comment


                                      • A side issue guys. I'm also working my way through my copies of the Top Pops chart between 1968 and 1971. This was a chart based solely on W H Smith stores. Robin mentioned to me back last year when he gave them to me that most charts had no date on the page and some issues were missing so there may well be some wrong dates attributed to some charts. Although efforts had been made to try and date these correctly he couldn't be sure these were all correct which detracted from an accurate weekly chart flow.

                                        I came across a list of the Top Pops #1's by accident yesterday, likely one of the documents I got from Dave Taylor, and the weeks that they achieved this. With this dated list and last week positions I have been able to work my way through the charts and correctly date them. I am half way through this at present and quite a number have had to be re dated already. So within the next few days these will all be correctly dated and a correct record of available Top Pop charts completed.
                                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                        Comment


                                        • Looks like the BBC messed up their RR-compensating calculation for the Beatles EP.

                                          Are you going to include Top Pops in the Ultimate?

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                            Looks like the BBC messed up their RR-compensating calculation for the Beatles EP.

                                            Are you going to include Top Pops in the Ultimate?
                                            I considered that Splodj along with considering the other charts that came and went and decided against it on that basis mainly. NME, MM, RM, Disc, RR were mainstays for consistently longer periods and were considered 'the main' charts so decided for consistency throughout to stick with them. Also Top Pops only compiled from around a dozen stores so is even worse than RR but is an interesting side chart though.
                                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                              Looks like the BBC messed up their RR-compensating calculation for the Beatles EP.

                                              Are you going to include Top Pops in the Ultimate?
                                              I think the Top Pops chart is compiled from too few charts to be included. At 12 shops it's not going to be very reliable and possibly may also be very volatile?

                                              How did POTP compensate for EPs missing from the RR chart? I think it may have been explained before but if so I don't know where to find it. Simply adding in 31 as the RR chart position places the EP in the correct position on the chart in the last two POTP charts.

                                              Comment


                                              • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                                                Simply adding in 31 as the RR chart position places the EP in the correct position on the chart in the last two POTP charts.
                                                And that's how they did it. Anything which did not appear in the chart was awarded 31 points, as if it had bene at 31....
                                                http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                                Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                                Comment


                                                • They divided the total points by 3 to arrive at an average for RR. But looking ahead it seems that they did not apply this to Twist & Shout, as it seems to be consistently lowly placed.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • If you look at the very first chart on this thread in Jan 1964 you can see how the BBC compensated for RR on Twist & Shout properly.

                                                    The total points from the other 3 charts is 46. Divide this by 3 and you get an average position of 15. Add this to the 46 (as if it were the position it should have been in RR) and you get 61 points. This places it at number 16, ahead of number 17 with 62 points.

                                                    Comment

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