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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Splodj
    replied
    After 4-Nov-63 when the Beatles sang 'Twist and Shout' at the Royal Variety Performance ("rattle yer jewellery") the EP headed back up and on 23-Nov-63 re-entered the Top 20. It may have been this that prompted the BBC to change their calculation method, because the following week it also re-entered the BBC Top 20. It was actually played in POTPs Unit 1 as a new entry!

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  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    They divided the total points by 3 to arrive at an average for RR. But looking ahead it seems that they did not apply this to Twist & Shout, as it seems to be consistently lowly placed.
    If POTP did this for other EPs it seems strange that this wasn't done for T&S. Perhaps it was because, initially, Melody Maker also didn't chart the EP and seemed to have excluded it?

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I've been busy all morning and early afternoon and have just finished finished completing the Top Pops/Music Now chart re-dating exercise ahead of time.

    Theirs is another interesting chart for reading and comparing, initially compiled from around 12 W H Smith shops then around 30 - 40 from March 1970.

    Most of the dates needing correction were from 1968 and early 1969, then at the end of 1970 when a double date chart wasn't dated correctly. Every chart was checked for correct dates and dated where wrong.
    Not easy to work on due to poor quality print difficult to read at times on many issues and no chart dates on a lot of the earlier issues further complicated by trying to line up with missing weeks but I managed to complete it nonetheless helped further by having a list of the #1 records and dates. So all the charts are now accurately dated in a folder disregarding handwritten estimated dates written on the charts themselves some of which are now found to be wrong.

    I have them in a zip folder so if any of you guys wants these updated corrected charts to add to your collections send me your email in a private message and I will forward them on to you.

    Brian

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Perhaps the BBC only introduced their RR-compensating method for EPs at some point between the two charts - I e. sometime in late 1963.
    The BBC should either have never included RR in its calculations at all because it differed from the other three in respect of this until the and of 1967, or, not include EP's at all in its calculations, although this would have been the greater of the two evils as EP's were an important feature of sixties musical culture.

    Instead the BBC dithered and chopped and changed its methodology rendering its chart ineffective due to being error ridden and inconsistent.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post

    You must have been thinking of vaulting over a horse in PE gymnastic lessons.

    I could never do it at primary school !

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Perhaps the BBC only introduced their RR-compensating method for EPs at some point between the two charts - I e. sometime in late 1963.

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  • brian05
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Johnny Kidd's 'Never Get Over You' was hugely popular in my class at primary school as I remember. Lots of guys used to sing it.
    You must have been thinking of vaulting over a horse in PE gymnastic lessons.

    I could never do it at primary school !

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    There was inconsistency in application by the BBC in this as much as there was in ties. Sometimes they just added the 31 which was a crazy calculation anyway and meaningless and other times used an average of the other three charts.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    If you look at the very first chart on this thread in Jan 1964 you can see how the BBC compensated for RR on Twist & Shout properly.

    The total points from the other 3 charts is 46. Divide this by 3 and you get an average position of 15. Add this to the 46 (as if it were the position it should have been in RR) and you get 61 points. This places it at number 16, ahead of number 17 with 62 points.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    They divided the total points by 3 to arrive at an average for RR. But looking ahead it seems that they did not apply this to Twist & Shout, as it seems to be consistently lowly placed.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    Simply adding in 31 as the RR chart position places the EP in the correct position on the chart in the last two POTP charts.
    And that's how they did it. Anything which did not appear in the chart was awarded 31 points, as if it had bene at 31....

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  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Looks like the BBC messed up their RR-compensating calculation for the Beatles EP.

    Are you going to include Top Pops in the Ultimate?
    I think the Top Pops chart is compiled from too few charts to be included. At 12 shops it's not going to be very reliable and possibly may also be very volatile?

    How did POTP compensate for EPs missing from the RR chart? I think it may have been explained before but if so I don't know where to find it. Simply adding in 31 as the RR chart position places the EP in the correct position on the chart in the last two POTP charts.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Looks like the BBC messed up their RR-compensating calculation for the Beatles EP.

    Are you going to include Top Pops in the Ultimate?
    I considered that Splodj along with considering the other charts that came and went and decided against it on that basis mainly. NME, MM, RM, Disc, RR were mainstays for consistently longer periods and were considered 'the main' charts so decided for consistency throughout to stick with them. Also Top Pops only compiled from around a dozen stores so is even worse than RR but is an interesting side chart though.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Looks like the BBC messed up their RR-compensating calculation for the Beatles EP.

    Are you going to include Top Pops in the Ultimate?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    A side issue guys. I'm also working my way through my copies of the Top Pops chart between 1968 and 1971. This was a chart based solely on W H Smith stores. Robin mentioned to me back last year when he gave them to me that most charts had no date on the page and some issues were missing so there may well be some wrong dates attributed to some charts. Although efforts had been made to try and date these correctly he couldn't be sure these were all correct which detracted from an accurate weekly chart flow.

    I came across a list of the Top Pops #1's by accident yesterday, likely one of the documents I got from Dave Taylor, and the weeks that they achieved this. With this dated list and last week positions I have been able to work my way through the charts and correctly date them. I am half way through this at present and quite a number have had to be re dated already. So within the next few days these will all be correctly dated and a correct record of available Top Pop charts completed.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Twist And Shout bandwagon picks up speed, The Tremeloes go top 5 as The Beatles soar to #11. The Isley's give up and leave the chart.

    Johnny Kidd's 'Never Get Over You' was hugely popular in my class at primary school as I remember. Lots of guys used to sing it.

    The most important thing this week though is an insignificant chart entry by a group at #30 on Disc in the breakers. They won't be insignificant for long.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending July 27th 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending July 27th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Confessin' (That I Love You) - Frank Ifield 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    2 2 Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    6 3 Sweets For My Sweet - The Searchers 3 3 3 3 3 9240
    3 4 I Like It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 5 6 4 4 7 8620
    7 5 Twist And Shout - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 4 5 5 5 5 8580
    5 6 Da Doo Ron Ron - The Crystals 6 4 7 6 6 8300
    4 7 Atlantis - The Shadows 7 7 6 7 4 8160
    8 8 Take These Chains From My Heart - Ray Charles 9 10 8 12 8 7190
    11 9 It's My Party - Lesley Gore 8 9 10 10 9 7060
    15 10 Sukiyaki - Kyu Sakamoto 10 13 9 8 12 6820
    22 11 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 14 8 14 9 6571
    12 12 Welcome To My World - Jim Reeves 11 11 12 11 11 6450
    9 13 Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 12 12 11 13 10 6430
    10 14 Bo Diddley - Buddy Holly 13 14 13 14 13 5790
    18 15 You Can Never Stop Me Loving You - Kenny Lynch 15 15 17 15 18 4890
    16 16 From Me To You - The Beatles 16 18 16 18 15 4680
    13 17 If You Gotta Make A Fool Of Somebody - Freddie and The Dreamers 17 21 15 20 16 4400
    14 18 Falling - Roy Orbison 18 22 18 19 14 3960
    29 19 I Wonder - Brenda Lee 19 19 22 16 20 3630
    24 20 Theme From 'The Legion's Patrol' - Ken Thorne 20 16 23 17 25 3580
    17 21 Forget Him - Bobby Rydell 21 24 19 21 17 3420
    20 22 Hey Mama - Frankie Vaughan 22= 24 21 21 2500
    19 23 Do You Want To Know A Secret - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 22= 27 20 19 2410
    NEW 24 So Much In Love - The Tymes 17 26 1650
    NEW 25 By The Way - The Big Three 28 25 23 1600
    NEW 26 In Summer - Billy Fury 20 22 1550
    NEW 27 I'll Never Get Over You - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 27 28 28 24 28 1190
    23 28 Bobby Tomorrow - Bobby Vee 24 27 1170
    NEW 29 Wipe Out - The Surfaris 28 22 28 29 1110
    21 30 When Will You Say I Love You - Billy Fury 30 26 22 1020
    25 Walkin' Tall - Adam Faith 29 26 30 23 890
    B The Cruel Sea - The Dakotas 27 26 750
    X Come On Home - The Springfields 30 27 300
    27 The Ice Cream Man - The Tornados 29 300
    X I'll Cut Your Tail Off - John Leyton 25 300
    26 Lucky Lips - Cliff Richard 24 210
    28 Twist And Shout - The Isley Brothers 29 100
    B Come On - The Rolling Stones 30 50
    30 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 30 30
    * Oddly, The BBC manuscript does not list numbers 24, 25, and 26. It has to be The Tymes, The Big Three and Billy Fury though.

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    How much more expensive was the 'Twist and Shout' EP compared to the normal price of a single?

    The EP consist of four tracks from the 'Please Please Me' album. Was the EP promoted as a mini-album or an album taster designed to sell the album? Given that the next Beatles single had already been recorded I doubt it was promoted as a single, or at least promoted in the traditional way as a single.
    The original idea of the EP was a mini album. They were not at this time treated as album promotion, but stand alone products. Mostly as treats for the fans of big name artists. They were expensive, but they did have a proper sleeve and often a picture cover. Some were even stereo, but it wasn't common. As the album was more expensive, it was cheap way to buy a few extra tracks. For kids with less pocket money.

    I have checked the Real Chart for Twist and Shout EP and I found that it entered only at 42, but not that week, indicating that the two day charts were all fake. With a full seven days of sales it enters at 42 and then climbs steadily up the charts to reach number 2. The chart run is below:
    Week commencing 21 July (covers 15 to 20) 42-31-20-12-4-5-2-2-2-2. It then starts falling down.

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  • brian05
    replied
    EPs were roughly 1.5 times as expensive - 10/9d (old money) or about 55p.
    Released due to popular demand, and to compete with the Brian Poole single.

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  • Robbie
    replied
    How much more expensive was the 'Twist and Shout' EP compared to the normal price of a single?

    The EP consist of four tracks from the 'Please Please Me' album. Was the EP promoted as a mini-album or an album taster designed to sell the album? Given that the next Beatles single had already been recorded I doubt it was promoted as a single, or at least promoted in the traditional way as a single.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Irregardless of actual sales it heralded an onslaught of Beatles music to come in proportions unforeseen at the start of the year. If the first 6 months of 1963 were thought to be momentous the second six starting with 'Twist', and for me it was THE version, will change British popular music and culture for ever. I got it for Christmas that year

    Bring it on !

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  • brian05
    replied
    Robbie is correct.
    Shipments to the shops, not over the counter sales.
    When I was a teenager I never heard of shipments, never mind returns. I was nave and thought it meant actual sales to buyers (even in the days when there were no bar codes).

    But now I know better (and so should every poster on here).
    Last edited by brian05; Wed May 5, 2021, 21:03.

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  • Robbie
    replied
    150,000 is likely to be shipments.

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    It is entirely possible that the people who filled out the sales report for each store had varying opinions on whether an EP should be counted. The sales may have been high, but if half the stores didn't report it as a single (perhaps an album?) then it wouldn't get the points.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    150,000 over 4 days. Sales for only 2 of those days were included for the chart that week.

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