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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • brian05
    replied
    And from the inside pages of DISC. It was an official EMI statement. Note the EP title was originally "Beatles No. 1".


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  • brian05
    replied
    Never mind 75,000 copies - this is from DISC on 20th July 1963. 150,000 in 4 days.



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  • Splodj
    replied
    The 'Pop Weekly' chart was one week late, as they had to add up the points from the other charts (and make some copyright avoiding changes) before publishing. So their 27-July chart equates to the others 20-July one. You can tell because Adam Faith and Brenda Lee enter the chart that week too.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    While browsing I just came across this interesting comment by chance made by Alan Smith (ASM) in a discussion he was having on another site regarding charts back in 2003. It is interesting in that Alan makes a comment perhaps relevant to the RR/RM different position debate.

    ''Ah! I see Jeff. I have scoured other parts of that web Jeff. There is another chart page on that site. This chap has basically used the Tony Jasper "Record Mirror" lists for his data. Sadly all the "Record Mirror" mistakes as well. I have some "Record Mirrors" and their chart display page was very sloppy and mistake ridden. ASM''

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
    Pop Weekly don't show it until the following week either, and while that chart is not one of the more well known ones, its positions may be of value.
    'Pop Weekly' had a composite chart and it appears it entered there at 22 just like the BBC & Ultimate.
    Last edited by Splodj; Wed May 5, 2021, 11:32.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    MM had ended their EP chart in May 1963, and I believe this was the first EP subsequently which sold enough to be in the singles chart. That is why I thought it might have been held back a week while MM decided whether it should be included.

    It is possible that in May MM intended not to include EPs in the singles chart but, as kingofskiffle suggests, realised this one was going to be too big to ignore. Once they had allowed it in they then felt obliged to include future EPs as well.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Might there have been some internal MM debate this week about whether to include EPs in their singles chart? The Beatles EP is in the NME & Disc Top 20 but nowhere in the MM chart, not even in the 31- 50 section.
    I don't think it was doubt as MM continued with EP's well beyond 1963. I think it more likely to be that old chestnut that NME and Disc included advance orders in their figures.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Might there have some internal MM debate this week about whether to include EPs in their singles chart? The Beatles are in the NME & Disc Top 20 but nowhere in the MM chart, not even in the 31- 50 section.
    Given the position it arrives at in the following chart, very probably. That said, Pop Weekly don't show it until the following week either, and while that chart is not one of the more well known ones, its positions may be of value. In the same issue that they chart the EP they state (Under Pop Talk - Page 16) "Beatles new EP reportedly selling 75,000". I'm not going to debate the facts of if it did sell that figure, as we know sales info is open to interpretation and manipulation when not audited correctly but what I want here is if this was selling a significant amount and showing up on returns as a high entry (75,000 spread across the country would indicate that most shops would sell a few copies at least! - so it would show up in their chart returns) then MM would need to decide.

    If this did show up high enough then the MM and others would need to think about including it or not - and if not (particularly when other papers did) they would not want to be seen as out of pace. Plus, suppose it had gone to number 1 in NME and MM didn't even list it? We know now it did not, but at this point they would not. Indeed it got to 2 in MM in the end, and could have been a potential number 1 record. They would want their chart seen as a credible one.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Might there have been some internal MM debate this week about whether to include EPs in their singles chart? The Beatles EP is in the NME & Disc Top 20 but nowhere in the MM chart, not even in the 31- 50 section.
    Last edited by Splodj; Wed May 5, 2021, 09:30.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    and the battle is on for 'Twist' .. The Isley Brothers fall at the first hurdle and it seems to The Trems that they are off and running to an outright winner, BUT a certain EP debuts at #22 that signals competition ahead for The Trems .. maybe

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending July 20th 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending July 20th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 Confessin' (That I Love You) - Frank Ifield 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    4 2 Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley 2 2 2 2 3 9540
    1 3 I Like It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 3 3 3 3 2 9270
    3 4 Atlantis - The Shadows 4 5 4 4 4 8810
    9 5 Da Doo Ron Ron - The Crystals 5 6 6 6 5 8280
    13 6 Sweets For My Sweet - The Seachers 6 4 8 5 7 8170
    17 7 Twist And Shout - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 7 7 5 8 11 8050
    6 8 Take These Chains From My Heart - Ray Charles 8 9 7 10 6 7600
    7 9 Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 9 8 9 9 10 7330
    8 10 Bo Diddley - Buddy Holly 11 11 10 11 8 6840
    10 11 It's My Party - Lesley Gore 10 12 11 7 9 6760
    11 12 Welcome To My World - Jim Reeves 12 10 13 12 12 6320
    5 13 If You Gotta Make A Fool Of Somebody - Freddie and The Dreamers 13 14 12 13 14 5960
    12 14 Falling - Roy Orbison 14 17 14 14 13 5340
    19 15 Sukiyaki - Kyu Sakamoto 15 16 15 15 17 5120
    14 16 From Me To You - The Beatles 16 15 16 16 16 5050
    16 17 Forget Him - Bobby Rydell 17 19 17 18 15 4430
    21 18 You Can Never Stop me Loving You - Kenny Lynch 18 18 19 20 20 3980
    15 19 Do You Want To Know A Secret - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 19 21 18 22 18 3790
    26 20 Hey Mama - Frankie Vaughan 20 25 21 23 21 2800
    18 21 When Will You Say I Love You - Billy Fury 21 20 21 19 2510
    NEW 22 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 22 13 17 2500
    20 23 Bobby Tomorrow - Bobby Vee 24 26 22 23 2090
    NEW 24 Theme From 'The Legion's Last Patrol' - Ken Thorne 23 19 19 1800
    NEW 25 Walkin' Tall - Adam Faith 25 23 28 25 1430
    22 26 Lucky Lips - Cliff Richard 27= 30 24 24 1360
    24 27 The Ice Cream Man - The Tornados 30= 23 28 1290
    27 28 Twist And Shout - The Isley Brothers 27= 22 25 1200
    NEW 29 I Wonder - Brenda Lee 26 23 24 30 1180
    25 30 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 27= 25 22 1170
    28 Nature's Time For Love - Joe Brown 30= 26 26 900
    23 Scarlett O'Hara - jet Harris and Tony Meehan 27 29 660
    X The Good Life - Tony Bennett 27 27 600
    X I'll Cut Your Tail Off - John Leyton 30 26 400
    X Mister Porter - Mickie Most 28 300
    X It's Too Late Now - The Swinging Blue Jeans 29 300
    B I'll Never Get Over You - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 29 200
    X Go Go Go - Chuck Berry 28 150
    29 Rondo - Kenny Ball 27 120
    B By The Way - The Big Three 29 100
    X One Fine Day - The Chiffons 30 50
    30 Two Kinds Of Teardrops - Del Shannon

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    They could just as easily have got data from polyhex or others. Graham Betts supplied some data for the Virgin book years ago so they could have got it then.

    I think the most important point is not to trust the OCC website until 12 Feb 1994. It is inaccurate sadly. I should write a blog post for my website on error copying through. I can think of two really good errors that show how a source is used as right and not gone back and checked the original. Herb Alpert has a lovely album error (well not really!) increasing his top ten numbers. And there is another in NME in 1953 that’s only an error if you pick up the wrong book. All of these are database key stroke errors and easily done. But all are avoidable if you go back to the original source.

    One reason why I want to get my hands on the original sales sheets from the BMRB in the 1970’s because they are the original source. Everything else is a copy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Woz1234
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    Referring back to 8th February 1969,

    You have I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations at no. 7 and Scaffold not in the chart in your RR listing.

    but chartwatcherdl in his Record Mirror listings has,
    Diana Ross/Supremes/Temptations at no. 37 and Scaffold at no. 7. Who is correct?

    Another mystery. For Lily the Pink,
    RM/RR run was,
    ... 7, 34, 19=, 22...

    whereas OCC run was,
    ... 7, 34, 20, 19, 22 ...

    So they have included an extra week.

    When Scaffold went from 7 to 34 - MRS. ROBINSON (EP) - Simon and Garfunkel went from 27 to 9, then out of Top 50. So perhaps Scaffold should have went 7, 9, 19 and Simon and Garfunkel should have went 27, 34 OUT.

    Can you solve this mystery?
    https://www.officialcharts.com/chart...19690212/7501/

    On the link above "Lily The Pink" seems to be at #19 & #20.

    OCC, I think (I could be wrong) have used their chart data [1952-1993] from Chart Stats/Chart Archive website [which is gone now]
    because on there "Lily The Pink" was at #20.
    Last edited by Woz1234; Tue May 4, 2021, 18:03.

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  • Woz1234
    replied
    If it outside the Top 30 in RR Brian normally leaves it blink cause "Lily The Pink" was at #34, he only uses the Top 30 RR when complies UAC.
    Last edited by Woz1234; Tue May 4, 2021, 17:19.

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  • brian05
    replied
    But for 8th February 1969 your RR column is blank.


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  • brian05
    replied
    True. I was looking at the previous week column.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    The 'same song on 2 labels' issue reappeared in 1976 with Leader Of The Pack. After a couple of weeks they decided to add together the sales and bracket them together in a single position. This was despite them having different B-sides. Also the Charly version was the original mono, whereas the Comtempo version was a stereo mix with a line in the middle cut out. Radio stations had different policies about which version they played; Luxembourg alternated them.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Brian I've just noticed chartwatcheredl's RM chart for 8th Feb is the same for those records as RR. It looks like you looked at the 1st Feb chart as it has Scaffold at 7 and Sup/Temps at 37 ?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    Referring back to 8th February 1969,

    You have I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations at no. 7 and Scaffold not in the chart in your RR listing.

    but chartwatcherdl in his Record Mirror listings has,
    Diana Ross/Supremes/Temptations at no. 37 and Scaffold at no. 7. Who is correct?

    Another mystery. For Lily the Pink,
    RM/RR run was,
    ... 7, 34, 19=, 22...

    whereas OCC run was,
    ... 7, 34, 20, 19, 22 ...

    So they have included an extra week.

    When Scaffold went from 7 to 34 - MRS. ROBINSON (EP) - Simon and Garfunkel went from 27 to 9, then out of Top 50. So perhaps Scaffold should have went 7, 9, 19 and Simon and Garfunkel should have went 27, 34 OUT.

    Can you solve this mystery?
    My positions Brian are taken from the RR charts for that week. They clearly have Sup/Temps at 7 and Scaffold at 34. RR did apparently state at the time their chart was compiled from 'a limited number' of returns. As we have discussed here and on your forum no one seems to know exactly where RM positions originated from and why they differed to RR.

    I stuck to RR because of this and for consistency throughout.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    I have the print version of Record Retailer for October 4th 1969 showing the two entries at nos. 3 and 16. But where would any "alternative chart" be published? Never heard of it.

    Elsewhere in that edition it stated there are 4,500 UK record shops and a further 1,000 non-record outlets stocking musicassettes.
    I remembered that an alternative chart was compiled at the time Brian combining sales of both. I have it somewhere but couldn't locate it quickly for compiling that week of the 1969 averaged chart. Lonnie kindly forwarded it to me. Here it is for your info.
    • On 30th Sept 1969, Radio One announced the following chart, it is different to the one, featured in chart books, Music Week. This is because both record labels, of JE T`AIME MOI NON PLUS by JANE BIRKIN & SERGE GAINSBOURG (Major Minor & Fontana) were listed together for the BBC, and Radio One. In the chart books, and Music Week, the 2 record labels copies of the song, are listed separately.

      Here is the chart, as broadcasted on Radio One, for that week
      01 01 BAD MOON RISING (Although not listed as a Double A side, “Lodi” the B side got lots of airplay in Britain)
      02 02 JE T`AIME MOI NON PLUS
      03 04 I`LL NEVER FALL IN LOVE AGAIN
      04 10 A BOY NAMED SUE
      05 03 DON`T FORGET TO REMEMBER
      06 07 GOOD MORNING STARSHINE
      07 14 THROW DOWN A LINE
      08 11 IT`S GETTING BETTER
      09 12 LAY LADY LAY
      10 05 IN THE YEAR 2525
      11 06 NATURAL BORN BUGIE
      12 19 HARE KRISHNA MANTRA
      13 09 VIVA BOBBY JOE
      14 20 NOBODY`S CHILD
      15 08 TOO BUSY THINKING ABOUT MY BABY
      16 28 I`M GONNA MAKE YOU MINE
      17 I SECOND THAT EMOTION – SUPREMES/TEMPTATIONS
      18 27 LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT
      19 25 SPACE ODDITY
      20 16 MY CHERIE AMOUR
      21 23 SAVED BY THE BELL
      22 BIRTH – PEDDLARS
      23 24 MAKE ME AN ISLAND
      24 13 PUT YOURSELF IN MY PLACE
      25 22 SOUL DEEP – BOX TOPS
      26 DO WHAT YOU GOTTA DO – FOUR TOPS
      27 29 I`M A BETTER MAN
      28 21 CLEAN UP YOUR OWN BACKYARD
      29 18 HONKY TONK WOMEN
      30 15 CLOUD NINE – TEMPTATIONS
      31 HE AIN`T HEAVY HE`S MY BROTHER
      32 26 WET DREAM – MAX ROMEO
      33 OH WELL – FLEETWOOD MAC
      34 47 WHEN TWO WORLS COLLIDE – JIM REEVES
      34=39 MY WAY – FRANK SINATRA
      36 17 MARRAKESH EXPRESS – CROSBY, STILLS AND NASH
      37 30 EARLY IN THE MORNING – VANITY FARE
      38 48 DELTA LADY – JOE COCKER
      39 THE HUNT – BARRY RYAN
      40 34 TEARS WON`T WASH AWAY THE HEARTACHES – KEN DODD
      41 37 25 MILES – EDWIN STARR
      42 44 AM I THE SAME GIRL – DUSTY SPRINGFIELD
      43 LOVE`S BEEN GOOD TO ME – FRANK SINATRA
      44 36 TEARS IN THE WIND - CHICKEN SHACK
      45 32 CURLY – THE MOVE
      46 36 FOR ONCE IN MY LIFE – DOROTHY SQUIRES
      47 GOODNIGHT MIDNIGHT – CLODAGH RODGERS
      48 42 GIVE PEACE A CHANCE – PLASTIC ONO BAND
      48= RETURN OF DJANGO – UPSETTERS
      50 40 PENNY ARCADE – ROY ORBISON

      The chart also differed, on the following week (7th Oct 69), when JE T`AIME was again listed together on Radio One. It did not affect the top 30 though. The positions 31 to 50, were as follows:

      31 25 SOUL DEEP
      32 50 PENNY ARCADE
      33 39 THE HUNT
      34 22 BIRTH
      35 41 25 MILES
      36 48 RETURN OF DJANGO
      37 23 MAKE ME AN ISLAND
      38 38 DELTA LADY
      39 37 EARLY IN THE MORNING
      40 36 MARRAKESH EXPRESS
      41 EVERYBODY`S TALKIN` - NILSON
      42 SUGAR SUGAR – ARCHIES
      43 46 FOR ONCE IN MY LIFE – DOROTHY SQUIRES
      44 34 MY WAY – FRANK SINATRA
      45 40 TEARS WON`T WASH AWAY MY HEARTACHES – KEN DODD
      46 44 TEARS IN THE WIND – CHICKEN SHACK
      47 45 CURLY – THE MOVE
      48 28 CLEAN UP YOUR OWN BACKYARD – ELVIS PRESLEY
      49 34 WHEN TWO WORLD COLLIDE – JIM REEVES
      50 42 AM I THE SAME GIRL – DUSTY SPRINGFIELD

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  • brian05
    replied
    Referring back to 8th February 1969,

    You have I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations at no. 7 and Scaffold not in the chart in your RR listing.

    but chartwatcherdl in his Record Mirror listings has,
    Diana Ross/Supremes/Temptations at no. 37 and Scaffold at no. 7. Who is correct?

    Another mystery. For Lily the Pink,
    RM/RR run was,
    ... 7, 34, 19=, 22...

    whereas OCC run was,
    ... 7, 34, 20, 19, 22 ...

    So they have included an extra week.

    When Scaffold went from 7 to 34 - MRS. ROBINSON (EP) - Simon and Garfunkel went from 27 to 9, then out of Top 50. So perhaps Scaffold should have went 7, 9, 19 and Simon and Garfunkel should have went 27, 34 OUT.

    Can you solve this mystery?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Cheers Lonnie. I needed it for the 1969 averaged chart

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    I have the print version of Record Retailer for October 4th 1969 showing the two entries at nos. 3 and 16. But where would any "alternative chart" be published? Never heard of it.

    Elsewhere in that edition it stated there are 4,500 UK record shops and a further 1,000 non-record outlets stocking musicassettes.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    commented on 's reply
    Sent you a PM

  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I need someone's help

    I have this somewhere but can't find it.

    On October 4th 1969 'Je T'aime' appeared twice on the RR chart at #3 and #16 due to being on Fontana who gave up on it and Major Minor who picked it up.

    But I also know RR had an alternative chart where both versions were combined sales wise. Anyone else got this chart please ?

    Leave a comment:

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