The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[brian05]

And from the inside pages of DISC. It was an official EMI statement. Note the EP title was originally "Beatles No. 1".

[brian05]

Never mind 75,000 copies - this is from DISC on 20th July 1963. 150,000 in 4 days.

[Splodj]

The 'Pop Weekly' chart was one week late, as they had to add up the points from the other charts (and make some copyright avoiding changes) before publishing. So their 27-July chart equates to the others 20-July one. You can tell because Adam Faith and Brenda Lee enter the chart that week too.

[MrTibbs]

While browsing I just came across this interesting comment by chance made by Alan Smith (ASM) in a discussion he was having on another site regarding charts back in 2003. It is interesting in that Alan makes a comment perhaps relevant to the RR/RM different position debate.

''Ah! I see Jeff. I have scoured other parts of that web Jeff. There is another chart page on that site. This chap has basically used the Tony Jasper "Record Mirror" lists for his data. Sadly all the "Record Mirror" mistakes as well. I have some "Record Mirrors" and their chart display page was very sloppy and mistake ridden. ASM''

[Splodj]

Pop Weekly don't show it until the following week either, and while that chart is not one of the more well known ones, its positions may be of value.

'Pop Weekly' had a composite chart and it appears it entered there at 22 just like the BBC & Ultimate.

[Splodj]

MM had ended their EP chart in May 1963, and I believe this was the first EP subsequently which sold enough to be in the singles chart. That is why I thought it might have been held back a week while MM decided whether it should be included.

It is possible that in May MM intended not to include EPs in the singles chart but, as kingofskiffle suggests, realised this one was going to be too big to ignore. Once they had allowed it in they then felt obliged to include future EPs as well.

[MrTibbs]

Might there have been some internal MM debate this week about whether to include EPs in their singles chart? The Beatles EP is in the NME & Disc Top 20 but nowhere in the MM chart, not even in the 31- 50 section.

I don't think it was doubt as MM continued with EP's well beyond 1963. I think it more likely to be that old chestnut that NME and Disc included advance orders in their figures.

[kingofskiffle]

Might there have some internal MM debate this week about whether to include EPs in their singles chart? The Beatles are in the NME & Disc Top 20 but nowhere in the MM chart, not even in the 31- 50 section.

Given the position it arrives at in the following chart, very probably. That said, Pop Weekly don't show it until the following week either, and while that chart is not one of the more well known ones, its positions may be of value. In the same issue that they chart the EP they state (Under Pop Talk - Page 16) "Beatles new EP reportedly selling 75,000". I'm not going to debate the facts of if it did sell that figure, as we know sales info is open to interpretation and manipulation when not audited correctly but what I want here is if this was selling a significant amount and showing up on returns as a high entry (75,000 spread across the country would indicate that most shops would sell a few copies at least! - so it would show up in their chart returns) then MM would need to decide.

If this did show up high enough then the MM and others would need to think about including it or not - and if not (particularly when other papers did) they would not want to be seen as out of pace. Plus, suppose it had gone to number 1 in NME and MM didn't even list it? We know now it did not, but at this point they would not. Indeed it got to 2 in MM in the end, and could have been a potential number 1 record. They would want their chart seen as a credible one.

[Splodj]

Might there have been some internal MM debate this week about whether to include EPs in their singles chart? The Beatles EP is in the NME & Disc Top 20 but nowhere in the MM chart, not even in the 31- 50 section.

[MrTibbs]

and the battle is on for 'Twist' .. The Isley Brothers fall at the first hurdle and it seems to The Trems that they are off and running to an outright winner, BUT a certain EP debuts at #22 that signals competition ahead for The Trems .. maybe

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending July 20th 1963

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending July 20th 1963								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	100	150	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
2	1	Confessin' (That I Love You) - Frank Ifield					1	1	1	1	1	9900
4	2	Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley					2	2	2	2	3	9540
1	3	I Like It - Gerry and The Pacemakers					3	3	3	3	2	9270
3	4	Atlantis - The Shadows					4	5	4	4	4	8810
9	5	Da Doo Ron Ron - The Crystals					5	6	6	6	5	8280
13	6	Sweets For My Sweet - The Seachers					6	4	8	5	7	8170
17	7	Twist And Shout - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes					7	7	5	8	11	8050
6	8	Take These Chains From My Heart - Ray Charles					8	9	7	10	6	7600
7	9	Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale					9	8	9	9	10	7330
8	10	Bo Diddley - Buddy Holly					11	11	10	11	8	6840
10	11	It's My Party - Lesley Gore					10	12	11	7	9	6760
11	12	Welcome To My World - Jim Reeves					12	10	13	12	12	6320
5	13	If You Gotta Make A Fool Of Somebody - Freddie and The Dreamers					13	14	12	13	14	5960
12	14	Falling - Roy Orbison					14	17	14	14	13	5340
19	15	Sukiyaki - Kyu Sakamoto					15	16	15	15	17	5120
14	16	From Me To You - The Beatles					16	15	16	16	16	5050
16	17	Forget Him - Bobby Rydell					17	19	17	18	15	4430
21	18	You Can Never Stop me Loving You - Kenny Lynch					18	18	19	20	20	3980
15	19	Do You Want To Know A Secret - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas					19	21	18	22	18	3790
26	20	Hey Mama - Frankie Vaughan					20	25	21	23	21	2800
18	21	When Will You Say I Love You - Billy Fury					21		20	21	19	2510
NEW	22	Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles					22	13		17		2500
20	23	Bobby Tomorrow - Bobby Vee					24	26	22		23	2090
NEW	24	Theme From 'The Legion's Last Patrol' - Ken Thorne					23	19		19		1800
NEW	25	Walkin' Tall - Adam Faith					25	23	28		25	1430
22	26	Lucky Lips - Cliff Richard					27=	30	24		24	1360
24	27	The Ice Cream Man - The Tornados					30=		23		28	1290
27	28	Twist And Shout - The Isley Brothers					27=	22		25		1200
NEW	29	I Wonder - Brenda Lee					26	23		24	30	1180
25	30	In Dreams - Roy Orbison					27=		25		22	1170
28		Nature's Time For Love - Joe Brown					30=		26		26	900
23		Scarlett O'Hara - jet Harris and Tony Meehan							27		29	660
X		The Good Life - Tony Bennett						27		27		600
X		I'll Cut Your Tail Off - John Leyton							30	26		400
X		Mister Porter - Mickie Most						28				300
X		It's Too Late Now - The Swinging Blue Jeans							29			300
B		I'll Never Get Over You - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates						29				200
X		Go Go Go - Chuck Berry								28		150
29		Rondo - Kenny Ball									27	120
B		By The Way - The Big Three								29		100
X		One Fine Day - The Chiffons								30		50
30		Two Kinds Of Teardrops - Del Shannon

[kingofskiffle]

They could just as easily have got data from polyhex or others. Graham Betts supplied some data for the Virgin book years ago so they could have got it then.

I think the most important point is not to trust the OCC website until 12 Feb 1994. It is inaccurate sadly. I should write a blog post for my website on error copying through. I can think of two really good errors that show how a source is used as right and not gone back and checked the original. Herb Alpert has a lovely album error (well not really!) increasing his top ten numbers. And there is another in NME in 1953 that’s only an error if you pick up the wrong book. All of these are database key stroke errors and easily done. But all are avoidable if you go back to the original source.

One reason why I want to get my hands on the original sales sheets from the BMRB in the 1970’s because they are the original source. Everything else is a copy.

[Woz1234]

Referring back to 8th February 1969,

You have I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations at no. 7 and Scaffold not in the chart in your RR listing.

but chartwatcherdl in his Record Mirror listings has,
Diana Ross/Supremes/Temptations at no. 37 and Scaffold at no. 7. Who is correct?

Another mystery. For Lily the Pink,
RM/RR run was,
... 7, 34, 19=, 22...

whereas OCC run was,
... 7, 34, 20, 19, 22 ...

So they have included an extra week.

When Scaffold went from 7 to 34 - MRS. ROBINSON (EP) - Simon and Garfunkel went from 27 to 9, then out of Top 50. So perhaps Scaffold should have went 7, 9, 19 and Simon and Garfunkel should have went 27, 34 OUT.

Can you solve this mystery?

https://www.officialcharts.com/chart...19690212/7501/

On the link above "Lily The Pink" seems to be at #19 & #20.

OCC, I think (I could be wrong) have used their chart data [1952-1993] from Chart Stats/Chart Archive website [which is gone now]
because on there "Lily The Pink" was at #20.

[Woz1234]

If it outside the Top 30 in RR Brian normally leaves it blink cause "Lily The Pink" was at #34, he only uses the Top 30 RR when complies UAC.

[brian05]

But for 8th February 1969 your RR column is blank.

[brian05]

True. I was looking at the previous week column.

[Splodj]

The 'same song on 2 labels' issue reappeared in 1976 with Leader Of The Pack. After a couple of weeks they decided to add together the sales and bracket them together in a single position. This was despite them having different B-sides. Also the Charly version was the original mono, whereas the Comtempo version was a stereo mix with a line in the middle cut out. Radio stations had different policies about which version they played; Luxembourg alternated them.

[MrTibbs]

Brian I've just noticed chartwatcheredl's RM chart for 8th Feb is the same for those records as RR. It looks like you looked at the 1st Feb chart as it has Scaffold at 7 and Sup/Temps at 37 ?

[MrTibbs]

Referring back to 8th February 1969,

You have I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations at no. 7 and Scaffold not in the chart in your RR listing.

but chartwatcherdl in his Record Mirror listings has,
Diana Ross/Supremes/Temptations at no. 37 and Scaffold at no. 7. Who is correct?

Another mystery. For Lily the Pink,
RM/RR run was,
... 7, 34, 19=, 22...

whereas OCC run was,
... 7, 34, 20, 19, 22 ...

So they have included an extra week.

When Scaffold went from 7 to 34 - MRS. ROBINSON (EP) - Simon and Garfunkel went from 27 to 9, then out of Top 50. So perhaps Scaffold should have went 7, 9, 19 and Simon and Garfunkel should have went 27, 34 OUT.

Can you solve this mystery?

My positions Brian are taken from the RR charts for that week. They clearly have Sup/Temps at 7 and Scaffold at 34. RR did apparently state at the time their chart was compiled from 'a limited number' of returns. As we have discussed here and on your forum no one seems to know exactly where RM positions originated from and why they differed to RR.

I stuck to RR because of this and for consistency throughout.

[MrTibbs]

I have the print version of Record Retailer for October 4th 1969 showing the two entries at nos. 3 and 16. But where would any "alternative chart" be published? Never heard of it.

Elsewhere in that edition it stated there are 4,500 UK record shops and a further 1,000 non-record outlets stocking musicassettes.

I remembered that an alternative chart was compiled at the time Brian combining sales of both. I have it somewhere but couldn't locate it quickly for compiling that week of the 1969 averaged chart. Lonnie kindly forwarded it to me. Here it is for your info.

• On 30^th Sept 1969, Radio One announced the following chart, it is different to the one, featured in chart books, Music Week. This is because both record labels, of JE T`AIME MOI NON PLUS by JANE BIRKIN & SERGE GAINSBOURG (Major Minor & Fontana) were listed together for the BBC, and Radio One. In the chart books, and Music Week, the 2 record labels copies of the song, are listed separately.
  
  Here is the chart, as broadcasted on Radio One, for that week
  01 01 BAD MOON RISING (Although not listed as a Double A side, “Lodi” the B side got lots of airplay in Britain)
  02 02 JE T`AIME MOI NON PLUS
  03 04 I`LL NEVER FALL IN LOVE AGAIN
  04 10 A BOY NAMED SUE
  05 03 DON`T FORGET TO REMEMBER
  06 07 GOOD MORNING STARSHINE
  07 14 THROW DOWN A LINE
  08 11 IT`S GETTING BETTER
  09 12 LAY LADY LAY
  10 05 IN THE YEAR 2525
  11 06 NATURAL BORN BUGIE
  12 19 HARE KRISHNA MANTRA
  13 09 VIVA BOBBY JOE
  14 20 NOBODY`S CHILD
  15 08 TOO BUSY THINKING ABOUT MY BABY
  16 28 I`M GONNA MAKE YOU MINE
  17 I SECOND THAT EMOTION – SUPREMES/TEMPTATIONS
  18 27 LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT
  19 25 SPACE ODDITY
  20 16 MY CHERIE AMOUR
  21 23 SAVED BY THE BELL
  22 BIRTH – PEDDLARS
  23 24 MAKE ME AN ISLAND
  24 13 PUT YOURSELF IN MY PLACE
  25 22 SOUL DEEP – BOX TOPS
  26 DO WHAT YOU GOTTA DO – FOUR TOPS
  27 29 I`M A BETTER MAN
  28 21 CLEAN UP YOUR OWN BACKYARD
  29 18 HONKY TONK WOMEN
  30 15 CLOUD NINE – TEMPTATIONS
  31 HE AIN`T HEAVY HE`S MY BROTHER
  32 26 WET DREAM – MAX ROMEO
  33 OH WELL – FLEETWOOD MAC
  34 47 WHEN TWO WORLS COLLIDE – JIM REEVES
  34=39 MY WAY – FRANK SINATRA
  36 17 MARRAKESH EXPRESS – CROSBY, STILLS AND NASH
  37 30 EARLY IN THE MORNING – VANITY FARE
  38 48 DELTA LADY – JOE COCKER
  39 THE HUNT – BARRY RYAN
  40 34 TEARS WON`T WASH AWAY THE HEARTACHES – KEN DODD
  41 37 25 MILES – EDWIN STARR
  42 44 AM I THE SAME GIRL – DUSTY SPRINGFIELD
  43 LOVE`S BEEN GOOD TO ME – FRANK SINATRA
  44 36 TEARS IN THE WIND - CHICKEN SHACK
  45 32 CURLY – THE MOVE
  46 36 FOR ONCE IN MY LIFE – DOROTHY SQUIRES
  47 GOODNIGHT MIDNIGHT – CLODAGH RODGERS
  48 42 GIVE PEACE A CHANCE – PLASTIC ONO BAND
  48= RETURN OF DJANGO – UPSETTERS
  50 40 PENNY ARCADE – ROY ORBISON
  
  The chart also differed, on the following week (7^th Oct 69), when JE T`AIME was again listed together on Radio One. It did not affect the top 30 though. The positions 31 to 50, were as follows:
  
  31 25 SOUL DEEP
  32 50 PENNY ARCADE
  33 39 THE HUNT
  34 22 BIRTH
  35 41 25 MILES
  36 48 RETURN OF DJANGO
  37 23 MAKE ME AN ISLAND
  38 38 DELTA LADY
  39 37 EARLY IN THE MORNING
  40 36 MARRAKESH EXPRESS
  41 EVERYBODY`S TALKIN` - NILSON
  42 SUGAR SUGAR – ARCHIES
  43 46 FOR ONCE IN MY LIFE – DOROTHY SQUIRES
  44 34 MY WAY – FRANK SINATRA
  45 40 TEARS WON`T WASH AWAY MY HEARTACHES – KEN DODD
  46 44 TEARS IN THE WIND – CHICKEN SHACK
  47 45 CURLY – THE MOVE
  48 28 CLEAN UP YOUR OWN BACKYARD – ELVIS PRESLEY
  49 34 WHEN TWO WORLD COLLIDE – JIM REEVES
  50 42 AM I THE SAME GIRL – DUSTY SPRINGFIELD

[brian05]

Referring back to 8th February 1969,

You have I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations at no. 7 and Scaffold not in the chart in your RR listing.

but chartwatcherdl in his Record Mirror listings has,
Diana Ross/Supremes/Temptations at no. 37 and Scaffold at no. 7. Who is correct?

Another mystery. For Lily the Pink,
RM/RR run was,
... 7, 34, 19=, 22...

whereas OCC run was,
... 7, 34, 20, 19, 22 ...

So they have included an extra week.

When Scaffold went from 7 to 34 - MRS. ROBINSON (EP) - Simon and Garfunkel went from 27 to 9, then out of Top 50. So perhaps Scaffold should have went 7, 9, 19 and Simon and Garfunkel should have went 27, 34 OUT.

Can you solve this mystery?

[MrTibbs]

Cheers Lonnie. I needed it for the 1969 averaged chart

[brian05]

I have the print version of Record Retailer for October 4th 1969 showing the two entries at nos. 3 and 16. But where would any "alternative chart" be published? Never heard of it.

Elsewhere in that edition it stated there are 4,500 UK record shops and a further 1,000 non-record outlets stocking musicassettes.

[kingofskiffle]

Sent you a PM

[MrTibbs]

I need someone's help

I have this somewhere but can't find it.

On October 4th 1969 'Je T'aime' appeared twice on the RR chart at #3 and #16 due to being on Fontana who gave up on it and Major Minor who picked it up.

But I also know RR had an alternative chart where both versions were combined sales wise. Anyone else got this chart please ?