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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Even at this time the Music Publishers and Labels were still in control of the music output. Lennon and McCartney fell into the system. Epstein at first wanted to go with Elvis' publishers, but George Martin told him they would push the group to the back. He suggested several other publishers including Dick James, but Epstein only saw James. So they set up Northern Songs. All the material already written and new would go through that. So when the A&R people at the labels got these songs they assigned them to the groups and acts wanting songs to do. As most of the Mersey bands had signed to EMI, the A&R men of the EMI labels snapped any songs they heard and told the bands to sing them. At first even the Beatles themselves had to record other people's songs. But they soon got around that!
    Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

    Comment


    • Greetings Pop Pickers !

      Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 10th 1963

      The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 10th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
      Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
      Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
      2 1 Sweets For My Sweet - The Searchers 1 1 1 1 1 9900
      1 2 Confessin' (That I Love You) - Frank Ifield 2 2 2 2 2 9570
      3 3 Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley 3 3 3 4 3 9190
      5 4 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 4 4 4 3 8972
      4 5 Twist And Shout - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 5 5 5 5 4 8610
      6 6 Do Doo Ron Ron - The Crystals 6 6 7 8 5 8030
      9 7 Sukiyaki - Kyu Sakamoto 7 9 6 9 6 7800
      27 8 Bad To Me - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 8= 7 11 6 11 7250
      7 9 Atlantis - The Shadows 10 11 8 11 7 7170
      17 10 In Summer - Billy Fury 8= 8 12 7 8 7040
      15 11 Theme From 'The Legion's Last Patrol' - Ken Thorne 12 12 9 12 14 6660
      8 12 I Like It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 11 13 10 13 9 6510
      13 13 You Can Never Stop Me Loving You - Kenny Lynch 14 14 13 15 10 5830
      20 14 Wipe Out - The Surfaris 13 10 17 10 13 5790
      10 15 Take These Chains From My Heart - Ray Charles 16 15 14 16 17 5320
      19 16 I'll Never Get Over You - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 15 17 15 14 16 5100
      12 17 Welcome To Me World - Jim Reeves 18 18 16 18 15 4680
      11 18 It's My Party - Lesley Gore 17 16 18 20 12 4570
      16 19 I Wonder - Brenda Lee 19 20 19 17 18 3990
      14 20 Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 20 19 20 19 23 3690
      25 21 So Much In Love - The Tymes 21 21 21 21 24 3210
      29 22 The Cruel Sea - The Dakotas 22 24 22 25 19 2710
      24 23 By The Way - The Big Three 23 28 23 26 22 2020
      21 24 From Me To You - The Beatles 24 24 28 20 1530
      18 25 Bo Diddley - Buddy Holly 25 29 25 29 21 1500
      30 26 Come On - The Rolling Stones 26= 27 27 24 28 1440
      NEW 27 You Don't Have To Be A Baby To Cry - The Caravelles 26= 22 22 1350
      NEW 28 I'm Telling You Now - Freddie and The Dreamers 28 26 23 900
      23 29 Falling - Roy Orbison 30 26 27 870
      NEW 30 Just Like Eddie - Heinz 23 800
      X The Good Life - Tony Bennett 29 25 27 800
      26 Forget Him - Bobby Rydell 28 26 600
      28 Hey Mama - Frankie Vaughan 29 25 480
      B Only The Heartaches - Houston Wells 30 30 250
      X After You've Gone - Alice Babs 30 100
      X One Fine Day - The Chiffons 29 60
      X Come On Home - The Springfields 30 50
      X True Love- Richard Chamberlain 30 30
      22 If You Gotta Make A Fool Of Somebody - Freddie and The Dreamers
      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

      Comment


      • BBC using RR-compensating method last week and this week.
        Last edited by Splodj; Sat May 8, 2021, 11:02.

        Comment


        • That 31 points system was meaningless really. It assumed every record in MM, NME, Disc, Top 30 not in RR could possibly be #31 so gave those points irregardless. Not an accurate method to calculate a chart.
          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

          Comment


          • The Beatles Twist And Shout EP should have been number one based on its sales figures, if only ALL the shops had returned EP sales (similarly for LP sales later).

            Comment


            • The BBC chart can be criticised for many things, but giving a fixed 31 points to a record below number 30 is not one of them. (I mean on ordinary singles, of course!)

              It is the same as the Ultimate giving a fixed 0 points to a record below number 30. Zero is not a neutral concept, or at least not in this context, it is just a number between +1 and -1.

              Calculate a chart both ways - 'counting down using 31' and 'counting up using 0' - and they produce exactly the same result. If you have an example where they differ, using the same inputs, I would be interested to see it.

              However I do think there is an aesthetic advantage in counting up, as I prefer to see number one allocated the most points rather than the least.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                The Beatles Twist And Shout EP should have been number one based on its sales figures
                But note that its large 63/64 sales figures included a second wind after the Queen Mother had rattled her jewellery to it.

                Comment


                • Twist and Shout by the Beatles could never had made number one at that point in time. It would have to knock off the top She Loves You! Let's face an expensive EP wouldn't knock a cheaper single by them off the top.
                  Even as I think T&S was a better track and dated better than She Loves You.
                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                  Comment


                  • Yeah, but the points themselves are not the problem. It's the allocating of those points to every record outside of the RR top 30 arbitrarily whether they were 32, 37, or not even in the top 50. Twist wasn't charted as an EP on RR so you can't just pull no 31 out of the bag for it. That methodology is just inaccurate.
                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                    Comment


                    • RR was doing an EP chart at the time! The BBC could have simply used that. That way they would have got the EP's charting.

                      Such as Gerry And The Pacemakers EP which reached 34 on MM and was 2 behind The Beatles at number one on RR.
                      Looking at the JULY releases on 45 Cat at least five EP's would have been selling well by the time of above chart.
                      Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                      Comment


                      • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                        Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 17th 1963

                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 17th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
                        Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
                        Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                        1 1 Sweets For My Sweet - The Seachers 1 1 1 1 1 9900
                        4 2 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 3 4 2 3 9290
                        8 3 Bad To Me - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 2 2 4 2 3 9240
                        2 4 Confessin ' (That I Love You) - Frank Ifield 4 3 3 4 2 9220
                        5 5 Twist And Shout - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 5 6 5 8 4 8360
                        3 6 Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley 6 8 6 5 5 8130
                        10 7 In Summer - Billy Fury 7 5 9 6 6 7900
                        11 8 Theme From 'The Legion's Last Patrol' - Ken Thorne 8 9 7 7 7 7720
                        7 9 Sukiyaki - Kyu Samamoto 10 12 8 11 9 7010
                        14 10 Wipe Out - The Surfaris 9 10 11 9 10 6830
                        6 11 Do Doo Ron Ron - The Crystals 11 11 10 12 8 6790
                        28 12 I'm Telling You Now - Freddie and The Dreamers 12 7 17 10 14 6060
                        16 13 I'll Never Get Over You - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 13 13 13 13 12 5970
                        9 14 Atlantis - The Shadows 14 15 12 15 11 5850
                        13 15 You Can Never Stop Me Loving You - Kenny Lynch 15 15 16 14 15 5180
                        17 16 Welcome To My World - Jim Reeves 16 17 15 19 13 4940
                        12 17 I Like It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 17 20 14 16 16 4850
                        15 18 Take These Chains From My Heart - Ray Charles 19 19 18 24 18 3890
                        27 19 You Don't Have To Be A Baby To Cry - The Caravelles 18 14 25 17 20 3630
                        18 20 It's My Party - Lesley Gore 20 22 19 20 19 3610
                        22 21 The Cruel Sea - The Dakotas 21 23 20 18 22 3370
                        19 22 I Wonder - Brenda Lee 22 24 21 23 17 3020
                        21 23 So Much In Love - The Tymes 23 21 24 21 21 2850
                        30 24 Just Like Eddie - Heinz 24 18 26 22 26 2650
                        20 25 Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 25 26 22 25 24 2360
                        23 26 By The Way - The Big Three 26 29 23 28 23 1790
                        26 27 Come On - The Rolling Stones 27 25 27 29 25 1480
                        NEW 28 Only The Heartaches - Houston Wells 28 29 29 26 29 810
                        24 29 From Me To You - The Beatles 29 28 27 570
                        NEW 30 Acapulco 1922 - Kenny Ball 27 400
                        B Dance On - Kathy Kirby 28 300
                        X The Good Life - Tony Bennett 29 27 28 290
                        25 Bo Diddley - Buddy Holly 30 150
                        B Still - Ken Dodd 30 50
                        X One Fine Day - The Chiffons 30 30
                        29 Falling - Roy Orbison
                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                        Comment


                        • It appears the BBC tiebreaked in favour of the Twist And Shout LP, as it was rising and Confessin falling. Both scored 12 points.

                          There is an online radio station called United DJs which has a 208 Top 20s show 7pm Sundays. Tonight features the Radio Luxembourg Top 20s from 1962 and 1988.
                          Last edited by Splodj; Sun May 9, 2021, 12:02.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                            It

                            There is an online radio station called United DJs which has a 208 Top 20s show 7pm Sundays. Tonight features the Radio Luxembourg Top 20s from 1962 and 1988.
                            Great discovery Splodj. Some of the other shows look good too. I'll certainly be giving this a listen
                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

                              Great discovery Splodj. Some of the other shows look good too. I'll certainly be giving this a listen
                              This is an excellent show. It has been running since March 2020. The previous editions can be found on Mixcloud.com. Just search for “208 Top 20” or “Simon Tate”.

                              Comment


                              • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 24th 1963

                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 24th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
                                Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
                                Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                3 1 Bad To Me - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 1 1 1 1 1 9900
                                1 2 Sweets For My Sweet - The Searchers 2 2 2 2 2 9570
                                2 3 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 4 5 3 4 8960
                                12 4 I'm Telling You Now - Freddie and The Dreamers 3 3 5 3 3 8940
                                7 5 In Summer - Billy Fury 5 4 6 5 5 8530
                                4 6 Confessin' (That I Love You) - Frank Ifield 6 7 4 7 4 8460
                                8 7 Theme From 'The Legion's Last Patrol' - Ken Thorne 7 9 7 6 6 7800
                                10 8 Wipe Out - The Surfaris 8= 8 9 9 10 7330
                                13 9 I'll Never Get Over You - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 8= 11 8 8 9 7260
                                5 10 Twist And Shout - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 10 10 10 10 7 7020
                                6 11 Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley 12 12 13 12 11 6150
                                11 12 Da Doo Ron Ron - The Crystals 11 14 12 13 8 6140
                                9 13 Sukiyaki - Kyu Sakamoto 14 16 11 14 14 5860
                                19 14 You Don't Have To Be A Baby To Cry - The Caravelles 13 13 14 15 12 5720
                                NEW 15 It's All In The Game - Cliff Richard 15 6 20 11 25 5330
                                24 16 Just Like Eddie - Heinz 16 16 17 16 18 4740
                                14 17 Atlantis - The Shadows 18 23 15 19 16 4250
                                16 18 Welcome To My World - Jim Reeves 17 26 16 17 13 3990
                                21 19 The Cruel Sea - The Dakotas 19 19 19 18 21 3950
                                15 20 You Can Never Stop Me Loving You - Kenny Lynch 21 21 21 20 17 3470
                                17 21 I Like It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 22 18 24 20 2630
                                22 22 I Wonder - Brenda Lee 20 24 23 26 15 2630
                                NEW 23 Dance On - Kathy Kirby 23 15 21 27 2220
                                27 24 Come On - The Rolling Stones 24= 20 27 24 1910
                                NEW 25 I Want To Stay Here - Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme 24= 18 22 1750
                                18 26 Take These Chains From My Heart - Ray Charles 26 22 19 1710
                                20 27 It's My Party - Lesley Gore 27= 24 30 22 1370
                                NEW 28 Still - Karl Denver 27= 22 23 1300
                                23 29 So Much In Love - The Tymes 30 25 28 26 1200
                                26 30 By The Way - The Big Three 29 27 28 23 1090
                                25 Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 26 29 810
                                30 Acapulco 1922 - Kenny Ball 24 29 800
                                28 Only The Heartaches - Houston Wells 29 27 28 590
                                X Surfin' USA - The Beach Boys 28 300
                                B Two Silhouettes - Del Shannon 25 300
                                B Surf City - Jan and Dean 29 30 230
                                X The Good Life - Tony Bennett 30 150
                                B Whispering - The Bachelors 30 100
                                29 From Me To You - The Beatles
                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                Comment


                                • It is more noticeable when RR lags on risers, but there are some maverick RR positions there on fallers too ...
                                  Brian Pool at 7 (10 in the others)
                                  Crystals at 8 (12-14 in the others)
                                  Brenda Lee at 15 (23-26 in the others)

                                  Meanwhile, 'She Loves You' released 23rd August.

                                  Comment


                                  • Cliff at no. 6 in NME but only 20 in MM and 25 in RR.

                                    Comment


                                    • Yeah highest in NME and Disc, as its probably the 'advance order' inclusion factor again.
                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                      Comment


                                      • She Loves You .. The record that was the catalyst for introducing me into the world of popular music and a lifetime obsession with charts. I got She Loves You and the Twist And Shout EP for Christmas among others with my new Dansette record player, then with Christmas money I received bought I Want To Hold Your Hand. I was by now totally committed to 'The Fab Four'.
                                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                        Comment


                                        • Inexplicable that EMI lost the 'She Loves You' master tapes, even before a stereo mix had been made.

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                            Inexplicable that EMI lost the 'She Loves You' master tapes, even before a stereo mix had been made.
                                            Oh, I never knew about that one. How and when did they lose the master tapes ?
                                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                            Comment


                                            • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                                              She Loves You .. The record that was the catalyst for introducing me into the world of popular music and a lifetime obsession with charts. I got She Loves You and the Twist And Shout EP for Christmas among others with my new Dansette record player, then with Christmas money I received bought I Want To Hold Your Hand. I was by now totally committed to 'The Fab Four'.
                                              Identical to my start to record collecting in December 1963. I also bought Gerry's "You'll Never Walk Alone". Seems a long time ago - but they were great times!!

                                              Comment


                                              • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                                Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 31st 1963

                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 31st 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
                                                Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
                                                Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                                1 1 Bad To Me - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 1 1 1 1 1 9900
                                                4 2 I'm Telling You Now - Freddie and The Dreamers 2 3 2 2 2 9470
                                                2 3 Sweets For My Sweet - The Searchers 3 5 3 5 3 8940
                                                9 4 I'll Never Get Over You - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 4 6 5 6 6 8400
                                                15 5 It's All In The Game - Cliff Richard 5 4 6 5 10 8380
                                                3 6 Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 6 10 4 7 8070
                                                NEW 7 She Loves You - The Beatles 7 2 12 3 12 7720
                                                8 8 Wipe Out - The Surfaris 8 8 8 9 5 7630
                                                14 9 You Don't Have To Be A Baby To Cry - The Caravelles 10 7 9 12 7 7370
                                                7 10 Theme From 'The Legion's Last Patrol' - Ken Thorne 9 9 10 8 4 7310
                                                5 11 In Summer - Billy Fury 11 12 7 10 8 7240
                                                6 12 Confessin' (That I Love You) - Frank Ifield 12 14 11 14 9 6210
                                                25 13 I Want To Stay Here - Steve Lawrence and Eydie Gorme 14 10 14 11 19 6010
                                                16 14 Just Like Eddie - Heinz 13 13 13 13 11 6000
                                                10 15 Twist And Shout - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 15 15 16 15 13 5190
                                                13 16 Sukiyaki - Kyu Sakamoto 16 18 17 16 16 4600
                                                12 17 Da Doo Ron Ron - The Crystals 17 23 15 17 14 4410
                                                23 18 Dance On - Kathy Kirby 18 16 21 18 17 4070
                                                19 19 The Cruel Sea - The Dakotas 20 19 18 21 20 3980
                                                11 20 Devil In Disguise - Elvis Presley 19 21 19 22 15 3730
                                                18 21 Welcome To My World - Jim Reeves 21 21 20 19 18 3640
                                                28 22 Still - Karl Denver 22 17 25 20 25 3030
                                                20 23 You Can Never Stop Me Loving You - Kenny Lynch 23 26 23 22 1970
                                                17 24 Atlantis - The Shadows 24= 22 30 21 1700
                                                NEW 25 Two Silhouettes - Del Shannon 26 20 23 1500
                                                24 26 Come On - The Rolling Stones 24= 25 29 27 23 1340
                                                21 27 I Like It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 30= 24 29 1110
                                                RE 28 Only The Heartaches - Houston Wells 27 27 24 26 1100
                                                RE 29 Acapulco 1922 - Kenny Ball 30= 29 26 29 1050
                                                NEW 30 I Wanna Stay Here - Miki and Griff 28 24 26 950
                                                B Surf City - Jan and Dean 29 30 25 28 490
                                                22 I Wonder - Brenda Lee 28 30 480
                                                B Whispering - The Bachelors 27 400
                                                X Surfin' USA - The Beach Boys 28 300
                                                30 By The Way - The Big Three 24 210
                                                26 Take These Chains From My Heart - Ray Charles 30 150
                                                B Searchin' - The Hollies 28 150
                                                X The Good Life - Tony Bennett 27 120
                                                27 It's My Party - Lesley Gore
                                                29 So Much In Love - The Tymes
                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                                Comment


                                                • and here they come again .. the tidal wave that will be The Beatles chart domination over the next few months begins as She Loves You crashes onto the chart shore at #7. It will go to #1 next week for the first of two spells there and will remain in the top three until January 1964, and I can always say, I saw it happen
                                                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • 'She Loves You' seems to be the point at which true Beatlemania was born. They were popular before the single was released but this seemed to be the single that took them from being popular to the next level.

                                                    Comment

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