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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    I wonder how often people from the same town (excluding knocking yourself off) have replaced each other at no.1?

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    So why did 'Deck of cards' re-enter from January 1960?
    I treated Deck Of Cards as a re-entry brain because it was already a chart hit back at the end of 1959 and when I get around to (if the demand is there) compiling The Ultimate 1950's Charts 'Deck' will appear there.

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    So why did 'Deck of cards' re-enter from January 1960?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Liverpool dethrones Liverpool, and The Beatles capture a second #1 single. But they are looking over their shoulder as yet another Liverpool act debut on the chart, Billy J. Kramer and the Dakotas and they are going to challenge in a few weeks.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 4th 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 4th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 From Me To You - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    1 2 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    3 3 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 3 3 3 3 3 9240
    9 4 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 4 5 5 4 6 8600
    4 5 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 6 7 4 7 5 8430
    5 6 Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield 5 4 7 6 4 8360
    11 7 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 7 6 6 5 7 8270
    8 8 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 8 9 9 8 8 7340
    6 9 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 9 10 8 9 9 7310
    7 10 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 10 12 10 10 11 6700
    25 11 Scarlett O'Hara - Jet Harris and Tony Meehan 11 8 13 12 15 6430
    15 12 Losing You - Brenda Lee 12 13 12 13 13 6090
    12 13 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 13 16 11 14 12 5920
    10 14 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 14 15 14 15 10 5580
    27 15 Two Kinds Of Teardrops - Del Shannon 15 11 17 11 17 5520
    13 16 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 17 17 15 18 16 4900
    21 17 He's So Fine - The Chiffons 18 14 18 17 18 4740
    14 18 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 16 19 16 16 14 4710
    16 19 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 19 24 19 20 19 3410
    18 20 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva 20 21 21 19 22 3370
    19 21 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 21 25 22 21 20 2780
    22 22 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 22= 26 24 24 25 2080
    24 23 Count On Me - Julie Grant 24 23 25 26 27 2070
    17 24 Charmaine - The Bachelors 25= 20 21 1950
    20 25 Robot - The Tornados 22= 23 22 23 1890
    30 26 Casablanca - Kenny Ball 27 18 28 28 1840
    RE 27 Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 25= 20 29 25 29 1760
    26 28 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 28 30 27 23 26 1250
    NEW 29 Do You Want To Know A Secret - Billy J. Kramer and The Dakotas 30 22 900
    23 30 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal 26 30 780
    B Young Lovers - Paul and Paula 29 30 29 24 410
    B Pipeline - The Chantays 27 400
    B My Way - Eddie Cochran 28 30 350
    X It's My Way Of Loving You - Miki and Griff 29 200
    X Just Listen To My Heart - The Spotnicks 27 200
    29 Code Of Love - Mike Sarne 30 150
    X Some Other Guy - The Big Three 28 150
    28 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Its all a dastardly RR plot to forestall the chart in which they finally make the Beatles number one.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    As requested, posts moved to a new topic.

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  • brian05
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    Thanks for that brian05. Which version of Past Masters was that, LP, CD, original, reissue, box set, all of the above?
    As Woz1234 says it comes from the 2009 remasters box set.

    Supposedly the Live at the BBC CD Vol 2 now reclaims PPM as #1 as well.
    On the sleeve notes it says on page 10,
    "Throughout 1963 number one records followed in quick succession: Please please me, From me to you, She loves you, I want to hold your hand."

    On page 22 the note for track 9 says,
    "Please please me: This is the eleventh of twelve BBC radio performances of their first UK number one (on most charts, including that used by the BBC)."

    Leave a comment:


  • Woz1234
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    Thanks for that brian05. Which version of Past Masters was that, LP, CD, original, reissue, box set, all of the above? This is more fuel to the fire that EMI has changed their stance on Please Please Me in later years. After originally claiming PPM was #1 on the PPM album and several EPs (1963), they later denied it with The Beatles 20 Greatest Hits LP (1982) and the '1' CD (2000). And have now flipped back. Supposedly the Live at the BBC CD Vol 2 now reclaims PPM as #1 as well. Glad to see EMI has come back around. Of course, they now need to fix and reissue the '1' CD to make this right !!
    Past Masters by Kevin Howlett quote is from 2009 CD Re-Issue The Beatles – Past Masters (2009, CD) - Discogs

    On 1988 CD which I've have, says on "From Me To You",

    There is still some doubt whether "Please Please Me" was a number one single in the British charts, since it was so in three of the four published weekly rankings but only made the runners-up spot in the now widely quoted fourth. (There was no one accepted 'record industry chart' then).
    Last edited by Woz1234; Sun April 25, 2021, 20:12.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Thanks for that brian05. Which version of Past Masters was that, LP, CD, original, reissue, box set, all of the above? This is more fuel to the fire that EMI has changed their stance on Please Please Me in later years. After originally claiming PPM was #1 on the PPM album and several EPs (1963), they later denied it with The Beatles 20 Greatest Hits LP (1982) and the '1' CD (2000). And have now flipped back. Supposedly the Live at the BBC CD Vol 2 now reclaims PPM as #1 as well. Glad to see EMI has come back around. Of course, they now need to fix and reissue the '1' CD to make this right !!

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    From the sleeve notes on Beatles - Past Masters by Kevin Howlett.

    "Please please me was released on 11th January 1963. The single topped all but one of the UK charts, including the BBC's list used for its Pick of the Pops programme. For British fans, if DJ Alan Freeman announced that it was a number one, then a genuine number one it was."

    So tell that to the OCC.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Lennon & McCartney were dismissive of 'Thank You Girl', the B-side, but it was often played by John Peel on his hippy Perfumed Garden radio show in 1967. Also it was chosen as the 4th track on their second EP 'Beatles Hits', although I suppose they only had the choice of 3 B-sides.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Beatles don't waste any time and take a jump from 15 to 2.

    One of my favourite records from 1963 debuts at 25, Jet Harris and Tony Meehan with Scarlett O'Hara. Where are records of this calibre now. Gone I fear.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 27th 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 27th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 1 2 1 1 1 9800
    15 2 From Me To You - The Beatles 2 1 3 2 3 9490
    2 3 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 3 3 2 3 2 9420
    6 4 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 4 5 4 4 5 8780
    13 5 Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield 5 4 8 5 6 8200
    3 6 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 7 6 6 6 10 8130
    7 7 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 6 7 7 9 4 7910
    5 8 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 8 11 5 8 7 7770
    16 9 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 9 7 10 7 11 7350
    4 10 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 11 10 9 10 9 7110
    10 11 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 10 7 11 11 8 7090
    11 12 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 12 12 12 12 12 6270
    8 13 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 13= 14 13 13 14 5810
    9 14 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 13= 13 14 14 13 5740
    20 15 Losing You - Brenda Lee 15 15 16 15 16 5100
    12 16 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 17 18 15 18 17 4770
    14 17 Charmaine - The Bachelors 16 19 17 16 15 4530
    17 18 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva 18 20 18 17 19 4110
    21 19 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 19 21 21 20 18 3440
    18 20 Robot - The Tornados 20 23 19 21 21 3400
    30 21 He's So Fine - The Chiffons 21 17 23 22 22 3320
    19 22 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 22 20 23 20 2380
    23 23 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal 24= 26 22 26 25 2280
    28 24 Count On Me - Julie Grant 24= 24 24 27 24 2160
    NEW 25 Scarlett O'Hara - Jet Harris And Tony Meehan 23 16 19 2100
    24 26 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 26 27 25 25 23 1840
    NEW 27 Two Kinds Of Teardrops - Del Shannon 27 22 24 1250
    22 28 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown 28 26 26 900
    NEW 29 Code Of Love - Mike Sarne 29 27 29 29 760
    29 30 Casablanca - Kenny Ball 30 24 700
    25 Please Please Me - The Beatles 28 30 480
    27 Cupboard Love - John Leyton 29 27 420
    X Can You Forgive Me - Karl Denver 28 300
    26 Hey Paula - Paul and Paula 30 28 240
    B Deck Of Cards - Wink Martindale 29 200
    Our Day Will Come - Ruby and The Romantics 28 150
    X It's My Way Of Loving You - Miki and Griff 30 100
    X Some Other Guy - The Big Three 30 50

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    The Beatles bandwagon gains more momentum as From Me To You storms in at #15.

    George Harrison, err sorry, The Chiffons are new at #30
    It's amazing how Brian Epstein is cranking out these Beatles records before the previous record has had a chance to fall off the charts. I wonder if that could have hurt sales of the older record, hmmm...

    Regarding George and The Chiffons, for those who don't know George has said he did NOT copy "He's So Fine" for "My Sweet Lord", rather he was copying "Oh Happy Day" by the Edwin Hawkins Singers. All 3 records very similar...

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Beatles bandwagon gains more momentum as From Me To You storms in at #15.

    George Harrison, err sorry, The Chiffons are new at #30

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 20th 1963

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 20th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    2 2 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    6 3 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 3 3 5 4 3 8890
    3 4 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 5 4 4 5 6 8800
    4 5 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 4 7 3 3 5 8780
    11 6 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 6 5 7 6 7 8170
    9 7 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 7 8 6 8 4 8010
    7 8 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 8 9 9 7 8 7390
    5 9 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 9 12 8 9 9 7110
    14 10 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 10 11 10 12 10 6730
    17 11 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 11 14 12 11 13 6090
    8 12 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 12 16 11 13 11 6000
    23 13 Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield 13 10 15 14 14 5860
    10 14 Charmaine - The Bachelors 14 15 13 16 12 5620
    NEW 15 From Me To You - The Beatles 15 6 19 10 23 5590
    19 16 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 16 13 16 15 15 5330
    12 17 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomaotion - Little Eva 17 18 14 17 18 4940
    15 18 Robot - The Tornados 18 19 17 18 17 4370
    13 19 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 19 21 18 19 16 4000
    24 20 Losing You - Brenda Lee 20 17 22 20 20 3630
    20 21 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 21 22 20 21 19 3410
    16 22 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown 22 23 21 22 21 3050
    22 23 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal 23 20 24 24 27 2620
    26 24 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 26 24 27 26 28 1640
    18 25 Please Please Me - The Beatles 24 23 28 22 1620
    21 26 Hey Paula - Paul and Paula 25 29 25 25 24 1610
    25 27 Cupboard Love - John Leyton 27 26 23 25 1330
    NEW 28 Count On Me - Julie Grant 28= 28 29 30 26 800
    NEW 29 Casablanca - Kenny Ball 25 600
    NEW 30 He's So Fine - The Chiffons 27 27 600
    B Code Of Love - Mike Sarne 28= 28 29 30 580
    X Can You Forgive Me - Karl Denver 30 26 500
    27 Tell Him - Billie Davis 30 29 210
    30 Our Day Will Come - Ruby and The Romantics 30 100
    28 The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee
    29 One Broken Heart For Sale - Elvis Presley

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    My reading of the article is that RR received the income from selling on the charts to newspapers.

    There is a distinction between saying that the sales for 31+ were too close for accuracy and that they feared hyped records, which the security/verification process was designed to eliminate.

    As mentioned before, many ILR stations chose to have only a Top 30.
    I think that's true, if the 31 to 50 positions were too close to call that is the area that some suspect records would thrive in falling below the radar even with checks, and those positions were always best used as a guide, 'Breakers', really. The BBC didn't get many things right chartwise but deciding to stick with just the Top 30 was a wise move.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 13th 1963

    Let's hope RR and RM agree this week

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 13th 1963 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 100 150 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 How Do You Do It - Gerry and The Pacemakers 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    3 2 From A Jack To A King - Ned Miller 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    2 3 Foot Tapper - The Shadows 3 3 3 3 3 9240
    6 4 Rhythm Of The Rain - The Cascades 4 4 5 4 5 8730
    4 5 Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard 6 5 4 7 6 8600
    9 6 Brown Eyed Handsome Man - Buddy Holly 5 7 6 5 4 8260
    7 7 Say Wonderful Things - Ronnie Carroll 7 5 7 6 7 8170
    5 8 Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury 8 9 8 10 9 7360
    11 9 The Folk Singer - Tommy Roe 9 10 9 8 10 7180
    8 10 Charmaine - The Bachelors 10 11 10 12 8 6790
    20 11 Say I Won't Be There - The Springfields 11 8 15 9 11 6400
    15 12 Let's Turkey Trot / Old Smokey Locomotion - Little Eva 12 14 13 13 13 5840
    12 13 Island Of Dreams - The Springfields 14 16 11 15 15 5780
    17 14 In Dreams - Roy Orbison 13 15 16 14 12 5270
    16 15 Robot - The Tornados 17 16 12 21 19 5210
    10 16 That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown 16 19 14 18 14 4910
    21 17 Walk Like A Man - The Four Seasons 15 13 19 17 16 4750
    13 18 Please Please Me - The Beatles 19 22 17 20 17 3970
    28 19 Can't Get Used To Losing You - Andy Williams 18 18 25 11 21 3500
    22 20 The End Of The World - Skeeter Davis 20 21 21 19 20 3430
    14 21 Hey Paula - Paul and Paula 21 25 18 25 18 3240
    25 22 Mr Bass Man - Johnny Cymbal 23 22 20 22 24 3210
    NEW 23 Nobody's Darlin' But Mine - Frank Ifield 22 12 28 16 30 3130
    30 24 Losing You - Brenda Lee 24 20 26 24 27 2320
    23 25 Cupboard Love - John Leyton 26 29 22 23 22 2220
    27 26 So It Will Always Be - The Everly Brothers 25 24 27 27 23 1740
    19 27 Tell Him - Billie Davis 27 23 30 25 1430
    18 28 The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee 30 24 26 29 1360
    24 29 One Broken Heart For Sale - Elvis Presley 28 27 29 28 790
    NEW 30 Our Day Will Come - Ruby and The Romantics 29 26 500
    B Code Of Love - Mike Sarne 28 29 400
    B Count On Me - Julie Grant 30 26 250
    26 The Wayward Wind - Frank Ifield 30 150
    B He's So Fine - The Chiffons 28 150
    29 All Alone Am I - Brenda Lee

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    It's a J Walter Thompson Company News publication dated June 20, 1969 and includes an article on the new BMRB chart.
    The article says: "It all began back in 1966 when the Sunday Times ran an article in which a record company questioned the absence of one of their LPs from the charts, despite its high sales." I'm curious; what was that LP?

    It also says that the BBC and RR put in the same amount of money. On the face of it the broadcast rights seem more valuable than the press rights (although I seem to recall that when The Sun went tabloid it took the chart) so I wonder if this is the main reason the BBC took only the Top 30 - to redress this imbalance somewhat by giving RR/RM the exclusive rights to publish positions below 30.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post

    Not necessarily. The RR (4th April) could have got it wrong, corrected it and sent it to RM (6th April).
    The RM chart makes more sense if you consider several weeks.
    Did Cliff really go 1, 2, 1, 6?
    It is important to remember though that all RM did was carry the RR chart in the same way the music papers carried the American Billboard or Cashbox chart. RM just had permission to use and print the RR chart, it did not contribute or was involved in any way in its production. So it was not two chart producing papers disagreeing.

    If RR had made an error it would almost certainly have corrected this also in its own chart and not just sent the amended chart to RM. That would not seem logical.

    Given Record Retailers long history as you have seen of being the odd one out many times in chart positioning it is not unrealistic to see Cliff regain the chart summit.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Which begs the question: how many more times did RR and RM disagree 1962 to 1969?

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    Not necessarily. The RR (4th April) could have got it wrong, corrected it and sent it to RM (6th April).
    And the mistake could have boiled down to one thing - that they discovered they had allocated too many points to Cliff.

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    The only thing I will add is that as RM took the chart from RR the error in the transmission of information is likeliest at the RM end.
    Not necessarily. The RR (4th April) could have got it wrong, corrected it and sent it to RM (6th April).
    The RM chart makes more sense if you consider several weeks.
    Did Cliff really go 1, 2, 1, 6?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by chartwatcherdl View Post

    I have a scan of the actual chart from RM for April 6th and can confirm that the positions shown were as follows:

    1 (10) Gerry & Pacemakers
    2 (4) Ned Miller
    3 (2) Cliff & Shadows
    4 (1) Shadows
    Thanks for that info chartwatcherdl. That is an interesting source chart.

    That was also what Tony Jasper had in his Top Twenty Book also which he obviously lifted from RM rather than RR. Soooo ! Which chart was correct ! We will never definitively know which made the error as both at the time printed a different top four and neither corrected.

    The only thing I will add is that as RM took the chart from RR the error in the transmission of information is likeliest at the RM end.

    At least The Ultimate smoothes it out placing Gerry on top consistent with all other charts.

    Leave a comment:

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