The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Brian, the BMRB numbers look reasonable. However I don't think MM and NME would have dropped to 100 that quickly / Feb 69. From what we know from Alan and Dave and maybe other sources, MM and NME did drop, the question is when. Alan says later, Dave says in 1969, but Dave doesn't say WHEN in 1969, it could have been Dec 31. I just wouldn't think MM and NME would have dropped the very month that BMRB arrived on the scene. They would have keep on chooglin' till some time later.

BMRB was not immediately accepted by everyone in the 'industry', especially with all the early goofs and ties and low diary turn-ins. Many still went with the superior MM and NME charts, thus no reason for them to reduce until sometime after they lost influence. I need to re-read Alan's and Dave's postings.

Plus maybe there's info in MM and NME themselves. The now WorldRadioHistory website has every issue of MM from 1969, and some from 1970/71, and all of NME from 1969. Maybe there are articles that point to when a drop occurred...

I've had a good look last night and this morning through all the issues of NME and MM for 1969 and 1970 on the World Radio History site but don't see any reference to a reduction in store poll size for those years.
It looks like it was never mentioned when it happened.

All we know is it was still reportedly 200/250 respectively in February 1969 and most likely the stated 100 by March 1971. I believe the 200/250 would have held through 1969. I say this because MM never mentioned a reduction in store sample taking please and still promoted their chart through 1969 in their paper as the most accurate, and continuing to list the number of daily newspapers still carrying their chart. I don't believe they would have done this if they had cut back at this time. I believe NME would also likely have continued as they were for 1969 in line with this.

So, I believe a reduction in stages could be applied throughout 1970 to reach the 100 each by March 1971. I think this is both the most practical and fairest way to approach this.

Let it be written, Let it be done

[MrTibbs]

I think his best hit was, That's What Love Will Do, I'm charting that right now as I work on March 1963.

[Woz1234]

I Like Joe Brown got his Best Of Album a few years ago.

[MrTibbs]

You'll have to wait and see

[Splodj]

I saw Joe Brown say (half jokingly) that his only number one had been taken away from him. So it will be interesting to see if the Ultimate gives it back!

[MrTibbs]

And the party is almost over for Lonnie. He has been a chart stalwart and a huge influence on other artists since he first charted in 1956. He will have one more Top 20 hit later this year and then be swept away amidst so many other regulars we see here as Beatlemania and the other new British groups move in and take hold changing the British music scene for ever.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 26th 1962

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 26th 1962								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	8100
2	2	Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers					2=	3	2	3	2	7700
3	3	I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard					2=	2	3	2	3	7690
4	4	Wonderful Land - The Shadows					6	6	4	5	6	7020
5	5	Love Letters - Ketty Lester					5	4	5	8	4	6980
8	6	As You Like It - Adam Faith					4	5	6	4	5	6960
6	7	Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee					7	11	7	6	7	6210
12	8	Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury					8	8	9	7	11	6060
7	9	Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon					9	14	8	9	8	5680
21	10	Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland					11	10	12	11	10	5400
18	11	Come Outside - Mike Sarne					12	6	14	10	17	5340
10	12	When My Little Girl is Smiling - Jimmy Justice					10	16	11	14	9	4910
28	13	I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane					13	9	17	12	18	4640
13	14	The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams					15	15	15	15	13	4380
16	15	Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk					14	13	10		12	4320
9	16	Hey Baby - Bruce Channel					16	23	13	13	14	4030
14	17	Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro					18	17	19	16	23	3430
15	18	The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan					19	22	18	19	19	3110
11	19	Dream Baby - Roy Orbison						26	16	20	22	2870
20	20	Lonely City - John Leyton					20	25	20	17	20	2720
27	21	The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball					17	12	30	18	24	2490
24	22	Everybody's Twistin' - Frank Sinatra						21	23		29	1740
19	23	Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke						20	25		28	1630
22	24	Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley							21		16	1550
30	25	A Picture Of You - Joe Brown						17	29		27	1460
17	26	Never Goodbye - Karl Denver							24		15	1250
23	27	Young World - Ricky Nelson							22		26	1140
26	28	When My Little Girl is Smiling - Craig Douglas							26		21	850
29	29	Lover Please - The Vernons Girls						23				640
NEW	30	How Can I Meet Her - The Everly Brothers						27			25	500
B		Unsquare Dance - Dave Brubeck							27			440
25		King Of Clowns - Neil Sedaka							28		30	360
B		Besame Mucho - Jet Harris						28				240
B		Deep In The Heart Of Texas - Duane Eddy						28				240
		Swinging In The Rain - Norman Vaughan						28				240
B		Jezebel - Marty Wilde						28				240
		Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard						19

[brian05]

I have a Record Retailer for 4th October 1969 priced at 2s 6d (old money!) bought in a newsagent shop.
It has the Top 20 for October 12th 1961.

[MrTibbs]

The BMRB chart didn't come cheap. Just read in a 1969 edition of MM that the BBC's contribution to the chart back then was £5000 a year.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 19th 1962

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 19th 1962								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
9	1	Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley					1	1	2	1	2	7960
1	2	Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers					2	3	1	2	1	7890
11	3	I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard					3	2	4	3	4	7500
2	4	Wonderful Land - The Shadows					4	5	3	4	3	7350
6	5	Love Letters - Ketty Lester					6	4	5	8	6	6920
3	6	Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee					5	6	6	5	5	6830
4	7	Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon					8	8	7	7	8	6370
16	8	As You Like It - Adam Faith					7	7	10	6	7	6200
5	9	Hey Baby - Bruce Channel					9	10	8	11	10	5840
7	10	When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Jimmy Justice					10	9	10	13	9	5630
8	11	Dream Baby - Roy Orbison					12	14	9	12	14	5240
19	12	Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury					11	12	14	9	15	4970
10	13	The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams					13	13	13	14	12	4840
20	14	Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro					16	16	18	10	26	3830
14	15	The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan					19	20	15	18	17	3710
15	16	Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk					15	18	12		13	3670
13	17	Never Goodbye - Karl Denver					17	22	20	15	11	3330
29	18	Come Outside - Mike Sarne					18	11	23	17	29	3240
12	19	Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke					14	15	17		18	3210
28	20	Lonely City - John Leyton						17	24	19	25	2670
NEW	21	Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland						26	21	16	19	2610
17	22	Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley					20		16		16	2100
23	23	Young World - Ricky Nelson						27	18		21	2050
21	24	Everybody's Twistin' - Frank Sinatra						19	25		22	1890
25	25	King Of Clowns - Neil Sedaka						21	28		23	1370
18	26	When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Craig Douglas							22		20	1320
NEW	27	The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball						22		20		1270
NEW	28	I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane						25	29		28	790
NEW	29	Lover Please - The Vernons Girls						22				720
24	30	Theme From 'Z Cars' - Johnny Keating							27		24	650
22		Tell Me What He Said - Helen Shapiro							26			550
B		A Picture Of You - Joe Brown						28				240
B		How Can I Meet Her - The Everly Brothers						29				160
26		Theme From 'Dr. Kildare' - Johnny Spence							30		30	140
27		Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker									27	120
		Johnny Angel - Patti Lynn						30				80
B		Jezebel - Marty Wilde						30				80
30		Theme From 'Maigret' - Joe Loss

[Richard M White]

Shouldn't that read "changed to Sat -Fri in 1975" ?

I remember reading somewhere it was because the postal service stopped working Sundays!

The week was changed from "Mon-Sat" to "Sat-Fri" and yes Tony gave that very explanation in the book

[MrTibbs]

Brian, the BMRB numbers look reasonable. However I don't think MM and NME would have dropped to 100 that quickly / Feb 69. From what we know from Alan and Dave and maybe other sources, MM and NME did drop, the question is when. Alan says later, Dave says in 1969, but Dave doesn't say WHEN in 1969, it could have been Dec 31. I just wouldn't think MM and NME would have dropped the very month that BMRB arrived on the scene. They would have keep on chooglin' till some time later.

BMRB was not immediately accepted by everyone in the 'industry', especially with all the early goofs and ties and low diary turn-ins. Many still went with the superior MM and NME charts, thus no reason for them to reduce until sometime after they lost influence. I need to re-read Alan's and Dave's postings.

Plus maybe there's info in MM and NME themselves. The now WorldRadioHistory website has every issue of MM from 1969, and some from 1970/71, and all of NME from 1969. Maybe there are articles that point to when a drop occurred...

I think that's a valid point. Of course MM and NME wouldn't immediately drop at the beginning of the BMRB chart run when I think about it. I suppose it's reasonable to think they would carefully watch for a bit to see what it would deliver, how it would be accepted, if indeed the project would fall apart and be abandoned even.
Like you say MM and NME still had a large readership following their charts so no it would not immediately affect them.

So it is a case of when like you say. At some point in 1969 as Dave said, or early seventies like Alan said.
It may well have been a proportionate reduction too between '69 and early seventies.

I don't think there is any info out there (unless one of you whizz kids out there know better and let me know) on when and how they actually reduced. I too will look over the World Radio History site too for any possible clues.

Worst case scenario I think, failing that we can't pin down dates any further is to apply a gradual reduction strategy to them both (the opposite of what I did for BMRB) and over the 2 year period gradually reduce from 250/200 to 100 apiece.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Based on this here is what I am inclined to do once I get around to working on Feb'69 in around a month (I'm on February '63 right now).

Store Returns to be used 15th February 1969 to 20th March 1971 (end of postal strike)

BMRB 60 - Feb 69 to July 69
BMRB 90 - Aug 69 to Jan 70
BMRB 120 - Feb 70 to July 70
BMRB 150 - Aug 70 to Jan 71
BMRB 100 - Feb 71 to Mar 71 (BMRB reduced the chart to a Top 40 as reduced diaries returned due to postal strike)

MM - 100 Feb 69 to Mar 71

NME - 100 Feb 69 TO Mar 71

Do those figures look a good bet for working with ?

Brian, the BMRB numbers look reasonable. However I don't think MM and NME would have dropped to 100 that quickly / Feb 69. From what we know from Alan and Dave and maybe other sources, MM and NME did drop, the question is when. Alan says later, Dave says in 1969, but Dave doesn't say WHEN in 1969, it could have been Dec 31. I just wouldn't think MM and NME would have dropped the very month that BMRB arrived on the scene. They would have keep on chooglin' till some time later.

BMRB was not immediately accepted by everyone in the 'industry', especially with all the early goofs and ties and low diary turn-ins. Many still went with the superior MM and NME charts, thus no reason for them to reduce until sometime after they lost influence. I need to re-read Alan's and Dave's postings.

Plus maybe there's info in MM and NME themselves. The now WorldRadioHistory website has every issue of MM from 1969, and some from 1970/71, and all of NME from 1969. Maybe there are articles that point to when a drop occurred...

[Metalweb]

According to Tony Jasper's The 70s: A Book of Records, the chart week changed from Sat-Fri in 1975 (doesn't say when) and reverted back to Mon-Sat "from the end of September 1978" - the chart week then changed again for 2 months in Jan & Feb 1982 from Friday - Thursday resulting in numerous yo yo performances, in the same way Graham explains above

Shouldn't that read "changed to Sat -Fri in 1975" ?

I remember reading somewhere it was because the postal service stopped working Sundays!

[Richard M White]

I couldn't agree more!

[MrTibbs]

Yeah Richard, the rules were often changed along the way and the goal posts moved. Unfortunately 'Official' doesn't always mean accurate.

[Richard M White]

According to Tony Jasper's The 70s: A Book of Records, the chart week changed from Sat-Fri in 1975 (doesn't say when) and reverted back to Mon-Sat "from the end of September 1978" - the chart week then changed again for 2 months in Jan & Feb 1982 from Friday - Thursday resulting in numerous yo yo performances, in the same way Graham explains above

[Graham76man]

Neither Smiths or Boots were part of the shops used in 1971. They still were not on board in 1976 when Record Mirror ran an article. Woolies joined at the start of 1975. The stores were not taking part because they didn't want to give sales information to competing firms.
As somebody pointed out to me the other week on this forum, BMRB changed the sales week in 1976, so it ran from Friday to Thursday. This resulted in some records getting higher slots in their chart, so instead of a record being at 25, which for example could be the furthest it goes. It lands at 20 in the adjusted chart. As it takes in the "quarter" sales of the following week. But in the following week it's in decline and the quarter sales help keep it in the top 40, but lower than 25. The main effect of this week change was on Top of The Pops. So after TOTP performance a record goes into decline, then in the next chart it goes up! For example Tina Charles was on Top of The Pops on Thursday, but on the chart after the show she fell out of the top 50. Then the following week she returns to the chart. Another effect is to shift the number one change, making BMRB chart slower at changing the top seller, by one week. Then it seems that BMRB introduced a policy on records that were declining in sales, removing them before they would have dropped out of the top 50.
In many ways I think this makes the 1976 BMRB chart one of the worst charts. I don't know how long they kept the altered week.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 12th 1962

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 12th 1962								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
3	1	Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers					1	1	2	1	2	7960
1	2	Wonderful Land - The Shadows					2	1	1	4	1	7950
5	3	Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee					3	5	5	5	3	7080
4	4	Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon					4	4	4	8	5	7060
2	5	Hey Baby - Bruce Channel					5	9	3	6	4	6900
10	6	Love Letters - Ketty Lester					6	8	6	7	6	6540
7	7	When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Jimmy Justice					7=	6	8	9	12	6200
6	8	Dream Baby - Roy Orbison					7=	10	7	11	7	6040
NEW	9	Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley					7=	3	14	2	16	6010
12	10	The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams					10	12	11	12	8	5360
NEW	11	I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard					11	6	19	3	20	5050
8	12	Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke					12	14	12	17	11	4750
11	13	Never Goodbye - Karl Denver					13	16	15	16	10	4340
16	14	The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan					14	13	16	20	9	4300
15	15	Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk					15	15	10		15	4070
27	16	As You Like It - Adam Faith					16	11	21	10	23	3990
9	17	Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley					17	20	9		14	3810
14	18	When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Craig Douglas					18	20	17	18	13	3610
NEW	19	Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury						19	23	14	26	2840
NEW	20	Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro					19=	17	26	13	24	2780
20	21	Everybody's Twistin' - Frank Sinatra						17	25	15	25	2760
13	22	Tell Me What He Said - Helen Shapiro					19=		13		17	2400
21	23	Young World - Ricky Nelson						23	20		19	2210
17	24	Theme From 'Z Cars' - Johnny Keating							18		18	1820
24	25	King Of Clowns - Neil Sedaka						27	28	19	27	1370
18	26	Theme From 'Dr. Kildare' - Johnny Spence							22		21	1290
19	27	Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker						26	24		28	1260
NEW	28	Lonely City - John Leyton						24	29			780
NEW	29	Come Outside - Mike Sarne						22				720
22	30	Theme From 'Maigret' - Joe Loss							27		22	710
B		Lover Please - The Vernons Girls						25				480
		Johnny Angel - Shelley Fabares						27				320
		Love Me Warm And Tender - Paul Anka						29			29	220
25		Slow Twistin' - Chubby Checker							30			110
		Don't Break The Heart That Loves You - Connie Francis						30				80
29		Softly As I Leave You - Matt Monro									30	30
23		Wimoweh - Karl Denver
26		A Hole In The Ground - Bernard Cribbins
28		The Young Ones - Cliff Richard
30		Caterina - Perry Como

[Metalweb]

^
Looking at the two sales reports I have the amount of sales needed to chart at number 50 was 178 (Week 31, 1974) and 116 (Week 31, 1975). Number 30 - the broadcast part of the chart - was 430 (1974) and 529 (1975). These are the sales which would be recorded in a 250-shop chart panel so less than a sale per shop to chart inside the top 50 (not every shop may have stocked a wider range of singles) and 2+ copies per shop inside the top 30. For anyone interested, the number 1 single sold 3,821 in Week 31, 1974 (3rd week of 'Rock Your Baby' by George McCrae) and 4,185 in Week 31, 1975 (the sole week at the top for 'Barbados' by Typically Tropical).

I believe the multiplier which would be applied at the time to turn chart panel sales into total market sales was unofficially either 16 or 17 so 'Rock Your Baby' would be on around 61k to 64k while 'Barbados' would be on 67k to 71k.

This excellent thread gives the panel sales recorded for the No.50 single for most weeks throughout 1974.

Varies between 150 and 200 before climbing in December!

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...blers%60/page2

[MrTibbs]

Found it. Popscene forum in a thread entitled 'Single chart compilers?' Dave Taylor wrote:

"In 1969, both NME and MM took a lower sample of shops. Slipping back to 100 a piece. By the 80s, it shrunk even more to like 70 shops."

Great detective work Splodge, that solves a major problem for me in respect of knowing what reasonable number of store returns to use from Feb '69 for NME and MM.

For BMRB, I also think both Robbie's and Robin's info is useful. It is obvious, and evidenced, from the two reports that Robbie quoted that even in the mid seventies BMRB at most were only using 225 - 250 diaries that were actually received ( and even some of those I believe would have been inadmissible due to errors) so lets say around 225 in use.

But we also know, and again supported by lots of evidence from Alan Smith, Dave Taylor, among other sources that in the initial years BMRB were not polling anything like that figure. So this is where I think Robin's suggestion is helpful that increases in polled diary returns be incrementally applied throughout the initial years. This makes sense and is a credible approach.

So, again with what we know, it is likely that by the time Smiths and Boots came on board in Spring 1971 that is the point when the BMRB chart was realistically polling 200 plus diaries. So again it is probable the diary return was increasing and building toward that figure throughout 1969 and 1970.

Based on this here is what I am inclined to do once I get around to working on Feb'69 in around a month (I'm on February '63 right now).

Store Returns to be used 15th February 1969 to 20th March 1971 (end of postal strike)

BMRB 60 - Feb 69 to July 69
BMRB 90 - Aug 69 to Jan 70
BMRB 120 - Feb 70 to July 70
BMRB 150 - Aug 70 to Jan 71
BMRB 100 - Feb 71 to Mar 71 (BMRB reduced the chart to a Top 40 as reduced diaries returned due to postal strike)

MM - 100 Feb 69 to Mar 71

NME - 100 Feb 69 TO Mar 71

Do those figures look a good bet for working with ?

[Splodj]

Found it. Popscene forum in a thread entitled 'Single chart compilers?' Dave Taylor wrote:

"In 1969, both NME and MM took a lower sample of shops. Slipping back to 100 a piece. By the 80s, it shrunk even more to like 70 shops."

[Splodj]

I have to admit I am sceptical about this idea that MM and NME maintained their 250/200 sampling for years (if indeed it had been that high anyway) if they did not want to pay to join the new scheme. Despite its teething problems BMRB were successful in establishing themselves as the primary chart, sidelining the others which I would expect to cut back quite quickly.

And although on this site AS says that (in the 'early 70s') MM went to 200 and NME 100, I seem to recall him or Dave saying elsewhere they both went to 100.

[Graham76man]

^
Record labels would need to know which dealers were part of the current week's chart panel so the amount of shops to target should not only total 300 (not 150) but also should change each week, or at least some should change each week.

That was not too difficult to know by the record companies. So they could still target a smaller amount such as 150. The BMRB list would have been a secret, so everyone knew it. And even if you didn't, record company reps had access to the stores with ease. Some could even spot the BMRB diary on the counter. THE BMRB even told the shop to fill it in on purchase of a record. So it couldn't have locked in the manger's office! Reps probably looked at it to see how sales were going! It was later common practice for the reps to fill them in! One record company rep (on Sheffield Forum) said that he knew which stores were filling in the charts for BMRB. He said that Bradleys store in Sheffield was the main one. I will post the e-mail from the rep (he was a South Yorkshire rep) I got below:

As for the NME and Melody Maker charts of the 60's, in a biography of Joe Meek he had the lists of chart shops. Around 60 were in the London area alone. He would buy up 10 to 20 copies in each shop get it into the chart, then phone around DJ's saying look it's in the charts! They would do the rest.

I should point out that hyping of this kind wasn't really necessary most of the time. Since most of the records being targeted in the 60's and early 70's were often selling anyway. For example The Small Faces - Lazy Sunday. It's not until the after 1975 that unknown records were targeted for the charts and it got more sophisticated in how it was done. Free records, gifts to store owners etc.

Email:
Bradleys mid to late 60's. Circles-Rotherham, Bradleys-Fargate. Think Casa Disco -Barnsley.

How about these records being hyped back in the charts: Seven days are too long - Chuck Wood. Long Cool woman in a Black dress - Hollies. I got both copies first time around and they were finally hype into the charts 9 months after the original release dates.

[Robbie]

I would use 250 for BMRB. Regardless of how many shops actually contributed sales information each week to the chart the BMRB calculated sales as if 250 shops had reported sales (and continued to do so until 1997) through a weighting system of sales.