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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    ^
    It's the first time I've been able to compare chart movement across the three charts for the early BMRB period so a big thanks to MrTibbs for the layout presentation of the UAC. It means I've been able to spot things like the chart progress of 'Israelites'.
    I think the earlier assessment of sales versus points accurately accounts for the good example Israelites provides Robbie. When all charts used points 30 points for example meant 30 points across all the charts equally irregardless of store size, but sales does alter this a bit. As mentioned in an earlier post larger stores selling big numbers of a record will obviously differ from the amount a small independent will sell of the same record so whereas 30 points from HMV would also be 30 points from Joe's Records, now, it could be 250 from HMV but still 30 (as in points) from Joe's.

    What I am trying to highlight here is BMRB positions as a sales chart, but in comparison how MM and NME still view current sales reflected on their points system. So you can take your pick, you go with the BMRB sales chart as the barometer of public opinion at this time with a still minimal return of diaries or you stick with the tried and true points based system from MM and NME with their far larger store sample.
    That is the dilemma lol.

    That is why this UAC is for 'fun' , although it is interesting too, with the main purpose of the posts for now being to continue to show all the main charts as comparisons week on week and a sales chart versus points charts

    I just love all these charts
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

    Comment


    • I think the BBC would have been delighted with the new chart. Not just ahead of the game with The Israelites, but Lulu and others. I doubt they were concerned so much with the tie (their old chart had been riddled with them) as the indication that the sampling was lower than they had been promised. But they may have thought, as I do, that a sales chart with 85 stores is better than a points chart with many more.

      I don't think RR (or the BBC) could have unilaterally imposed a change of policy on BMRB as suggested.

      Comment


      • Personally I can remember welcoming the new BMRB chart with open arms, being young and nave at the time I thought it was accurate down to every copy sold as it was presented at the time to be the all singing all dancing chart to remedy all that went before.

        No doubt about it, as it was a sales chart it presented a major step forward in the way we counted and recorded record sales to produce a chart. But in retrospect it was flawed in many respects for the initial years. I don't think the trial run for its inception was robust or thorough enough later proved by the problems in getting diaries returned in sufficient quantities to compile an authentic chart with no ties, and in having to discard so many poorly completed diaries. This also refers back to the quality of the trial period as obviously a huge number of the chart return shops were ill prepared or trained in diary completion or the sense of urgency in returning these timeously.

        As a result sadly the initial years delivered a chart full of inconsistencies, initial ties, dubious patterns of movement week on week therefore reducing its credibility as a robust chart.

        Perhaps a longer period of trial was necessary to bed in the new chart with to ensure it worked competently with a much higher proportion of useable diary return before being unleashed as the 'Official Chart', because its credibility was questionable thus diminishing its status sadly.
        In the light of this we really can't discount the points based system of MM or NME in this early period. They were still publishing a tried and true method of compilation from a much larger sample of stores and therefore their authenticity in these early years of the BMRB chart can't be discounted or underestimated. Their charts in these early years were still accepted in preference to the BMRB chart in many quarters.

        That's the tragedy here. The BMRB chart if properly tested, checked, corrections made, and authenticated pre launch should from the moment of introduction have been what it was intended to be, the 'Official Chart' without question. It failed us.
        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

        Comment


        • I want to add that they may very well have tried to do all those things - tested, checked, corrections made, and authenticated pre launch. However, it could very well have bene such a different beast then they thought once it all started.

          I think I am right that this is the first sales only chart in the world? I know Billboard collected sales data since 1958 (I think I am right here) but did they use it as true sales or points? I don't want to digress into talk about Billboard, but the first I the world would be expected to have issues regardless.
          http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
          Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

          Comment


          • "No plan survives contact with the NME!"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
              I want to add that they may very well have tried to do all those things - tested, checked, corrections made, and authenticated pre launch. However, it could very well have bene such a different beast then they thought once it all started.

              I think I am right that this is the first sales only chart in the world? I know Billboard collected sales data since 1958 (I think I am right here) but did they use it as true sales or points? I don't want to digress into talk about Billboard, but the first I the world would be expected to have issues regardless.
              Interesting question. The Cash Box singles chart from 1944 to sometime in the 70s was based on sales only. In the 1940's and the early 1950's, up until sometime in 1955, they showed the "sales per 1000 singles sold" right there on the chart, for the current and previous weeks. How they got these numbers, I don't know. Cash Box Archive article here:

              https://www.cashboxmagazine.com/archives.htm

              This would be a good question for Paul Haney on the "Top 40 Music On CD" website...

              Comment


              • I think in the USA context 'sales only' simply means 'did not include airplay' - as Billboard did.

                Comment


                • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                  Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 12th 1969.

                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 12th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
                  Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                  Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
                  1 1 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 1 1 1 16050
                  2 2 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 2 2 4 15345
                  7 3 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 3 4 2 14815
                  3 4 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 4 3 5 14610
                  9 5 In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 5 5 8 13655
                  14 6 Israelites - Desmond Dekker and The Aces 6 7 3 13380
                  6 7 Games People Play - Joe South 7 6 7 13090
                  8 8 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 8 8 11 12050
                  11 9 Get Ready - The Temptations 11 9 13 11030
                  19 10 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 10 12 15 10310
                  4 11 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 13 10 14 10295
                  5 12 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 15 11 12 9815
                  10 13 First Of May - The Bee Gees 9 15 17 9590
                  16 14 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 14 14 10 9435
                  15 15 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 12 13 18 9405
                  28 16 Goodbye - Mary Hopkin 17 16 6 8675
                  23 17 Pinball Wizard - The Who 16 17 9 8370
                  18 18 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 20 18 19 6470
                  22 19 Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl 18 21 19 6120
                  24 20 Hello World - The Tremeloes 22 22 16 5325
                  12 21 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck 21 23 21 4850
                  13 22 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 24 19 26 4825
                  17 23 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 25 20 23 4630
                  25 24 I Don't Know Why - Stevie Wonder 23 24 22 4115
                  26 25 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine 19 27 30 3485
                  21 26 One Road - The Love Affair 28 25 25 2610
                  29 27 Cupid - Johnny Nash 26 26 2250
                  20 28 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers 28 24 1345
                  NEW 29 (I'm A) Road Runner - Junior Walker and The All Stars 27 29 1300
                  27 30 Don Juan - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 29 30 29 820
                  B Come Back And Shake Me - Clodagh Rodgers 27 340
                  X Sanctus - Les Troubadours Du Roi Baudouin 28 255
                  X Crosstown Traffic - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 30 200
                  30 I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross and The Supremes and The Temptations
                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                  Comment


                  • Again all three charts agree on the #1 record. There is broad agreement on records qualifying for the Top 30 with only three records differing overall.
                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                    Comment


                    • We've arrived at that point discussed earlier ...

                      On 13-April 'Get Back' was played in the new releases section of POTP. McCartney heard this and decided it needed to be remixed to sound better on radio. There is a recording online so you can hear what McCartney heard. (Although I suspect he was deliberately listening on AM and the recording is from FM.) The single was subsequently delayed, although I notice Wikipedia still says the release date was the 11th.

                      (Talking about release dates, I see the Peter Jackson 'Get Back' film is coming out on 21-Aug-21.)

                      Comment


                      • It's great to see the continued charts into the BMRB era. Indeed, I have already done them all to 1996, but without the dealer weighting! Interesting that I had an ambivalent point of view re BMRB back in 1969 which compelled me to carry on. If anyone really needs to know the straight average position in any week without dealer weighting, just ask! So, fascinating, and Mr Tibbs please carry on. At least it gets rid of the joint positions, of which there were three in 15-2-69!

                        Comment


                        • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                          Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 19th 1969.

                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 19th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
                          Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                          Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
                          6 1 Israelites - Desmond Dekker and The Aces 1 2 1 15800
                          1 2 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 2 1 3 15680
                          2 3 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 3 3 5 14810
                          3 4 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 4 4 4 14445
                          4 5 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 6 5 7 13540
                          5 6 In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 5 6 8 13405
                          16 7 Goodbye - Mary Hopkin 7 8 2 13015
                          7 8 Games People Play - Joe South 8 7 9 12470
                          10 9 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 9 9 10 11685
                          17 10 Pinball Wizard - The Who 10 10 6 11575
                          14 11 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 11 12 11 10450
                          8 12 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 14 11 13 9930
                          9 13 Get Ready - The Temptations 12 13 20 9235
                          15 14 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 13 14 19 8870
                          19 15 Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl 15 18 16 7725
                          11 16 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 16 16 22 7515
                          27 17 Cupid - Johnny Nash 18 19 12 7215
                          13 18 First Of May - The Bee Gees 17 15 28 7055
                          12 19 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 20 17 17 6890
                          24 20 I Don't Know Why - Stevie Wonder 19 22 18 5755
                          20 21 Hello World - The Tremeloes 25 21 14 5145
                          18 22 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 22 20 26 4975
                          25 23 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine 21 23 23 4680
                          NEW 24 Come Back and Shake Me - Clodagh Rodgers 23 30 15 3210
                          29 25 (I'm A ) Road Runner - Junior Walker and The All Stars 26 27 26 2425
                          21 26 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck 24 29 30 1985
                          22 27 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell 24 1750
                          NEW 28 Michael And The Slipper Tree - The Equals 29 28 25 1660
                          26 29 One Road - The Love Affair 25 1500
                          NEW 30 My Way - Frank Sinatra 27 23 1480
                          23 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 26 1250
                          B Man Of The World - Fleetwood Mac 21 850
                          B Dick-A-Dum-Dum - Des O'Connor 28 600
                          X The Walls Fell Down - The Marbles 29 170
                          28 Please Don't Go - Donald Peers
                          30 Don Juan - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich
                          * NME strangely omitted a number 30 this week
                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                          Comment


                          • NME and BMRB agree on #1 this week, MM still goes with Marvin Gaye. For some strange reason NME omits a #30 this week.
                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                            Comment


                            • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                              Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 26th 1969.

                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 26th 1969 NME MM BMRB Total
                              Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
                              Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
                              1 1 Israelites - Desmond Dekker and The Aces 1 1 2 15965
                              NEW 2 Get Back - The Beatles 3 2 1 15400
                              7 3 Goodbye - Mary Hopkin 2 3 3 15180
                              2 4 I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye 4 4 6 14275
                              10 5 Pinball Wizzard - The Who 6 5 4 13795
                              3 6 Gentle On My Mind - Dean Martin 5 6 5 13660
                              4 7 Boom Bang-A-Bang - Lulu 7 7 7 12840
                              17 8 Cupid - Johnny Nash 9 8 13 11680
                              24 9 Come Back And Shake Me - Clodagh Rodgers 10 11 8 11155
                              6 10 In The Bad Bad Old Days - The Foundations 8 12 10 11135
                              9 11 Windmills Of Your Mind - Noel Harrison 12 10 9 10920
                              15 12 Harlem Shuffle - Bob and Earl 11 13 11 10200
                              5 13 Sorry Suzanne - The Hollies 14 9 18 10005
                              11 14 I Can Hear Music - The Beach Boys 13 15 12 9215
                              8 15 Games People Play - Joe South 15 14 15 8810
                              20 16 I Don't Know Why - Stevie Wonder 17 16 14 7995
                              30 17 My Way - Frank Sinatra 16 21 17 6690
                              25 18 (I'm A) Road Runner - Junior Walker and The All Stars 19 19 16 6675
                              14 19 Good Times (Better Times) - Cliff Richard 20 17 25 6210
                              13 20 Get Ready - The Temptations 18 20 26 5775
                              12 21 Monsieur Dupont - Sandie Shaw 22 18 23 5730
                              NEW 22 Man Of The World - Fleetwood Mac 21 23 21 4850
                              21 23 Hello World - The Tremeloes 24 22 19 4670
                              28 24 Michael And The Slipper Tree - The Equals 23 24 24 3945
                              23 25 Passing Strangers - Sarah Vaughan and Billy Eckstine 25 25 22 3465
                              16 26 Where Do You Go To My Lovely - Peter Sarstedt 27 26 30 2135
                              19 27 Surround Yourself With Sorrow - Cilla Black 26 27 2000
                              18 28 First Of May - The Bee Gees 29 28 1150
                              NEW 29 Badge - Cream 30 20 1135
                              NEW 30 Plastic Man - The Kinks 28 29 1100
                              22 If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley 30 30 450
                              B My Sentimental Friend - Herman's Hermits 27 340
                              X The Walls Fell Down - The Marbles 28 255
                              B Behind A Painted Smile - The Isley Brothers 29 170
                              27 Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell
                              26 The Way It Used To Be - Engelbert Humperdinck
                              29 One Road - The Love Affair
                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                              Comment


                              • NME says, in the very issue that 'Get Back' enters only at 3 in their chart, that sales are approaching 250,000. Something doesn't add up. I was looking for an explanation of why they didn't have a number 30 last week but couldn't find any mention of it, although they compensate by having two this week!​​​​​​

                                Comment


                                • Yeah #30 maybe lost in transmission between compilation and print and no one picked up on it. Yeah it's strange how an advance figure like that, and I believe after the hype pre release that was the case, that it failed to enter at #1 in both NME and MM, all the more ironic as nearly all Beatles mid sixties records entered their charts at #1. I believe BMRB got it right here.
                                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                  Comment


                                  • This is purely a guess guys, but regarding 'Get Back' I recall I raised an issue about its release date many years ago on this forum. It's official date was cited as Friday 11th April, yet clearly that did not materialise in practice because the single would then have appeared in the charts for W/E Saturday 19th. As we know, it made its debut across all charts the following week, indicating it actually only appeared in the shops during the W/C Monday 14th. I seem to remember someone chipping in on this point (could've been you Graham76Man?) to say that there had been some sort of distribution delay which meant that many shops didn't receive their stock of 'GB' until at least Tuesday 15th. Okay, given it would usually only require two days of sales for a Beatles single to chart and normally at No 1, could it nevertheless be possible that whatever the cause of this deferred release was, it meant many shops didn't have their stock until much later that week, or possibly only a smaller number of copies to sell? If that were the case, perhaps those sampled by NME and MM comprised many outlets that were yet to get their hands on the single (or enough editions of it) and so reported lower-than-expected totals by close of play Saturday 19th? BMRB's sample was of course significantly smaller, but then I'm guessing likely included many shops in London and the large cities, which arguably could've received their requisite stocks more swiftly than their more provincial counterparts?

                                    All this conjecture could be completely irrelevant, but it just struck me as a coincidence that there'd been this problem with distribution of that particular single and that it came out as such 'low' entry positions on two of the major national charts.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                                      NME says, in the very issue that 'Get Back' enters only at 3 in their chart, that sales are approaching 250,000. Something doesn't add up.
                                      I disagree. It actually said "Sales of the Beatles' " Get Back " on Apple are expected to reach half-a-million within the next few days."

                                      See page 9 on 26/4/69 of New-Musical-Express-1969-04-26-OCR.pdf (worldradiohistory.com)


                                      Comment


                                      • From NME for w/e 12/4/69,


                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

                                          I had used my original copy of The Guinness Book of Top 40 Singles and it had listed them at 28 and 29 Woz. However I note the later edition and my Graham Betts book have these at joint 28 as you say. As it would appear to be an error in the original book copy I have amended.

                                          Thanks. It keeps everything accurate.
                                          Brian
                                          Vol 2 of the Guinness Top 40 book has two songs tied at 28 (just for your info)

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by Richard M White View Post

                                            Vol 2 of the Guinness Top 40 book has two songs tied at 28 (just for your info)
                                            Thanks Richard. Yeah must have been just the first edition that carried that error.
                                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                            Comment


                                            • Just wondering if anyone has seen this.

                                              A Kindle book about 1960s charts. Never heard of the author, Dave Hill before. Not one of the usual suspects.

                                              The 1960s Charts Book eBook: Hill, David: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

                                              Comment


                                              • Wikipedia - David John Hill (born 4 April 1946) is an English musician, who is the lead guitarist, backing vocalist and the sole continuous member in the English band Slade.

                                                Could it really be him? Perhaps it is MrTibbs with a pseudonym.

                                                If you click on Look Inside on the Amazon web site you get a very long sample of the book's contents - well worth reading.

                                                Throughout the 1960s, many recording stars shone and then faded. Others were more durable and are still active today. The success, or not of artists and their records was measured by their positions on the weekly pop charts. Each music paper highlighted the new entries, the risers, the fallers and the all-important number 1 – the best-selling record that particular week. New Musical Express and Melody Maker had the biggest readerships, but there were also healthy sales of Record Mirror and Disc Magazine. On BBC radio, it was David Jacobs and more enduringly, Alan Freeman who presented the charts each weekend to an audience of twenty million listeners. A few hours later, millions of people retuned their radios to 208 meters on the medium wave band to hear David Gell, Barry Alldis, or Paul Burnett countdown the Radio Luxembourg chart.

                                                This book contains weekly radio charts and monthly snapshots, showing who was in, who was out and recalls how pop music developed through the decade. If you are old enough to remember the sixties, you will be transported back to the times when you looked at the pop music charts each week to find out where your favourites were.

                                                The book sample shows an averaged chart for 1960. Now who would have thought of that? It also deals with re-writing chart history - the missing number ones.

                                                Comment


                                                • The averaged charts shown Jan thru Nov 1960 are the BBC charts per the Dave/Trevor BBC file. Well, I checked 2 charts at the beginning and 2 at the end. Same with the list of #1's from 1960, all BBC. Note the last paragraph of the introduction before 1960 data begins, he says he's using the BBC averaged chart in the main body of this book.

                                                  Alas there is no table of contents, so other than the BBC charts for 1960, we have no idea what else is included. His intro appears to have some of Alan Smith's info, as well as other info that disagrees with Alan. Note that he says Record Retailer sampled thru Friday of each week, and thus that's why (he says) RR differed from the other charts.

                                                  His first chart of 1960 leaves out the #13 position, ugh...

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

                                                    His first chart of 1960 leaves out the #13 position, ugh...
                                                    . So an excellently researched and proof read piece of work? <Sarcasm>

                                                    http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                                    Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                                    Comment

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