The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Splodj]

https://books.google.fi/books?id=eSk...page&q&f=false

One thing that caught my eye on that page - 'Pretty Belinda' number one in Sweden!!

[kingofskiffle]

I almost want to add one of those wikipedia tags you sometimes see

"following the most unanimously agreed lineage" [by who?].

[setg1]

But in the sleeve notes for 1 George Martin states,

"This collection of number ones is taken from the most widely circulated charts in the UK (Record Mirror) and the USA (Billboard)."

No other charts were considered.

Which if nothing else explains the missing of Please Please Me.....

But it doesn't explain why one of their Billboard number ones was omitted:

https://books.google.fi/books?id=eSk...page&q&f=false

Not that anyone will really miss "For You Blue" on the compilation, but it is a number one hit by the same criteria as "Something" (Billboard combined the sales and airplay of the more popular and the less popular side, listing them together). That just shows they couldn't even follow the criteria they supposedly used.

RokinRobinOfLocksley A sixth one for the list: "Magical Mystery Tour" was number one in Melody Maker.

[Splodj]

"For the purposes of this database, we are following the most unanimously agreed lineage. Chart historians have long since agreed the NME published the pre-eminent singles chart from launch in November 1952 until February 1960, when the Record Retailer took over as the chart of choice. As far as albums are concerned the Record Mirror chart was the original (and most widely recognised) rundown, from July 1956 until March 1960, when the Record Retailer took over From this point in 1960, Record Retailer unified the albums and singles charts, remaining the source of choice through until early 1969 when BMRB took over the reins."

The point is this is simply untrue. They can claim that these are the most readily available historic charts, but not that they were pre-eminent at the time or can be regarded as such now by any objective measure.

[kingofskiffle]

But in the sleeve notes for 1 George Martin states,

"This collection of number ones is taken from the most widely circulated charts in the UK (Record Mirror) and the USA (Billboard)."

No other charts were considered.

Which if nothing else explains the missing of Please Please Me.....

[brian05]

But in the sleeve notes for 1 George Martin states,

"This collection of number ones is taken from the most widely circulated charts in the UK (Record Mirror) and the USA (Billboard)."

No other charts were considered.

[setg1]

Twist and Shout was only no. 2 in Billboard

But number one on both Cash Box and Music Vendor (later known as Record World). Arguably the second most significant omission on 1 after "Please Please Me". Also an EP chart number one in Record Retailer.

They didn't even bother to follow the criteria of including all the Record Retailer and Billboard number ones consistently, as the case of the already mentioned "For You Blue" shows – number one on both Billboard and Record World (thanks to being listed together with its A-side) but missed out in Cash Box where they kept listing the sides separately. But they still included "Something" which was only a number two in Cash Box. Undeniably, this makes it much more popular than the Cash Box #71 hit "For You Blue", but neither song would have topped the chart without being combined with the other side of the single. And more controversially, you could also say the same about "Day Tripper" (number one in the UK as a double A-side, but not a top four hit on any of the US charts while "We Can Work It Out" was number one). So that makes a couple of number ones just as debatable as or more so than "Please Please Me"...

[brian05]

They could have included Please please me by chopping off about 4 minutes of Hey Jude.

Twist and Shout was only no. 2 in Billboard, Nowhere man was no. 3 in Billboard, Strawberry Fields was no. 8 in Billboard

[kingofskiffle]

I suspect it’s apathy. Does it matter, in one way, particularly to a record company, 8 years after the final chart that this is being chosen as the definitive chart? I am reading the old music weeks being posted on the American site and reading about the tie at number 1 (or not...) and the only reason they where annoyed was because they coul;dn;t use the tag “number 1 in the UK” at that point as a marketing tool. Would they have cared 8 years later?

Take Please Please Me. in 1963 it either was or was not a number 1. 15 years later does that, to the record company, matter? To us of course it does! But to EMI when the bulk of those sales where done and any now would be on the name Beatles and not “former UK number 1”.

I’d say again in 2001 or so when the chart canon was “officialized” it was decades later and it doesn’t matter - to the record labels.

Maybe I’m being to glass half empty, but that would seem the logical case to me. My current job is a maths tutor for a company specialising in international students. Right now we care about student numbers this year and next year vs last year and the year before. We don’t really care about numbers from 10 years ago - unless we can use that as a competitive advantage or it adds to a big number. Record companies almost certainly work the same. “x sold 2,000,000 copies!” is what they care about, not “x was number 1 on this chart and 2 on this one so can we have this as the official chart”.

I’m happy to be educated otherwise if anybody knows better than me, but the above, to me, seems logical and plausible.

[MrTibbs]

I've long been amazed and perplexed at how little opposition materialised to RR being adopted as the 'official' chart even initially in 1977 by Guinness.. Artists, record companies, music papers, all just seemed to roll over and accept it without question. Given there was no opposition to speak of no wonder the OCC rubber stamped it and adopted it too. Even now I can't understand how easy the whole process was.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

It makes no sense that a record company would credit an artist with FEWER #1 records than what they actually achieved. EMI staff in 2000 probably had few if any employees that were still working there from 1963. So they just pulled out the Guinness book with its revisionism, and a Billboard book for the US, and went with that. They probably ran the track list by Paul, George, Ringo, and John's widow for approval, who may not have even looked at it, or didn't voice any objections. Or if there were objections, EMI would have responded they were going by the 'official' charts, or could only get so many tracks on the CD, they had to leave off some. Case closed.

Never mind that The Beatles had 5 other #1 records on the other major charts in the UK and US that weren't on the '1' CD: Please Please Me, Strawberry Fields Forever, Twist and Shout, Nowhere Man, and b-side For You Blue. EMI could have done the math and left off the least performing #1's. Or made separate '1' CDs for the UK and US. Or made it a 2-CD set and included everything. But why go thru all that trouble when you could just go with the worst UK chart, and the only US chart with a readily accessible chart book series? They were going to produce this '1' CD on a single CD, and the track list (plus or minus a song or two) wouldn't have made any difference in net sales.

So instead of getting "all" the #1's, or the "biggest" #1's, we get "some" of the #1's. Or 27 out of 32 = "84% of the #1's which may not necessarily be the biggest". That would be a great CD title, ha...

But yeah, Paul and Ringo should take a public stand against the 'official' charts. Wouldn't that be kool? And Mick and Keith as well. Check out my 1-star rant review of the '1' CD on Amazon when you get a free minute...

[Richard M White]

Interesting the smallest sample (RR) and the biggest sample (MM) had Please Please Me at no 2

[Splodj]

It has been said that the particularly bad weather on the night Please Please Me was featured on Thank Your Lucky Stars gave it a boost because of the increased audience.

When it made number one EMI hosted a party to celebrate. It occurs to me that latterly EMI could have made a stand against 'official' chart revisionism by including it on the '1' album.

[TopTwenty]

A thought just crossed my mind: the charts being posted at present are from one of the coldest and snowiest winters of the 20th Century. From Christmas 1962 to early March 1963 the UK was quite literally snowed under in the coldest winter since 1740 (though 1947 was snowier). I wonder how high sales were in this period given how severe the weather was for 2½ months?

Two of Cliff’s biggest selling records of the sixties came during the first three months of a snowy, freezing 1963. It seems that some people at least were facing the elements and trudging to the record shops.

[MrTibbs]

and there is your answer .. the battle is easily won, The Beatles easily overtake Frank to capture #1 and music history begins.

Cliff has 4 songs on the NME Top 30 due to split sides.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 23rd 1963

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 23rd 1963								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	100	150	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
3	1	Please Please Me - The Beatles					1	1	2	1	2	9720
2	2	The Wayward Wind - Frank Ifield					2	1	3	2	1	9550
1	3	Diamonds - Jet Harris and Tony Meehan					3	3	1	3	3	9540
12	4	The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee					4	4	6	4	4	8610
4	5	Little Town Flirt - Del Shannon					6	6	4	6	5	8580
7	6	Loop-De-Loop - Frankie Vaughan					5	5	5	5	6	8550
10	7	Island Of Dreams - The Springfields					7	8	8	8	8	7590
11	8	All Alone Am I - Brenda Lee					8	12	7	9	7	7320
5	9	Bachelor Boy / The Next Time - Cliff Richard*					12	16	10	10	9	7000
13	10	Sukiyaki - Kenny Ball					9	10	9	12	10	6980
15	11	Walk Right In - The Rooftop Singers					11	11	11	11	11	6600
23	12	That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown					10	7	15	7	12	6570
8	13	Like I Do - Maureen Evans					13	14	13	15	14	5710
6	14	Globetrotter - The Tornados					14	15	12	17	16	5600
19	15	Hava Nagila - The Spotnicks					15	20	14	16	15	4880
9	16	Don't You Think It's Time - Mike Berry					16	17	16	19	13	4790
NEW	17	Summer Holiday / Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard					18	9	24	13	27	4270
30	18	Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury					17	13	23	14	22	4120
16	19	A Taste Of Honey - Mr. Acker Bilk					19	22	17	24	17	3770
21	20	Tell Him - Billie Davis					20	21	19	18	24	3660
14	21	Dance On - The Shadows					22	28	18	20	21	3100
17	22	Big Girls Don't Cry - The Four Seasons					21	26	20	22	18	2990
NEW	23	Hey Paula - Paul and Paula					23	19	25	21	26	2750
18	24	Some Kinda Fun - Chris Montez					25	27	22	27	20	2280
20	25	My Little Girl - The Crickets					24		21	23	19	2260
27	26	Charmaine - The Bachelors					26	23	26	30	23	1840
NEW	27	Hi-Lili Hi-Lo - Richard Chamberlain					27	24		25		1000
22	28	Loo-Be-Loo - The Chucks					29=	29	27		29	860
26	29	It's Up To You - Rick Nelson					28		29	29	25	580
29	30	The Alley Cat Song - David Thorne							28		28	540
		* This week the split sides would have affected NME's averaged chart positionso an average was taken from the other 3 charts giving an average of 9.6 to Cliff Richard and awarded to NME to give a more representative chart position for both sides together.
		The Next Time - Cliff Richard						18
		Dancing Shoes - Cliff Richard						25
B		Boss Guitar - Duane Eddy					29=	30	30	26	30	530
X		Fireball XL5 - Don Spencer								28		150
24		Return To Sender - Elvis Presley
25		Up On The Roof - Kenny Lynch
28		Comin' Home Baby - Mel Torme

[Splodj]

The wonderful theme to Fireball XL5

I bought the EP version which was released in April when the single was still rising in the charts.

The other theme tune I rushed out to buy was Doctor Who.

[Robbie]

A thought just crossed my mind: the charts being posted at present are from one of the coldest and snowiest winters of the 20th Century. From Christmas 1962 to early March 1963 the UK was quite literally snowed under in the coldest winter since 1740 (though 1947 was snowier). I wonder how high sales were in this period given how severe the weather was for 2½ months?

[MrTibbs]

Yes, a lovely song! Shame it never went that high (32 on RR in an 11 week run then back again in June). Very pleased though that it was re-issued at the end of last year on vinyl and got to 9 on the Vinyl chart (2 Jan 2021) and 14 in Scotland and 10 in Wales (those regional charts are now Physical and not iTunes downloads) and is 83 this week in Scotland. A lovely tune and a lovely series.

Captain Steve Zodiac and his female co-pilot Venus if I remember correctly. It's one of those iconic theme tunes that have stayed with me down through the years. Conjures up magical memories of a more innocent time.

[kingofskiffle]

Yes, a lovely song! Shame it never went that high (32 on RR in an 11 week run then back again in June). Very pleased though that it was re-issued at the end of last year on vinyl and got to 9 on the Vinyl chart (2 Jan 2021) and 14 in Scotland and 10 in Wales (those regional charts are now Physical and not iTunes downloads) and is 83 this week in Scotland. A lovely tune and a lovely series.

[MrTibbs]

Diamonds is under pressure .. both Frank and The Beatles close in but who is The Ultimate Chart gonna favour ?

The theme from one of my very first favourite TV shows is just outside the top thirty this week. The wonderful theme to Fireball XL5, ''I wish I was a spaceman, the fastest guy alive, I'd fly you round the universe in Fireball XL5'', Magical Stuff for a 9 year old. !!

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 16th 1963

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 16th 1963								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	100	150	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Diamonds - Jet Harris and Tony Meehan					1	1	1	2	1	9850
4	2	The Wayward Wind - Frank Ifield					2	2	3	1	2	9470
6	3	Please Please Me - The Beatles					3	3	2	3	3	9390
5	4	Little Town Flirt - Del Shannon					4	4	4	4	4	8910
2	5	Bachelor Boy / The Next Time - Cliff Richard					5	9	5	5	5	8180
3	6	Globetrotter - The Tornados					8	8	6	9	13	7690
12	7	Loop-De-Loop - Frankie Vaughan					6	5	11	6	6	7600
8	8	Like I Do - Maureen Evans					7	10	7	10	7	7470
7	9	Don't You Think It's Time - Mike Berry					9	12	8	8	8	7190
11	10	Island Of Dreams - The Springfields					10	7	10	11	12	7120
10	11	All Alone Am I - Brenda Lee					11	11	9	12	9	6910
24	12	The Night Has A Thousand Eyes - Bobby Vee					12	6	15	7	14	6610
13	13	Sukiyaki - Kenny Ball					13	13	13	13	10	6030
9	14	Dance On - The Shadows					14	18	12	14	11	5600
18	15	Walk Right In - The Rooftop Singers					15	14	16	15	18	5140
15	16	A Taste Of Honey - Mr. Acker Bilk					16=	19	14	17	16	4900
14	17	Big Girls Don't Cry - The Four Seasons					16=	16	17	18	15	4730
16	18	Some Kinda Fun - Chris Montez					19	20	18	22	20	3830
25	19	Have Nagila - The Spotnicks					18	22	19	16	19	3810
23	20	My Little Girl - The Crickets					20	29	20	21	17	2770
NEW	21	Tell Him - Billie Davis					21=	21	24	20	27	2720
20	22	Loo-Be-Loo - The Chucks					24=	23	23	26	25	2430
NEW	23	That's What Love Will Do - Joe Brown					21=	17	30	19	26	2300
17	24	Return To Sender - Elvis Presley					24=	27	22	25	23	2290
19	25	Up On The Roof - Kenny Lynch					23		21	24	28	1940
27	26	It's Up To You - Rick Nelson					26=	25	26	28	24	1710
28	27	Charmaine - The Bachelors					26=	24	28	29	22	1520
21	28	Comin' Home Baby - Mel Torme					30		25		30	930
30	29	The Alley Cat Song - David Thorne					28		27		21	900
NEW	30	Like I've Never Been Gone - Billy Fury					29	28		23		700
		The Next Time - Cliff Richard						15
B		Hey Paula - Paul and Paula						26				500
22		Go Away Little Girl - Mark Wynter							29		29	360
B		Boss Guitar - Duane Eddy								27		200
X		What Now - Adam Faith						30				100
X		Fireball XL5 - Don Spencer								30		50
26		(Dance With The) Guitar Man - Duane Eddy
29		He's A Rebel - The Crystals

[kingofskiffle]

I probably need to go through yours and mine side by side and see what the changes are

[MrTibbs]

Lonnie, do you have the most recent BBC Dave/Trevor file? The most recent one (of the 4 Dave/Trevor revised files that I have) is the one Trevor sent me 18 June 2015.

It is a shame because although the 4th version of the BBC chart manuscript does indeed have some much needed corrections made to it, it still carries quite a number of errors not corrected retrospectively. Like most of you I've had to correct these too on my copy as we discover more of them.

[kingofskiffle]

Not actually sure... I think I entered them around 2010 or so but I seem to have a file with a save date of 27 Jul 2016 (although that could be when I saved it.... Dropbox has a habit of amending save dates). The file does have all those errors listed in it though