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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    I notice that MMs 20-Dec chart has a tie at number 3. Isn't this indicative that they have reduced their sample significantly?

    On Wikipedia it says: "By the end of 1969, however, with the establishment of the BMRB, Melody Maker and NME had reduced their sample pool to 100 stores."

    This is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...9-1988) at the end of the 'Melody Maker' section, citing Sixties City.
    The webpage given as evidence for this: Sixties City https://www.sixtiescity.net/60trivia/60charts.htm may be giving a date of October 9th for this to occur. Also says they (MM and NME) compile the chart on a thursday/friday to compete with BMRB issuing theirs on a Saturday, but presumably that's still using the previous week's Mon-Sat data as per BMRB.

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    • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
      I notice that MMs 20-Dec chart has a tie at number 3. Isn't this indicative that they have reduced their sample significantly?

      On Wikipedia it says: "By the end of 1969, however, with the establishment of the BMRB, Melody Maker and NME had reduced their sample pool to 100 stores."

      This is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...9-1988) at the end of the 'Melody Maker' section, citing Sixties City.
      Direct link: https://www.sixtiescity.net/60trivia/60charts.htm

      It's an old article (it appears to be from 2014) which I remember reading a few years ago. The site is owned by Chris Hough and I assume he also wrote the article.

      Comment


      • Looking at their (SixtiesCity) top 20 singles for December 1969 they have Rolf Harris dropping off the chart and the Tremeloes going to No.1.... With an error like that you do have to wonder about the veracity of the rest of their info......
        Last edited by braindeadpj; Tue July 13, 2021, 20:26.

        Comment


        • I see Rolf Harris climbing to number 1 and Fleetwood Mac dropping off the chart: https://www.sixtiescity.net/charts/69chart.htm

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
            I see Rolf Harris climbing to number 1 and Fleetwood Mac dropping off the chart: https://www.sixtiescity.net/charts/69chart.htm
            OK, i see what my problem is, on my screen the title for the Kenny Rogers song/act is on two lines, but the chart positions don't skip a line so they are shifted up by one, so it looks like they have Rolf Harris dropping off, but actually they don't.... so I take it back about the error....

            Comment


            • Does anyone know what the source for the best selling singles of 1969 (and for each of the other years of the 60s) published on sixtiescity.net might be?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
                On Wikipedia it says: "By the end of 1969, however, with the establishment of the BMRB, Melody Maker and NME had reduced their sample pool to 100 stores."

                This is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...9-1988) at the end of the 'Melody Maker' section, citing Sixties City.
                Yet Alan Smith reported following his research that it was the early seventies before the MM and NME sample was reduced. Dave Taylor always held a similar view going into a bit more detail from his own contacts. He always maintained from them both MM and NME held out in the hope the BMRB chart wouldn't become universally accepted and , coincidentally, it was only after the '71 postal strike when the BMRB charts did achieve more credibility and had settled down that their sample size was reduced to 100.

                Also Wikipedia as we know is not always that accurate.
                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post

                  OK, i see what my problem is, on my screen the title for the Kenny Rogers song/act is on two lines, but the chart positions don't skip a line so they are shifted up by one, so it looks like they have Rolf Harris dropping off, but actually they don't.... so I take it back about the error....
                  We all make them brain, I did a few days ago not reading a post properly
                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                    Does anyone know what the source for the best selling singles of 1969 (and for each of the other years of the 60s) published on sixtiescity.net might be?
                    This has always been a bone of contention Robbie as there are no exact sales figures for most records from this period. There is no definitive source that accurately reports on bestsellers from this era conclusively. Through the years attempts have been made built around a few known sales figures for some records but as far as I'm aware every list of bestselling singles from the sixties is a few facts and a lot of guesstimates.
                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                    Comment


                    • Greetings Pop Pickers

                      Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 10th 1970

                      Here are all 'the uppers, the downers, the just hangin' arounders'

                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 10th 1970 NME MM BMRB Total
                      Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 125 Points
                      Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
                      1 1 Two Little Boys - Rolf Harris 1 1 1 17250
                      2 2 Ruby Don't Take Your Love To Town - Kenny Rogers and The First Edition 2 3 2 16425
                      4 3 Melting Pot - Blue Mink 3 2 3 16350
                      7 4 All I Have To Do Is Dream - Bobbie Gentry and Glen Canpbell 4 4 5 15400
                      9 5 Tracy - The Cuff Links 7 5 4 14675
                      3 6 Sugar Sugar - The Archies 5 7 6 14325
                      6 7 Suspicious Minds - Elvis Presley 6 6 7 14250
                      5 8 Yester-Me Yester-You Yesterday - Stevie Wonder 8 8 9 13100
                      15 9 Good Old Rock'n'Roll - The Dave Clark Five 9 10 8 12525
                      10 10 The Onion Song - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell 12 9 11 11800
                      8 11 Winter World Of Love - Engelbert Humperdinck 11 10 14 11375
                      11 12 Without Love - Tom Jones 10 12 13 11200
                      13 13 The Liquidator - Harry J All Stars 14 13 10 10525
                      12 14 (Call Me) Number One - The Tremeloes 13 14 15 9850
                      16 15 Leavin' - (Durham Town) - Roger Whittaker 16 15 12 9375
                      18 16 Green River - Creedence Clearwater Revival 15 18 23 7450
                      24 17 Someday We'll Be Together - Diana Ross and The Supremes 18 17 24 6975
                      NEW 18 Reflections Of My Life - The Marmalade 17 24 16 6425
                      14 19 Love Is All - Malcolm Roberts 21 16 26 6375
                      21 20 The Highway Song - Nancy Sinatra 22 20 21 5800
                      17 21 Something / Come Together - The Beatles 27 19 18 5425
                      19 22 Loneliness - Des O'Connor 18 21 30 5225
                      22 23 But You Love Me Daddy / Snowflake - Jim Reeves 24 23 17 5150
                      29 24 Comin' Home - Delaney and Bonnie and Friends 26 22 19 4750
                      26 25 With The Eyes Of A Child - Cliff Richard 18 29 22 4225
                      20 26 Wonderful World Beautiful People - Jimmy Cliff 23 25 3100
                      RE 27 If I Thought You'd Ever Change Your Mind - Cilla Black 25 20 2575
                      23 28 Sweet Dream - Jethro Tull 28 27 1600
                      25 29 Return Of Django - The Upsetters 26 1250
                      30 30 Nobody's Child - Karen Young 29 30 28 1025
                      28 Love's Been Good To Me - Frank Sinatra 30 28 950
                      B Georgie Fame - Seventh Son 25 750
                      B She Sold Me Magic - Lou Christie 27 500
                      X Leapy Lee - Good Morning 29 250
                      27 Oh Well - Fleetwood Mac
                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                        Led Zeppelin entered the Melody Maker chart with 'Whole Lotta Love'
                        An unlikely link between that track and Cilla, as her re-entry was written by the CCS guy responsible for the 'Whole Lotta Love' version used for the TOTP chart rundown.

                        Comment


                        • Good new entry by Marmalade and much better than their Beatles cover.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                            Good new entry by Marmalade and much better than their Beatles cover.
                            Yeah I agree. A much more mature performance from them and also a really good song. They also took it into the US top ten.No mean feat.

                            I actually thought The Bedrocks version of Ob La Di superior to Marmalade's and closer to The Beatles' original.
                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                              Good new entry by Marmalade and much better than their Beatles cover.
                              Clearly Bee Gees influenced - but arguably better than the material the Gibbs were releasing themselves at this point...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Splodj View Post

                                An unlikely link between that track and Cilla, as her re-entry was written by the CCS guy responsible for the 'Whole Lotta Love' version used for the TOTP chart rundown.
                                Speaking of Led Zep and Brit Pop gurls, Sandie Shaw was the first ever artist to cover a Led Zep song, "Your Time Is Gonna Come".

                                And before Led Zep was signed to a record label, Dusty Springfield had put in a good word for them to Atlantic Records Jerry Wexler, while she was recording her "Dusty In Memphis" LP.

                                Now back to our regular programming...

                                Comment


                                • Greetings Pop Pickers

                                  Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 17th 1970

                                  Here are all 'the uppers, the downers, the just hangin' arounders'

                                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 17th 1970 NME MM BMRB Total
                                  Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 125 Points
                                  Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
                                  1 1 Two Little Boys - Rolf Harris 1 1 1 17250
                                  5 2 Tracy - The Cuff Links 2 3 5 16050
                                  3 3 Melting Pot - Blue Mink 3 2 7 15850
                                  4 4 All I Have To Do Is Dream - Bobbie Gentry and Glen Campbell 4 4 3 15650
                                  2 5 Ruby Don't Take Your Love To Town - Kenny Rogers and The First Edition 5 5 4 15075
                                  7 6 Suspicious Minds - Elvis Presley 6 6 2 14875
                                  6 7 Sugar Sugar - The Archies 7 7 6 13925
                                  9 8 Good Old Rock'n'Roll - The Dave Clark Five 8 8 8 13225
                                  18 9 Reflections Of My Life - The Marmalade 9 9 9 12650
                                  8 10 Yester-Me Yester-You Yesterday - Stevie Wonder 10 10 14 11575
                                  12 11 Without Love - Tom Jones 11 12 11 11250
                                  15 12 Leavin (Durham Town) - Roger Whittaker 15 13 12 10075
                                  10 13 The Onion Song - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell 14 11 19 9900
                                  13 14 The Liquidator - Harry J All Stars 12 14 17 9800
                                  11 15 Winter World Of Love - Engelbert Humperdinck 13 15 16 9475
                                  17 16 Someday We'll Be Together - Diana Ross and The Supremes 16 16 13 9000
                                  NEW 17 Come And Get It - Badfinger 17 20 10 8175
                                  NEW 18 Friends - Arrival 18 17 18 7725
                                  16 19 Green River - Creedence Clearwater Revival 19 21 22 6025
                                  23 20 But You Love Me Daddy / Snowflake - Jim Reeves 22 23 15 5800
                                  24 21 Comin' Home - Delaney and Bonnie and Friends 25 18 21 5700
                                  14 22 (Call Me) Number One - The Tremeloes 23 19 25 5350
                                  27 23 If I Thought You'd Ever Change Your Mind - Cilla Black 21 26 27 3750
                                  25 24 With The Eyes Of A Child - Cliff Richard 28 25 20 3475
                                  20 25 The Highway Song - Nancy Sinatra 27 22 28 3425
                                  22 26 Loneliness - Des O'Connor 20 29 2700
                                  19 27 Love Is All - Malcolm Roberts 24 24 2625
                                  NEW 28 She Sold Me Magic - Lou Christie 24 30 30 1775
                                  NEW 29 Seventh Son - Georgie Fame 29 28 1150
                                  21 30 Something / Come Together - The Beatles 27 1000
                                  B Let It All Hang Out - Jonathan King 26 1000
                                  B I'm A Man - Chicago 23 1000
                                  B Hitchin' A Ride - Vanity Fare 26 625
                                  Love's Been Good To Me - Frank Sinatra 29 250
                                  Victoria - The Kinks 30 200
                                  26 Wonderful World Beautiful People - Jimmy Cliff
                                  28 Sweet Dream - Jethro Tull
                                  29 Return Of Django - The Upsetters
                                  30 Nobody's Child - Karen Young
                                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                  Comment


                                  • Tracy by The Archies err I mean Cuff Links claims #2. Two cracking new entries this week, Come And Get It by Badfinger and the wonderful Friends from Arrival mmmmmmm.
                                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                    Comment


                                    • BMRB seriously out of step. Same top 9 but massive order difference. I’d say this is diaries not getting back after the first Christmas vs the others with their more established processes.
                                      http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                      Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                      Comment


                                      • Graham76man
                                        Graham76man commented
                                        Editing a comment
                                        Your wrong about that. The Real Charts for 1970 reveal that BMRB was picking up on the TOTP performances faster than the other two. There are a few blunders in the other charts too. With Kink's actually in the top 20, missing on all the rest of the charts. And J King being hyped on NME he was only 62! For the above chart check out the 11 Jan chart on My Blog.

                                    • During the postal strike of February/March 1971 BMRB said their chart, only 40 places at present, was compiled from a reduced panel of shops with diaries collected by 'special messengers'. Anyone got any idea just how many diaries were being collected at this time and was it just local London stores ?
                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                      Comment


                                      • I am really interested into what you have to say MR Tibbs on the real reason you will not use 300 shops for the BMRB and why you have not reduced the NME and Melody Maker charts to 100 after 1970 charts start?
                                        I suspect that this is nothing to do with what you have been told and the real reason is that giving the 300 shops to BMRB would give them an advantage over the others, even when they were on 200 and 250. But with them down at 100 each that advantage would remain with ridiculous low figure you give for BMRB (where the hell did you get that figure?).
                                        You claimed to be open about your charts when you first started, with the facts open. But since you have started this section you have not put in 300 shops for the BMRB, which they clearly state on charts of the period. So the facts are wrong there. And now when you have information that NME and Melody Maker reduced down to 100 each, you have not done the same. You only quote Dave Taylor, who is now dead and so can't confirm his facts and have not produced any other evidence to say the samples stayed the same till 1971. And when did they change in 1971?
                                        I know I said I wouldn't comment on this thread again, but when you keep pushing this stuff and don't stick to the rules, well it makes me angry.
                                        But hey these charts are for laughs
                                        I'm not laughing
                                        Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
                                          I am really interested into what you have to say MR Tibbs on the real reason you will not use 300 shops for the BMRB and why you have not reduced the NME and Melody Maker charts to 100 after 1970 charts start?
                                          I suspect that this is nothing to do with what you have been told and the real reason is that giving the 300 shops to BMRB would give them an advantage over the others, even when they were on 200 and 250. But with them down at 100 each that advantage would remain with ridiculous low figure you give for BMRB (where the hell did you get that figure?).
                                          You claimed to be open about your charts when you first started, with the facts open. But since you have started this section you have not put in 300 shops for the BMRB, which they clearly state on charts of the period. So the facts are wrong there. And now when you have information that NME and Melody Maker reduced down to 100 each, you have not done the same. You only quote Dave Taylor, who is now dead and so can't confirm his facts and have not produced any other evidence to say the samples stayed the same till 1971. And when did they change in 1971?
                                          I know I said I wouldn't comment on this thread again, but when you keep pushing this stuff and don't stick to the rules, well it makes me angry.
                                          But hey these charts are for laughs
                                          I'm not laughing
                                          Just out of interest, I have actually been compiling the chart using 250/300 for BMRB and it hasn't made that many differences to the top 10. Since the October 11th chart, I have also been playing around with 100 points for NME and MM and again not too many major differences in the top 10. The biggest difference (OK I guess this is a major difference) was the week there was a 3-way split (13/12/1969) where The Archies remain at no.1 on any other iteration of the chart than the one that has been used for the UAC.

                                          Graham76man,with regards to changing the ratios you are basically saying we should believe one source (Chris Hough) over another (Alan Smith/Dave Taylor). Without seeing their evidence for their statements, it's difficult to know which one is correct. Since the UAC has so far been based on Alan Smith/Dave Taylor data it makes sense he is continuing to do so. As I said above, I've changed the ratios just to see what would happen, not necessarily because I believe that the Chris Hough source is correct. I also understand why you think that 300 should be used (and why Mr. Tibbs hasn't used it).

                                          As Mr Tibbs has said all along, the 1969-1971 are just for fun since we are essentially comparing apples and oranges (sales and points), but it does allow us to compare the positions on the three charts each week (well except for at christmas!).

                                          Comment


                                          • No-one will ever be able to know at which exact point both NME and MM cut back ther respective sample sizes. Alan Smith mentions the sample size was cut back to 100 (NME) and MM (200) "by the early 1970s". Similarly it is impossible to know the exact amounts of diary returns that the BMRB were getting each week other than the amouns were less in 1969 than they were in 1970 and less in 1970 th they were in 1971.

                                            I don't see too many differences between the two points based charts (NME / MM) and the one sales based chart (BMRB) other than records climb quicker on the BMRB chart and fall quicker. A handful of titles do have more of a rollercoaster chart run on BMRB which possibly reflects the make up of the BMRB chart panel and that perhaps BMRB still were struggling to attract enough diaries from certain types of stores.

                                            I'm enjoying these 1969-71 charts so am happy to see them being posted each day.

                                            Comment


                                            • Brain and Robbie's comments above are spot on.

                                              Indeed, lets be upfront, there is no chart at least reflecting the fifties, sixties, seventies, that any compiler could hold their hand up and certify to be 100% accurate. None. They were all estimates of sales and all based around a minor percentage of record shops around the country. But we accepted them for what they were and embraced them as the best possible for their time giving us a best estimate of popularity. So along with this thinking the UAC for 56 to February 1969 years will join NME, RM, MM, Disc and even RR as a barometer of likelihood. All charts possible but none definitive and I have always accepted that fact.

                                              Indeed all the above charts are based on actual data and not the subjective figment of a fertile imagination where ET whispers sales figures in an ear.

                                              This whole site is built around enjoyment, fun, and the collaborative sharing of facts and ideas and I am both proud and honoured to be part of this community. That is why I participate enthusiastically and enjoy sharing the UAC with a large audience who by evidence of likes, views and comments obviously enjoy what I am offering. It is this vast majority that motivates me to post. The one negative participant is just a lone voice in the wilderness.

                                              So I will be marching on as planned !

                                              Brian
                                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                              Comment


                                              • Yes, in fact I am looking forward to the next chart to see if there is any justification for BMRBs strange positions last time suggesting that they were indeed having difficulties.

                                                But I t

                                                Comment


                                                • But I think it is only fair to say that the other two charts must have seen which way the wind was blowing by now overall. In particular they would have been disheartened by BMRB being the first to identify new number ones. NME had lost its crown as the fastest, and MM was now the slackard.

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