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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    It's that man Tony Burrows again, in at number 22 with the ridiculously catcy 'Gimme Dat Ding'.

    I'm not quite sure how I've overlooked it until now but it's great to see 'Something's Burning' by Kenny Rogers in the charts. It's a great song.

    For all BMRB are ahead of the game with new entries, fast movers and fast fallers, the bottom 10 of their top 30 chart sometimes gets bogged down with old hits lingering on. 'Two Little Boys' and 'Elizabethan Reggae' plus 'My Way' drifting in and out of the chart. The smaller amount of chart return shops and possibly the smaller range of singles some of those shops sold are probably playing a part here.
    It was a small world for the charts in 1970. The other chap on the record was Roger Greenaway. Famous for the Cook/Greenaway song writers. The song itself was written by Albert Hammond who wrote all these:The later in the chart now!
    At one time I remember reading in one of the hit singles books that Jonathan King had claimed to have been the Pipkins, but that was proved false.

    The lingering effect was not the few shops took part, they had 300 on the go more than the others, but as complained about in many of the Music Papers many shops stocked the top 50 only. Now the fact that people complained they only stocked top 50 was stocked, proves that as far as the record shops were concerned they were ignoring the other charts as none of them were a top 50.

    I do know of an error in the BMRB chart, that you couldn't know till you see the Real Chart. That concerns the very long run of the Archies record Sugar Sugar. At some point the BMRB must have mixed up the record number of the act's follow up single "Jingle Jangle" and continued to count the sales of the old one instead. At one point Sugar Sugar goes down and then back up again for no real reason. The Real Chart has both in the chart, but the newer single is landing roughly or sometimes in the same place as the old single on the BMRB chart. The newer single also has a decent amount of owns on 45 Cat, showing that it was popular. The BMRB chart was computerised at this point, so if somebody didn't code the record Jingle Jangle correctly nobody would have notice. It would have only been in the lower part of the chart, not the 30, so the sales wouldn't have been enough for the record company to say we have huge stocks going out of the record and no chart position?

    Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

    Comment


    • Hammond also now given part credit for Radiohead's 'Creep' after it was found to have plagiarised 'The air that I breath'.

      Comment


      • ^ A tad tenuous if you ask me, but then in this era of songwriters sometimes even volunteering to offer a share of royalties to writers of another track which may be construed as only having a passing resemblance to their composition, I suppose it's less of a surprise.

        Comment


        • Two Little Boys still lingering on the BMRB chart.

          Don't they know its time to go?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Graham76man View Post


            The lingering effect was not the few shops took part, they had 300 on the go more than the others, but as complained about in many of the Music Papers many shops stocked the top 50 only. Now the fact that people complained they only stocked top 50 was stocked, proves that as far as the record shops were concerned they were ignoring the other charts as none of them were a top 50.

            I do know of an error in the BMRB chart, that you couldn't know till you see the Real Chart. That concerns the very long run of the Archies record Sugar Sugar. At some point the BMRB must have mixed up the record number of the act's follow up single "Jingle Jangle" and continued to count the sales of the old one instead. At one point Sugar Sugar goes down and then back up again for no real reason. The Real Chart has both in the chart, but the newer single is landing roughly or sometimes in the same place as the old single on the BMRB chart. The newer single also has a decent amount of owns on 45 Cat, showing that it was popular. The BMRB chart was computerised at this point, so if somebody didn't code the record Jingle Jangle correctly nobody would have notice. It would have only been in the lower part of the chart, not the 30, so the sales wouldn't have been enough for the record company to say we have huge stocks going out of the record and no chart position?
            I believe the BMRB chart was computerised from the outset. Or at least, computerised in the 1960s sense of the word. The serial numbers from all the diaries were typed / input on to punched cards which were then ran through the computer. The computer itself was probably massive and was also kept in a secret location. All that was known is that it wasn't at BMRB's offices but instead was at a nearby location (both being in Ealing in west London). It all sounds both very secretive and impressive until you realise that the computer could do little mnore than add up the amount of times a serial number had been input. It saved someone having to manually count all the entries. The chart print out was simply a list of serial numbers ranked in order of "sales" (the amount of times the serial number appeared). I imagine the printer paper was similar to that used in businesses up and down the country, the green and white type that can be seen by clicking on https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/xXRez...-45506-a_1.jpg

            In theory it should have been difficult to mix up records. Each serial number that was entered in the diaries had a corresponding index card raised by BMRB. The index cards were held by BMRB at their Ealing office. When the chart (a list of serial numbers at this point, as above) was printed Alisa Walker of BMRB would match serial numbers to titles and handwrite the finished overall chart. There should have been one index card for RCA 1872 (Sugar Sugar) and one for RCA 1918 (Jingle Jangle). Any error in recording would be down to the dealer writing down the wrong serial number. Labels would have been shouting from the rooftops about transcription errors of dealers were mixing up serial numbers. Later BMRB seem to have moved from dealers writing down every serial number of every record sold to a hybrid mix of using tick boxes for already charting product with the tick boxes to the right of the title (this is shown on the World In Action documentary in 1980) and blank spaces for writing down serial numbers for titles not listed. I don't know when this style of diary was first used. I doubt it was used from the start (in 1969). It certainly was in use in 1980. The computer system was overhauled in October 1979, which is when the albums chart was able to be compiled and published in the same week. I am guessing that it was then easier to input sales data but it was still a manual process to get the sales data on to the computer.

            Comment


            • The other point I meant to add in to my post above is regarding the panel size, which Graham also mentioned. Yes, it was 300 shops, in that 300 diaries were sent out. However, as has been pointed out previously, the BMRB didn't receive 300 diaries back, nor seemingly anywhere near 300 diaries. Alan Smith established in the early days that BMRB found it difficult to get anywhere near 300 diaries and the amount of joint positions in the charts of 1969 suggests a low number of diaries were used to compile the charts. The amount of diaries is of course what makes this part (1969-71) of MrTibbs' thread interesting. Even in the mid 1970s the amount of diaries being received on time was only about 75%. Of course this would vary from week to week but the general trend seems to be that it was the one aspect of the BMRB chart compilation process that was notably lacking.

              All I know is that by the mid 1970s the effective sample (diaries received on time) was around 75% of what it should have been. Even then, some diaries may not have been completed properly. In addition, to ensure that the sample itself couldn't be compromised, not every diary that was received could be used. If all diaries were used then the hypers only had to ensure a diary was completed properly and sent back in good time. If the hypers knew in advance that the diary would be used it would act as an incentive to hype. There had to be some (probably small if the truth be told) doubt that the diary would be discarded in the sampling process.

              Comment


              • Record Retailer's chart page from late September 1969 prints the following every week.

                ''Top 50 compiled for Record Retailer, Record Mirror, Billboard and the BBC from a panel of 300 record shops by BMRB. Records which tie for one place are listed in alphabetical order''

                The wording is important here. It clearly states FROM a panel of 300 not BY a panel of 300 which seems to indicate only a proportion of this figure was used.

                Also, it would seem that where we thought that by late 1969 into 1970 tied positions had been eradicated from the Top 50 the above statement indicates that was not the case and these continued but they were simply 'listed in alphabetical order' rather than having both tied positions printed equally. This statement further supports the view that BMRB were still not using a particularly large sample even by 1970. So perhaps the guesstimate we reached in discussion about the slowly increasing sample size used in The Ultimate Averaged Chart isn't that far out.

                Lastly, for BMRB to openly admit that the all singing all dancing 'official' chart just broke a tied chart place by the luck of a title being lower in the alphabet beggars belief.
                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                Comment


                • Your both splitting hairs here. It wasn't common for the BMRB to get the numbers wrong. It was one occurrence and the dealers wouldn't have known if a record they had written down was selling enough to make the chart. The record companies could not check the diaries so they wouldn't know a thing. As I said the record was selling in small numbers in any case. They wouldn't have been getting loads of dealers asking for the record above the normal amount that would have been asking for. It wouldn't have made the top 30 for instance, when in the BMRB chart. In any case BMRB took out lots of records that were selling large numbers if they were NOT national sales, especially football records! That must have got dealers mad anyway and the record companies too. I should imagine Record Companies kept the lines busy at BMRB wanting to know why this record was not in the chart. Or asking if this or that record was selling. One of the 1970's paper reported that CBS had a Bob Dylan record selling very large amounts. But it wasn't in the BMRB chart.
                  Much later in date, I do remember one manger of a Woolworth store saying that the national charts looked like his sales for that store. Which struck me as odd at the time, since it was a National Chart using more than just Woolies, so NO WAY could any store would look anything like the National Chart! Just to prove the point one 90's TV show, on a Saturday, would visit one (different) shop each week to tell them the sales. Once a store had NONE of the National top ten records in it's top top ten!

                  And of course no system is perfect. So once the error is made, (and I'm not arguing who made the error), unless you have another sales chart produced by counting record sales, not points. You will never spot such a mistake that somebody made along the line.

                  Yes it is true that they didn't get all 300 shops sending information, but it wasn't a sample of the 300. It was the amount that came in the post on time and wasn't covered in tea, coffee, or look like it had been chewed by mice!

                  However the BMRB chart like it's successors is secretive on the numbers of records sold. Each week the charts do NOT list the weekly sales of the records. They do tell certain people. But I can't understand why they don't just list the sales anyway. This means to me they are hiding something, otherwise you could get a chart from 1969 or 1979 and know the exact amount each record had sold that week.
                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                  Comment


                  • Greetings Pop Pickers

                    Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 11th 1970

                    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 11th 1970 NME MM BMRB Total
                    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 125 Points
                    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
                    1 1 Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel 1 1 1 17250
                    2 2 Can't Help Falling In Love - Andy Williams 2 2 3 16550
                    4 3 Knock Knock Who's There - Mary Hopkin 3 3 4 15975
                    5 4 Young Gifted And Black - Bob and Marcia 4 4 8 15025
                    18 5 All Kinds Of Everything - Dana 5 8 2 14575
                    3 6 Wand'rin Star - Lee Marvin 7 5 5 14550
                    15 7 Spirit In The Sky - Norman Greenbaum 6 7 6 14125
                    6 8 That Same Old Feeling - Pickettywitch 9 6 7 13650
                    11 9 Something's Burning - Kenny Rogers and The First Edition 8 9 9 12850
                    7 10 Let It Be - The Beatles 10 10 11 11950
                    13 11 Farewell Is A Lonely Sound - Jimmy Ruffin 12 11 13 11050
                    17 12 I Can't Help Myself - The Four Tops 11 13 12 10875
                    22 13 Gimme Dat Ding - The Pipkins 13 14 10 10475
                    8 14 Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye - Steam 14 12 18 9775
                    9 15 Don't Cry Daddy - Elvis Presley 16 16 14 8875
                    10 16 Everybody Get Together - The Dave Clark Five 17 15 15 8800
                    16 17 You're Such A Good Looking Woman - Joe Dolan 15 19 17 7950
                    12 18 I Want You Back - The Jackson Five 19 18 20 7025
                    21 19 Who Do You Love - Juicy Lucy 18 17 25 6850
                    25 20 When Julie Comes Around - The Cuff Links 22 20 16 6425
                    NEW 21 Never Had A Dream Come True - Stevie Wonder 20 22 19 5950
                    14 22 Years May Come Years May Go - Herman's Hermits 24 21 22 5025
                    27 23 Good Morning Freedom - Blue Mink 22 24 21 4800
                    NEW 24 Travellin' Band - Creedence Clearwater Revival 21 26 27 3750
                    19 25 Let's Work Together - Canned Heat 23 24 2875
                    NEW 26 House Of The Rising Sun - Frijid Pink 28 27 1600
                    20 27 Instant Karma - Lennon/Ono and The Plastic Ono Band 25 1500
                    NEW 28 I'll Go On Hoping - Des O'Connor 25 1200
                    24 29 Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head - Sacha Distel 29 26 1125
                    NEW 30 Rag Mama Rag - The Band 27 30 1050
                    B The Seeker - The Who 26 1000
                    29 Sympathy - Rare Bird 27 1000
                    B Govinda - The Radha Krishna Temple 23 1000
                    Joy Of Living - Cliff Richard and Hank Marvin 29 400
                    26 Love Grows (Where My Rosemary Goes) - Edison Lighthouse 28 375
                    30 Leaving On A Jet Plane - Peter Paul and Mary 29 250
                    28 Nobody's Fool - Jim Reeves 30 200
                    Two Little Boys - Rolf Harris 30 125
                    23 United We Stand - The Brotherhood Of Man
                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                    Comment


                    • The "Band" were not originally called that when they started in 1968. Here's an extract from my blog on what was put on the first single The Weight:
                      because the group hadn't called themselves anything. So they put everyone's name as the artist. Who were: Jaime Robbie Robertson, Rick Danko, Richard Manuel, Garth Hudson and Levon Helm. In the end they became known as "The Band" and that's what I have gone with. Indeed every chart went with that! Was it an ego thing, or were they just slow on deciding a name.
                      https://therealchart.blogspot.com/p/this-weeks-chart-real-chart-music.html


                      I
                      did a video for my number one collection and put it up on YouTube of Bridge Over Troubled Water. It was on YouTube ages, till the record company brought out a new S & G collection, then they made YouTube remove it. The company would have been getting money for the video everytime it was played. But it just goes to show you how petty minded record companies are.
                      Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                        compiled ... from a panel of 300 record shops
                        This wording is similar to what NME told The Sun reporters in 1964. They emphasised the 300 figure, which was simply the list of shops they had an arrangement with, and kept quiet about the number of shops they actually phoned. If their team of 6 phoned 25 each, the actual survey total was 150.

                        Comment


                        • duplicate

                          Comment


                          • Hello
                            Re: sheet music charts - sorry, a brief diversion away from the terrific UAC again.

                            I would love to share my MPA sheet music files. However there one or two issues that we should check before we start a new thread.

                            Firstly, checking files in my loft, I notice there are some omissions, notably the whole of 1981 when it went monthly, so apologies for that.

                            Back in the 1980s I requested permission from the MPA to collate and publish these charts in a book. However this was politely refused, on the basis that permission had already been given for such a book. This turned out to be “First Hits” by Brian Henson and Colin Morgan, which I thoroughly recommend, but which might be hard to find now.

                            Since then author-compiler David Armstrong has published “British Music Charts Volume 1: 1947-1959”, which is readily available, and is a straightforward no-frills listing. Therefore there is no need to post the charts from 1947 to 1959.
                            The author clearly states his ambition to prepare a Volume 2, and maybe a Volume 3. If he is close to completion on this project, I would not want to rain on his parade. Does anybody have a contact detail for this author, so we can ask?

                            Also, I notice that the OCC do not slap takedowns on the facebook charts thread, because all the reproduced OCC charts there are for 1 week only, and would arguably be deemed as “fair use” in a journalistic/commentary forum. However, the MPA remains a fully functioning organisation that may have a different point of view if they spot a full chronological listing of their data, as opposed to the odd chart. That is why I suggested help in “filling in the gaps”, which arguably would be “fair use”.

                            Also, these charts are hard copies and not scanned yet. It will take a little time to scan several years’ worth. And be prepared for the abundance of show tunes, TV themes and other songs never released on a 45rpm record!

                            Incidentally, this was not the last of UK music publisher charts. The OCC published a weekly ringtones chart from October 2005 to December 2006, comprising slot-machine-sound renditions of top tunes, to which not one artist or record label contributed anything. Needless to say, the record business wanted to be involved and obliged realtones availability from their artists, sales of which were collated within the OCC singles chart. So it was nasty while it lasted. You won’t find ringtones on the OCC website archive though. Funny that.

                            So, your thoughts please on seeing if we can locate the author David Armstrong.

                            Comment


                            • ^
                              a new thread has already been started which will address some of the points you raised https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...-december-1939

                              the sheet music charts up to the 1960s are already available elsewhere so MrTibbs decided not to post them as it would be duplicating what is out there.

                              The book by David Armstrong you mentioned is from 2011. If volume 2 has yet to appear after a decade it suggests it isn't likely to do so.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Splodj View Post

                                This wording is similar to what NME told The Sun reporters in 1964. They emphasised the 300 figure, which was simply the list of shops they had an arrangement with, and kept quiet about the number of shops they actually phoned. If their team of 6 phoned 25 each, the actual survey total was 150.
                                Keeping quite didn't work, the NME had a lot of hyped records in the charts they produced. Especially the new entries. The team itself would have been under massive pressure from the record labels with plenty of cash flowing. It would be interesting to see how many staff changes there were on the team. But such things are naturally not available to the public, even if the NME records were stored somewhere. Most archives have 100 year rules to protect living people. That NME book does confirm they had 150 shops on the books by 1967.

                                Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                                  ^

                                  The book by David Armstrong you mentioned is from 2011. If volume 2 has yet to appear after a decade it suggests it isn't likely to do so.
                                  The David Armstrong book is not very good. When I got it I told Dave Taylor I had it, he was mad! He said that much of the information in the book was pinched from him and not only that he messed it up! So Dave supplied me with a file of the charts.
                                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                  Comment


                                  • Youse guys are talking about 2 different David Armstrong books. The one 'membranemusic' is referring to, British Music Charts Vol 1 1947-59, is a sheet music charts book. The one Graham is referring to, Pick of the Pops 1957-69, is the BBC record charts, data pinched from Dave Taylor/Trevor Ager.

                                    Comment


                                    • Two Little Boys still no. 30 on BMRB chart. Hopefully this will be the last week!

                                      After 5 weeks The Beatles Let It Be is awarded a Silver Disc for 250,000 sales.

                                      Also, after 7 weeks Bridge Over Troubled Water was awarded a Silver Disc for 250,000 sales.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                                        I imagine the printer paper was similar to that used in businesses up and down the country, the green and white type that can be seen by clicking on https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/xXRez...-45506-a_1.jpg
                                        Great picture - brings back memories of University days using punched cards and getting printouts on such paper.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
                                          Youse guys are talking about 2 different David Armstrong books. The one 'membranemusic' is referring to, British Music Charts Vol 1 1947-59, is a sheet music charts book. The one Graham is referring to, Pick of the Pops 1957-69, is the BBC record charts, data pinched from Dave Taylor/Trevor Ager.
                                          David Armstrong is not a reputable author. He did no research of his own on any of his books and as Robin correctly asserts he simply pinched data from other contributors like Trevor and Dave and quickly cobbled together his books. The POTP one is riddled with errors and I don't mean occasional ones, and the sheet music one has charts missing from 1955. He won't publish any more books, he did a quick hit and run and then vanished.
                                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                                            Two Little Boys still no. 30 on BMRB chart. Hopefully this will be the last week!

                                            After 5 weeks The Beatles Let It Be is awarded a Silver Disc for 250,000 sales.

                                            Also, after 7 weeks Bridge Over Troubled Water was awarded a Silver Disc for 250,000 sales.
                                            That must have been on sales in the 300 shops only of BMRB, for by the 12 April 1970 S&G had sold over a million and the Beatles 697,000.
                                            Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                            Comment


                                            • I just discovered on facebook (thanks Pete Seaton) that the WorldRadioHistory.com site has an update page, whereby you can see what historical music magazines (and otherwise) have been added to the archive, and when. Bookmark it, and check it often !! Go here:

                                              https://worldradiohistory.com/A-Worl...ry-Updates.htm

                                              Comment


                                              • Greetings Pop Pickers

                                                Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 18th 1970

                                                Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders ''

                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 18th 1970 NME MM BMRB Total
                                                Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 125 Points
                                                Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
                                                1 1 Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel 1 1 2 17125
                                                5 2 All Kinds Of Everything - Dana 2 2 1 16800
                                                7 3 Spirit In The Sky - Norman Greenbaum 3 3 5 15850
                                                2 4 Can't Help Falling In Love - Andy Williams 4 4 3 15650
                                                3 5 Knock Knock Who's There - Mary Hopkin 5 5 4 15075
                                                4 6 Young Gifted And Black - Bob and Marcia 6 6 7 14250
                                                13 7 Gimme Dat Ding - The Pipkins 7 7 6 13925
                                                6 8 Wand'rin Star - Lee Marvin 10 8 8 12825
                                                9 9 Something's Burning - Kenny Rogers and The First Edition 8 9 15 12100
                                                8 10 That Same Old Feeling - Pickettywitch 9 11 11 11900
                                                12 11 I Can't Help Myself - The Four Tops 11 10 10 11875
                                                11 12 Farewell Is A Lonely Sound - Jimmy Ruffin 12 12 9 11300
                                                20 13 When Julie Comes Around - The Cuff Links 14 14 12 10025
                                                10 14 Let It Be - The Beatles 13 13 16 9975
                                                19 15 Who Do You Love - Juicy Lucy 15 15 14 9325
                                                21 16 Never Had A Dream Come True - Stevie Wonder 18 16 13 8600
                                                23 17 Good Morning Freedom - Blue Mink 16 17 18 8125
                                                17 18 You're Such A Good Looking Woman - Joe Dolan 17 18 17 7800
                                                24 19 Travellin' Band - Creedence Clearwater Revival 19 19 19 6900
                                                15 20 Don't Cry Daddy - Elvis Presley 20 21 20 6075
                                                14 21 Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye - Steam 21 20 22 5875
                                                16 22 Everybody Get Together - The Dave Clark Five 22 22 23 5050
                                                26 23 House Of The Rising Sun - Frijid Pink 24 24 21 4400
                                                NEW 24 Govinda - The Radha Krishna Temple 25 26 29 2700
                                                18 25 I Want You Back - The Jackson Five 29 23 30 2525
                                                30 26 Rag Mama Rag - The Band 25 25 2250
                                                22 27 Years May Come Years May Go - Herman's Hermits 27 24 1875
                                                NEW 28 Do The Funky Chicken - Rufus Thomas 23 1600
                                                NEW 29 The Seeker - The Who 27 29 1300
                                                NEW 30 Daughter Of Darkness - Tom Jones 26 1000
                                                29 Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head - Sacha Distel 28 750
                                                B Back Home - The England World Cup Squad '70 26 625
                                                Why ( Must We Fall In Love) - Diana Ross and The Supremes and the Temptations 28 600
                                                B I've Got You On My Mind - White Plains 27 500
                                                28 I'll Go On Hoping - Des O'Connor 29 400
                                                B I Don't Believe In If Anymore - Roger Whittaker 28 375
                                                25 Let's Work Together - Canned Heat 30 250
                                                27 Instant Karma - Lennon/Ono and The Plastic Ono Band
                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                                Comment


                                                • I like Dana’s song - wonder if it will make 1 on the Ultimate chart? Again it does show the BMRB to be ‘ahead” of the others in a slow Top 30 this week (1 new entry).
                                                  http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                                  Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                                  Comment


                                                  • For the above chart Dana sold 191,000 S&G 155,000, yet two charts have the top seller wrong, should that be three out of Four?
                                                    Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                                    Comment

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