The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending June 2nd 1962

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 2nd 1962								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	8100
3	2	I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard					2	3	2	2	2	7750
2	3	Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers					3	4	3	3	3	7480
6	4	As You Like It - Adam Faith					4	5	4	4	5	7180
11	5	Come Outside - Mike Sarne					5	2	5	7	6	7130
5	6	Love Letters - Ketty Lester					6	9	6	6	7	6480
10	7	Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland					8	8	7	5	10	6410
8	8	Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury					7	6	9	10	4	6280
13	9	I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane					9	7	10	8	8	6070
4	10	Wonderful Land - The Shadows					10	12	8	9	9	5810
7	11	Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee					11	17	11	11	14	4830
25	12	A Picture Of You - Joe Brown					14	10	15	16	18	4580
21	13	The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball					12	11	16	13	17	4570
9	14	Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon					15	20	13	15	15	4140
15	15	Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk					13	14	12		11	4050
14	16	The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams					16	15	18	17	13	3950
20	17	Lonely City - John Leyton					18	18	17	12	20	3860
12	18	When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Jimmy Justice					17	16	14		12	3640
17	19	Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro						23	21	18		2390
NEW	20	Unsquare Dance - Dave Brubeck						19	20		24	2380
30	21	How Can I Meet Her - The Everly Brothers					19	30	22	14	19	2280
18	22	The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan					20	26	24	19	16	2220
16	23	Hey Baby - Bruce Channel							19	20	23	2110
22	24	Everybody's Twistin' - Frank Sinatra						24	25		27	1340
29	25	Lover Please - The Vernons Girls						20	30		22	1260
19	26	Dream Baby - Roy Orbison							23			880
NEW	27	Jezebel - Marty Wilde						27	27		30	790
NEW	28	Deep In The Heart Of Texas - Duane Eddy						22			29	780
24	29	Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley							26		26	700
26	30	Never Goodbye - Karl Denver							28		21	630
		The River's Run Dry - Vince Hill						25				480
B		Ginny Come Lately - Steve Perry						28				240
		King Of Clowns - Neil Sedaka							29			220
B		Besame Mucho - Jet Harris									25	180
B		A Little Love A Little Kiss - Karl Denver						29				160
27		Young World - Ricky Nelson									28	90
		Swinging In The Rain - Norman Vaughan						30				80
		Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard						13
23		Twistin' The Night Away - Sam Cooke										0
28		When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Craig Douglas										0

[Graham76man]

I pulled off the files that I downloaded from UKMIX for the top 50 and MM 30, which are actually dated w/e 15 Feb 1969 for the change over chart. Th massive difference is the number one from Amen Corner, only 7 on MM. It was 4 on NME. Plus two records not in the top 50 at all from Dusty at 23 (an old record too plus climbing too!) and the Simon and Garfunkel EP at 24 (NME 20). Diana Ross 26 MM and 43 BMRB, 30 NME.

[Graham76man]

Having seen the 22 Feb issue of MM, for the paper to produce it's own editorial on the front page implies that somebody or some organisation had attacked the paper and it's charts. As with many of these slanging matches. The paper's lawyers must have told them not to reply directly to the allegations or quote the source, but to quote some "bullshit" about how good the paper was. We have seen this many times in the papers and TV about some firm, or individual who has been caught out in an expose, so you can take the article with a pinch of salt.
It might have been a TV expose or a newspaper, but without going through the national press archives it's going to be hard to track the cause of the defence down.
I suppose it could be something to do with when the first "sales" based chart came out showing so serious flaws of the Melody Maker records from the BMRB chart. But it could be something completely unconnected.
Might be worth posting the top 30 of the new BMRB chart and Melody Makers 30 chart to see if something odd can be seen that someone might pick up.

[MrTibbs]

My concern on the proposed 1968+ figures would be the ratios. Up to 1969 I am happy about the ratios if sceptical about the actual numbers. (I have no doubt AS reported honestly, but think there was a bit of 'rounding up' in what he was told.) If you are starting with 60 for BMRB and 250/200 MM/NME that seems to be too disadvantageous a ratio for BMRB, particularly as they monitored actual sales. As a general rule I think if there is doubt about the ratios the fairest policy is parity.

Anyway that is my little contribution and I will be interested to see what other think.

After I posted it did actually occur to me that while I was at that moment focussed on MM and NME that then using 60 for BMRB would be disproportionate practically rendering it ineffective. Although I do stick with the 200/250 for NME and MM for 69 and then reduce in 70.

Here is an interesting article published on the front page of the MM on the week BMRB launched in Feb 69.

''And Derek Jewell, jazz and pop critic of the Sunday Times, said on BBC-TV last month that the MM's pop chart was "absolutely honest" and that the MM Pop 50 had been reduced to 30 because the bottom 20 placings were in danger of being manipulated by unscrupulous people. • In fact. the MM '• Pop 30 is the most respected pop chart in the country - used weekly by leading newspapers like the Daily Mirror (the highest circulating daily paper), the Daily Telegraph, the People. the News of the World and the Scottish Sunday Mail. and Daily Record as well as many leading provincial daily papers. • The chart is compiled in conditions of secrecy under strict supervision by the MM 's expert staff. It is accurate, impartial, honest.''

That bold statement launched alongside the BMRB chart doesn't sound to me to be a chart imminently about to reduce it's sample size.

Robin offered his thoughts on figures for BMRB, and in fairness his figure of the reported 20 to 25 percent of diary returns for the first months are well documented and accepted hence why I went with those as my starting point.

Give me your thoughts Splodj on credible figures to use to use for BMRB in the first couple of years, to add to Robin's, and indeed I too would still welcome anyone else's views on this. I really do want a credible baseline figure to work with to really make the Feb 69 project viable.

[Graham76man]

The BMRB chart didn't come cheap. Just read in a 1969 edition of MM that the BBC's contribution to the chart back then was £5000 a year.

Which MM edition was that?

By 1976 the full cost of the charts was £56,000 a year! Met by the BBC, Music Week and the BPI.

[Splodj]

My concern on the proposed 1968+ figures would be the ratios. Up to 1969 I am happy about the ratios if sceptical about the actual numbers. (I have no doubt AS reported honestly, but think there was a bit of 'rounding up' in what he was told.) If you are starting with 60 for BMRB and 250/200 MM/NME that seems to be too disadvantageous a ratio for BMRB, particularly as they monitored actual sales. As a general rule I think if there is doubt about the ratios the fairest policy is parity.

Also, knowing more about the weaknesses of a particular chart does not necessarily mean they are worse than the others who are more secretive. I've often thought this when I have been criticising the composite BBC chart; just because their mistakes are more visible does not mean that NME etc weren't making just as many mistakes.

Anyway that is my little contribution and I will be interested to see what other think.

[membranemusic]

Robin,. my recollection is that Record Retailer was available from1968 from just one paper shop that happened to be in Old Compton Street in Soho, London W1. I worked around the corner at that time, so making a weekly beeline was no problem, and I could pick up all the other music papers a day early, unlike the rest of chart-humanity. But as Graham remarks, the clue is when RR started to print a cover price.

[MrTibbs]

Brian, the BMRB numbers look reasonable. However I don't think MM and NME would have dropped to 100 that quickly / Feb 69. From what we know from Alan and Dave and maybe other sources, MM and NME did drop, the question is when. Alan says later, Dave says in 1969, but Dave doesn't say WHEN in 1969, it could have been Dec 31. I just wouldn't think MM and NME would have dropped the very month that BMRB arrived on the scene. They would have keep on chooglin' till some time later.

BMRB was not immediately accepted by everyone in the 'industry', especially with all the early goofs and ties and low diary turn-ins. Many still went with the superior MM and NME charts, thus no reason for them to reduce until sometime after they lost influence. I need to re-read Alan's and Dave's postings.

Plus maybe there's info in MM and NME themselves. The now WorldRadioHistory website has every issue of MM from 1969, and some from 1970/71, and all of NME from 1969. Maybe there are articles that point to when a drop occurred...

I've had a good look last night and this morning through all the issues of NME and MM for 1969 and 1970 on the World Radio History site but don't see any reference to a reduction in store poll size for those years.
It looks like it was never mentioned when it happened.

All we know is it was still reportedly 200/250 respectively in February 1969 and most likely the stated 100 by March 1971. I believe the 200/250 would have held through 1969. I say this because MM never mentioned a reduction in store sample taking please and still promoted their chart through 1969 in their paper as the most accurate, and continuing to list the number of daily newspapers still carrying their chart. I don't believe they would have done this if they had cut back at this time. I believe NME would also likely have continued as they were for 1969 in line with this.

So, I believe a reduction in stages could be applied throughout 1970 to reach the 100 each by March 1971. I think this is both the most practical and fairest way to approach this.

Let it be written, Let it be done

[MrTibbs]

I think his best hit was, That's What Love Will Do, I'm charting that right now as I work on March 1963.

[Woz1234]

I Like Joe Brown got his Best Of Album a few years ago.

[MrTibbs]

You'll have to wait and see

[Splodj]

I saw Joe Brown say (half jokingly) that his only number one had been taken away from him. So it will be interesting to see if the Ultimate gives it back!

[MrTibbs]

And the party is almost over for Lonnie. He has been a chart stalwart and a huge influence on other artists since he first charted in 1956. He will have one more Top 20 hit later this year and then be swept away amidst so many other regulars we see here as Beatlemania and the other new British groups move in and take hold changing the British music scene for ever.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 26th 1962

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 26th 1962								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	8100
2	2	Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers					2=	3	2	3	2	7700
3	3	I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard					2=	2	3	2	3	7690
4	4	Wonderful Land - The Shadows					6	6	4	5	6	7020
5	5	Love Letters - Ketty Lester					5	4	5	8	4	6980
8	6	As You Like It - Adam Faith					4	5	6	4	5	6960
6	7	Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee					7	11	7	6	7	6210
12	8	Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury					8	8	9	7	11	6060
7	9	Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon					9	14	8	9	8	5680
21	10	Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland					11	10	12	11	10	5400
18	11	Come Outside - Mike Sarne					12	6	14	10	17	5340
10	12	When My Little Girl is Smiling - Jimmy Justice					10	16	11	14	9	4910
28	13	I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane					13	9	17	12	18	4640
13	14	The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams					15	15	15	15	13	4380
16	15	Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk					14	13	10		12	4320
9	16	Hey Baby - Bruce Channel					16	23	13	13	14	4030
14	17	Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro					18	17	19	16	23	3430
15	18	The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan					19	22	18	19	19	3110
11	19	Dream Baby - Roy Orbison						26	16	20	22	2870
20	20	Lonely City - John Leyton					20	25	20	17	20	2720
27	21	The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball					17	12	30	18	24	2490
24	22	Everybody's Twistin' - Frank Sinatra						21	23		29	1740
19	23	Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke						20	25		28	1630
22	24	Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley							21		16	1550
30	25	A Picture Of You - Joe Brown						17	29		27	1460
17	26	Never Goodbye - Karl Denver							24		15	1250
23	27	Young World - Ricky Nelson							22		26	1140
26	28	When My Little Girl is Smiling - Craig Douglas							26		21	850
29	29	Lover Please - The Vernons Girls						23				640
NEW	30	How Can I Meet Her - The Everly Brothers						27			25	500
B		Unsquare Dance - Dave Brubeck							27			440
25		King Of Clowns - Neil Sedaka							28		30	360
B		Besame Mucho - Jet Harris						28				240
B		Deep In The Heart Of Texas - Duane Eddy						28				240
		Swinging In The Rain - Norman Vaughan						28				240
B		Jezebel - Marty Wilde						28				240
		Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard						19

[brian05]

I have a Record Retailer for 4th October 1969 priced at 2s 6d (old money!) bought in a newsagent shop.
It has the Top 20 for October 12th 1961.

[MrTibbs]

The BMRB chart didn't come cheap. Just read in a 1969 edition of MM that the BBC's contribution to the chart back then was £5000 a year.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 19th 1962

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 19th 1962								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
9	1	Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley					1	1	2	1	2	7960
1	2	Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers					2	3	1	2	1	7890
11	3	I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard					3	2	4	3	4	7500
2	4	Wonderful Land - The Shadows					4	5	3	4	3	7350
6	5	Love Letters - Ketty Lester					6	4	5	8	6	6920
3	6	Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee					5	6	6	5	5	6830
4	7	Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon					8	8	7	7	8	6370
16	8	As You Like It - Adam Faith					7	7	10	6	7	6200
5	9	Hey Baby - Bruce Channel					9	10	8	11	10	5840
7	10	When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Jimmy Justice					10	9	10	13	9	5630
8	11	Dream Baby - Roy Orbison					12	14	9	12	14	5240
19	12	Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury					11	12	14	9	15	4970
10	13	The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams					13	13	13	14	12	4840
20	14	Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro					16	16	18	10	26	3830
14	15	The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan					19	20	15	18	17	3710
15	16	Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk					15	18	12		13	3670
13	17	Never Goodbye - Karl Denver					17	22	20	15	11	3330
29	18	Come Outside - Mike Sarne					18	11	23	17	29	3240
12	19	Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke					14	15	17		18	3210
28	20	Lonely City - John Leyton						17	24	19	25	2670
NEW	21	Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland						26	21	16	19	2610
17	22	Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley					20		16		16	2100
23	23	Young World - Ricky Nelson						27	18		21	2050
21	24	Everybody's Twistin' - Frank Sinatra						19	25		22	1890
25	25	King Of Clowns - Neil Sedaka						21	28		23	1370
18	26	When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Craig Douglas							22		20	1320
NEW	27	The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball						22		20		1270
NEW	28	I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane						25	29		28	790
NEW	29	Lover Please - The Vernons Girls						22				720
24	30	Theme From 'Z Cars' - Johnny Keating							27		24	650
22		Tell Me What He Said - Helen Shapiro							26			550
B		A Picture Of You - Joe Brown						28				240
B		How Can I Meet Her - The Everly Brothers						29				160
26		Theme From 'Dr. Kildare' - Johnny Spence							30		30	140
27		Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker									27	120
		Johnny Angel - Patti Lynn						30				80
B		Jezebel - Marty Wilde						30				80
30		Theme From 'Maigret' - Joe Loss

[Richard M White]

Shouldn't that read "changed to Sat -Fri in 1975" ?

I remember reading somewhere it was because the postal service stopped working Sundays!

The week was changed from "Mon-Sat" to "Sat-Fri" and yes Tony gave that very explanation in the book

[MrTibbs]

Brian, the BMRB numbers look reasonable. However I don't think MM and NME would have dropped to 100 that quickly / Feb 69. From what we know from Alan and Dave and maybe other sources, MM and NME did drop, the question is when. Alan says later, Dave says in 1969, but Dave doesn't say WHEN in 1969, it could have been Dec 31. I just wouldn't think MM and NME would have dropped the very month that BMRB arrived on the scene. They would have keep on chooglin' till some time later.

BMRB was not immediately accepted by everyone in the 'industry', especially with all the early goofs and ties and low diary turn-ins. Many still went with the superior MM and NME charts, thus no reason for them to reduce until sometime after they lost influence. I need to re-read Alan's and Dave's postings.

Plus maybe there's info in MM and NME themselves. The now WorldRadioHistory website has every issue of MM from 1969, and some from 1970/71, and all of NME from 1969. Maybe there are articles that point to when a drop occurred...

I think that's a valid point. Of course MM and NME wouldn't immediately drop at the beginning of the BMRB chart run when I think about it. I suppose it's reasonable to think they would carefully watch for a bit to see what it would deliver, how it would be accepted, if indeed the project would fall apart and be abandoned even.
Like you say MM and NME still had a large readership following their charts so no it would not immediately affect them.

So it is a case of when like you say. At some point in 1969 as Dave said, or early seventies like Alan said.
It may well have been a proportionate reduction too between '69 and early seventies.

I don't think there is any info out there (unless one of you whizz kids out there know better and let me know) on when and how they actually reduced. I too will look over the World Radio History site too for any possible clues.

Worst case scenario I think, failing that we can't pin down dates any further is to apply a gradual reduction strategy to them both (the opposite of what I did for BMRB) and over the 2 year period gradually reduce from 250/200 to 100 apiece.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Based on this here is what I am inclined to do once I get around to working on Feb'69 in around a month (I'm on February '63 right now).

Store Returns to be used 15th February 1969 to 20th March 1971 (end of postal strike)

BMRB 60 - Feb 69 to July 69
BMRB 90 - Aug 69 to Jan 70
BMRB 120 - Feb 70 to July 70
BMRB 150 - Aug 70 to Jan 71
BMRB 100 - Feb 71 to Mar 71 (BMRB reduced the chart to a Top 40 as reduced diaries returned due to postal strike)

MM - 100 Feb 69 to Mar 71

NME - 100 Feb 69 TO Mar 71

Do those figures look a good bet for working with ?

Brian, the BMRB numbers look reasonable. However I don't think MM and NME would have dropped to 100 that quickly / Feb 69. From what we know from Alan and Dave and maybe other sources, MM and NME did drop, the question is when. Alan says later, Dave says in 1969, but Dave doesn't say WHEN in 1969, it could have been Dec 31. I just wouldn't think MM and NME would have dropped the very month that BMRB arrived on the scene. They would have keep on chooglin' till some time later.

BMRB was not immediately accepted by everyone in the 'industry', especially with all the early goofs and ties and low diary turn-ins. Many still went with the superior MM and NME charts, thus no reason for them to reduce until sometime after they lost influence. I need to re-read Alan's and Dave's postings.

Plus maybe there's info in MM and NME themselves. The now WorldRadioHistory website has every issue of MM from 1969, and some from 1970/71, and all of NME from 1969. Maybe there are articles that point to when a drop occurred...

[Metalweb]

According to Tony Jasper's The 70s: A Book of Records, the chart week changed from Sat-Fri in 1975 (doesn't say when) and reverted back to Mon-Sat "from the end of September 1978" - the chart week then changed again for 2 months in Jan & Feb 1982 from Friday - Thursday resulting in numerous yo yo performances, in the same way Graham explains above

Shouldn't that read "changed to Sat -Fri in 1975" ?

I remember reading somewhere it was because the postal service stopped working Sundays!

[Richard M White]

I couldn't agree more!

[MrTibbs]

Yeah Richard, the rules were often changed along the way and the goal posts moved. Unfortunately 'Official' doesn't always mean accurate.

[Richard M White]

According to Tony Jasper's The 70s: A Book of Records, the chart week changed from Sat-Fri in 1975 (doesn't say when) and reverted back to Mon-Sat "from the end of September 1978" - the chart week then changed again for 2 months in Jan & Feb 1982 from Friday - Thursday resulting in numerous yo yo performances, in the same way Graham explains above

[Graham76man]

Neither Smiths or Boots were part of the shops used in 1971. They still were not on board in 1976 when Record Mirror ran an article. Woolies joined at the start of 1975. The stores were not taking part because they didn't want to give sales information to competing firms.
As somebody pointed out to me the other week on this forum, BMRB changed the sales week in 1976, so it ran from Friday to Thursday. This resulted in some records getting higher slots in their chart, so instead of a record being at 25, which for example could be the furthest it goes. It lands at 20 in the adjusted chart. As it takes in the "quarter" sales of the following week. But in the following week it's in decline and the quarter sales help keep it in the top 40, but lower than 25. The main effect of this week change was on Top of The Pops. So after TOTP performance a record goes into decline, then in the next chart it goes up! For example Tina Charles was on Top of The Pops on Thursday, but on the chart after the show she fell out of the top 50. Then the following week she returns to the chart. Another effect is to shift the number one change, making BMRB chart slower at changing the top seller, by one week. Then it seems that BMRB introduced a policy on records that were declining in sales, removing them before they would have dropped out of the top 50.
In many ways I think this makes the 1976 BMRB chart one of the worst charts. I don't know how long they kept the altered week.