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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending June 2nd 1962

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 2nd 1962 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 8100
    3 2 I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard 2 3 2 2 2 7750
    2 3 Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers 3 4 3 3 3 7480
    6 4 As You Like It - Adam Faith 4 5 4 4 5 7180
    11 5 Come Outside - Mike Sarne 5 2 5 7 6 7130
    5 6 Love Letters - Ketty Lester 6 9 6 6 7 6480
    10 7 Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland 8 8 7 5 10 6410
    8 8 Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury 7 6 9 10 4 6280
    13 9 I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane 9 7 10 8 8 6070
    4 10 Wonderful Land - The Shadows 10 12 8 9 9 5810
    7 11 Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee 11 17 11 11 14 4830
    25 12 A Picture Of You - Joe Brown 14 10 15 16 18 4580
    21 13 The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball 12 11 16 13 17 4570
    9 14 Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon 15 20 13 15 15 4140
    15 15 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 13 14 12 11 4050
    14 16 The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams 16 15 18 17 13 3950
    20 17 Lonely City - John Leyton 18 18 17 12 20 3860
    12 18 When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Jimmy Justice 17 16 14 12 3640
    17 19 Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro 23 21 18 2390
    NEW 20 Unsquare Dance - Dave Brubeck 19 20 24 2380
    30 21 How Can I Meet Her - The Everly Brothers 19 30 22 14 19 2280
    18 22 The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan 20 26 24 19 16 2220
    16 23 Hey Baby - Bruce Channel 19 20 23 2110
    22 24 Everybody's Twistin' - Frank Sinatra 24 25 27 1340
    29 25 Lover Please - The Vernons Girls 20 30 22 1260
    19 26 Dream Baby - Roy Orbison 23 880
    NEW 27 Jezebel - Marty Wilde 27 27 30 790
    NEW 28 Deep In The Heart Of Texas - Duane Eddy 22 29 780
    24 29 Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley 26 26 700
    26 30 Never Goodbye - Karl Denver 28 21 630
    The River's Run Dry - Vince Hill 25 480
    B Ginny Come Lately - Steve Perry 28 240
    King Of Clowns - Neil Sedaka 29 220
    B Besame Mucho - Jet Harris 25 180
    B A Little Love A Little Kiss - Karl Denver 29 160
    27 Young World - Ricky Nelson 28 90
    Swinging In The Rain - Norman Vaughan 30 80
    Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard 13
    23 Twistin' The Night Away - Sam Cooke 0
    28 When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Craig Douglas 0

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    I pulled off the files that I downloaded from UKMIX for the top 50 and MM 30, which are actually dated w/e 15 Feb 1969 for the change over chart. Th massive difference is the number one from Amen Corner, only 7 on MM. It was 4 on NME. Plus two records not in the top 50 at all from Dusty at 23 (an old record too plus climbing too!) and the Simon and Garfunkel EP at 24 (NME 20). Diana Ross 26 MM and 43 BMRB, 30 NME.

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Having seen the 22 Feb issue of MM, for the paper to produce it's own editorial on the front page implies that somebody or some organisation had attacked the paper and it's charts. As with many of these slanging matches. The paper's lawyers must have told them not to reply directly to the allegations or quote the source, but to quote some "bullshit" about how good the paper was. We have seen this many times in the papers and TV about some firm, or individual who has been caught out in an expose, so you can take the article with a pinch of salt.
    It might have been a TV expose or a newspaper, but without going through the national press archives it's going to be hard to track the cause of the defence down.
    I suppose it could be something to do with when the first "sales" based chart came out showing so serious flaws of the Melody Maker records from the BMRB chart. But it could be something completely unconnected.
    Might be worth posting the top 30 of the new BMRB chart and Melody Makers 30 chart to see if something odd can be seen that someone might pick up.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    My concern on the proposed 1968+ figures would be the ratios. Up to 1969 I am happy about the ratios if sceptical about the actual numbers. (I have no doubt AS reported honestly, but think there was a bit of 'rounding up' in what he was told.) If you are starting with 60 for BMRB and 250/200 MM/NME that seems to be too disadvantageous a ratio for BMRB, particularly as they monitored actual sales. As a general rule I think if there is doubt about the ratios the fairest policy is parity.

    Anyway that is my little contribution and I will be interested to see what other think.
    After I posted it did actually occur to me that while I was at that moment focussed on MM and NME that then using 60 for BMRB would be disproportionate practically rendering it ineffective. Although I do stick with the 200/250 for NME and MM for 69 and then reduce in 70.

    Here is an interesting article published on the front page of the MM on the week BMRB launched in Feb 69.

    ''And Derek Jewell, jazz and pop critic of the Sunday Times, said on BBC-TV last month that the MM's pop chart was "absolutely honest" and that the MM Pop 50 had been reduced to 30 because the bottom 20 placings were in danger of being manipulated by unscrupulous people. • In fact. the MM '• Pop 30 is the most respected pop chart in the country - used weekly by leading newspapers like the Daily Mirror (the highest circulating daily paper), the Daily Telegraph, the People. the News of the World and the Scottish Sunday Mail. and Daily Record as well as many leading provincial daily papers. • The chart is compiled in conditions of secrecy under strict supervision by the MM 's expert staff. It is accurate, impartial, honest.''

    That bold statement launched alongside the BMRB chart doesn't sound to me to be a chart imminently about to reduce it's sample size.

    Robin offered his thoughts on figures for BMRB, and in fairness his figure of the reported 20 to 25 percent of diary returns for the first months are well documented and accepted hence why I went with those as my starting point.

    Give me your thoughts Splodj on credible figures to use to use for BMRB in the first couple of years, to add to Robin's, and indeed I too would still welcome anyone else's views on this. I really do want a credible baseline figure to work with to really make the Feb 69 project viable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    The BMRB chart didn't come cheap. Just read in a 1969 edition of MM that the BBC's contribution to the chart back then was 5000 a year.
    Which MM edition was that?

    By 1976 the full cost of the charts was 56,000 a year! Met by the BBC, Music Week and the BPI.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    My concern on the proposed 1968+ figures would be the ratios. Up to 1969 I am happy about the ratios if sceptical about the actual numbers. (I have no doubt AS reported honestly, but think there was a bit of 'rounding up' in what he was told.) If you are starting with 60 for BMRB and 250/200 MM/NME that seems to be too disadvantageous a ratio for BMRB, particularly as they monitored actual sales. As a general rule I think if there is doubt about the ratios the fairest policy is parity.

    Also, knowing more about the weaknesses of a particular chart does not necessarily mean they are worse than the others who are more secretive. I've often thought this when I have been criticising the composite BBC chart; just because their mistakes are more visible does not mean that NME etc weren't making just as many mistakes.

    Anyway that is my little contribution and I will be interested to see what other think.

    Leave a comment:


  • membranemusic
    replied
    Robin,. my recollection is that Record Retailer was available from1968 from just one paper shop that happened to be in Old Compton Street in Soho, London W1. I worked around the corner at that time, so making a weekly beeline was no problem, and I could pick up all the other music papers a day early, unlike the rest of chart-humanity. But as Graham remarks, the clue is when RR started to print a cover price.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

    Brian, the BMRB numbers look reasonable. However I don't think MM and NME would have dropped to 100 that quickly / Feb 69. From what we know from Alan and Dave and maybe other sources, MM and NME did drop, the question is when. Alan says later, Dave says in 1969, but Dave doesn't say WHEN in 1969, it could have been Dec 31. I just wouldn't think MM and NME would have dropped the very month that BMRB arrived on the scene. They would have keep on chooglin' till some time later.

    BMRB was not immediately accepted by everyone in the 'industry', especially with all the early goofs and ties and low diary turn-ins. Many still went with the superior MM and NME charts, thus no reason for them to reduce until sometime after they lost influence. I need to re-read Alan's and Dave's postings.

    Plus maybe there's info in MM and NME themselves. The now WorldRadioHistory website has every issue of MM from 1969, and some from 1970/71, and all of NME from 1969. Maybe there are articles that point to when a drop occurred...
    I've had a good look last night and this morning through all the issues of NME and MM for 1969 and 1970 on the World Radio History site but don't see any reference to a reduction in store poll size for those years.
    It looks like it was never mentioned when it happened.

    All we know is it was still reportedly 200/250 respectively in February 1969 and most likely the stated 100 by March 1971. I believe the 200/250 would have held through 1969. I say this because MM never mentioned a reduction in store sample taking please and still promoted their chart through 1969 in their paper as the most accurate, and continuing to list the number of daily newspapers still carrying their chart. I don't believe they would have done this if they had cut back at this time. I believe NME would also likely have continued as they were for 1969 in line with this.

    So, I believe a reduction in stages could be applied throughout 1970 to reach the 100 each by March 1971. I think this is both the most practical and fairest way to approach this.

    Let it be written, Let it be done

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I think his best hit was, That's What Love Will Do, I'm charting that right now as I work on March 1963.

    Leave a comment:


  • Woz1234
    replied
    I Like Joe Brown got his Best Of Album a few years ago.
    Last edited by Woz1234; Sun March 21, 2021, 14:36.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    You'll have to wait and see

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I saw Joe Brown say (half jokingly) that his only number one had been taken away from him. So it will be interesting to see if the Ultimate gives it back!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    And the party is almost over for Lonnie. He has been a chart stalwart and a huge influence on other artists since he first charted in 1956. He will have one more Top 20 hit later this year and then be swept away amidst so many other regulars we see here as Beatlemania and the other new British groups move in and take hold changing the British music scene for ever.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 26th 1962

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 26th 1962 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 8100
    2 2 Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers 2= 3 2 3 2 7700
    3 3 I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard 2= 2 3 2 3 7690
    4 4 Wonderful Land - The Shadows 6 6 4 5 6 7020
    5 5 Love Letters - Ketty Lester 5 4 5 8 4 6980
    8 6 As You Like It - Adam Faith 4 5 6 4 5 6960
    6 7 Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee 7 11 7 6 7 6210
    12 8 Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury 8 8 9 7 11 6060
    7 9 Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon 9 14 8 9 8 5680
    21 10 Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland 11 10 12 11 10 5400
    18 11 Come Outside - Mike Sarne 12 6 14 10 17 5340
    10 12 When My Little Girl is Smiling - Jimmy Justice 10 16 11 14 9 4910
    28 13 I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane 13 9 17 12 18 4640
    13 14 The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams 15 15 15 15 13 4380
    16 15 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 14 13 10 12 4320
    9 16 Hey Baby - Bruce Channel 16 23 13 13 14 4030
    14 17 Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro 18 17 19 16 23 3430
    15 18 The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan 19 22 18 19 19 3110
    11 19 Dream Baby - Roy Orbison 26 16 20 22 2870
    20 20 Lonely City - John Leyton 20 25 20 17 20 2720
    27 21 The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball 17 12 30 18 24 2490
    24 22 Everybody's Twistin' - Frank Sinatra 21 23 29 1740
    19 23 Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke 20 25 28 1630
    22 24 Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley 21 16 1550
    30 25 A Picture Of You - Joe Brown 17 29 27 1460
    17 26 Never Goodbye - Karl Denver 24 15 1250
    23 27 Young World - Ricky Nelson 22 26 1140
    26 28 When My Little Girl is Smiling - Craig Douglas 26 21 850
    29 29 Lover Please - The Vernons Girls 23 640
    NEW 30 How Can I Meet Her - The Everly Brothers 27 25 500
    B Unsquare Dance - Dave Brubeck 27 440
    25 King Of Clowns - Neil Sedaka 28 30 360
    B Besame Mucho - Jet Harris 28 240
    B Deep In The Heart Of Texas - Duane Eddy 28 240
    Swinging In The Rain - Norman Vaughan 28 240
    B Jezebel - Marty Wilde 28 240
    Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard 19

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    I have a Record Retailer for 4th October 1969 priced at 2s 6d (old money!) bought in a newsagent shop.
    It has the Top 20 for October 12th 1961.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The BMRB chart didn't come cheap. Just read in a 1969 edition of MM that the BBC's contribution to the chart back then was 5000 a year.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 19th 1962

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 19th 1962 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    9 1 Good Luck Charm - Elvis Presley 1 1 2 1 2 7960
    1 2 Nut Rocker - B. Bumble and The Stingers 2 3 1 2 1 7890
    11 3 I'm Looking Out The Window / Do You Want To Dance - Cliff Richard 3 2 4 3 4 7500
    2 4 Wonderful Land - The Shadows 4 5 3 4 3 7350
    6 5 Love Letters - Ketty Lester 6 4 5 8 6 6920
    3 6 Speak To Me Pretty - Brenda Lee 5 6 6 5 5 6830
    4 7 Hey Little Girl - Del Shannon 8 8 7 7 8 6370
    16 8 As You Like It - Adam Faith 7 7 10 6 7 6200
    5 9 Hey Baby - Bruce Channel 9 10 8 11 10 5840
    7 10 When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Jimmy Justice 10 9 10 13 9 5630
    8 11 Dream Baby - Roy Orbison 12 14 9 12 14 5240
    19 12 Last Night Was Made For Love - Billy Fury 11 12 14 9 15 4970
    10 13 The Wonderful World Of The Young - Danny Williams 13 13 13 14 12 4840
    20 14 Let's Talk About Love - Helen Shapiro 16 16 18 10 26 3830
    14 15 The Party's Over - Lonnie Donegan 19 20 15 18 17 3710
    15 16 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 15 18 12 13 3670
    13 17 Never Goodbye - Karl Denver 17 22 20 15 11 3330
    29 18 Come Outside - Mike Sarne 18 11 23 17 29 3240
    12 19 Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke 14 15 17 18 3210
    28 20 Lonely City - John Leyton 17 24 19 25 2670
    NEW 21 Ginny Come Lately - Brian Hyland 26 21 16 19 2610
    17 22 Can't Help Falling In Love / Rock-A-Hula Baby - Elvis Presley 20 16 16 2100
    23 23 Young World - Ricky Nelson 27 18 21 2050
    21 24 Everybody's Twistin' - Frank Sinatra 19 25 22 1890
    25 25 King Of Clowns - Neil Sedaka 21 28 23 1370
    18 26 When My Little Girl Is Smiling - Craig Douglas 22 20 1320
    NEW 27 The Green Leaves Of Summer - Kenny Ball 22 20 1270
    NEW 28 I Don't Know Why - Eden Kane 25 29 28 790
    NEW 29 Lover Please - The Vernons Girls 22 720
    24 30 Theme From 'Z Cars' - Johnny Keating 27 24 650
    22 Tell Me What He Said - Helen Shapiro 26 550
    B A Picture Of You - Joe Brown 28 240
    B How Can I Meet Her - The Everly Brothers 29 160
    26 Theme From 'Dr. Kildare' - Johnny Spence 30 30 140
    27 Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker 27 120
    Johnny Angel - Patti Lynn 30 80
    B Jezebel - Marty Wilde 30 80
    30 Theme From 'Maigret' - Joe Loss

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard M White
    replied
    Originally posted by Metalweb View Post

    Shouldn't that read "changed to Sat -Fri in 1975" ?

    I remember reading somewhere it was because the postal service stopped working Sundays!

    The week was changed from "Mon-Sat" to "Sat-Fri" and yes Tony gave that very explanation in the book

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post

    Brian, the BMRB numbers look reasonable. However I don't think MM and NME would have dropped to 100 that quickly / Feb 69. From what we know from Alan and Dave and maybe other sources, MM and NME did drop, the question is when. Alan says later, Dave says in 1969, but Dave doesn't say WHEN in 1969, it could have been Dec 31. I just wouldn't think MM and NME would have dropped the very month that BMRB arrived on the scene. They would have keep on chooglin' till some time later.

    BMRB was not immediately accepted by everyone in the 'industry', especially with all the early goofs and ties and low diary turn-ins. Many still went with the superior MM and NME charts, thus no reason for them to reduce until sometime after they lost influence. I need to re-read Alan's and Dave's postings.

    Plus maybe there's info in MM and NME themselves. The now WorldRadioHistory website has every issue of MM from 1969, and some from 1970/71, and all of NME from 1969. Maybe there are articles that point to when a drop occurred...
    I think that's a valid point. Of course MM and NME wouldn't immediately drop at the beginning of the BMRB chart run when I think about it. I suppose it's reasonable to think they would carefully watch for a bit to see what it would deliver, how it would be accepted, if indeed the project would fall apart and be abandoned even.
    Like you say MM and NME still had a large readership following their charts so no it would not immediately affect them.

    So it is a case of when like you say. At some point in 1969 as Dave said, or early seventies like Alan said.
    It may well have been a proportionate reduction too between '69 and early seventies.

    I don't think there is any info out there (unless one of you whizz kids out there know better and let me know) on when and how they actually reduced. I too will look over the World Radio History site too for any possible clues.

    Worst case scenario I think, failing that we can't pin down dates any further is to apply a gradual reduction strategy to them both (the opposite of what I did for BMRB) and over the 2 year period gradually reduce from 250/200 to 100 apiece.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Based on this here is what I am inclined to do once I get around to working on Feb'69 in around a month (I'm on February '63 right now).

    Store Returns to be used 15th February 1969 to 20th March 1971 (end of postal strike)

    BMRB 60 - Feb 69 to July 69
    BMRB 90 - Aug 69 to Jan 70
    BMRB 120 - Feb 70 to July 70
    BMRB 150 - Aug 70 to Jan 71
    BMRB 100 - Feb 71 to Mar 71 (BMRB reduced the chart to a Top 40 as reduced diaries returned due to postal strike)

    MM - 100 Feb 69 to Mar 71

    NME - 100 Feb 69 TO Mar 71

    Do those figures look a good bet for working with ?
    Brian, the BMRB numbers look reasonable. However I don't think MM and NME would have dropped to 100 that quickly / Feb 69. From what we know from Alan and Dave and maybe other sources, MM and NME did drop, the question is when. Alan says later, Dave says in 1969, but Dave doesn't say WHEN in 1969, it could have been Dec 31. I just wouldn't think MM and NME would have dropped the very month that BMRB arrived on the scene. They would have keep on chooglin' till some time later.

    BMRB was not immediately accepted by everyone in the 'industry', especially with all the early goofs and ties and low diary turn-ins. Many still went with the superior MM and NME charts, thus no reason for them to reduce until sometime after they lost influence. I need to re-read Alan's and Dave's postings.

    Plus maybe there's info in MM and NME themselves. The now WorldRadioHistory website has every issue of MM from 1969, and some from 1970/71, and all of NME from 1969. Maybe there are articles that point to when a drop occurred...

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    Originally posted by Richard M White View Post
    According to Tony Jasper's The 70s: A Book of Records, the chart week changed from Sat-Fri in 1975 (doesn't say when) and reverted back to Mon-Sat "from the end of September 1978" - the chart week then changed again for 2 months in Jan & Feb 1982 from Friday - Thursday resulting in numerous yo yo performances, in the same way Graham explains above
    Shouldn't that read "changed to Sat -Fri in 1975" ?

    I remember reading somewhere it was because the postal service stopped working Sundays!


    Leave a comment:


  • Richard M White
    replied
    I couldn't agree more!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah Richard, the rules were often changed along the way and the goal posts moved. Unfortunately 'Official' doesn't always mean accurate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard M White
    replied
    According to Tony Jasper's The 70s: A Book of Records, the chart week changed from Sat-Fri in 1975 (doesn't say when) and reverted back to Mon-Sat "from the end of September 1978" - the chart week then changed again for 2 months in Jan & Feb 1982 from Friday - Thursday resulting in numerous yo yo performances, in the same way Graham explains above

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Neither Smiths or Boots were part of the shops used in 1971. They still were not on board in 1976 when Record Mirror ran an article. Woolies joined at the start of 1975. The stores were not taking part because they didn't want to give sales information to competing firms.
    As somebody pointed out to me the other week on this forum, BMRB changed the sales week in 1976, so it ran from Friday to Thursday. This resulted in some records getting higher slots in their chart, so instead of a record being at 25, which for example could be the furthest it goes. It lands at 20 in the adjusted chart. As it takes in the "quarter" sales of the following week. But in the following week it's in decline and the quarter sales help keep it in the top 40, but lower than 25. The main effect of this week change was on Top of The Pops. So after TOTP performance a record goes into decline, then in the next chart it goes up! For example Tina Charles was on Top of The Pops on Thursday, but on the chart after the show she fell out of the top 50. Then the following week she returns to the chart. Another effect is to shift the number one change, making BMRB chart slower at changing the top seller, by one week. Then it seems that BMRB introduced a policy on records that were declining in sales, removing them before they would have dropped out of the top 50.
    In many ways I think this makes the 1976 BMRB chart one of the worst charts. I don't know how long they kept the altered week.

    Leave a comment:

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