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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 24th 1962

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 24th 1962 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 Rock-A-Hula Baby / Can't Help Falling In Love - Elvis Presley 1 3 1 1 1 1 9740
    1 2 The Young Ones - Cliff Richard 2 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    3 3 Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker 3 1 3 3 3 3 9400
    4 4 Forget Me Not - Eden Kane 4 4 4 4 4 4 8910
    5 5 Walk On By - Leroy Van Dyke 5 6 5 5 6 5 8450
    13 6 Wimoweh - Karl Denver 7 5 6 7 8 8 8060
    7 7 Crying In The Rain - The Everly Brothers 6 8 8 6 5 7 7990
    9 8 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 11 12 9 9 12 12 6780
    11 9 A Little Bitty Tear - Burl Ives 8 10 12 12 7 9 6770
    10 10 Run To Him - Bobby Vee 9 11 15 8 13 6 6740
    23 11 March Of The Siamese Children - Kenny Ball 13 7 7 13 15 15 6620
    8 12 I'd Never Find Another You - Billy Fury 12 14 10 10 10 10 6610
    6 13 Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen - Neil Sedaka 10 13 11 11 9 13 6480
    21 14 Tell Me What He Said - Helen Shapiro 14 16 16 14 11 22 5240
    12 15 Multiplication - Bobby Darin 15 15 20 15 14 11 5150
    14 16 Jeannie - Danny Williams 18 21 18 16 20 14 4290
    17 17 Don't Stop Twist - Frankie Vaughan 17 24 19 17 18 24 3680
    15 18 Lonesome - Adam Faith 16 22 18 16 17 3320
    19 19 Peppermint Twist - Joey Dee and The Starliters 20 20 2090
    NEW 20 The Wanderer - Dion 19 17 17 1960
    NEW 21 A Hole In The Ground - Bernard Cribbins 26 13 1480
    25 22 Softly As I Leave You - Matt Monro 18 19 1400
    NEW 23 Never Goodbye - Karl Denver 19 1320
    NEW 24 Lesson One - Russ Conway 30 14 1100
    16 25 The Comancheros - Lonnie Donegan 23 16 1090
    24 26 A Little Bitty Tear - Miki and Griff 20 17 20 1030
    29 27 I'll See You In My Dreams - Pat Boone 19 960
    27 28 Lessons In Love - The Allisons 19 600
    18 29 Let There Be Drums - Sandy Nelson 27 25 500
    NEW 30 Ring-A-Ding Girl - Ronnie Carroll 25 480
    Can't Help Falling In Love - Elvis Presley 9
    The Twist - Chubby Checker 18 390
    Tonight - Shirley Bassey 29 26 310
    Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball 21 300
    Twisting The Night Away - Sam Cooke 28 240
    Pianissimo - Ken Dodd 23 240
    Son This Is She - John Leyton 27 120
    Moon River - Danny Williams 28 90
    Norman - Carol Deene 29 60
    The Lion Sleeps Tonight - The Tokens 30 30

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 17th 1962


    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 17th 1962 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 The Young Ones - Cliff Richard 1 1 1 1 2 1 9850
    2 2 Rock-A-Hula Baby / Can't Help Falling In Love - Elvis Presley 2 3 2 2 1 2 9540
    3 3 Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker 3 2 3 3 3 4 9290
    4 4 Forget Me Not - Eden Kane 4 4 4 4 4 3 8940
    5 5 Walk On By - Leroy Van Dyke 5 5 5 5 5 5 8580
    6 6 Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen - Neil Sedaka 7 8 6 7 8 8 7820
    10 7 Crying In The Rain - The Everly Brothers 6 6 8 9 6 9 7710
    8 8 I'd Never Find Another You - Billy Fury 8 9 7 8 7 10 7560
    7 9 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 10 11 9 6 11 7 7390
    11 10 Run To Him - Bobby Vee 11 10 10 10 10 6 7050
    12 11 A Little Bitty Tear - Burl Ives 9 7 13 12 9 13 6730
    9 12 Multiplication - Bobby Darin 12 13 11 11 13 11 6340
    17 13 Wimoweh - Karl Denver 13= 14 12 13 16 12 5800
    15 14 Jeannie - Danny Williams 13= 17 15 14 12 15 5380
    13 15 Lonesome - Adam Faith 15 15 16 15 17 14 5150
    19 16 The Comancheros - Lonnie Donegan 16 16 20 17 15 17 4620
    18 17 Don't Stop Twist - Frankie Vaughan 19 19 14 18 22 3680
    14 18 Let There Be Drums - Sandy Nelson 20 22 17 16 18 3600
    21 19 Peppermint Twist - Joey Dee and The Starliters 17 12 19 20 3450
    16 20 The Twist - Chubby Checker 21 18 16 2030
    NEW 21 Tell Me What He Said - Helen Shapiro 18 24 14 1410
    20 22 Moon River - Danny Williams 30 19 1400
    NEW 23 March Of The Siamese Children - Kenny Ball 23 20 29 1250
    27 24 A Little Bitty Tear - Miki and Griff 18 19 1010
    30 25 Softly As I Leave You - Matt Monro 20 30 910
    22 26 Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball 27 20 650
    NEW 27 Lessons In Love - The Allisons 19 600
    29 28 It's A Raggy Waltz - Dave Brubeck 25 480
    NEW 29 I'll See You In My Dreams - Pat Boone 26 400
    23 30 The Lion Sleeps Tonight - The Tokens 21 300
    Can't Help Falling In Love - Elvis Presley 18
    Tonight - Shirley Bassey 28 240
    Johnny Will - Pat Boone 23 240
    Norman - Carol Deene 24 210
    Pianissimo - Ken Dodd 25 180
    The Wanderer - Dion 29 160
    The Language Of Love - John D. Loudermilk 26 150
    Son This Is She - John Leyton 27 120
    You're The Only Good Thing - Jim Reeves 28 90

    Leave a comment:


  • Gambo
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    I agree with that Brian, I also think that was the total for the year. 1969 was a very poor year for record sales in total.
    Yes and on further reflection that surely has to be the case and apologies because I misread the source I was quoting (as ever I was supposed to be working while I was idling on UKMix instead so rather rushed my post!) - the total sales figure was estimated as 530k. No pre-order indications, but I'd still stake a fair claim that it had a pretty strong chance of charting highly across all charts corresponding to the week of 19 Apr '69, if not at No 1, had it come out on 11 Apr. In any case Brian05 has apparently cleared up the issue - there was a last-minute "re-mixing delay" which pushed its distribution into W/C 14 Apr. But the point stands - and Graham in his inimitable style has endorsed it above - that we can only be so trusting of official release dates given by record companies, and reflected in printed and digital sources, both contemporaneously and decades down the line.

    I do recall the KP Salted Peanuts debacle yes! Though unfortunately one needs only to look at last week's chart to see a more recent example of how such outlandishness can and does still occur, and that the OCC is still susceptible to embarrassing errors if not only the IT but their internal staff let them down (see thread re the 'comeback' JLS single!!).

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    On Alan Smith's thread of Beatles chart positions, Love Me Do enters the BBC Top 30 on 17th November at 29. So by then they must have started calculating the 21-30 positions for internal use.
    The BBC added the 21 - 30 positions from 6th October 1962 the same week that Disc started publishing a Top 30 also.
    MM had commenced a Top 30 on April 14th and then moved to a Top 50 from 15th September.

    Love Me Do is back in the 'breakers' again on 10th April by charting on MM and Disc so poised to enter the Ultimate Top 30 on the 17th like you say.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    On Alan Smith's thread of Beatles chart positions, Love Me Do enters the BBC Top 30 on 17th November at 29. So by then they must have started calculating the 21-30 positions for internal use.

    If Epstein did hype it, his main victim was RR!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thus far, Love Me Do has just missed out on the Top 30 on The Ultimate Chart on 27th October

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    It has just occured to me that using the implied Juke Box Jury' definition Love Me Do was s miss!

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    Yes, the idea of what constitutes a proper hit does see to have changed since those days...

    I remember an early 70s interview with The Sweet in (I think...) Melody Maker in which (for some reason or other) they contrasted their chart success with Cliff's and claimed "every other record Cliff releases is a miss, but he's still a household name..."

    Cliff's chart positions had been declining so it was inevitable that sooner or later a release would fail to reach the Top 50.

    In retrospect he was fortunate his next release was the Eurovision entry 'Power To All Our Friends' that put him right back in the spotlight...

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    True, it was a mistake for me to assume it was 51.

    As a general point though, Cliff's discography does show how nebulous is the concept of a 'hit'. On :Juke Box Jury' I had the impression you became a hit only if you made the BBC Top 20.
    Last edited by Splodj; Fri March 12, 2021, 13:41.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    ^

    The breakers list for 9 December '72 (with Cliff's 'Brand New Song' at the top) isn't in alphabetical order (either by artists or by song title!) so it's presumably safe to assume it's in sales order.

    Still, we can't say Cliff was at No.51 as singles declining in sales weren't in the list.

    All that can be said for sure is that 51 is the maximum position BNS could have had in an extended chart!

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Graham's radio programme was on 12th November 1995.

    McCartney had been worried about how Get Back would sound on AM radio so a remix was always on the cards. It is similar to A Whiter Shade Of Pale where there was concern that the cymbals might drown out the song on the radio - so an acetate was sent to Radio London well in advance of the release date giving plenty of time for a remix if needed.

    ​​​​​​​Going back to Cliff's remarkable run of 57 hits, I can remember his first single not to chart in late 1972. A crestfallen Cliff was interviewed saying how disappointed and surprised he was. But it made it to the top of the Breakers, so presumably was number 51.
    Thanks for that, I could never remember when it was broadcast.
    You have to be careful with assuming breakers list positions as being chart positions outside the top 50. Since the breakers list was often put in alphabetical order. And since they didn't include records going down or records that didn't have sales increases that had not made the charts. Cliff could have been a lot lower than 51.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Mentioning Cliff, it wouldn't've happened later when releases were co-ordinated better for results, but it's surprising just how many of his early hits were released around the same time as Elvis's releases and Cliff lost out and peaked at #2 behind Elvis therefore losing out on an even better tally of #1 singles.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Graham's radio programme was on 12th November 1995.

    McCartney had been worried about how Get Back would sound on AM radio so a remix was always on the cards. It is similar to A Whiter Shade Of Pale where there was concern that the cymbals might drown out the song on the radio - so an acetate was sent to Radio London well in advance of the release date giving plenty of time for a remix if needed.

    ​​​​​​​Going back to Cliff's remarkable run of 57 hits, I can remember his first single not to chart in late 1972. A crestfallen Cliff was interviewed saying how disappointed and surprised he was. But it made it to the top of the Breakers, so presumably was number 51.
    Last edited by Splodj; Fri March 12, 2021, 11:42.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Richard M White View Post

    There's no way anyone from OCC would have appeared on Radio 1 back then, the company wasn't formed until 1990 under its original name of Chart Information Network and didn't adopt the Official Chart name until 1998..
    To be quite honest I don't really care what the chart makers call themselves, I would call CIN as the "Complete, Idiots, Numbskulls", the BBC the Bake Bean Company. I have also used the term (on here) "Offal" to describe the "O" of the OCC. And the broadcast was in the 1990's, since it would have been hard to get "Bar Code Readings" of anything before then!
    And Record Mirror carried the "Official Chart" well before it was adopted in 1998. Gallup used the term "Official" also.

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard M White
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
    Gambo I find with most companies what they intended to do is not what happens in practice. In this cases a release date is the "intention" and the "practice" is that it gets sent out before, maybe not to all places, but to some. This could be down to the pressing plant errors, communication problems, or just somebody being stupid along the long chain of organisations involved in sending records out to the shops. The bigger the organisation the chances of screwing things increase no end. The Official Chart people, being no different. However they probably have agreements with the record industry, to stick by certain rules. So if record sales crop up before the record company has confirmed any date, they would remove such sales from the charts. I think that most people on this site are aware that on a show after the chart show on Radio One, one Sunday years ago. There was a spokesperson from the OCC talking about the problems involved with doing a chart in such a short turnover time. And they highlighted that due to a barcode error, packets of KP Salted Peanuts were racing up the record charts, and nearly made the countdown till somebody noticed that it wasn't a record!
    There's no way anyone from OCC would have appeared on Radio 1 back then, the company wasn't formed until 1990 under its original name of Chart Information Network and didn't adopt the Official Chart name until 1998..

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 10th 1962

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 10th 1962 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 The Young Ones - Cliff Richard 1 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    4 2 Rock-A-Hula Baby / Can't Help Falling In Love - Elvis Presley 2 2 2 3 2 4 9400
    2 3 Let's Twist Again - Chubby Checker 3 3 3 2 3 2 9380
    6 4 Forget Me Not - Eden Kane 4 4 4 4 4 3 8940
    9 5 Walk On By - Leroy Van Dyke 5 5 6 6 6 5 8360
    3 6 Happy Birthday Sweet Sixteen - Neil Sedaka 6 6 7 7 7 6 8030
    5 7 Stranger On The Shore - Mr. Acker Bilk 8 9 5 5 10 8 7920
    8 8 I'd Never Find Another You - Billy Fury 7 8 9 8 5 7 7710
    7 9 Multiplication - Bobby Darin 9 7 8 9 9 10 7450
    11 10 Crying In The Rain - The Everly Brothers 10 10 10 10 8 9 7060
    12 11 Run To Him - Bobby Vee 11 11 11 12 11 11 6490
    26 12 A Little Bitty Tear - Burl Ives 12 11 13 11 14 19 6090
    17 13 Lonesome - Adam Faith 13 14 12 13 17 12 5750
    10 14 Let There Be Drums - Sandy Nelson 14 18 16 15 13 13 5140
    23 15 Jeannie - Danny Williams 16 16 14 18 15 16 4900
    13 16 The Twist - Chubby Checker 18 17 16 19 17 3790
    20 17 Wimoweh - Karl Denver 17 23 14 16 20 3590
    28 18 Don't Stop - Twist - Frankie Vaughan 20 20 20 19 26 3010
    15 19 The Comancheros - Lonnie Donegan 15 15 12 14 2740
    19 20 Moon River - Danny Williams 30 18 17 28 2490
    21 21 Peppermint Twist - Joey Dee and The Starliters 19 11 17 2440
    18 22 Midnight In Moscow - Kenny Ball 22 15 18 2070
    14 23 The Lion Sleeps Tonight - The Tokens 21 18 22 1720
    27 24 D-Darling - Anthony Newley 24 20 25 1290
    NEW 25 Norman - Carol Deene 20 1210
    24 26 Johnny Will - Pat Boone 19 15 1200
    29 27 A Little Bitty Tear - Miki and Griff 25 21 780
    16 28 The Language Of Love - John D. Loudermilk 27 23 560
    NEW 29 It's A Raggy Waltz - Dave Brubeck 26 400
    NEW 30 Softly As I Leave You - Matt Monro 28 240
    Can't Help Falling In Love - Elvis Presley 19
    Lessons In Love - The Allisons 28 240
    Son This Is She - John Leyton 24 210
    You're The Only Good Thing - Jim Reeves 27 120
    There Goes That Song Again - Gary Miller 29 60
    So Long Baby - Del Shannon 30 30

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    I disagree that pre-orders were 530,000. Several sources say that was the total sale by the end of 1969.
    I agree with that Brian, I also think that was the total for the year. 1969 was a very poor year for record sales in total.

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    Here is a clip from NME for 12th April 1969. A late re-mixing delay.



    There was an Apple advert in all the music papers on 19th April. In the review of the disc Record Mirror said it was "out this week". I disagree that pre-orders were 530,000. Several sources say that was the total sale by the end of 1969.

    I was told by my record store that the MMT EP was held up due to the weather. I suspect it was also due to printing problems with the 32 page booklet included with the double EP.

    Perhaps you meant that there were delays in getting all its pre-orders out to all outlets by Fri 8 and that its initial entry positions on the 16 Dec charts were lower than otherwise should've been the case.
    Yes, I agree.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Gambo View Post
    ^ We do have to be careful of release dates it is true. Often surviving records will be derived from label sources which tend to be the intended date, but while mostly that will've matched up to the actual day of release to stores in practice, occasionally there are examples of delay, sometimes for reasons which seem ridiculous by today's standards but will have been sufficiently significant 60 years ago to have interfered with issuance of discs.

    The example I came across many years ago which always sticks in my head is the date given for the release of The Beatles' 'Get Back' as Fri 11 Apr '69, yet it didn't appear in the by-then 'official' BMRB Top 50 at No 1 until the chart in use W/E Sat 26 Apr, based on sales from Mon 14 to Sat 19. With reported pre-orders of around 530,000, there's no way the single could've landed anywhere but the top even in its first couple of days in shops.
    Given that advance order figure 530,000 it was strange that the single did not enter either NME or MM at #1 also, given that both still had robust charts around that time also, and still considered by many more accurate than BMRB at that time due to BMRB's difficulty in receiving sufficient completed diaries back in time.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    Maybe RCA saw the huge advance orders for Cliff and decided to postpone the Elvis record for 2 weeks to avoid a clash for number one.
    If there were illness at Decca were any other records affected?
    Import sales is a possibility. Was RM or RR charts top 50 at this time? Surely Elvis import would have made the top 50?
    Brian RM never progressed beyond a Top 20, but RR was a Top 50, supported by just 30 shops.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Looks like the BBC thought a 4-way tie would look too silly and used the 'trend' method to separate them into 2 x 2-way ties.

    I believe the BBC are about (10th March) to make Kenny Ball joint number one with Elvis simply because they did not properly compensate for the NME separation effect. They would do the same with Cliff on 26th January 1963 - elevating 'Dance On'. As we've discussed before, they should have applied the same rule to double A sides that they did to EPs (as the Ultimate does).
    As Robbie and Splodj mention the BBC genuinely didn't put a lot of thought into refining their chart as has been proved time and time again with the many errors, miscalculations and omissions. It appears to me it was just totalled up and taken immediately at face value. It was definitely a 'fun' chart rather than a chart to be taken seriously.

    On March 10th Kenny Ball will top the BBC chart but Elvis will top the Ultimate because the split will be justifiably factored in like you suggest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    EMI gave the BBC an advance copy of Get Back and when McCartney heard it on Radio 1 he didn't like how it sounded, so a new mix was made on 7th April. Apparently this is why they couldn't get them out in time for the 11th April release date, although it was still played in the new release unit of POTP on the 13th.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Gambo I find with most companies what they intended to do is not what happens in practice. In this cases a release date is the "intention" and the "practice" is that it gets sent out before, maybe not to all places, but to some. This could be down to the pressing plant errors, communication problems, or just somebody being stupid along the long chain of organisations involved in sending records out to the shops. The bigger the organisation the chances of screwing things increase no end. The Official Chart people, being no different. However they probably have agreements with the record industry, to stick by certain rules. So if record sales crop up before the record company has confirmed any date, they would remove such sales from the charts. I think that most people on this site are aware that on a show after the chart show on Radio One, one Sunday years ago. There was a spokesperson from the OCC talking about the problems involved with doing a chart in such a short turnover time. And they highlighted that due to a barcode error, packets of KP Salted Peanuts were racing up the record charts, and nearly made the countdown till somebody noticed that it wasn't a record!

    Leave a comment:


  • Gambo
    replied
    ^ We do have to be careful of release dates it is true. Often surviving records will be derived from label sources which tend to be the intended date, but while mostly that will've matched up to the actual day of release to stores in practice, occasionally there are examples of delay, sometimes for reasons which seem ridiculous by today's standards but will have been sufficiently significant 60 years ago to have interfered with issuance of discs.

    The example I came across many years ago which always sticks in my head is the date given for the release of The Beatles' 'Get Back' as Fri 11 Apr '69, yet it didn't appear in the by-then 'official' BMRB Top 50 at No 1 until the chart in use W/E Sat 26 Apr, based on sales from Mon 14 to Sat 19. With reported pre-orders of around 530,000, there's no way the single could've landed anywhere but the top even in its first couple of days in shops, which indicates clearly the disc didn't arrive en-masse on Fri 11 as planned as it would've charted at 1 for W/E Sat 19 Apr. I seem to recall someone telling me that it likely didn't appear until possibly Tue 15, which would be probable and explain why it didn't make the previous week's rankings, although I forget now what the reason was (if indeed it was known).

    Brian05 mentions a delay with their 'Magical Mystery Tour' EP, though as far as I can see records show its official release date as Fri 8 Dec '67 and it duly appeared on all available charts for W/E Sat 16 Dec, based on sales Mon 4 to Sat 9 and so this would've been based on its first two days on official issue in shops; no obvious delay. Perhaps you meant that there were delays in getting all its pre-orders out to all outlets by Fri 8 and that its initial entry positions on the 16 Dec charts were lower than otherwise should've been the case.

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    Maybe RCA saw the huge advance orders for Cliff and decided to postpone the Elvis record for 2 weeks to avoid a clash for number one.
    If there were illness at Decca were any other records affected?
    Import sales is a possibility. Was RM or RR charts top 50 at this time? Surely Elvis import would have made the top 50?

    Leave a comment:

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