The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Splodj]

One thing this thread shows is that not all number ones are equal. There are the rock solid undisputed ones ... and then there are the others!

[Splodj]

Another maverick RR position - Billy Fury at 2.

On 7-Jan-62 POTP became a stand alone show again and entered into its 'golden age' under Freeman. (Although Jacobs did turn up again like a bad penny later in the year.) From the chart they played the new entries and the Top 10. There was no BBC discretion about it, the 'pick' had already been done in the chart compilation.

[MrTibbs]

The Highwaymen win the battle with Michael capturing #1 this week.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 7th 1961

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 7th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
5	1	Michael - The Highwaymen					1	1	1	2	1	3	9730
2	2	Kon-Tiki - The Shadows					2	6	4	1	2	1	9270
3	3	Wild In The Country / I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley					4=	2	2	4	7	6	8980
1	4	Johnny Remember Me - John Leyton					3	5	5	3	3	4	8930
6	5	Jealousy - Billy Fury					4=	4	6	5	4	2	8740
14	6	Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro					6	2	3	7	5	12	8510
11	7	You'll Answer To Me - Cleo Laine					8	7	7	10	9	7	7490
8	8	Get Lost - Eden Kane					7	8	12	8	6	10	7390
4	9	You Don't Know - Helen Shapiro					9	11	10	6	12	11	7160
9	10	Hats Off To Larry - Del Shannon					10	9	13	12	11	9	6590
10	11	Together - Connie Francis					11	15	11	11	8	8	6520
7	12	Reach For The Stars / Climb Ev'ry Mountain - Shirley Bassey					13	14	14	9	13	5	6480
NEW	13	Wild Wind - John Leyton					12	13	8	13	10	25	6030
22	14	Sucu Sucu - Laurie Johnson					14	10	9	14	14	26	5870
16	15	Granada - Frank Sinatra					15	11	15	16	16	17	5380
12	16	Michael Row The Boat / Lumbered - Lonnie Donegan					16	16	17	15	15	13	5140
25	17	Muskrat - The Everly Brothers					17	18	16	18	17	29	4130
NEW	18	Hard Hearted Hannah / Chilli Bom-Bom - The Temperance Seven					18	19	19	17			3220
15	19	Ain't Gonna Was For A Week - The Brook Brothers					19	24		20	18	16	2870
19	20	Sea Of Heartbreak - Don Gibson						22	20		20	14	2440
20	21	Well I Ask You - Eden Kane						23		19		19	2320
17	22	That's My Home - Mr. Acker Bilk						20			19	15	1960
NEW	23	Bless You - Tony Orlando					20	17	18				1900
13	24	Cupid - Sam Cooke						21				18	1190
27	25	Wheels Cha Cha - Joe Loss						26				21	700
30	26	Amor - Ben E. King						25					480
21	27	How Many Tears - Bobby Vee										20	330
26	28	I'm Gonna Knock On Your Door - Eddie Hodges						27					320
18	29	Half Way To Paradise - Billy Fury										22	270
28	30	Breakaway - The Springfields						28					240
		Quarter To Three - The U.S. Bonds										23	240
		Who Put The Bomp - The Viscounts										24	210
		Say It With Flowers - Dorothy Squires and Russ Conway						30				27	200
		Tribute To Buddy Holly - Mike Berry						29					160
		Cryin' - Roy Orbison										28	90
		Marcheta - Karl Denver										30	30

[Graham76man]

Every record at the BBC had to be approved. Many had labels attached saying things like not to be played. Or not for daytime etc. That's why the BBC called it "Pick" they could select a record from the chart. Although records were on a formula bases and new records could be played due to them not adding to the time allowed to discs, the pick system did get rid of a chart record that might have NOT met the BBC criteria

[Graham76man]

"The Definitive Chart Of The Fifties And Sixties" is pretentious to say the least. Not at least the ones done at the time! Some might object to that if the people that did them were around.
And if you knew who I have been, you would know that sarcasm could have been my middle name. But there's more heaven than meets the eye my dear Mr Tibbs.

[Splodj]

Strange to say that anyway because that particular point had sunk in!!

[MrTibbs]

As you constantly quote the Sun article, I will too

I keep saying this, but it doesn't seem to sink in.

G, do you always have to be so nippy in some of your responses. I've noticed it in response to some of my posts and I've noticed Splodj seems to get the same from you, like above response.

We are all here to enjoy, debate, and add our collective knowledge for the benefit of others and to enjoy this and other threads. I respect your knowledge base and some of the valid points you make and enjoy your input but the benefit of this is spoilt by the tone of your comments at times. It would be much more enjoyable if you just left the sarcastic bits out.

[Splodj]

I agree that the 'advanced order' info did not go straight to the compliers from the shops, if that is what you are saying. It came via the record companies, being the number of records the shops wanted to be supplied with.

That is why I reckon the only way 'including advance orders' could operate was as a number one override, because you cannot add record units to points to determine a lesser position. It was a case of advance orders being so large that it was 'bound' to be number one, so lets ensure we are ahead of the game by putting it straight there.

[Graham76man]

Yes I imagine if you had sales of over 200,000 that would put you safely at number one. So it looks like the shops had over-estimated initial demand, or perhaps the advance order figure itself had been spun upwards by Columbia for PR purposes.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Shadows were coming close to Leyton in sales, so find the RM deviation more understandable than the RR one last week.

Melody Maker 110 shops each only needed to sell about 1,818 to clear the 200,000 figure.
As you constantly quote the Sun article, I will too and mention the 8,000 shops it says for the total shops in the UK. If you divide the order number by that figure, each shop needs sell 25 copies. That would hardly make a dent in any survey of using lesser numbers.
By the way Helen only went in a number nine that same week and didn't top the chart, while next week.

I keep saying this, but it doesn't seem to sink in. The papers got a list of say 10 records or more from the shops. Unless someone at the NME asked each shop "did you actually sell these records that week?" There's no way that they could have told if a shop had put in what somebody had ordered or what was sold that week. And as the release date seems to be confirmed as being that week of every record thought to have advanced orders, there's no-way of telling it either.

[Graham76man]

Since the Real Chart is based on ALL shops and actual sales, not a point based system based on what some shop says is the top ten seller. Or a combination of these charts made up by the BBC or anyone else. Plus it says it was number one for several weeks - then you are completely wrong. Don't forget that none of these charts include any of the Embassy label records some of which according to the same papers you use to make up these charts outsold the original artists. So NEVER tell me that a record can not be number one, unless you have an entire list of the records sold of the records that week. So the charts published at the time do not reflect the entire country. We know from the Record Mirror survey that it's retailers only touched some parts of the UK and many were London area shops. None of these charts you use are based on the size of a store or turnover. And you have only one chart that uses more than 100 stores. It wouldn't take much more shops to put any of the top ten records at the top.

[Splodj]

I too believe that NME only used advance orders when The Beatles came on board and not before.

I think there is a strong case for them doing it with Little Red Rooster. It was NMEs surprise entry of this at number one that prompted The Sun to do their survey which concluded it "impossible" to have achieved this on sales. This may also have been the origin of the idea that NME used advanced orders, although The Sun did not explicitly draw that conclusion.

[Splodj]

Yes I imagine if you had sales of over 200,000 that would put you safely at number one. So it looks like the shops had over-estimated initial demand, or perhaps the advance order figure itself had been spun upwards by Columbia for PR purposes.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Shadows were coming close to Leyton in sales, so find the RM deviation more understandable than the RR one last week.

[MrTibbs]

It's RM who is out of step this week placing The Shadows at #1 with what is another excellent single from them.
Elvis' run of number one singles comes to end as he is denied this time around.
Helen Shapiro has the week's highest new entry at #14 so advance sales obviously not counted as her highest placing on any chart is #13.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 30th 1961

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 30th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Johnny Remember Me - John Leyton					1	1	2	1	1	1	9840
4	2	Kon-Tiki - The Shadows					2	3	1	2	2	4	9490
2	3	Wild In The Country / I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley					3=	2	3	4	6	5	9000
3	4	You Don't Know - Helen Shapiro					5	6	5	3	4	3	8830
6	5	Michael - The Highwaymen					3=	4	4	5	3	7	8760
7	6	Jealousy - Billy Fury					6	5	6	6	5	6	8380
5	7	Reach For The Stars / Climb Ev'ry Mountain - Shirley Bassey					7	7	8	7	8	2	7960
9	8	Get Lost - Eden Kane					8	8	7	8	7	12	7580
14	9	Hats Off To Larry - Del Shannon					9	9	9	12	9	13	6810
12	10	Together - Connie Francis					11=	11	10	10	11	10	6800
19	11	You'll Answer To Me - Cleo Laine					11=	9	11	11	12	8	6800
8	12	Michael Row The Boat / Lumbered - Lonnie Donegan					10	12	12	9	10	11	6730
10	13	Cupid - Sam Cooke					14	14	14	16	13	9	5590
NEW	14	Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro					13	13	13	13	14	26	5500
13	15	Ain't Gonna Wash For A Week - The Brook Brothers					15	19	18	14	15	17	4830
NEW	16	Granada - Frank Sinatra					16	15	16	18	17		4310
15	17	That's My Home - Mr. Acker Bilk					17	18	19	19	16	16	4280
16	18	Halfway To Paradise - Billy Fury						24	17	17		14	3450
21	19	Sea Of Heartbreak - Don Gibson					18	16	15		19	20	3090
11	20	Well I Ask You - Eden Kane					19	29		15		15	2400
18	21	How Many Tears - Bobby Vee						21			18	18	1840
NEW	22	Sucu Sucu - Laurie Johnson					20	17			20		1670
17	23	Romeo - Petula Clark								20		21	1510
20	24	Quarter To Three - The U.S. Bonds						23				19	1000
NEW	25	Muskrat - The Everly Brothers						20					880
25	26	I'm Gonna Knock On Your Door - Eddie Hodges						30	20				740
27	27	Wheels Cha Cha - Joe Loss						26				22	670
24	28	Breakaway - The Springfields						24					560
22	29	Say It With Flowers - Dorothy Squires and Russ Conway						28				23	480
NEW	30	Amor - Ben E. King						27					320
		I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley						22
		Heart And Soul - Jan and Dean										24	210
		Who Put The Bomp - The Viscounts										25	180
		Cryin' - Roy Orbison										27	120
		Marcheta - Karl Denver										28	90
		You Always Hurt The One You Love - Clarence 'Frogman' Henry										29	60
		Drivin' Home - Duane Eddy										30	30

[MrTibbs]

If you think that's bad all the other charts have the wrong number one too! For the week ending 16, 23 and 30 it was Sam Cooke - Cupid top!

There was not even a remote chance Sam Cook was #1. Maybe in someone's personal chart but not factually.

[Splodj]

As shown here,

Then in Disc's 13-Jan-62 lead story, a British artist does even better than Elvis!

[Splodj]

G - The POTP chart playlist was driven by formula and entirely predictable. They did not exclude any record until 1969.

It was because of needletime restrictions that they had so many New Releases, as they were exempt.

[braindeadpj]

While RR does have them in the wrong order, it does agree on the top 20. In fact the Top 20 of all the charts are found in the Top 21 of the Ultimate chart which I think is a first! There have been a few instances where the Top 22 Ultimate encompassed all the Top 20s, but this is the first time its the top 21 (and that the top 20 RR has agreed with the Top 20)!

[brian05]

This week Disc reported that 'Walking Back To Happiness' had in excess of 200,000 advance orders. As it did not enter the NME chart at number one, I take this as a further indication that NME did not use advance orders - at least at this time.

As shown here,

[Graham76man]

Having a playlist meant the BBC didn't have to play the risky records and the none chart format avoided the USA top 40 style which the BBC hated.

[Graham76man]

There is something very wrong more than usual at RR this week. They place Shirley Bassey at #1 while the disc is at #5 in ALL other four charts. 300 stores against 30. There is more than lagging behind in days of sale at work here. It is just out and out incorrect and it is considered an 'official' #1

If you think that's bad all the other charts have the wrong number one too! For the week ending 16, 23 and 30 it was Sam Cook - Cupid top!

But Cupid was always the bad guy shooting a black arrow (so they reject you) at the person that you like and gold one at you for you to fall in love with them!

[Splodj]

The playlist from Alan Freeman’s first POTP ...

NEW RELEASES
Granada – Frank Sinatra
Walkin’ Back to Happiness – Helen Shapiro
Hard Hearted Hannah - The Temperance Seven
Wild Wind – John Leyton
Sabre Dance – King Brothers
Without You – Johnny Tillotson
Valley of the Sioux - The Outlaws
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ghost Train - Bert Weedon
Gonna Build a Mountain - Matt Monro
Who Put the Bomp - Viscounts
Frankie and Johnnie – Brook Benton
Lonely Street – Clarence Frogman Henry
Big Cold Wind - Pat Boone
School Is Out - Gary U.S. Bonds
One More Time - Sammy Davis Junior

SELECTION FROM THE TOP 20
8 (17) Get Lost – Eden Kane
11 (15) Together– Connie Francis
7 (18) Jealousy – Billy Fury
4 (4) Kon Tiki – Shadows
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 (-) You’ll Answer to Me – Cleo Laine
6 (13) Michael Row the Boat – Highwaymen
3 (2) You Don’t Know – Helen Shapiro
2 (3) Wild In the Country – Elvis Presley
1 (1) Johnny Remember Me – John Leyton

[MrTibbs]

This week Disc reported that 'Walking Back To Happiness' had in excess of 200,000 advance orders. As it did not enter the NME chart at number one, I take this as a further indication that NME did not use advance orders - at least at this time.

I notice that Disc also specified that their charts were for the week ending the previous Saturday. I presume the Wednesday date on the NME charts represents the publication date as it doesn't say 'week ending'.

I too believe that NME only used advance orders when The Beatles came on board and not before. Yeah the Wednesday date in NME was the publication date.

[Splodj]

This week Disc reported that 'Walking Back To Happiness' had in excess of 200,000 advance orders. As it did not enter the NME chart at number one, I take this as a further indication that NME did not use advance orders - at least at this time.

I notice that Disc also specified that their charts were for the week ending the previous Saturday. I presume the Wednesday date on the NME charts represents the publication date as it doesn't say 'week ending'.