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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Splodj
    replied
    One thing this thread shows is that not all number ones are equal. There are the rock solid undisputed ones ... and then there are the others!

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Another maverick RR position - Billy Fury at 2.

    On 7-Jan-62 POTP became a stand alone show again and entered into its 'golden age' under Freeman. (Although Jacobs did turn up again like a bad penny later in the year.) From the chart they played the new entries and the Top 10. There was no BBC discretion about it, the 'pick' had already been done in the chart compilation.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Highwaymen win the battle with Michael capturing #1 this week.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending October 7th 1961
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 7th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    5 1 Michael - The Highwaymen 1 1 1 2 1 3 9730
    2 2 Kon-Tiki - The Shadows 2 6 4 1 2 1 9270
    3 3 Wild In The Country / I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley 4= 2 2 4 7 6 8980
    1 4 Johnny Remember Me - John Leyton 3 5 5 3 3 4 8930
    6 5 Jealousy - Billy Fury 4= 4 6 5 4 2 8740
    14 6 Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro 6 2 3 7 5 12 8510
    11 7 You'll Answer To Me - Cleo Laine 8 7 7 10 9 7 7490
    8 8 Get Lost - Eden Kane 7 8 12 8 6 10 7390
    4 9 You Don't Know - Helen Shapiro 9 11 10 6 12 11 7160
    9 10 Hats Off To Larry - Del Shannon 10 9 13 12 11 9 6590
    10 11 Together - Connie Francis 11 15 11 11 8 8 6520
    7 12 Reach For The Stars / Climb Ev'ry Mountain - Shirley Bassey 13 14 14 9 13 5 6480
    NEW 13 Wild Wind - John Leyton 12 13 8 13 10 25 6030
    22 14 Sucu Sucu - Laurie Johnson 14 10 9 14 14 26 5870
    16 15 Granada - Frank Sinatra 15 11 15 16 16 17 5380
    12 16 Michael Row The Boat / Lumbered - Lonnie Donegan 16 16 17 15 15 13 5140
    25 17 Muskrat - The Everly Brothers 17 18 16 18 17 29 4130
    NEW 18 Hard Hearted Hannah / Chilli Bom-Bom - The Temperance Seven 18 19 19 17 3220
    15 19 Ain't Gonna Was For A Week - The Brook Brothers 19 24 20 18 16 2870
    19 20 Sea Of Heartbreak - Don Gibson 22 20 20 14 2440
    20 21 Well I Ask You - Eden Kane 23 19 19 2320
    17 22 That's My Home - Mr. Acker Bilk 20 19 15 1960
    NEW 23 Bless You - Tony Orlando 20 17 18 1900
    13 24 Cupid - Sam Cooke 21 18 1190
    27 25 Wheels Cha Cha - Joe Loss 26 21 700
    30 26 Amor - Ben E. King 25 480
    21 27 How Many Tears - Bobby Vee 20 330
    26 28 I'm Gonna Knock On Your Door - Eddie Hodges 27 320
    18 29 Half Way To Paradise - Billy Fury 22 270
    28 30 Breakaway - The Springfields 28 240
    Quarter To Three - The U.S. Bonds 23 240
    Who Put The Bomp - The Viscounts 24 210
    Say It With Flowers - Dorothy Squires and Russ Conway 30 27 200
    Tribute To Buddy Holly - Mike Berry 29 160
    Cryin' - Roy Orbison 28 90
    Marcheta - Karl Denver 30 30

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  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Every record at the BBC had to be approved. Many had labels attached saying things like not to be played. Or not for daytime etc. That's why the BBC called it "Pick" they could select a record from the chart. Although records were on a formula bases and new records could be played due to them not adding to the time allowed to discs, the pick system did get rid of a chart record that might have NOT met the BBC criteria

  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    "The Definitive Chart Of The Fifties And Sixties" is pretentious to say the least. Not at least the ones done at the time! Some might object to that if the people that did them were around.
    And if you knew who I have been, you would know that sarcasm could have been my middle name. But there's more heaven than meets the eye my dear Mr Tibbs.

  • Splodj
    replied
    Strange to say that anyway because that particular point had sunk in!!
    Last edited by Splodj; Mon February 22, 2021, 15:11.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post

    As you constantly quote the Sun article, I will too

    I keep saying this, but it doesn't seem to sink in.
    G, do you always have to be so nippy in some of your responses. I've noticed it in response to some of my posts and I've noticed Splodj seems to get the same from you, like above response.

    We are all here to enjoy, debate, and add our collective knowledge for the benefit of others and to enjoy this and other threads. I respect your knowledge base and some of the valid points you make and enjoy your input but the benefit of this is spoilt by the tone of your comments at times. It would be much more enjoyable if you just left the sarcastic bits out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I agree that the 'advanced order' info did not go straight to the compliers from the shops, if that is what you are saying. It came via the record companies, being the number of records the shops wanted to be supplied with.

    That is why I reckon the only way 'including advance orders' could operate was as a number one override, because you cannot add record units to points to determine a lesser position. It was a case of advance orders being so large that it was 'bound' to be number one, so lets ensure we are ahead of the game by putting it straight there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Yes I imagine if you had sales of over 200,000 that would put you safely at number one. So it looks like the shops had over-estimated initial demand, or perhaps the advance order figure itself had been spun upwards by Columbia for PR purposes.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the Shadows were coming close to Leyton in sales, so find the RM deviation more understandable than the RR one last week.
    Melody Maker 110 shops each only needed to sell about 1,818 to clear the 200,000 figure.
    As you constantly quote the Sun article, I will too and mention the 8,000 shops it says for the total shops in the UK. If you divide the order number by that figure, each shop needs sell 25 copies. That would hardly make a dent in any survey of using lesser numbers.
    By the way Helen only went in a number nine that same week and didn't top the chart, while next week.

    I keep saying this, but it doesn't seem to sink in. The papers got a list of say 10 records or more from the shops. Unless someone at the NME asked each shop "did you actually sell these records that week?" There's no way that they could have told if a shop had put in what somebody had ordered or what was sold that week. And as the release date seems to be confirmed as being that week of every record thought to have advanced orders, there's no-way of telling it either.

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  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Since the Real Chart is based on ALL shops and actual sales, not a point based system based on what some shop says is the top ten seller. Or a combination of these charts made up by the BBC or anyone else. Plus it says it was number one for several weeks - then you are completely wrong. Don't forget that none of these charts include any of the Embassy label records some of which according to the same papers you use to make up these charts outsold the original artists. So NEVER tell me that a record can not be number one, unless you have an entire list of the records sold of the records that week. So the charts published at the time do not reflect the entire country. We know from the Record Mirror survey that it's retailers only touched some parts of the UK and many were London area shops. None of these charts you use are based on the size of a store or turnover. And you have only one chart that uses more than 100 stores. It wouldn't take much more shops to put any of the top ten records at the top.

  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I too believe that NME only used advance orders when The Beatles came on board and not before.
    I think there is a strong case for them doing it with Little Red Rooster. It was NMEs surprise entry of this at number one that prompted The Sun to do their survey which concluded it "impossible" to have achieved this on sales. This may also have been the origin of the idea that NME used advanced orders, although The Sun did not explicitly draw that conclusion.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Yes I imagine if you had sales of over 200,000 that would put you safely at number one. So it looks like the shops had over-estimated initial demand, or perhaps the advance order figure itself had been spun upwards by Columbia for PR purposes.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the Shadows were coming close to Leyton in sales, so find the RM deviation more understandable than the RR one last week.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    It's RM who is out of step this week placing The Shadows at #1 with what is another excellent single from them.
    Elvis' run of number one singles comes to end as he is denied this time around.
    Helen Shapiro has the week's highest new entry at #14 so advance sales obviously not counted as her highest placing on any chart is #13.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 30th 1961


    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 30th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Johnny Remember Me - John Leyton 1 1 2 1 1 1 9840
    4 2 Kon-Tiki - The Shadows 2 3 1 2 2 4 9490
    2 3 Wild In The Country / I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley 3= 2 3 4 6 5 9000
    3 4 You Don't Know - Helen Shapiro 5 6 5 3 4 3 8830
    6 5 Michael - The Highwaymen 3= 4 4 5 3 7 8760
    7 6 Jealousy - Billy Fury 6 5 6 6 5 6 8380
    5 7 Reach For The Stars / Climb Ev'ry Mountain - Shirley Bassey 7 7 8 7 8 2 7960
    9 8 Get Lost - Eden Kane 8 8 7 8 7 12 7580
    14 9 Hats Off To Larry - Del Shannon 9 9 9 12 9 13 6810
    12 10 Together - Connie Francis 11= 11 10 10 11 10 6800
    19 11 You'll Answer To Me - Cleo Laine 11= 9 11 11 12 8 6800
    8 12 Michael Row The Boat / Lumbered - Lonnie Donegan 10 12 12 9 10 11 6730
    10 13 Cupid - Sam Cooke 14 14 14 16 13 9 5590
    NEW 14 Walkin' Back To Happiness - Helen Shapiro 13 13 13 13 14 26 5500
    13 15 Ain't Gonna Wash For A Week - The Brook Brothers 15 19 18 14 15 17 4830
    NEW 16 Granada - Frank Sinatra 16 15 16 18 17 4310
    15 17 That's My Home - Mr. Acker Bilk 17 18 19 19 16 16 4280
    16 18 Halfway To Paradise - Billy Fury 24 17 17 14 3450
    21 19 Sea Of Heartbreak - Don Gibson 18 16 15 19 20 3090
    11 20 Well I Ask You - Eden Kane 19 29 15 15 2400
    18 21 How Many Tears - Bobby Vee 21 18 18 1840
    NEW 22 Sucu Sucu - Laurie Johnson 20 17 20 1670
    17 23 Romeo - Petula Clark 20 21 1510
    20 24 Quarter To Three - The U.S. Bonds 23 19 1000
    NEW 25 Muskrat - The Everly Brothers 20 880
    25 26 I'm Gonna Knock On Your Door - Eddie Hodges 30 20 740
    27 27 Wheels Cha Cha - Joe Loss 26 22 670
    24 28 Breakaway - The Springfields 24 560
    22 29 Say It With Flowers - Dorothy Squires and Russ Conway 28 23 480
    NEW 30 Amor - Ben E. King 27 320
    I Feel So Bad - Elvis Presley 22
    Heart And Soul - Jan and Dean 24 210
    Who Put The Bomp - The Viscounts 25 180
    Cryin' - Roy Orbison 27 120
    Marcheta - Karl Denver 28 90
    You Always Hurt The One You Love - Clarence 'Frogman' Henry 29 60
    Drivin' Home - Duane Eddy 30 30

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post

    If you think that's bad all the other charts have the wrong number one too! For the week ending 16, 23 and 30 it was Sam Cooke - Cupid top!
    There was not even a remote chance Sam Cook was #1. Maybe in someone's personal chart but not factually.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    As shown here,
    Then in Disc's 13-Jan-62 lead story, a British artist does even better than Elvis!

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  • Splodj
    replied
    G - The POTP chart playlist was driven by formula and entirely predictable. They did not exclude any record until 1969.

    It was because of needletime restrictions that they had so many New Releases, as they were exempt.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    While RR does have them in the wrong order, it does agree on the top 20. In fact the Top 20 of all the charts are found in the Top 21 of the Ultimate chart which I think is a first! There have been a few instances where the Top 22 Ultimate encompassed all the Top 20s, but this is the first time its the top 21 (and that the top 20 RR has agreed with the Top 20)!
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Sun February 21, 2021, 19:42.

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  • brian05
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    This week Disc reported that 'Walking Back To Happiness' had in excess of 200,000 advance orders. As it did not enter the NME chart at number one, I take this as a further indication that NME did not use advance orders - at least at this time.
    As shown here,



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  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Having a playlist meant the BBC didn't have to play the risky records and the none chart format avoided the USA top 40 style which the BBC hated.

  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    There is something very wrong more than usual at RR this week. They place Shirley Bassey at #1 while the disc is at #5 in ALL other four charts. 300 stores against 30. There is more than lagging behind in days of sale at work here. It is just out and out incorrect and it is considered an 'official' #1
    If you think that's bad all the other charts have the wrong number one too! For the week ending 16, 23 and 30 it was Sam Cook - Cupid top!

    But Cupid was always the bad guy shooting a black arrow (so they reject you) at the person that you like and gold one at you for you to fall in love with them!

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    The playlist from Alan Freeman’s first POTP ...

    NEW RELEASES
    Granada – Frank Sinatra
    Walkin’ Back to Happiness – Helen Shapiro
    Hard Hearted Hannah - The Temperance Seven
    Wild Wind – John Leyton
    Sabre Dance – King Brothers
    Without You – Johnny Tillotson
    Valley of the Sioux - The Outlaws
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ghost Train - Bert Weedon
    Gonna Build a Mountain - Matt Monro
    Who Put the Bomp - Viscounts
    Frankie and Johnnie – Brook Benton
    Lonely Street – Clarence Frogman Henry
    Big Cold Wind - Pat Boone
    School Is Out - Gary U.S. Bonds
    One More Time - Sammy Davis Junior


    SELECTION FROM THE TOP 20
    8 (17) Get Lost – Eden Kane
    11 (15) Together– Connie Francis
    7 (18) Jealousy – Billy Fury
    4 (4) Kon Tiki – Shadows
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    18 (-) You’ll Answer to Me – Cleo Laine
    6 (13) Michael Row the Boat – Highwaymen
    3 (2) You Don’t Know – Helen Shapiro
    2 (3) Wild In the Country – Elvis Presley
    1 (1) Johnny Remember Me – John Leyton

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    This week Disc reported that 'Walking Back To Happiness' had in excess of 200,000 advance orders. As it did not enter the NME chart at number one, I take this as a further indication that NME did not use advance orders - at least at this time.

    I notice that Disc also specified that their charts were for the week ending the previous Saturday. I presume the Wednesday date on the NME charts represents the publication date as it doesn't say 'week ending'.
    I too believe that NME only used advance orders when The Beatles came on board and not before. Yeah the Wednesday date in NME was the publication date.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    This week Disc reported that 'Walking Back To Happiness' had in excess of 200,000 advance orders. As it did not enter the NME chart at number one, I take this as a further indication that NME did not use advance orders - at least at this time.

    I notice that Disc also specified that their charts were for the week ending the previous Saturday. I presume the Wednesday date on the NME charts represents the publication date as it doesn't say 'week ending'.

    Leave a comment:

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