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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Wow you are right Robbie I forget about them. Maybe wishful thinking

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  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Eden Kane poised to make number one. Are he and Peter Sarstedt the only two brothers separately to make number one? Had his record climbed a bit more Robin could have made it three!

    I realise there are brothers in groups that have done it, like Mike McGear.
    Donny and Jimmy Osmond each had a number 1 solo single (Donny had 3).

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  • kjell
    replied
    Yeah Brian, I completely agree with you and Alan regarding MM.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah as solo artists I believe those to be the only pair to achieve that

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Eden Kane poised to make number one. Are he and Peter Sarstedt the only two brothers separately to make number one? Had his record climbed a bit more Robin could have made it three!

    I realise there are brothers in groups that have done it, like Mike McGear.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah i used the amended correct chart and not the one with the Ricky omission.

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  • setg1
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Disc made an error this week and omitted Ricky Nelson who should have been #6. This was corrected the following week. The omission however affected the BBC chart who compiled their chart based on Ricky's omitted Disc so this affects those BBC chart positions from #6 and below.
    A very strange error – they even had a huge "OUT Nelson" above the chart (you'd think they would have noticed something weird about a single supposedly dropping out from #7).

    The original chart mentioned Roy Orbison's "Runnin' Scared" at #20 – giving it 500 points from Disc (as it's essentially #21 for that week – a position that wouldn't usually have been published) would make it #15 in the combined chart.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending July 29th 1961

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending July 29th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Temptation - The Everly Brothers 2 2 1 1 2 1 9770
    3 2 Well I Ask You - Eden Kane 1 1 2 2 1 2 9700
    8 3 You Don't Know - Helen Shapiro 3 3 7 4 3 4 8860
    2 4 Runaway - Del Shannon 4 4 4 3 8 3 8850
    5 5 Hello Mary Lou / Travellin' Man - Ricky Nelson* 11 7 3 5 6 6 8460
    4 6 A Girl Like You - Cliff Richard 5 5 6 6 5 5 8410
    6 7 Halfway To Paradise - Billy Fury 6 8 5 7 4 7 8110
    7 8 Pasadena - The Temperance Seven 7 9 8 8 7 8 7560
    14 9 Romeo - Petula Clark 9 10 10 9 9 10 7090
    11 10 You Always Hurt The One You Love - Clarence 'Frogman' Henry 8 6 9 11 10 14 7080
    NEW 11 Don't You Know It - Adam Faith 10 11 12 10 12 20 6330
    10 12 Time - Craig Douglas 12 14 11 12 11 9 6310
    12 13 But I Do - Clarence 'Frogman' Henry 13 13 16 15 13 13 5540
    16 14 Baby I Don't Care / Valley Of Tears - Buddy Holly 14 18 13 13 14 15 5430
    9 15 Surrender - Elvis Presley 18 18 14 16 17 16 4860
    15 16 Weekend - Eddie Cochrane 16 17 15 17 15 17 4840
    13 17 Running Scared - Roy Orbison 15 12 17 14 11 4830
    RE 18 Marcheta - Karl Denver 19 16 20 18 26 3210
    22 19 Old Smokie / High Voltage - Johnny and The Hurricanes 27 19 19 24 2570
    21 20 Breakin' In A Brand New Broken Heart - Connie Francis 22 18 19 2510
    20 21 Moody River - Pat Boone 17 14 16 18 2500
    24 22 Quarter To Three - The U.S. Bonds 20 18 29 1720
    17 23 The Frightened City - The Shadows 26 20 12 1520
    25 24 That's My Home - Mr. Acker Bilk 23 20 25 1480
    23 25 Dum Dum - Brenda Lee 20 25 19 28 1170
    NEW 26 Climb Ev'ry Mountain / Reach For The Stars - Shirley Bassey 21 800
    RE 27 More Than I Can Say - Bobby Vee 20 660
    26 28 Quite A Party - The Fireballs 24 560
    18 29 Pop Goes The Weasel - Anthony Newley 27 23 560
    27 30 You'll Never Know - Shirley Bassey 21 300
    * Disc made an error this week and omitted Ricky Nelson who should have been #6. This was corrected the following week. The omission however affected the BBC chart who compiled their chart based on Ricky's omitted Disc so this affects those BBC chart positions from #6 and below.
    Ring Of Fire - Duane Eddy 22 270
    Nature Boy - Bobby Darin 29 160
    I've Told Every Little Star - Linda Scott 27 120
    The Boll Weevil Song - Brook Benton 30 30 110

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yip I don't give points for under #30

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    Example: on the 31 Aug 1968 chart, "Eleanor Rigby" by Ray Charles appeared at #42 on RR. The BBC gave him 31 points for RR, the net result being Ray got into the BBC Top 30 that week, and "Laurel and Hardy" by The Equals at #35 on RR got bumped out.
    But The Equals got bumped out of the Ultimate too - for the same reason. The BBC awarding 31 points to Ray Charles is exactly the same as the inverse method awarding him zero points.

    BBC Inverse

    31 = 0
    32 = -1
    33 = -2
    34 = -3
    35 = -4
    etc.


    If you want to give The Equals the exact RR score you should give it 35 points under the BBC method or minus 4 points under the inverse method.

    If you want to give Ray Charles the exact RR score you should give it 42 points under the BBC method or minus 11 points under the inverse method.

    Last edited by Splodj; Sat February 13, 2021, 00:09.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I concur entirely with that logic. Adding 'best possible' scores may seem like a good idea initially but not all records outside the chart could realistically hold #31 so yes as Robin says it altered the factual basis of the chart rendering it inaccurate in part.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post

    Yes they awarded 31 points. But this is no worse than the inverse method awarding 0 points.

    Suppose the actual Disc position for that record was 35. This means that it should have been awarded 35 points (BBC method) or minus 4 points (inverse method).
    Yes, should have been awarded 35 points, but the BBC stuck with 31. Sadly that choice affected several records and their chart positions.

    Example: on the 31 Aug 1968 chart, "Eleanor Rigby" by Ray Charles appeared at #42 on RR. The BBC gave him 31 points for RR, the net result being Ray got into the BBC Top 30 that week, and "Laurel and Hardy" by The Equals at #35 on RR got bumped out.

    The BBC calcs: Ray was #25 on NME, not on MM (give him #31), #42 on RR (give him #31). Sum it up, Ray = 25 + 31 + 31 = 87 points. The Equals were #30 on NME, #30 on MM, #35 on RR (give them #31). Sum it up, The Equals = 30 + 30 + 31 = 91 points. Ray is lower, and gets #30 on the BBC, The Equals = no show.

    But if you assume the best Ray could do on MM was #31, and you sum up all actual chart positions, Ray = 25 + 31 + 42 = 98. The Equals = 30 + 30 + 35 = 95. The Equals are thus lower and should have appeared on the BBC at #30 but didn't.

    If you do the Brian Ultimate method with all actual positions, and assume Ray was at #31 on MM, then Ray places higher than The Equals. But if you assume Ray was at #32 or lower on MM, then The Equals place higher than Ray.

    Fascinating, interesting...

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    As I have said before it was very easy to hype the top 30 of any chart. Jeff Beck being the best example I know for certain. It was in the top 30 of several charts for at least two weeks (including after MM had taken action to stop hyping). The MM also changed the following year and became much slower than it had been with new hits. As I am currently posting the 1968 charts, I can confirm this is not down to them doing a more accurate chart compared to the others. Indeed often even RR is on the mark more with new hits in the top 30 than MM. But I came upon the Small Faces (lazy Sunday) and Love Affair's new hits in the NME top 30, landing at 82 and 83 on the 7 April (week ending 13 on the NME Charts). And behind the hyping of the Jeff Beck record was the manager of The Small Faces - Don Arden. So he was at it again with the Faces!
    After all would you given the choice put a record at 28 in your chart or get throne out of the window?

    You will get very near to what was selling that week by adding the various charts together like the BBC did. What you miss out on is that odd record. For example Sam and Dave - Thank You. 34 on the RR chart and 14 in the full chart. The rest of the 30 might be two or three slots out for the records in it, or spot on!

    Mind you by 1976 the Official Chart was just a mess! Records dropping out after climbing and getting a Top of The Pops appearing from being at 31, to returning two weeks after the sales effect from the show would have negligible!
    Even with computers the industry has never sorted out the problem and due to the dominance of Woolies in the 80's and later iTunes and then the change to streaming, the charts are still a mess.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I always trusted the MM chart more too in the sixties. I too agree that they should have continued to compile a Top 50. They should have weathered the hyping storm rather than run for cover and reduce the chart size. If they had continued with a Top 50 chances are MM would be considered the 'official' chart now and it would therefore have carried way more credibility.

    RR /Music Week had their own issues with hyping too in the seventies and they braved it out and didn't surrender the size of their chart.

    I think from mid sixties onwards NME were more album orientated and paid lip service to a singles chart. If they had been serious about their singles chart then perhaps they would have expanded it in size and got rid of split sides, ties, and albums in the singles chart.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    One of the reasons I trust MM more is that they were far more open about their charts and willing to discuss their reasons for doing things. It has been stated that NME only ever produced a Top 30 to prevent hyping, but unless NME themselves said this it is just an assumption.

    I still think MM should have persevered with a Top 50 and taken firmer measures to exclude hyped records. As they had been attacked on TV, I suppose they felt that more drastic action was needed to restore their credibility.

    The Sun still had a problem getting as many stores as they wanted to provide sales figures. This may have been because The Sun was contacting stores who were already supplying info to the chart companies, and they found the easiest way to answer The Sun's enquiries was simply to give them the same info - i.e. a simple list - rather than compile a different return just for them specifying actual sales figures.
    Last edited by Splodj; Fri February 12, 2021, 19:50.

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    I wonder why the NME stuck with just 30 positions during the 60's? They had enough shops on the book to get to the top 50 of the Record Retailer and Melody Maker. And with the smaller number of shops the RR had you would have thought they would have stuck with a top 30!
    It's ironic that the Sun Newspaper was the first to produce the only actual sales based chart (if only for a week) in the UK!

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah I wanted to go with exact numbers that were at least measurable rather than taking a guess outside the top twenty or top thirty.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    the BBC would award some points to this record for Disc as well as it was assumed it was just outside their Top 30
    Yes they awarded 31 points. But this is no worse than the inverse method awarding 0 points.

    Suppose the actual Disc position for that record was 35. This means that it should have been awarded 35 points (BBC method) or minus 4 points (inverse method).

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Corrected

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  • Woz1234
    replied
    On 22nd July in RR charts, Neil Sedaka should be #27 & Joe Loss should be #28

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Outwith that though, if I am remembering correctly, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, the BBC allocated points to records outside a chart, so for example in 1964 if a record was 29 in NME, 28 in RR, 27 in MM, but not on the DIsc Top 30 the BBC would award some points to this record for Disc as well as it was assumed it was just outside their Top 30 ?

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    The 21 is for calculating the inverse points on a top 20 chart basis and not a replacement position.
    The need to enter 21 proves that there is no difference between the two methods. Under the BBC method you need to enter 21 to make the score 21. Under the inverse method you need to enter 21 to make the score 0, having inserted '21-' before each number to make it inverse.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I've just caught the next column of the spreadsheet Robbie, doesn't change anything but I will delete it as unnecessary

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  • Robbie
    replied
    ^
    You've included an extra column MrTibbs (NME inverse points).

    I'd completely forgotten about 'Temptation' by The Everly Brothers. What a great song!

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending July 22nd 1961


    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending July 22nd 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Temptation - The Everly Brothers 1 2 1 2 1 1 9710
    2 2 Runaway - Del Shannon 2 3 4 1 3 2 9430
    5 3 Well I Ask You - Eden Kane 3 1 2 3 4 5 9350
    3 4 A Girl Like You - Cliff Richard 4 5 3 4 2 3 9020
    4 5 Hello Mary Lou / Travellin' Man - Ricky Nelson 5 4 5 5 7 4 8590
    6 6 Halfway To Paradise - Billy Fury 7 7 6 6 6 7 8140
    7 7 Pasadena - The Temperance Seven 6 6 7 7 5 6 8130
    11 8 You Don't Know - Helen Shapiro 8 8 8 8 8 9 7560
    8 9 Surrender - Elvis Presley 11 13 9 9 12 11 6730
    14 10 Time - Craig Douglas 12 15 11 10 10 13 6380
    21 11 You Always Hurt The One You Love - Clarence 'Frogman' Henry 9 9 10 13 9 22 6370
    9 12 But I Do - Clarence 'Frogman' Henry 10 10 19 11 11 8 6290
    10 13 Running Scared - Roy Orbison 13 11 12 12 17 10 6160
    20 14 Romeo - Petula Clark 14 12 13 16 14 19 5460
    15 15 Weekend - Eddie Cochran 15 16 18 17 13 15 4900
    18 16 Baby I Don't Care / Valley Of Tears - Buddy Holly 16 22 16 14 15 16 4740
    13 17 The Frightened City - The Shadows 17= 18 15 18 14 3960
    12 18 Pop Goes The Weasel - Anthony Newley 17= 14 15 16 17 3490
    16 19 Ring Of Fire - Duane Eddy 19 20 19 18 3330
    22 20 Moody River - Pat Boone 19 16 16 19 20 3030
    19 21 Breakin' In A Brand New Broken Heart - Connie Francis 20 26 18 20 12 2950
    23 22 Old Smokie / High Voltage - Johnny and The Hurricanes 25 14 20 2710
    NEW 23 Dum Dum - Brenda Lee 20 880
    NEW 24 Quarter To Three - The U.S. Bonds 20 880
    29 25 That's My Home - Mr. Acker Bilk 23 29 700
    NEW 26 Quite A Party - The Fireballs 24 560
    17 27 You'll Never Know - Shirley Bassey 27 23 560
    28 28 I've Told Every Little Star - Linda Scott 28 21 540
    27 29 Nature Boy - Bobby Darin 30 24 290
    26 30 Have A Drink On Me - Lonnie Donegan 25 180
    Don't You Know It - Adam Faith 29 160
    She She Little Sheila - Gene Vincent 26 150
    Little Devil - Neil Sedaka 27 120
    The Boll Weevil Song - Brook Benton 30 80
    Wheels Cha Cha - Joe Loss 28 90
    Marcheta - Karl Denver 30 30

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