The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Gotcha, my apologies for jumping the gun before thinking it through.

I forgot that at this time the BBC only considered the NME Top Twenty and not Top Thirty as I did for the UAC so they also awarded 21 points to the NME also.

[braindeadpj]

hmmm, I don't quite agree David. I entered the #21 position for all missing places on the above chart for 21st February and re-calculated it and a couple of positions did change at the bottom end of the Top 20 and also some between 21 and 30.

That is because the chart above is using the Top 30 for NME and not the Top 20. You'd have to assign 31 to everything outside the charts to be comparable with the UA

[MrTibbs]

hmmm, I don't quite agree David. I entered the #21 position for all missing places on the above chart for 21st February and re-calculated it and a couple of positions did change at the bottom end of the Top 20 and also some between 21 and 30.

[braindeadpj]

All I can say is that when I calculate an unweighted composite from a set of Top 30s, it doesn't make any difference whether I tally the points downwards (1-31) or upwards (0-30) - the result is exactly the same. Perhaps I am doing something wrong.

I am persuaded that the UAC is superior to the BBC chart in many ways in any case, so it doesn't really matter.

Applying 21 points for an unknown position (outside the top 20 on all the charts including the NME) when counting positions as the BBC did, has exactly the same effect as assigning no points for an out of the Top 20 chart position when using inverse points.

[Splodj]

All I can say is that when I calculate an unweighted composite from a set of Top 30s, it doesn't make any difference whether I tally the points downwards (1-31) or upwards (0-30) - the result is exactly the same. Perhaps I am doing something wrong.

I am persuaded that the UAC is superior to the BBC chart in many ways in any case, so it doesn't really matter.

[MrTibbs]

The UAC is superior at the moment because it takes into account NMEs 21-30. When the BBC changed to calculating 30 positions it then had a Top 20 which contained very few records with an assumed 31 points. Their 21-30 calculations created a buffer zone to minimise this. ... Sorry, I'm beginning to sound like the BBCs defence attorney!

Ha Ha the UAC Top 30 doesn't have ANY records with an assumed 31 points (or 21 points as the case may be) so it didn't need a 'buffer zone' as it was factual all the way from #1 to #30. Every point was accounted for.

[Splodj]

That is why I didn't even consider using this system for the UAC.

If anyone can produce a database tutorial showing that counting chart points up is any different than counting chart points down I would be fascinated to see it.

The UAC is superior at the moment because it takes into account NMEs 21-30. When the BBC changed to calculating 30 positions it then had a Top 20 which contained very few records with an assumed 31 points. Their 21-30 calculations created a buffer zone to minimise this. ... Sorry, I'm beginning to sound like the BBCs defence attorney!

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 21st 1959

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 21st 1959								NME	MM	DISC	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey					75	25	40	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
4	1	As I Love You - Shirley Bassey					1	1	1	1	2	5940
1	2	I Got Stung / One Night - Elvis Presley					2	2	2	2	1	5860
6	3	Does Your Chewing Gum Lose It's Flavour - Lonnie Donegan					3	4	5	3	3	5475
8	4	Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - The Platters					4	3	3	6	5	5360
2	5	To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears					5	6	4	4	4	5250
3	6	Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey					6	5	6	5	6	5115
5	7	Baby Face - Little Richard					7	7	8	9	7	4695
7	8	Problems - The Everly Brothers					8=	7	9	8	8	4650
10	9	A Pub With No Beer - Slim Dusty					8=	9	7	7	9	4530
13	10	(All Of A Sudden) My Heart Sings - Paul Anka					10=	12	14	12	10	3870
11	11	High School Confidential - Jerry Lee Lewis					10=	14	11	10	13	3695
9	12	The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan					13	10	12	15	15	3650
16	13	The Little Drummer Boy - The Beverly Sisters					12	15	10	11	14	3545
23	14	My Happiness - Connie Francis					14	16	16	16	11	3300
17	15	Petite Fleur - Chris Barber					15	11	13	20	16	3290
14	16	I'll Be With You In Apple Blossom Time - Rosemary June					16	17	17	14	16	2980
15	17	Wee Tom - Lord Rockingham's XI					18	19		19	12	2520
28	18	Gigi - Billy Eckstine					20	18	19		19	1995
12	19	It's OnLy Make Believe - Conway Twitty					19	21	18	13		1795
29	20	The Little Drummer Boy - The Harry Simeone Chorale					17	13	15			1750
18	21	Chantilly Lace - The Big Bopper						23			20	1260
NEW	22	Side Saddle - Russ Conway						23		17		1160
26	23	Stagger Lee - Lloyd Price						29			18	930
24	24	Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra						20				825
21	25	I'll Remember Tonight - Pat Boone						22				675
22	26	The World Outside - The Four Aces						29		18		670
19	27	Livin' Lovin' Doll - Cliff Richard						23				600
NEW	28	The Wonderful Secret Of Love - Robert Earl						28	20			500
25	29	Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan						26				375
RE	30	Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio						27				300
20		Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI
27		You Always Hurt The One You Love - Connie Francis
29		The World Outside - Ronnie Hilton

[MrTibbs]

There were extra rules applied to the bottom of their chart which are on the BBC file and quoted by RokinRobin on the 'POTP/TOTP number ones' thread here. They must have been aware of the weakness of applying 21 points to the gaps.

To be fair to the pore ol' Beeb, as soon as MM expanded to a Top 30 they started calculating 30 positions in order to make their Top 20 more robust. (This is often erroneously described as them enlarging to a BBC Top 30, but that didn't happen until the arrival of Radio 1 in 1967.)

This was another of my issues with the BBC chart multiple ties and multiple errors aside. The system of allocating every record not on a chart 21 points (or later 31 points) threw the spanner of inaccuracy into the works. Not every uncharted record could be #21 some would have been lower, some much lower. So in effect it produced a chart that veered away from being factually correct especially at the lower end. It actually made a mockery of the points system as they were actually awarding points for unknown chart positions.

That is why I didn't even consider using this system for the UAC.

[Splodj]

There were extra rules applied to the bottom of their chart which are on the BBC file and quoted by RokinRobin on the 'POTP/TOTP number ones' thread here. They must have been aware of the weakness of applying 21 points to the gaps.

To be fair to the pore ol' Beeb, as soon as MM expanded to a Top 30 they started calculating 30 positions in order to make their Top 20 more robust. (This is often erroneously described as them enlarging to a BBC Top 30, but that didn't happen until the arrival of Radio 1 in 1967.)

[MrTibbs]

More BBC errors for 14/2/59: 19 Beverly Sisters - Little Drummer Boy (77)
20= Tommy Dorsey - Tea For Two Cha Cha (78)
20= Pat Boone - I'll Remember Tonight (78)

Yeah you're right David the points totals doesn't justify their chart outcome yet again.

[braindeadpj]

More BBC errors for 14/2/59: 19 Beverly Sisters - Little Drummer Boy (77)
20= Tommy Dorsey - Tea For Two Cha Cha (78)
20= Pat Boone - I'll Remember Tonight (78)

[kingofskiffle]

He worked with a lot of artists in his TV show and added his name to make them sell a bit more and start off. I think he did that with Kenny Ball in 1962 but am
unsure….. I know he did something at that point like ‘lonnie donegan presents…’ but might have the artist wrong!

[MrTibbs]

It might come as a surprise to some people but later this year those popular crooners of the day Miki and Griff will have a minor hit with The Lonnie Donegan Skiffle Group. Apparently Lonnie's backing accompanied a few of their songs.

[Splodj]

McCartney must have been an early admirer as he went to a Donegan concert on 11th November 1956, according to The Beatles Bible.

(Alan Smith posted on that site earlier this year - so presumably is still around.)

[kingofskiffle]

Pub With No Beer is one my dad used to sing (he played the guitar and did perform in some clubs in the early 1970’s). I liked the song a lot

I think Lonnie was doing stuff that got people in and the act developed into that. When I saw him in about 1989 the act was the classic songs because that’s what people wanted. In the 1950’s you had that mix of music and odd acts. Look at for example Ken Dodd and those Victorian music hall type shows on bbc 4.

[Splodj]

'A Pub With No Beer' the first Australian record in the UK charts, I believe. (I like The Dubliners later cover.)

Although Lonnie's first novelty song his stage show always had a humorous streak running through it. Watching him on YouTube I get the impression he saw himself as an entertainer rather than just a singer.

[MrTibbs]

How weird, two months after Christmas and two versions of The Little Drummer boy chart in time for Valentine's Day.
Lonnie Donegan moves on to show his novelty side for the first time but it won't be his last.
Huge variations with Petite Fleur, 14 and 15 in two charts and 27 and nowhere on the other two.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 14th 1959

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 14th 1959								NME	MM	DISC	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey					75	25	40	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	I Got Stung / One Night - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	6000
2	2	To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears					2	4	2	4	2	5570
4	3	Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey					3=	3	5	2	4	5530
5	4	As I Love You - Shirley Bassey					3=	2	3	3	6	5495
3	5	Baby Face - Little Richard					5	5	4	7	3	5265
10	6	Does Your Chewing Gum Lose It's Flavour - Lonnie Donegan					6	6	7	5	5	5075
6	7	Problems - The Everly Brothers					7=	8	8	6	7	4740
7	8	Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - The Platters					7=	7	6	8	8	4725
8	9	The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan					9	9	11	13	9	4190
22	10	A Pub With No Beer - Slim Dusty					10	11	10	15	10	3925
11	11	High School Confidential - Jerry Lee Lewis					12	12	16	9	13	3760
9	12	It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty					11	13	9	11	15	3660
16	13	(All Of A Sudden) My Heart Sings - Paul Anka					14	10	13	16	14	3645
18	14	I'll Be With You In Apple Blossom Time - Rosemary June					13	14	12	14	12	3570
19	15	Wee Tom - Lord Rockingham's XI					15	16		12	11	3085
NEW	16	The Little Drummer Boy - The Beverly Sisters					20	16			19	1845
NEW	17	Petite Fleur - Chris Barber					16	27	14		15	1685
17	18	Chantilly Lace - The Big Bopper						26		20	20	1475
24	19	Livin' Lovin' Doll - Cliff Richard						20		17		1385
13	20	Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI					18	25	15	18		1370
26	21	I'll Remember Tonight - Pat Boone								19	17	1320
25	22	The World Outside - The Four Aces						18	20			1250
NEW	23	My Happiness - Connie Francis						19	18			1225
12	24	Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra					19	15				1200
15	25	Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan						22	17			1025
NEW	26	Stagger Lee - Lloyd Price						29			18	930
20	27	You Always Hurt The One You Love - Connie Francis					17			10		840
NEW	28	Gigi - Billy Eckstine						20				825
23	29	The World Outside - Ronnie Hilton						22				675
NEW	29	The Little Drummer Boy - The Harry Simeone Chorale						22				675
29		You're The Top Cha - Al Saxon							19			300
14		Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio						28				225
		The Wonderful Secret Of Love - Robert Earl						29				150
21		Love Makes The World Go 'Round / Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como
27		Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele
27		That's My Doll - Frankie Vaughan

[braindeadpj]

I wonder whether the BBC decided to split the titles because they were in the top 3 - not sure how though - I was going to say that they split it based on the fact that Little Richard is staying at 2 while The Teddy bears would be climbing to 2, but it would make more sense to be the other way round, so maybe its just that somebody couldn't count??

[Splodj]

Great info.

I suppose you know that Feb-59 was a special time for British records, because 3 of them were in the upper echelons of the Billboard chart simultaneously - inciuding that Chris Barber one you mention.

[MrTibbs]

When the NME chart book came out they said it included some corrections. Have these been identified?

I don't know if they were corrected in later volumes but in the first edition the following were omitted that I am immediately aware off.

1952 20th December Kay Starr Comes-A-Long-A-Love from #3
1959 28th February Petite Fleur Chris Barber from #8

But the first volume also corrected the following error made in the paper at the time.

1972 25th March Donnie Elbert I Can't Help Myself which in the book was slotted in as extra #10 with Floy Joy by The Supremes.

In 1974 19th January Diana Ross All Of My Life was omitted from the paper and was added in later as an extra #17 with Street Life by Roxy Music.

[kingofskiffle]

When the NME chart book came out they said it included some corrections. Have these been identified?

I am not aware of them all - I think it was some of the weeks when entries were omitted (Such as the week Russ Conway Got A Match charted at 30 and yet didn't....)

[Splodj]

There is a very peculiar claim across the web that 'Livin Lovin Doll' was released to pretend that he was fulfilling an obligation to release 'Livin Doll' - as if they wouldn't notice the difference!

------

When the NME chart book came out they said it included some corrections. Have these been identified?

[MrTibbs]

15 27 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard

NEW 28 Livin' Lovin' Doll - Cliff Richard

A much weaker follow-up to his previous hits. A long wait for his first number one?

I agree Brian but two absolute belters to follow this year.