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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Gotcha, my apologies for jumping the gun before thinking it through.

    I forgot that at this time the BBC only considered the NME Top Twenty and not Top Thirty as I did for the UAC so they also awarded 21 points to the NME also.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    hmmm, I don't quite agree David. I entered the #21 position for all missing places on the above chart for 21st February and re-calculated it and a couple of positions did change at the bottom end of the Top 20 and also some between 21 and 30.
    That is because the chart above is using the Top 30 for NME and not the Top 20. You'd have to assign 31 to everything outside the charts to be comparable with the UA
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Wed May 18, 2022, 16:34.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    hmmm, I don't quite agree David. I entered the #21 position for all missing places on the above chart for 21st February and re-calculated it and a couple of positions did change at the bottom end of the Top 20 and also some between 21 and 30.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    All I can say is that when I calculate an unweighted composite from a set of Top 30s, it doesn't make any difference whether I tally the points downwards (1-31) or upwards (0-30) - the result is exactly the same. Perhaps I am doing something wrong.

    I am persuaded that the UAC is superior to the BBC chart in many ways in any case, so it doesn't really matter.
    Applying 21 points for an unknown position (outside the top 20 on all the charts including the NME) when counting positions as the BBC did, has exactly the same effect as assigning no points for an out of the Top 20 chart position when using inverse points.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    All I can say is that when I calculate an unweighted composite from a set of Top 30s, it doesn't make any difference whether I tally the points downwards (1-31) or upwards (0-30) - the result is exactly the same. Perhaps I am doing something wrong.

    I am persuaded that the UAC is superior to the BBC chart in many ways in any case, so it doesn't really matter.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post

    The UAC is superior at the moment because it takes into account NMEs 21-30. When the BBC changed to calculating 30 positions it then had a Top 20 which contained very few records with an assumed 31 points. Their 21-30 calculations created a buffer zone to minimise this. ... Sorry, I'm beginning to sound like the BBCs defence attorney!
    Ha Ha the UAC Top 30 doesn't have ANY records with an assumed 31 points (or 21 points as the case may be) so it didn't need a 'buffer zone' as it was factual all the way from #1 to #30. Every point was accounted for.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    That is why I didn't even consider using this system for the UAC.
    If anyone can produce a database tutorial showing that counting chart points up is any different than counting chart points down I would be fascinated to see it.

    The UAC is superior at the moment because it takes into account NMEs 21-30. When the BBC changed to calculating 30 positions it then had a Top 20 which contained very few records with an assumed 31 points. Their 21-30 calculations created a buffer zone to minimise this. ... Sorry, I'm beginning to sound like the BBCs defence attorney!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 21st 1959

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 21st 1959 NME MM DISC RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey 75 25 40 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    4 1 As I Love You - Shirley Bassey 1 1 1 1 2 5940
    1 2 I Got Stung / One Night - Elvis Presley 2 2 2 2 1 5860
    6 3 Does Your Chewing Gum Lose It's Flavour - Lonnie Donegan 3 4 5 3 3 5475
    8 4 Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - The Platters 4 3 3 6 5 5360
    2 5 To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears 5 6 4 4 4 5250
    3 6 Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey 6 5 6 5 6 5115
    5 7 Baby Face - Little Richard 7 7 8 9 7 4695
    7 8 Problems - The Everly Brothers 8= 7 9 8 8 4650
    10 9 A Pub With No Beer - Slim Dusty 8= 9 7 7 9 4530
    13 10 (All Of A Sudden) My Heart Sings - Paul Anka 10= 12 14 12 10 3870
    11 11 High School Confidential - Jerry Lee Lewis 10= 14 11 10 13 3695
    9 12 The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan 13 10 12 15 15 3650
    16 13 The Little Drummer Boy - The Beverly Sisters 12 15 10 11 14 3545
    23 14 My Happiness - Connie Francis 14 16 16 16 11 3300
    17 15 Petite Fleur - Chris Barber 15 11 13 20 16 3290
    14 16 I'll Be With You In Apple Blossom Time - Rosemary June 16 17 17 14 16 2980
    15 17 Wee Tom - Lord Rockingham's XI 18 19 19 12 2520
    28 18 Gigi - Billy Eckstine 20 18 19 19 1995
    12 19 It's OnLy Make Believe - Conway Twitty 19 21 18 13 1795
    29 20 The Little Drummer Boy - The Harry Simeone Chorale 17 13 15 1750
    18 21 Chantilly Lace - The Big Bopper 23 20 1260
    NEW 22 Side Saddle - Russ Conway 23 17 1160
    26 23 Stagger Lee - Lloyd Price 29 18 930
    24 24 Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra 20 825
    21 25 I'll Remember Tonight - Pat Boone 22 675
    22 26 The World Outside - The Four Aces 29 18 670
    19 27 Livin' Lovin' Doll - Cliff Richard 23 600
    NEW 28 The Wonderful Secret Of Love - Robert Earl 28 20 500
    25 29 Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan 26 375
    RE 30 Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio 27 300
    20 Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI
    27 You Always Hurt The One You Love - Connie Francis
    29 The World Outside - Ronnie Hilton

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    There were extra rules applied to the bottom of their chart which are on the BBC file and quoted by RokinRobin on the 'POTP/TOTP number ones' thread here. They must have been aware of the weakness of applying 21 points to the gaps.

    To be fair to the pore ol' Beeb, as soon as MM expanded to a Top 30 they started calculating 30 positions in order to make their Top 20 more robust. (This is often erroneously described as them enlarging to a BBC Top 30, but that didn't happen until the arrival of Radio 1 in 1967.)
    This was another of my issues with the BBC chart multiple ties and multiple errors aside. The system of allocating every record not on a chart 21 points (or later 31 points) threw the spanner of inaccuracy into the works. Not every uncharted record could be #21 some would have been lower, some much lower. So in effect it produced a chart that veered away from being factually correct especially at the lower end. It actually made a mockery of the points system as they were actually awarding points for unknown chart positions.

    That is why I didn't even consider using this system for the UAC.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    There were extra rules applied to the bottom of their chart which are on the BBC file and quoted by RokinRobin on the 'POTP/TOTP number ones' thread here. They must have been aware of the weakness of applying 21 points to the gaps.

    To be fair to the pore ol' Beeb, as soon as MM expanded to a Top 30 they started calculating 30 positions in order to make their Top 20 more robust. (This is often erroneously described as them enlarging to a BBC Top 30, but that didn't happen until the arrival of Radio 1 in 1967.)

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    More BBC errors for 14/2/59: 19 Beverly Sisters - Little Drummer Boy (77)
    20= Tommy Dorsey - Tea For Two Cha Cha (78)
    20= Pat Boone - I'll Remember Tonight (78)
    Yeah you're right David the points totals doesn't justify their chart outcome yet again.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    More BBC errors for 14/2/59: 19 Beverly Sisters - Little Drummer Boy (77)
    20= Tommy Dorsey - Tea For Two Cha Cha (78)
    20= Pat Boone - I'll Remember Tonight (78)

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    He worked with a lot of artists in his TV show and added his name to make them sell a bit more and start off. I think he did that with Kenny Ball in 1962 but am
    unsure….. I know he did something at that point like ‘lonnie donegan presents…’ but might have the artist wrong!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    It might come as a surprise to some people but later this year those popular crooners of the day Miki and Griff will have a minor hit with The Lonnie Donegan Skiffle Group. Apparently Lonnie's backing accompanied a few of their songs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    ​​McCartney must have been an early admirer as he went to a Donegan concert on 11th November 1956, according to The Beatles Bible.

    (Alan Smith posted on that site earlier this year - so presumably is still around.)

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Pub With No Beer is one my dad used to sing (he played the guitar and did perform in some clubs in the early 1970’s). I liked the song a lot

    I think Lonnie was doing stuff that got people in and the act developed into that. When I saw him in about 1989 the act was the classic songs because that’s what people wanted. In the 1950’s you had that mix of music and odd acts. Look at for example Ken Dodd and those Victorian music hall type shows on bbc 4.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    'A Pub With No Beer' the first Australian record in the UK charts, I believe. (I like The Dubliners later cover.)

    Although Lonnie's first novelty song his stage show always had a humorous streak running through it. Watching him on YouTube I get the impression he saw himself as an entertainer rather than just a singer.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    How weird, two months after Christmas and two versions of The Little Drummer boy chart in time for Valentine's Day.
    Lonnie Donegan moves on to show his novelty side for the first time but it won't be his last.
    Huge variations with Petite Fleur, 14 and 15 in two charts and 27 and nowhere on the other two.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 14th 1959

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 14th 1959 NME MM DISC RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey 75 25 40 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 I Got Stung / One Night - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 6000
    2 2 To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears 2 4 2 4 2 5570
    4 3 Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey 3= 3 5 2 4 5530
    5 4 As I Love You - Shirley Bassey 3= 2 3 3 6 5495
    3 5 Baby Face - Little Richard 5 5 4 7 3 5265
    10 6 Does Your Chewing Gum Lose It's Flavour - Lonnie Donegan 6 6 7 5 5 5075
    6 7 Problems - The Everly Brothers 7= 8 8 6 7 4740
    7 8 Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - The Platters 7= 7 6 8 8 4725
    8 9 The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan 9 9 11 13 9 4190
    22 10 A Pub With No Beer - Slim Dusty 10 11 10 15 10 3925
    11 11 High School Confidential - Jerry Lee Lewis 12 12 16 9 13 3760
    9 12 It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty 11 13 9 11 15 3660
    16 13 (All Of A Sudden) My Heart Sings - Paul Anka 14 10 13 16 14 3645
    18 14 I'll Be With You In Apple Blossom Time - Rosemary June 13 14 12 14 12 3570
    19 15 Wee Tom - Lord Rockingham's XI 15 16 12 11 3085
    NEW 16 The Little Drummer Boy - The Beverly Sisters 20 16 19 1845
    NEW 17 Petite Fleur - Chris Barber 16 27 14 15 1685
    17 18 Chantilly Lace - The Big Bopper 26 20 20 1475
    24 19 Livin' Lovin' Doll - Cliff Richard 20 17 1385
    13 20 Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI 18 25 15 18 1370
    26 21 I'll Remember Tonight - Pat Boone 19 17 1320
    25 22 The World Outside - The Four Aces 18 20 1250
    NEW 23 My Happiness - Connie Francis 19 18 1225
    12 24 Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra 19 15 1200
    15 25 Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan 22 17 1025
    NEW 26 Stagger Lee - Lloyd Price 29 18 930
    20 27 You Always Hurt The One You Love - Connie Francis 17 10 840
    NEW 28 Gigi - Billy Eckstine 20 825
    23 29 The World Outside - Ronnie Hilton 22 675
    NEW 29 The Little Drummer Boy - The Harry Simeone Chorale 22 675
    29 You're The Top Cha - Al Saxon 19 300
    14 Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio 28 225
    The Wonderful Secret Of Love - Robert Earl 29 150
    21 Love Makes The World Go 'Round / Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como
    27 Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele
    27 That's My Doll - Frankie Vaughan

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    I wonder whether the BBC decided to split the titles because they were in the top 3 - not sure how though - I was going to say that they split it based on the fact that Little Richard is staying at 2 while The Teddy bears would be climbing to 2, but it would make more sense to be the other way round, so maybe its just that somebody couldn't count??
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Tue May 17, 2022, 02:18.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Great info.

    I suppose you know that Feb-59 was a special time for British records, because 3 of them were in the upper echelons of the Billboard chart simultaneously - inciuding that Chris Barber one you mention.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    When the NME chart book came out they said it included some corrections. Have these been identified?
    I don't know if they were corrected in later volumes but in the first edition the following were omitted that I am immediately aware off.

    1952 20th December Kay Starr Comes-A-Long-A-Love from #3
    1959 28th February Petite Fleur Chris Barber from #8

    But the first volume also corrected the following error made in the paper at the time.

    1972 25th March Donnie Elbert I Can't Help Myself which in the book was slotted in as extra #10 with Floy Joy by The Supremes.

    In 1974 19th January Diana Ross All Of My Life was omitted from the paper and was added in later as an extra #17 with Street Life by Roxy Music.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    When the NME chart book came out they said it included some corrections. Have these been identified?
    I am not aware of them all - I think it was some of the weeks when entries were omitted (Such as the week Russ Conway Got A Match charted at 30 and yet didn't....)



    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    There is a very peculiar claim across the web that 'Livin Lovin Doll' was released to pretend that he was fulfilling an obligation to release 'Livin Doll' - as if they wouldn't notice the difference!

    ------

    When the NME chart book came out they said it included some corrections. Have these been identified?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    15 27 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard

    NEW 28 Livin' Lovin' Doll - Cliff Richard

    A much weaker follow-up to his previous hits. A long wait for his first number one?
    I agree Brian but two absolute belters to follow this year.

    Leave a comment:

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