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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    BTW, on the 20th June, the last weeks positions for the two versions of Personality are switched. On the 13th June Chart, Lloyd Price was at 22 and Anthony Newley at 23.
    I have corrected that thanks David.

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    BTW, on the 20th June, the last weeks positions for the two versions of Personality are switched. On the 13th June Chart, Lloyd Price was at 22 and Anthony Newley at 23.

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Interestingly, most of the chart combos I pointed out for the June 13th chart are repeated in the June 20th chart. Side Saddle's positions are tied for NME and Disc (8) and MM and RM (12), Marty Wilde (Teenager in Love) tie for NME and RM (4) and are similar for MM and Disc (6 and 7) and the Everly Brothers are again similar for NME/MM (20/19) and Disc/RM (11/13).

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    Yeah that fact on the three way number one initiating the BMRB chart is a commonly held misconception. It was not the case. Discussions were well underway before that, as Robbie also pointed out, to have an official national chart. Certainly the three way number one would have added further evidence that a national chart was indeed needed.
    Yes, the article was printed about a month before the triple chart entry. It's a fun read and I mention it within the 1968 volume of the 70 years series.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Robbie posted here an article from Billboard about discussions with the BBC and BMRB planning a sales chart which preceded the infamous 3-way tie, so it was not the original cause - although could well have been a catalyst.
    Yeah that fact on the three way number one initiating the BMRB chart is a commonly held misconception. It was not the case. Discussions were well underway before that, as Robbie also pointed out, to have an official national chart. Certainly the three way number one would have added further evidence that a national chart was indeed needed.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    The screengrab of the fake board on that Des and Mick website is from the Chart Brittania show, in turn copied from the anniversary show. I can't remember whether they cut Saville out of the CB clip, but there are several photos of the real board they could have used cutting him out. The board with Sandie Shaw at number one, in the other screengrab, is genuine.

    Robbie posted here an article from Billboard about discussions with the BBC and BMRB planning a sales chart which preceded the infamous 3-way tie, so it was not the original cause - although could well have been a catalyst.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post

    Wow, okay. I don't recall seeing the show TBH.... In that case absolutely agree!
    I must try and find that clip although it might be deleted given that JS was present.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    It was him JS who opened the anniversary show though Lonnie standing in front of the board with the RR chart replacing the original and saying something like , welcome to TOTP and this is the chart. What a travesty .
    Wow, okay. I don't recall seeing the show TBH.... In that case absolutely agree!

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
    They probably did it to avoid using the image above with him in it…
    It was him JS who opened the anniversary show though Lonnie standing in front of the board with the RR chart replacing the original and saying something like , welcome to TOTP and this is the chart. What a travesty .

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    They probably did it to avoid using the image above with him in it…

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yes Brian that is the correct BBC chart used for the first TOTP and not the RR one that was used for the anniversary show. I was appalled when the BBC pulled that stunt hoping no one would notice. But I did.

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  • brian05
    replied
    More photos and some interesting text can be found here.

    Des and Mick Online - TV & Radio - Top of the Pops


    The BBC's method of producing an 'average' chart was not without its problems, not least its tendency to produce joint chart positions. This issue came to a head in August 1968, when three songs all shared number one position on the BBC chart, and thus TOTP had to feature all three. And so in February 1969, the BBC, in collaboration with the Record Retailer paper, commissioned the British Market Research Bureau to produce a weekly 'official' chart. This would now feature on both Pick and Top of the Pops. By now, the latter had switched to revealing the Top 20 records in the more familiar reverse order.
    Last edited by brian05; Mon June 6, 2022, 14:19.

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  • brian05
    replied
    The first ever BBC Top of the Pops chart from January 1964.



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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Hmmm, crazy as it may seem it is the paper with the least store returns that has the best balanced chart this week, Melody Maker.

    All other three charts have outliers which are so far they are actually outside the ball park and across the street.
    NME with Joan Regan, Disc with Bobby Darin (again) Duane Eddy and RM with Neil Sedaka, all out of sync with the others.

    It must surely come down to which shops and which type of shops each sampled to get such wayward differing results to these extremes.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending June 20th 1959

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 20th 1959 NME MM DISC RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey 75 25 40 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 Roulette - Russ Conway 1 1 1 1 1 6000
    1 2 A Fool Such As I / I Need Your Love Tonight - Elvis Presley 2 2 2 2 2 5800
    5 3 Dream Lover - Bobby Darin 3 3 3 5 3 5520
    3 4 It's Late / Never Be Anyone Else But You - Ricky Nelson * 4 7 4 3 6 5298
    10 5 A Teenager In Love - Marty Wilde 5 4 6 7 4 5230
    6 6 I've Waited So Long - Anthony Newley 7 5 7 6 5 5110
    4 7 It Doesn't Matter Anymore - Buddy Holly 6 6 5 4 7 5045
    8 8 Side Saddle - Russ Conway 8 8 12 8 12 4260
    11 9 Guitar Boogie Shuffle - Bert Weedon 9 10 14 14 8 4060
    9 10 Mean Streak / Never Mind - Cliff Richard 10 13 10 10 15 3675
    7 11 I Go Ape - Neil Sedaka 11 12 11 9 17 3645
    18 12 May You Always - Joan Regan 14 9 18 18 16 3395
    NEW 13 Peter Gunn / Yep - Duane Eddy 12 11 8 10 3335
    14 14 Three Stars - Ruby Wright 13 22 9 12 9 3305
    15 15 Poor Jenny / Take A Message To Mary - The Everly Brothers 15 20 19 11 13 3005
    24 16 Goodbye Jimmy Goodbye - Ruby Murray 17 16 17 15 19 2835
    22 17 Personality - Lloyd Price 16 18 15 11 2575
    13 18 Donna - Marty Wilde 18= 23 16 13 20 2355
    21 19 A Teenager In Love - Craig Douglas 18= 14 14 2295
    23 20 Personality - Anthony Newley 21 16 18 2130
    12 21 Come Softly To Me - Frankie Vaughan and The Kaye Sisters 20 19 13 19 1830
    16 22 Petite Fleur - Chris Barber 17 17 1610
    19 23 Where Were You On Our Wedding Day - Lloyd Price 24 20 965
    NEW 24 Please Don't Touch - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 26 20 650
    20 25 May You Always - The McGuire Sisters 24 525
    RE 26 Venus - Dickie Valentine 28 225
    29 27 Kansas City - Little Richard 29 150
    29 28 Margie - Fats Domino 30 75
    Never Be Anyone Else But You - Ricky Nelson (B) 14
    Take A Message To Mary - The Everly Brothers (A) 27
    17 Come Softly To Me - The Fleetwoods
    25 Idle On Parade (EP) - Anthony Newley
    26 Wait For Me / Willingly - Malcolm Vaughan
    27 Charlie Brown - The Coasters
    28 For A Penny - Pat Boone
    * This week the split side disadvantaged the averaged chart position so an average was taken from the other 3 charts and awarded to NME to give a more representative chart position.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Wikipedia says: "Despite reaching a respectable 10 position on the singles chart 'Mean Streak' would have fared better were it not having to compete in the charts with its flip side 'Never Mind' which peaked at number 21."

    Actually the peaks did not coincide, but I wonder if it would have made a difference anyway. Although 'Mean Streak' did hold up better when buyers coalesced around it.

    NME positions for the last 5 weeks:
    Mean Streak 12/10/12/11/11
    Never Mind 21/26/ - / - / -

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  • Splodj
    replied
    By now Disc were featuring Bubbling Unders. This week's 'Ones To Watch' were the records by Ruby Murray, Billy Fury and Lloyd Price.

    Similarly, Record Mirror had a Top 10 by 'British Artistes' where the bottom few were outside their general Top 20.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    Its definitely an interesting chart this week with certain tracks being comparable on two charts each time (but not the same two for each). For instance Side Saddle is at 7 on both NME and Disc while at 12 on both MM and RM. On the other hand Marty Wilde (A Teenager In Love) is at 8 and 9 on NME and RM, while 14 and 15 on MM and Disc. Then we have Frankie Vaughan at 10 on both NME and MM and 13 on both Disc and RM - The Everly Brothers follow a similar pattern (but the other way round being much higher on the Disc/RM pairiing (11 vs 20). The smoothing out of these complex 'interactions' by the UAC again emphasizes its value..
    I too believe the 'averaging' and smoothing out process produces a far more balanced and relevant chart for the years prior to BMRB.

    In effect the UAC at this time is using a sample of around 200 stores. Not bad for 1959.

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Its definitely an interesting chart this week with certain tracks being comparable on two charts each time (but not the same two for each). For instance Side Saddle is at 7 on both NME and Disc while at 12 on both MM and RM. On the other hand Marty Wilde (A Teenager In Love) is at 8 and 9 on NME and RM, while 14 and 15 on MM and Disc. Then we have Frankie Vaughan at 10 on both NME and MM and 13 on both Disc and RM - The Everly Brothers follow a similar pattern (but the other way round being much higher on the Disc/RM pairiing (11 vs 20). The smoothing out of these complex 'interactions' by the UAC again emphasizes its value..
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Sun June 5, 2022, 19:42.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    As NME sometimes specify both sides of a double-A (eg Elvis) does this mean they are separating them when they don't?

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    What Disc did put at number 5 - Cliff Richard - also looks bizarre. Although MM have it at 8, this may also be giving it a false boost due to low sampling.
    Yeah totally agree. DISC are also out of sync with Marty Wilde's Donna and Bert Weedon.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    What Disc did put at number 5 - Cliff Richard - also looks bizarre. Although MM have it at 8, this may also be giving it a false boost due to low sampling.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    DISC is way out of touch with Bobby Darin's Dream Lover at 10 while the other three charts place it at 5.
    This is a perfect example of the averaging out process working well as the average chart position on the UAC still places it it at 5 because the weighting of the other three charts pulls it to the centre ground despite the outlier in this case DISC.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending June 13th 1959

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 13th 1959 NME MM DISC RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey 75 25 40 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 A Fool Such As I / I Need Your Love Tonight - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 6000
    4 2 Roulette - Russ Conway 2 2 4 3 2 5710
    3 3 It's Late / Never Be Anyone Else Like You - Ricky Nelson 3 4 3 2 3 5565
    2 4 It Doesn't Matter Anymore - Buddy Holly 4 3 2 4 4 5525
    16 5 Dream Lover - Bobby Darin 6 5 5 10 5 5000
    5 6 I've Waited So Long - Anthony Newley 5 6 6 6 6 5000
    10 7 I Go Ape - Neil Sedaka 7 9 7 8 10 4430
    6 8 Side Saddle - Russ Conway 8= 7 12 7 12 4375
    8 9 Mean Streak / Never Mind - Cliff Richard 8= 11 8 5 14 4135
    22 10 A Teenager In Love - Marty Wilde 10= 8 14 15 9 4110
    9 11 Guitar Boogie Shuffle - Bert Weedon 10= 12 9 18 7 3935
    13 12 Come Softly To Me - Frankie Vaughan and The Kaye Sisters 10= 10 10 13 13 3900
    7 13 Donna - Marty Wilde 13 12 13 9 15 3715
    21 14 Three Stars - Ruby Wright 14 19 11 14 8 3460
    14 15 Poor Jenny / Take A Message To Mary - The Everly Brothers 15 20 20 11 11 3100
    12 16 Petite Fleur - Chris Barber 16 14 12 19 2755
    11 17 Come Softly To Me - The Fleetwoods 17 18 16 16 18 2730
    18 18 May You Always - Joan Regan 19= 17 18 20 20 2475
    15 19 Where Were You On Our Wedding Day - Lloyd Price 19= 16 17 1685
    19 20 May You Always - The McGuire Sisters 18 15 15 1600
    NEW 21 A Teenager In Love - Craig Douglas 24 16 1425
    NEW 22 Personality - Lloyd Price 26 17 1215
    NEW 23 Personality - Anthony Newley 22 17 1025
    29 24 Goodbye Jimmy Goodbye - Ruby Murray 23 600
    24 25 Idle On Parade (EP) - Anthony Newley 19 480
    26 26 Wait For Me / Willingly - Malcolm Vaughan 25 450
    17 27 Charlie Brown - The Coasters 27 300
    30 28 For A Penny - Pat Boone 19 300
    20 29 Margie - Fats Domino 28 225
    28 29 Kansas City - Little Richard 28 225
    25 You Made Me Love You - Nat King Cole 30 75
    Please Don't Touch - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates 30 75
    Never Be Anyone Else But You - Ricky Nelson (B) 21
    23 Fort Worth Jail - Lonnie Donegan
    27 C'mon Everybody - Eddie Cochran

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    One of the quirks of doing these calculations by hand is the significance of the order in which you write out the records on your scoresheet. An error is more difficult to spot if the 'base' chart used places a record near where your total places it.

    For example, in that recent case of a 10 point error they must have used one of two charts as their base. If they had used either of the other two the error would have been obvious.

    Not in any way a reasonable excuse, but perhaps an explanation.
    Yes the BBC could have been doing with excel back then. Obviously the compiler performed poorly at school in mental arithmetic and adding up

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