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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I can entirely relate to that Splodj, my father hated TOTP so I too had to go to my grandparents to watch it every week from 64 too. My grandfather said it kept him young and 'in the know' but added it was the best laugh he had in the week.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    In 1964/5 I used to go round to my grandparents to watch TOTP. Initially they were not pop music enthusiasts, but they got caught up in the 'soap opera' aspect of the charts. They would discuss with their friends what had come in, gone up, made number one etc. They knew nothing about NME or RR. To them and millions of others the charts were the BBC ones.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Funnily enough kjell both Cliff and Elvis back then often had a ballad side and a rocker side on their discs so yeah, double appeal.

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  • kjell
    replied
    To me it has always been the song and the performance of it that has been most important, and there have been double A sides out there which were both worth listening to despite often being quite unlike. In fact some record companies did speculate in having singles with one ballad and one rocky side in the hope of catching sales to both segments.
    I see that the double positions of NME make a problem that can’t be easily solved in the era prior to sales figures charts. I completely agree with Brian on the two other counts.

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  • Gambo
    replied
    100% right MrT and it always annoys me when some people seek to argue that NME was the preferred chart of the period - usually based on the fact that they remember the more prominent chart of that era was NME's and probably followed it themselves assuming it was pretty accurate. Okay, it may not be hard to put a case for it still being superior by many important measures to the RR chart, which was retrospectively and unwisely given 'official' canonised status. But the fact is no other singular chart compiled contemporaneously offered a completely untainted and preferable alternative - which of course is the engine driving what you have done with the UAC.

    It's interesting that the point Splodj makes about NME trying to somehow reflect over-the-counter sales yet to come after only two days' retail before the new chart was prepared strikes chords with the conundrum presented to the OCC in the mid-2010s when (rightly or wrongly) Friday was alighted upon as the preferred day of the week for global new music releases. They had the option of simply continuing the way they had for decades and sticking with a Sunday-to-Saturday survey week (which more-or-less tallied with the actual calendar week and so made sense to most chart followers), but having only two days' sales of new releases before it ended, or, break massively with tradition (and the conventional calendar) and re-align the survey frame to Friday-to-Thursday to take account of a full seven days' sales for titles new to the market. As we know, they opted for the latter, despite the onward consequences (chief among them forcing Radio 1 to move its long-established Sunday chart broadcast to an unappealing Friday early evening slot) as they obviously felt it somehow might make them seem behind the times to continue issuing a chart on a Sunday where new material may not yet have reached its full potential. Okay, popular releases would post a big climb the following week, but arguably may not attain as high a peak as they would've with a whole week's consumption behind them. To me this seemed a secondary concern as by the latter half of the '10s 'front-loading' and even paid-for sales themselves had become rather outmoded concepts (at least for singles) and so did it really matter if a peak chart position was one or two beneath what it could've been if first-week sales/streams weren't split between two survey weeks? It's not as if that hadn't been the norm in the pre-front-loaded era where singles were issued predominantly on Fridays and their initial potential chart appearance would be only two days later. But it strikes me that NME in the 1960s - not even shackled by commitments to a weekly national broadcast like OCC were in 2015 - could simply just have adjusted their survey week to Friday-to-Thursday to allow the full might of seven days' sales for new releases make their greatest impact on their first 'week' in their chart. As far as I know, they never considered that and stuck to calendrical convention. Maybe it wouldn't have worked with whatever day of the week the mag actually hit the shops? Or retailers in their sample just wouldn't have gone for reporting to them on a different day to any other publication? I imagine there would've been downsides to such a move. But if they were so het-up about ensuring they didn't seem behind the times when only a couple of days' sales had elapsed at the point of compiling their rankings, it surely should've been a potentially preferable solution to second-guessing how actual sales would pan out in the remaining five days by betting on and including whatever the label's reported pre-order shipment was?

    Oh well, all lost in the mists of time I suppose, and few readers of NME at the time would've given two hoots even if they'd known about it, any more than current chart followers do about the inconsistencies and manipulations of the modern official charts. Yet it does show that some issues in the world of music and charts that check its commercial impact endure across the decades and arguably never satisfactorily get resolved, even after half a century.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah no doubt about it, NME had three big disadvantages in the sixties, continuing, to split sides, taking advance orders into consideration, and including albums in the singles chart.

    That is why NME could never be considered as the best chart of the sixties. MM, with their biggest store sample and not indulging in the three disadvantages above was surely the superior music paper chart.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    ahead, they did not want to have the record at the lower position indicated by their tally of only 2 days sales.

    Clearly there were difficulties with this. The main one being that they could not know how many sales would make number one. Another being fed false info by the record company. The Sun showed that they were wrong to put Little Red Rooster in at the top.

    Also it would mean that there was bound to be some double accounting, as they were giving points to records already credited for sales.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    I imagine 'including pre-orders' meant getting an advance figure from the record company and doing an override to put that record at number one.

    The logic from NME's perspective was that if they knew there were going to be enough sales for that record to be number one, to maintain their reputation for being ah

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 3rd 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    4 1 Surrender - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    1 2 Runaway - Del Shannon 2 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    3 3 The Frightened City - The Shadows 3 3 4 3 3 3 9180
    7 4 More Than I Can Say - Bobby Vee 4 4 3 5 4 4 8860
    2 5 Blue Moon - The Marcels 5 8 5 4 5 5 8450
    5 6 On The Rebound - Floyd Cramer 6= 5 6 7 8 6 8120
    9 7 You'll Never Know - Shirley Bassey 6= 6 7 9 7 8 7750
    10 8 What'd I Say - Jerry Lee Lewis 8 9 8 10 6 10 7330
    6 9 You're Driving Me Crazy - The Temperance Seven 9 10 13 6 11 9 7170
    8 10 Don't Treat Me Like A Child - Helen Shapiro 11 13 10 8 9 7 7050
    12 11 But I Do - Clarence 'Frogman' Henry 10 7 9 12 10 11 6980
    19 12 Have A Drink On Me - Lonnie Donegan 12= 11 11 13 12 12 6300
    16 13 Little Devil - Neil Sedaka 12= 12 12 11 13 18 6150
    13 14 Easy Going Me - Adam Faith 14 14 16 15 15 14 5330
    11 15 Wooden Heart - Elvis Presley 15= 18 15 14 16 16 5070
    25 16 Halfway To Paradise - Billy Fury 15= 15 20 19 19 23 4100
    26 17 Hello Mary Lou / Travellin' Man - Ricky Nelson 17 16 14 17 3760
    18 18 Warpaint - The Brook Brothers 18 22 16 18 13 3560
    29 19 I've Told Every Little Star - Linda Scott 19= 19 20 17 25 3050
    14 20 Theme From Dixie - Duane Eddy 20 18 17 2730
    23 21 Running Scared - Roy Orbison 21 19 20 27 2190
    27 22 I Still Love You All - Kenny Ball 17 18 30 1930
    20 23 African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth 24 17 19 1760
    17 24 Gee Whiz It's You - Cliff Richard 19= 30 14 15 1410
    24 25 Exodus - Ferrante and Teicher 23 20 970
    21 26 Little Boy Sad - Johnny Burnette 25 22 750
    NEW 27 Why Not Now - Matt Monro 26 24 610
    15 28 A Hundred Pounds Of Clay - Craig Douglas 29 21 460
    NEW 29 Well I Ask You - Eden Kane 27 320
    NEW 30 She She Little Sheila - Gene Vincent 28 240
    How Wonderful To Know - Pearl Carr and Teddy Johnson 26 150
    Where The Boys Are - Connie Francis 28 90
    A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart 29 60

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending June 3rd 1961

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    When we reach the Argentine we're really gonna show
    The world a brand of football that they could never know
    We're representing Britain; we've got to do or die
    For England cannae dae it 'cause they didnae qualify


    Pure poetry... not!
    Yip the singing aside that's the most cringeworthy bit

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  • Metalweb
    replied
    'We Have A Dream' from '82 wasn't too bad....

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  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    A Bank Holiday on the 22 May probably messed up it's returns.

  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Didn't you once point out that Record Retailer didn't make a scrap of difference to your calculations?

  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    You can't possibly know if the Melody Maker was correct that week. Instead of 110 shops being calculated they could have got have got 50 returns back that week, even if they did use all the shops every week, which I think we can assume they didn't (unless they wanted to tell the records companies where to buy the records). The number of stores used could vary wide. Yes you're charts are as accurate as you can make them. But to put a record four places lower in the top ten then the BBC's chart, when the record in question had massive pre-orders the week before it was released, shows how the point based charts have flaws in them.

  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    You have no evidence for either using pre-orders. Elvis was available to buy on the 19 May. In two days it could have sold over 100,000 copies for all we know. Had the Elvis single been in the Week Ending 20 May chart that would have been evidence that shops that supplied the charts were using advanced orders.
    And the variations could be down to bank holiday for 22 May that year.

  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    I must be honest and say i have yet to hear a decent football anthem to make the chart and that includes the worst of them all I'm ashamed to admit, the cringeworthy embarrassing Ally's Tartan Army in 1978.

    Even worse than our football performance that year.
    When we reach the Argentine we're really gonna show
    The world a brand of football that they could never know
    We're representing Britain; we've got to do or die
    For England cannae dae it 'cause they didnae qualify


    Pure poetry... not!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Metalweb View Post

    Spurs won the League / FA Cup double in the 60/61 season - presumably the record was made in honour of that feat...
    I must be honest and say i have yet to hear a decent football anthem to make the chart and that includes the worst of them all I'm ashamed to admit, the cringeworthy embarrassing Ally's Tartan Army in 1978.

    Even worse than our football performance that year.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post

    By flawed evidence I was just referring to the charts themselves. The variation between them clearly shows that they are flawed, but they are all we have to work with. The benefit of your chart is it 'averages out' the flaws, thus reducing their impact, making your chart a highly valuable endeavor.
    It has always been a dilemma for me brain since I started this project but a so worthwhile one. What charts to use. What methodology to use. It is entirely possible, and credible I have to say, to compile a dozen permutations of a chart and each one in its own way could be right.

    I have to say the biggest headache for me was do I use RR at all. It was so out of step and had the smallest sample so biggest margin of error. I actually considered not using it until August 1967 when Disc dropped out of the picture and by that time RR was a bit better.

    I went with it in the end because I wanted The Ultimate chart to be all encompassing. I could see the criticisms that lay ahead in not including 'The Official Chart', I nearly choked typing that. So on balance we have an averaged chart that is at least all encompassing and therefore fair and wholly reflective of the time warts and all.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    I suggest there is a parallel with MM having 'Day Tripper' enter at number 3. They knew this would be controversial, after a run of Beatles singles entering at 1, yet they robustly defended their placings and I found their openness persuasive.

    So I believe that on both occasions MM accurately and honestly calculated the returns they had.
    Alan Smith and I have to agree once stated that MM had the most accurate chart from July 1960. He based this on the fact that MM wanted to have the best chart service and invested heavily in this so from July 1960 they indeed did increase their weekly poll to 110 and theirs was the only chart to include stores from Northern Ireland.

    I set huge store on Alan's comprehensive research. He had many contacts inside the music papers and record business so was well placed to be an authority on chart compilation and methodology.

    That is why I use his figures for store numbers used by music papers. They are as close as it is possible to get.

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  • Metalweb
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post

    I was thinking the same thing when I saw it... Is it the 1st football song to chart? Also did Spurs win (presumably the FA cup or was it for the League)?
    Spurs won the League / FA Cup double in the 60/61 season - presumably the record was made in honour of that feat...

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  • Splodj
    replied
    I suggest there is a parallel with MM having 'Day Tripper' enter at number 3. They knew this would be controversial, after a run of Beatles singles entering at 1, yet they robustly defended their placings and I found their openness persuasive.

    So I believe that on both occasions MM accurately and honestly calculated the returns they had.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I must admit to preferring Marianne Fairhfull's version. Loved it then. Love it now.
    To be honest I just bought it to show off. But I regard it as a collectors item now because Mike Leander's arrangement for 'Con Le Mie Lacrime' varies from the one he did for the Stones English version.

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Given we will never have sales info for that period points are the best we have brain. I think your assumption about the advanced orders is a correct one. Can I ask though what u mean by 'flawed' evidence im not sure what u mean by that. Invariably difficult decisions have to be made sometimes and this is one of them. To be fair and transparent a system needs to be in place and consistently applied. I think my outcome is correct as it does also agree with the BBC average.
    By flawed evidence I was just referring to the charts themselves. The variation between them clearly shows that they are flawed, but they are all we have to work with. The benefit of your chart is it 'averages out' the flaws, thus reducing their impact, making your chart a highly valuable endeavor.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Interesting. I've been compiling a variant of the Ultimate Chart for my own amusement just based on the Top 20 (as 3 of the charts only have a top 20) and for the week of 27th May, I have Runaway easily at no. 1, followed by Surrender at 2, Blue Moon at 3, The Frightened City at 4, On The Rebound at 5, You're Driving Me Crazy at 6 and More Than I Can Say at 7. I also ranked it using the old no. of shops for MM (38) and that drops Blue Moon to 5 and switches You're Driving Me Crazy and More Than I Can Say. Even if Surrender had been no.1 on the RR, it would still rank no.2 (unless you use the old MM value then it makes no.1).
    I think this is the first time that there has been that much disparity between the Top 30 calculated by MrTibbs and 'my' Top 20. Most of the time it has just been re-arranging the lower positions. There were 12 differences this week!
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Thu February 4, 2021, 17:57.

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