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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    A Bank Holiday on the 22 May probably messed up it's returns.

  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Didn't you once point out that Record Retailer didn't make a scrap of difference to your calculations?

  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    You can't possibly know if the Melody Maker was correct that week. Instead of 110 shops being calculated they could have got have got 50 returns back that week, even if they did use all the shops every week, which I think we can assume they didn't (unless they wanted to tell the records companies where to buy the records). The number of stores used could vary wide. Yes you're charts are as accurate as you can make them. But to put a record four places lower in the top ten then the BBC's chart, when the record in question had massive pre-orders the week before it was released, shows how the point based charts have flaws in them.

  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    You have no evidence for either using pre-orders. Elvis was available to buy on the 19 May. In two days it could have sold over 100,000 copies for all we know. Had the Elvis single been in the Week Ending 20 May chart that would have been evidence that shops that supplied the charts were using advanced orders.
    And the variations could be down to bank holiday for 22 May that year.

  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    I must be honest and say i have yet to hear a decent football anthem to make the chart and that includes the worst of them all I'm ashamed to admit, the cringeworthy embarrassing Ally's Tartan Army in 1978.

    Even worse than our football performance that year.
    When we reach the Argentine we're really gonna show
    The world a brand of football that they could never know
    We're representing Britain; we've got to do or die
    For England cannae dae it 'cause they didnae qualify


    Pure poetry... not!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Metalweb View Post

    Spurs won the League / FA Cup double in the 60/61 season - presumably the record was made in honour of that feat...
    I must be honest and say i have yet to hear a decent football anthem to make the chart and that includes the worst of them all I'm ashamed to admit, the cringeworthy embarrassing Ally's Tartan Army in 1978.

    Even worse than our football performance that year.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post

    By flawed evidence I was just referring to the charts themselves. The variation between them clearly shows that they are flawed, but they are all we have to work with. The benefit of your chart is it 'averages out' the flaws, thus reducing their impact, making your chart a highly valuable endeavor.
    It has always been a dilemma for me brain since I started this project but a so worthwhile one. What charts to use. What methodology to use. It is entirely possible, and credible I have to say, to compile a dozen permutations of a chart and each one in its own way could be right.

    I have to say the biggest headache for me was do I use RR at all. It was so out of step and had the smallest sample so biggest margin of error. I actually considered not using it until August 1967 when Disc dropped out of the picture and by that time RR was a bit better.

    I went with it in the end because I wanted The Ultimate chart to be all encompassing. I could see the criticisms that lay ahead in not including 'The Official Chart', I nearly choked typing that. So on balance we have an averaged chart that is at least all encompassing and therefore fair and wholly reflective of the time warts and all.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    I suggest there is a parallel with MM having 'Day Tripper' enter at number 3. They knew this would be controversial, after a run of Beatles singles entering at 1, yet they robustly defended their placings and I found their openness persuasive.

    So I believe that on both occasions MM accurately and honestly calculated the returns they had.
    Alan Smith and I have to agree once stated that MM had the most accurate chart from July 1960. He based this on the fact that MM wanted to have the best chart service and invested heavily in this so from July 1960 they indeed did increase their weekly poll to 110 and theirs was the only chart to include stores from Northern Ireland.

    I set huge store on Alan's comprehensive research. He had many contacts inside the music papers and record business so was well placed to be an authority on chart compilation and methodology.

    That is why I use his figures for store numbers used by music papers. They are as close as it is possible to get.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post

    I was thinking the same thing when I saw it... Is it the 1st football song to chart? Also did Spurs win (presumably the FA cup or was it for the League)?
    Spurs won the League / FA Cup double in the 60/61 season - presumably the record was made in honour of that feat...

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I suggest there is a parallel with MM having 'Day Tripper' enter at number 3. They knew this would be controversial, after a run of Beatles singles entering at 1, yet they robustly defended their placings and I found their openness persuasive.

    So I believe that on both occasions MM accurately and honestly calculated the returns they had.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I must admit to preferring Marianne Fairhfull's version. Loved it then. Love it now.
    To be honest I just bought it to show off. But I regard it as a collectors item now because Mike Leander's arrangement for 'Con Le Mie Lacrime' varies from the one he did for the Stones English version.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Given we will never have sales info for that period points are the best we have brain. I think your assumption about the advanced orders is a correct one. Can I ask though what u mean by 'flawed' evidence im not sure what u mean by that. Invariably difficult decisions have to be made sometimes and this is one of them. To be fair and transparent a system needs to be in place and consistently applied. I think my outcome is correct as it does also agree with the BBC average.
    By flawed evidence I was just referring to the charts themselves. The variation between them clearly shows that they are flawed, but they are all we have to work with. The benefit of your chart is it 'averages out' the flaws, thus reducing their impact, making your chart a highly valuable endeavor.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Interesting. I've been compiling a variant of the Ultimate Chart for my own amusement just based on the Top 20 (as 3 of the charts only have a top 20) and for the week of 27th May, I have Runaway easily at no. 1, followed by Surrender at 2, Blue Moon at 3, The Frightened City at 4, On The Rebound at 5, You're Driving Me Crazy at 6 and More Than I Can Say at 7. I also ranked it using the old no. of shops for MM (38) and that drops Blue Moon to 5 and switches You're Driving Me Crazy and More Than I Can Say. Even if Surrender had been no.1 on the RR, it would still rank no.2 (unless you use the old MM value then it makes no.1).
    I think this is the first time that there has been that much disparity between the Top 30 calculated by MrTibbs and 'my' Top 20. Most of the time it has just been re-arranging the lower positions. There were 12 differences this week!
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Thu February 4, 2021, 18:57.

    Leave a comment:


  • BrainDamageII
    replied
    Manchester United Calypso by Edric Connor entered Melody Maker charts just after Munich if you can class that as a football song

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah the Spurs song is the first football song to chart guys.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Given we will never have sales info for that period points are the best we have brain. I think your assumption about the advanced orders is a correct one. Can I ask though what u mean by 'flawed' evidence im not sure what u mean by that. Invariably difficult decisions have to be made sometimes and this is one of them. To be fair and transparent a system needs to be in place and consistently applied. I think my outcome is correct as it does also agree with the BBC average.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by Metalweb View Post
    I'd forgotten that 'Spurs Song' by 'The Totnamites' made the NME chart.

    Was it the first ever football hit? I can't think of an earlier one...
    I was thinking the same thing when I saw it... Is it the 1st football song to chart? Also did Spurs win (presumably the FA cup or was it for the League)?

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    NME and DISC both included pre-orders, Perhaps this is what makes the difference for MM?
    Or again, as has already been pointed it, its the difference between ranking sales and points, which most of the time are relatively similar, but when a big event such as an Elvis single comes along, the points may not accurately reflect the sales. But however you look at it the Ultimate Chart, based on calculations and carefully laid out and clear criteria, has Del Shannon at no.1 and its supported by the available (flawed?) evidence.

    It's also interesting that the other positions are quite variable too between the charts this week. Much more than we normally see I feel.
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Thu February 4, 2021, 16:54.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    I'd forgotten that 'Spurs Song' by 'The Totnamites' made the NME chart.

    Was it the first ever football hit? I can't think of an earlier one...

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I must admit to preferring Marianne Fairhfull's version. Loved it then. Love it now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    The first import I bought was the Stones; the Italian version of As Tears Go By. They were in a box on the counter. At least the dealer said he had imported them. Now I am not so sure!

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    It is quite a big step to override and omit a number one that might well have been the real biggest seller that week. Personally I do not doubt the MM position, but would like to know why RR was even more astray than usual.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    If the Beeb gave 'Runaway' it's moment in the sun then most would have regarded it as a number one at the time. Oi

    he first ompo

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Also the BBC did not include RM or RR in their chart so it is only a partial overview.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I dont agree Graham. The figures are spot on. Thats what the charts say. Thats what the stores say. Thats what the calculations say. I wont alter facts to present what some would like to see. Thats the correct outcome. If your real chart says different then show us the actual documented evidence to prove it and not just the outcome opinion. My evidence is transparent and all there for everyone to see.

    Leave a comment:

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