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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I see we are now over 40,000 views to the thread. Wow !

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    NME flip-flopping with their number one; Presley then Allisons then Presley then Allisons.

    First entry for Gene Pitney, at least as a singer!

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The battle rages on ! Elvis holds firm but loses ground as The Allisons are now #1 in two music papers to Elvis' 3.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 15th 1961

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 15th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Wooden Heart - Elvis Presley 1 1 2 1 2 1 9790
    2 2 Are You Sure - The Allisons 2 2 1 2 1 2 9680
    4 3 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 3 3 3 3 5 3 9140
    3 4 Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard 4 5 6 4 3 4 8760
    7 5 Lazy River - Bobby Darin 5 4 4 9 4 5 8330
    8 6 And The Heavens Cried - Anthony Newley 6 8 8 5 6 6 8080
    10 7 F.B.I. - The Shadows 8 10 5 6 10 8 7730
    6 8 Exodus - Ferrante and Teicher 7 7 10 7 7 9 7680
    5 9 My Kind Of Girl - Matt Monro 9 11 12 8 8 7 7140
    11 10 Where The Boys Are - Connie Francis 10 9 9 10 9 10 7120
    19 11 You're Driving Me Crazy - The Temperance Seven 11 6 7 12 12 13 7020
    9 12 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 12 12 16 11 11 14 6130
    16 13 Warpaint - The Brook Brothers 13 16 11 13 13 17 5700
    24 14 Blue Moon - The Marcels 14= 14 14 14 16 24 5210
    12 15 Samantha - Kenny Ball 16 13 18 17 15 15 5040
    13 16 Baby Sittin' Boogie - Buzz Clifford 14= 15 18 15 14 19 5030
    22 17 African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth 18 18 13 20 17 22 4300
    26 18 Gee Whiz It's You - Cliff Richard 19 19 15 18 20 18 4290
    18 19 Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith 17 17 16 11 3370
    14 20 (Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods 24 20 18 12 2440
    15 21 Marry Me - Mike Preston 25 19 16 2250
    23 22 Don't Treat Me Like A Child - Helen Shapiro 20 19 19 29 1620
    17 23 Wheels - The String-A-Longs 21 20 1130
    NEW 24 A Hundred Pounds Of Clay - Craig Douglas 30 17 920
    NEW 25 The Muskrat Rumble - Freddy Cannon 22 720
    NEW 26 (I Wanna) Love My Life Away - Gene Pitney 23 640
    25 27 Seventy Six Trombones - The King Brothers 25 27 600
    NEW 28 Good Time Baby - Bobby Rydell 27 320
    NEW 29 Little Boy Sad - Johnny Burnette 29 26 310
    20 30 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 21 300
    Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes 28 240
    Sailor - Petula Clark 23 240
    Goodnight Mrs Flintstone - The Piltdown Men 25 180
    Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 28 90
    Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee 30 30

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah, It's certainly a mystery especially as it wasn't just one chart but all 5 of them all over the place for 3 weeks, 5 Record Retailers

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I've just finished 1961 and I don't know what must have been in the water in the month of December but the last three weeks of 16th, 23rd, and 30th, chart positions are all over the place, and I don't just mean RR this time I mean every one of charts. There are some really weird patterns.
    Normally NME, MM, Disc, and RM, are quite similar pattern wise with a difference of a few places in each, but in the 3 weeks mentioned above that goes completely out the window.

    RM granted published a 'skeleton' chart which was published on 30th December and said at the time to be inaccurate. This was corrected in January 1962 and I have used the corrected Top 20 for for 30th December but even that has at least one eye watering anomaly.
    Perhaps in the run up to christmas, the stores were extra busy and so did not have as much time to create accurate listings for submission or didn't even submit their lists. Don't know why we would see this in 1961 but not 1960 (or 1964-1968). Perhaps sales went up significantly in 1961 thus throwing the shops for a loop (so to speak) at Christmas - any evidence of this based on yearly volume? Or maybe fewer people were around at the magazine offices to create the charts? Was there a postal strike in some areas (maybe London) but not others? Or was there some other event that may explain it?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I've just finished 1961 and I don't know what must have been in the water in the month of December but the last three weeks of 16th, 23rd, and 30th, chart positions are all over the place, and I don't just mean RR this time I mean every one of charts. There are some really weird patterns.
    Normally NME, MM, Disc, and RM, are quite similar pattern wise with a difference of a few places in each, but in the 3 weeks mentioned above that goes completely out the window.

    RM granted published a 'skeleton' chart which was published on 30th December and said at the time to be inaccurate. This was corrected in January 1962 and I have used the corrected Top 20 for for 30th December but even that has at least one eye watering anomaly.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah Splodj RR had weird dates out of touch with the other papers and these were not corrected just adopted by the OCC which does make it confusing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I find the dates on the Official Charts site very confusing. For this week's chart it says '06 April 1961 - 12 April 1961' then below that as the main title is the first of those dates 6-Apr-61. Fair enough, I suppose that was the publication date. But then when you look at each record's 'Chart Facts', the 'First charted' and 'Chart run' dates are the latter date - 12-Apr-61.

    So for "Gee Whiz It's You" it says that entered at 33 on 5-Apr-61, but then when you click on 'View Chart' it turns out to be the chart dated 30-Mar-61.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Elvis continues to hold The Allisons at bay. Is their challenge over. In at 24 comes the excellent Blue Moon from The Marcels, I was way too young to remember it at the time but when I heard it on the radio years later you can believe I bought it then.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 8th 1961

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 8th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Wooden Heart - Elvis Presley 1 2 1 1 1 1 9820
    2 2 Are You Sure - The Allisons 2 1 2 2 2 2 9650
    4 3 Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard 3 3 4 4 3 3 9070
    3 4 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 4 4 3 3 5 4 9030
    5 5 My Kind Of Girl - Matt Monro 5 6 6 6 4 6 8350
    7 6 Exodus - Ferrante and Teicher 6= 7 9 5 9 8 7890
    8 7 Lazy River - Bobby Darin 6= 5 5 10 6 12 7770
    9 8 And The Heavens Cried - Anthony Newley 8 8 8 7 8 9 7670
    6 9 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 9 9 12 9 7 5 7300
    10 10 F.B.I. - The Shadows 10 11 10 8 12 7 7060
    14 11 Where The Boys Are - Connie Francis 11 10 7 11 11 16 6770
    12 12 Samantha - Kenny Ball 12 12 13 17 10 13 5730
    19 13 Baby Sittin' Boogie - Buzz Clifford 13 14 17 12 17 17 5410
    11 14 (Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods 14 15 16 16 13 10 5360
    13 15 Marry Me - Mike Preston 17 22 15 15 14 15 4770
    23 16 Warpaint - The Brook Brothers 15 20 13 13 16 4690
    16 17 Wheels - The String-A-Longs 16 16 18 15 11 4030
    17 18 Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith 19 17 14 14 3500
    26 19 You're Driving Me Crazy - The Temperance Seven 18 13 11 18 26 3440
    15 20 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 24 20 24 1980
    18 21 Sailor - Petula Clark 30 19 20 1730
    22 22 African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth 20 18 19 29 1700
    27 23 Don't Treat Me Like A Child - Helen Shapiro 23 20 1190
    NEW 24 Blue Moon - The Marcels 26 18 1180
    24 25 Seventy Six Trombones - The King Brothers 21 19 1160
    30 26 Gee Whiz It's You - Cliff Richard 19 25 1140
    20 27 Goodbye Mrs Flintstone - The Piltdown Men 25 18 870
    NEW 28 Pony Time - Chubby Checker 19 720
    NEW 29 Exodus - Mantovani 20 660
    25 30 Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 27 21 620
    Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes 29 23 400
    Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee 22 270
    Good Time Baby - Bobby Rydell 28 240
    A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart 27 120
    Exodus - Semprini 28 90
    'Til There Was You - Peggy Lee 30 30

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    It was actually a nice idea for a bit but no I won't be going down the road of a book. I am doing this project for the pleasure of it. I'm happy with just compiling these meaningful charts and sharing them here where they are appreciated and anticipated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    You can publish anything as long as you ask permission from the copyright owner. They can charge a fee, or let you have the rights free. In your case you would send a copy of one of the charts showing the layout of the chart in question to the copyright owner, explaining what you want to do. As you are simply referencing the positions and not printing out the charts themselves I can't see them objecting or even wanting a payment. Though no guarantees on that of course. Though of course they would want an acknowledgement, which in some cases might be a specific set of words. Write to the BBC too, asking to use the words "BBC Chart....etc". It could produce a favourable answer and would increase the marketability of the book. Don't assume the BBC will say no. If they are not paying for the book to be published they might be happy to see it and that might involve promotion on the Radio etc.
    Avoid the use of images, unless your own the rights to the pictures or they open source. As they will charge for them!

    PS: you couldn't publish them commercially as since you have put them on here, you have given what they call the "first rights" away.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    That's a decision for the future though. Meantime the remainder of 61, and 62/63 to do and then 56 to 59 to give us the full set of charts from March 1956 to February 1969.

    I am so looking forward to 63 in particular. Although I'm aware of some songs prior to that my whole musical world came alive in 63 actually sparked by The Beatles' She Loves You. My musical awakening had arrived.

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    Whether these charts are free to reprint depends on the judicial time limit Brian. You can check what’s in accordance with British law. It doesn’t have to the same legal time span as recorded music which in fact used to have 50 years earlier. 69 is 51 years away.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    If this came to fruition I would have liked to include the constituent charts lots of interest is shown in the charts lined up side by side for comparison against each other. But, would I be allowed to publish charts from NME, MM, Disc, RM ?, and I defo doubt I could publish the RR ones as they are the property of the OCC ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    The constituent charts are a key part of the attraction to me, as I like to see the inner workings.

    If you replaced the BBC column with a non-weighted composite and a few rules they couldn't complain, even if it largely came up with the same positions they did. This is the sort of thing 'Pop Weekly' did in the 60s.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I've never considered that to be honest Graham but it is an interesting idea I have to admit.

    I think I would only be allowed to publish The Ultimate Averaged Chart though and not the other charts side by side like I do on here.
    I wouldn't really even need to mention or even involve the BBC because I'm not using their chart just doing a more robust recalculation of averaging the music paper charts in the same way they did plus my added layer. Obviously my title here 'of the BBC charts reimagined' could not be used.

    It's certainly something to consider when I finish but the big question then would be, would there be much demand for such a chart from the fifties and sixties ?
    There probably would be. It's all in the wording of the intro and the text. For example, I've sold quite a few copies of my chart books (10-15 is quite a lot as far as I'm concerned!) so it depends the outlay and resources. You would almost certainly need to remove all reference to The BBC and just bill it as an average to attempt to arrive at representative chart for the 1960's... But it could certainly be done. The Graham Betts current chart books are Amazon print on demand. They have to be 20 as Amazon gets half (I looked into the scale of charges a long time ago).

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I've never considered that to be honest Graham but it is an interesting idea I have to admit.

    I think I would only be allowed to publish The Ultimate Averaged Chart though and not the other charts side by side like I do on here.
    I wouldn't really even need to mention or even involve the BBC because I'm not using their chart just doing a more robust recalculation of averaging the music paper charts in the same way they did plus my added layer. Obviously my title here 'of the BBC charts reimagined' could not be used.

    It's certainly something to consider when I finish but the big question then would be, would there be much demand for such a chart from the fifties and sixties ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Gambo View Post
    Such a shame Brian that your magnum opus will never see the light of day in print. If you did publish it, the OCC would have you clapped in irons! Or worse-still, arrange to have you 'starred-out'....
    I doubt they would be interested to be honest. However the BBC would. I don't know if they would be pleased, but if you were using the BBC name they would have to know that what you are intending to publish. I don't think they would be interested in publishing it, since they have little to say on the old charts they used to do. But you might get a radio interview once it is published to talk about it.
    But you could self-publish it via Amazon. There's no copyright issues with any of the material you have submitted on here and it wouldn't be too difficult a task to get the charts laid out in book format. I think the Page Plus software I use would do the job, you can buy a copy of that cheaply. And do it yourself! You would have to decide on the page size you would need and fitting the charts on each page so they were readable, yet not making it too big to increase the cost of the printing of it. But a few tests would reveal that. If you are interested I could do a test of A5 page using one of the charts from here. And if you got stuck with Page Plus you can e-mail me for help too.
    I would look into it, if I were you, once all the charts are done. You might even make some money out of it!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks for that Richard. Feedback like yours makes all the work that goes into this project worthwhile.

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard M White
    replied
    I've recently returned to UKMix having referred to this amazing thread for months. The work gone into this has been outstanding. No I'm not old enough to have been there at the time but I didn't know of the existence of the BBC's own charts until they were played on POTP when Fluff returned to Radio 1. A lot of the concerns I've had about their chart have been fully explained here. I always questioned how you could have a chart with three songs jointly at number 1 when not based on actual over the counter sales? Questions like these (and others) have been answered perfectly. Keep up the amazing work!

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    So 'Gee Whiz' appeared first on the RM chart. No wonder their singles reviewer was miffed!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Elvis holds on at the top but The Allisons re group and edge back up to #2. The novelty hit of 1961 debuts on the chart, The Temperance Seven with You're Driving Me Crazy probably due to it's crazy 1920's sound with a mix of jazz which was popular at the time.

    As mentioned in an earlier post in too comes Cliff's Gee Whiz.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 1st 1961

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 1st 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Wooden Heart - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    3 2 Are You Sure - The Allisons 2 2 3 2 2 2 9510
    2 3 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 3 4 2 3 3 4 9190
    4 4 Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard 4 3 4 4 4 3 9020
    5 5 My Kind Of Girl - Matt Monro 5 5 5 5 5 6 8550
    6 6 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 6= 8 8 6 6 5 8000
    7 7 Exodus - Ferrante and Teicher 6= 6 7 7 7 8 7970
    13 8 Lazy River - Bobby Darin 8= 7 6 9 9 10 7570
    10 9 And The Heavens Cried - Anthony Newley 8= 9 8 8 8 7 7540
    9 10 F.B.I. - The Shadows 10 10 11 10 12 11 6740
    8 11 (Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods 11 13 10 11 10 9 6610
    15 12 Samantha - Kenny Ball 12 11 17 16 11 13 5630
    17 13 Marry Me - Mike Preston 14 16 13 13 15 15 5540
    26 14 Where The Boys Are - Connie Francis 15 12 13 14 20 21 5320
    16 15 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 17 15 17 18 16 17 4720
    11 16 Wheels - The String-A-Longs 13 14 15 13 12 4590
    12 17 Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith 16 18 12 17 14 4340
    14 18 Sailor - Petula Clark 18 28 20 14 16 2750
    18 19 Baby Sittin' Boogie - Buzz Clifford 19 16 16 20 2430
    20 20 Goodnight Mrs Flintstone - The Piltdown Men 23 19 18 23 2250
    23 21 Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee 20 29 17 19 2060
    27 22 African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth 20 15 26 1990
    25 23 Warpaint - The Brook Brothers 21 12 1940
    21 24 Seventy Six Trombones - The King Brothers 26 19 24 1930
    19 25 Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 26 19 18 1390
    NEW 26 You're Driving Me Crazy - The Temperance Seven 18 29 1100
    NEW 27 Don't Treat Me Like A Child - Helen Shapiro 21 28 890
    22 28 Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes 24 22 830
    24 29 Exodus - Semprini 25 25 660
    NEW 30 Gee Whiz It's You - Cliff Richard 20 660
    Dream Girl - Mark Wynter 27 120
    'Til There Was You - Peggy Lee 30 80
    Pepe - Duane Eddy 30 30

    Leave a comment:

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