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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    I believe the only way you can look at how Record Retailer worked in practice is that it wasn't using all 85 shops to produce the chart. Alan Smith says that the chart was compiled by one man. And given that he had a day less to produce a chart than the other charts, had less time to do it in. To get around this problem he must have cut the number of shops he actually used to a VERY low level. Plus the postal system would also limit the number. The British Market Research Bureau had the same problem with the post in the 70's and onwards, cutting shop returns down. The less shops used would limit the sales level. It will show up with new hits especially. At that time records were issued on Friday, giving only two days of sales in the first week. However the stores can shift a lot on Saturday alone. If you take the Stones - Cloud record. It was issued on the 22 October. But the week ending date is misleading since it looks like the Stones had 8 days of sales, or at least seven! When in fact the sales period of the Chart for the week ending 30 October was actually the 18 to 23 October! The Stones track itself would have had a lot of orders meaning the record shops would have lots of copies to sell on the 22 and 23 October. The more shops you sample the more sales you will get. Cut down the number of shops and have more smaller stores taking part and you reduce the impact of new sellers. Many of the big stores that would have taken more orders and got the lion's share didn't take part and probably refused to do so in these charts.
    It's interesting to note that the Real Chart for the 24 October, covering the same seven days, has the Stones top on 159,000. And Ken on 145,000. A gap of only 14,000 copies.

    My conclusion is that Record Retailer was probably only using 25 stores to compile it's chart each week out of the 85, while the others were using 50+ depending on how many stores were sending in information.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 30th October 1965.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 30th 1965 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Tears - Ken Dodd 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    6 2 Evil Hearted You * / Still I'm Sad - The Yardbirds 5 11 2 2 4 18185
    8 3 Yesterday Man - Chris Andrews 2 2 5 3 5 17310
    7 4 It's Good News Week - Hedgehoppers Anonymous 4 4 3 4 6 17225
    2 5 Almost There - Andy Williams 3 5 4 5 2 17015
    4 6 Eve Of Destruction - Barry McGuire 6 8 6 10 3 15330
    11 7 Here It Comes Again - The Fortunes 7 7 7 6 9 15170
    NEW 8 Get Off Of My Cloud - The Rolling Stones 9 3 8 7 17 14940
    16 9 Yesterday - Matt Monro 8 6 9 8 10 14585
    3 10 If You Gotta Go, Go Now - Manfred Mann 10 9 10 9 7 13890
    5 11 Hang On Sloopy - The McCoys 11 9 11 11 8 13355
    10 12 Some Of Your Lovin' - Dusty Springfield 12 13 12 12 11 11950
    9 13 Message Understood - Sandie Shaw 13 14 13 13 12 11315
    12 14 In The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett 14 17 15 14 13 10030
    21 15 Love Is Strange - The Everly Brothers 15 16 14 15 22 9615
    18 16 Whatcha Gonna Do About It - The Small Faces 17 20 18 19 18 7755
    15 17 Il Silenzio - Nini Rosso 18 24 16 22 14 7495
    13 18 Baby Don't Go - Sonny and Cher 16 25 17 16 16 7475
    NEW 19 It's My Life - The Animals 20 14 23 18 6700
    14 20 Make It Easy On Yourself - The Walker Brothers 19 27 19 20 15 6260
    NEW 21 But You're Mine - Sonny and Cher 21 19 24 17 29 5720
    NEW 22 Positively 4th Street - Bob Dylan 23= 18 28 21 4350
    17 23 Look Through Any Window - The Hollies 22 20 26 19 4270
    27 24 Until It's Time For You To Go - The Four Pennies 23= 21 30 23 24 3645
    20 25 A Walk In The Black Forest - Horst Jankowski 26 21 21 3350
    NEW 26 The Carnival Is Over - The Seekers 27 23 27 24 3300
    19 27 ( I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - The Rolling Stones 25 22 20 3185
    NEW 28 Baby I'm Yours - Peter and Gordon 28 27 25 25 2900
    24 29 I Love You Yes I Do - The Merseybeats 29 30 26 29 23 2330
    NEW 30 I Know How It Feels To Be Loved - The Nashville Teens 22 1800
    * Unlike previous weeks the split sides this week
    affected the averaged chart position, so an average
    was taken from the other 3 charts and awarded to
    NME to give a more representative average.
    Still I'm Sad - The Yardbirds * 12
    Papa's Got A Brand New Bag - James Brown 30 29 25 1010
    1 2 3 - Len Barry 26 1000
    Something - Georgie Fame and The Blue Flames 27 30 900
    Zorba's Dance - Marcello Minerbi 26 425
    Shame And Scandal In The Family - Lance Percival 27 400
    That's The Way - The Honeycombs 27 340
    When I Get Home - The Searchers 28 300
    Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan 28 255
    That Means A Lot - P J Proby 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I'm really glad you are enjoying it membranemusic so thanks for your support and to all you guys who follow and post.

    Leave a comment:


  • membranemusic
    replied
    Mr Tibbs
    This is great work - thanks for your efforts, and thanks also to the interesting and relevant comments from others.
    Great!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is a prime example of just how out of touch RR was with the other three charts. In order to ensure you guys always get at least one chart every day I work ahead of what I post. I'm currently on 19th February 1966 the infamous week RR denied the Rolling Stones the No 1 position with 19th Nervous Breakdown. Aside from that huge anomaly RR had 9, yes 9, records in their top thirty that were not placed on any of the other 3. A third of their chart. Each week each other chart will have a few, 3 maybe 4, different but here is RR with 9.
    Furthermore so many other records chart positions on RR were way outside the parameters of the other 3.
    Massive evidence their paltry store sample of 85 was insufficient.
    Strangely though, Disc with only a fraction more of store samples than RR at 100 managed to produce a much more consistent chart that was in step with the others week on week.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    To add further controversy. Adding these weekly charts to my weekly lists from all the papers flags up another interesting point. NME can be just as inconsistent as RR. I never noticed this so obviously before but on some weeks NME is also as way out of the range as RR. Higher placings than the others and records leaving the chart before the others. Strangely MM in particular and Disc are week on week the most consistent. Any of you guys noticed this too ?
    I haven't studied it in detail Brian, but I have occasionally noticed NME with some 'odd man out' positions relative to the other charts. They did count pre-orders as sales for the first week, and I think Disc did that too, but that would only account for first week disparities. I'll look more closely in the upcoming charts...

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
    Robin, Alan Smith wrote this on this site which does mean that Record Retailer was compiled different to the other charts:
    Right Graham. RR compiled a day later than the other charts, but according to Alan their dealers still sampled over the same period Monday thru Saturday. Could it have been that some of the RR dealers reported their results for a Saturday thru Friday period, giving them an extra day to get their dealer chart into RR on time, not telling RR what they were doing? That would explain things, say if a small number of dealers did that, maybe 10% or so?

    I sure wouldn't think RR would have accepted a too late dealer chart and used it for the following week, that would have thrown their results off even more, ha.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    To add further controversy. Adding these weekly charts to my weekly lists from all the papers flags up another interesting point. NME can be just as inconsistent as RR. I never noticed this so obviously before but on some weeks NME is also as way out of the range as RR. Higher placings than the others and records leaving the chart before the others. Strangely MM in particular and Disc are week on week the most consistent. Any of you guys noticed this too ?

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Robin, Alan Smith wrote this on this site which does mean that Record Retailer was compiled different to the other charts:
    From this list a rotating core of 75 to 85 shops would post in their top 50 sellers to “Record Retailer” who would pay part of the postal costs. This new system commenced at the start of 1964. Unfortunately it was still a chart based on a different day of compilation to it’s competitors (Tuesday as opposed to Monday for all others) and the chart still suffered from unusually low first week entries e.g. no Beatles single ever entered at no 1 in the “Record Retailer” compiled listings.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    These snippets might add some light onto things:
    1964 - Record Retailer increases its sample pool from 30 to 85 by using EMI and Decca's distribution lists. Melody Maker and NME are using around 150 and Disc is polling 100 outlets
    1965 - The NME chart is suspected of 'hyping' charts when a member of their staff is found to be involved in manipulations resulting in Bob Dylan recordings enter their chart at much higher ratings than others
    1967 - Saturday 26th August - The Disc and Music Echo ceases using its own charts and uses a chart combined with that of Melody Maker, using a sample pool of 280 outlets. NME are now using 200 and Record Retailer are still using 85.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    As several have pointed out already, it's amazing to see how RR lags the other charts. For the above chart, look at the big movers up, and the big movers down, a change of 6 or more ultimate points, and RR lags behind in every case, except for the split Yardbirds record. I trust Alan Smith when he says RR's sample period was Monday thru Saturday like all the other charts, but something was definitely amiss at RR...
    Supposedly there was no overlap between the stores that the 4 different chart compilers used. While it doesn't seem likely, what if the stores that RR used had a delayed delivery schedule so that they didn't get their new stock until later in the week? This could explain why they underrepresent new releases and to some extent other tracks if they'd run out and didn't get replacement stock until later in the week. Alternatively perhaps they were smaller, less frequently visited stores in the RR panel and so they are not as up to date. Of course we can speculate until the cows come home but unless there is an historical record of which shops were used by RR and how they differ from those the other chart compilers used, we may never know why the RR chart lags behind the others.....

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    As several have pointed out already, it's amazing to see how RR lags the other charts. For the above chart, look at the big movers up, and the big movers down, a change of 6 or more ultimate points, and RR lags behind in every case, except for the split Yardbirds record. I trust Alan Smith when he says RR's sample period was Monday thru Saturday like all the other charts, but something was definitely amiss at RR...

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 23rd October 1965.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 23rd 1965 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Tears - Ken Dodd 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    3 2 Almost There - Andy Williams 2 2 2 2 2 18415
    2 3 If You Gotta Go, Go Now - Manfred Mann 3 3 4 3 3 17530
    5 4 Eve Of Destruction - Barry McGuire 4 4 3 5 4 17295
    4 5 Hang On Sloopy - The McCoys 5 5 5 4 5 16610
    13 6 Evil Hearted You / Still I'm Sad - The Yardbirds 6 10 6 6 9 14820
    14 7 It's Good News Week - Hedgehoppers Anonymous 8 7 8 8 10 14635
    19 8 Yesterday Man - Chris Andrews 9 6 7 7 18 14505
    6 9 Message Understood - Sandie Shaw 7 8 9 9 6 14425
    10 10 Some Of Your Lovin' - Dusty Springfield 10 12 10 11 8 13005
    20 11 Here It Comes Again - The Fortunes 11 9 12 10 17 12440
    17 12 In The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett 12 14 14 13 12 11065
    9 13 Baby Don't Go - Sonny and Cher 14 19 11 12 13 10830
    8 14 Make It Easy On Yourself - The Walker Brothers 13 15 16 15 7 10590
    11 15 Il Silenzio - Nini Rosso 15 18 13 16 11 10300
    NEW 16 Yesterday - Matt Monro 16 11 15 14 26 10125
    7 17 Look Through Any Window - The Hollies 17 17 18 17 14 8895
    16 18 Whatcha Gonna Do About It - The Small Faces 18 16 17 18 19 8820
    12 19 (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - The Rolling Stones 19 20 20 19 15 7510
    15 20 A Walk In The Black Forest - Horst Jankowski 20 23 19 20 16 6975
    NEW 21 Love Is Strange - The Everly Brothers 21 22 21 21 5300
    24 22 Papa's Got A Brand New Bag - James Brown 23 21 27 26 25 4010
    23 23 Zorba's Dance - Marcello Minerbi 22 30 22 24 21 4000
    29 24 I Love You Yes I Do - The Merseybeats 24 26 25 22 3400
    18 25 I Got You Babe - Sonny and Cher 25 23 20 2935
    21 26 Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan 26 26 29 30 22 2365
    NEW 27 Until It's Time For You To Go - The Four Pennies 27 24 23 2200
    27 28 You've Got To Hide Your Love Away - The Silkie 30 24 28 2005
    25 29 That Means A Lot - P J Proby 29 26 29 1850
    22 30 That's The Way - The Honeycombs 29 28 23 1430
    Still I'm Sad - The Yardbirds 13
    Take A Heart - The Sorrows 28 30 25 24 1395
    But You're Mine - Sonny and Cher 25 1200
    I Know How It Feels To Be Loved - The Nashville Teens 28 600
    The Carnival Is Over - The Seekers 27 400
    Just A Little Bit Better - Herman's Hermits 27 340
    When I Get Home - The Searchers 28 300
    Shame And Scandal In The Family - Lance Percival 30 250
    Help - The Beatles 29 170
    Laugh At Me - Sonny 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    There seemed to be no consistency. In October they split the Yardbirds yet in December they combined the Beatles double A sider. They probably knew the howls of protest that would come their way if the splitting prevented it reaching No 1.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    On the couple of charts above the split sides did not affect the average chart position but in the next few weeks coming up the split did so I had to adapt to accommodate this so as not to disadvantage it's chart position.
    NME doing this is always problematic when you start making a chart from the all. I'm glad you found a way around this.
    On the 50's chart, it would have been easier if NME had listed the record shops like Record Mirror did. At least you can tell if it was the shops that were listing them. Or even if both sides were in the same shop's chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    On the couple of charts above the split sides did not affect the average chart position but in the next few weeks coming up the split did so I had to adapt to accommodate this so as not to disadvantage it's chart position.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah the other papers had stopped listing sides separately since the late fifties but NME continued with this system past the mid sixties. Doing this and including LP's distorted the chart and in my view diminished it's credibility. It was almost a throwback to the days of the sheet music chart which identified individual songs that were selling and not records.

    Leave a comment:


  • BobPatience
    replied
    Did NME separate sides, as with 'Evil Hearted You/Still I'm Sad' here?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 16th October 1965.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 16th 1965 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Tears - Ken Dodd 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    2 2 If You Gotta Go, Go Now - Manfred Mann 2= 3 2 2 3 18130
    3 3 Almost There - Andy Williams 2= 2 3 3 2 18065
    5 4 Hang On Sloopy - The McCoys 4 4 4 4 5 17060
    4 5 Eve Of Destruction - Barry McGuire 5 5 5 5 4 16595
    9 6 Message Understood - Sandie Shaw 6 6 6 6 9 15620
    7 7 Look Through Any Window - The Hollies 8 8 8 8 7 14690
    6 8 Make It Easy On Yourself - The Walker Brothers 7 7 10 7 6 14575
    11 9 Baby Don't Go - Sonny and Cher 9 14 7 9 11 13300
    15 10 Some Of Your Lovin' - Dusty Springfield 11 11 9 10 13 13130
    10 11 Il Silenzio - Nini Rosso 10 12 11 11 8 12755
    8 12 (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - The Rolling Stones 12 13 12 12 10 12035
    23 13 Evil Hearted You / Still I'm Sad - The Yardbirds 14= 10 14 14 22 10915
    20 14 It's Good News Week - Hedgehoppers Anonymous 16 9 17 15 21 10350
    12 15 A Walk In The Black Forest - Horst Jankowski 13 19 13 13 12 10315
    16 16 Whatcha Gonna Do About It - The Small Faces 14= 15 15 16 14 10145
    19 17 In The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett 17 17 16 17 17 9140
    13 18 I Got You Babe - Sonny and Cher 18 21 18 20 15 7710
    NEW 19 Yesterday Man - Chris Andrews 20 16 20 18 7050
    NEW 20 Here It Comes Again - The Fortunes 22 18 21 19 29 6470
    14 21 Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan 19 23 23 21 16 5875
    18 22 That's The Way - The Honeycombs 21 24 22 22 18 5655
    17 23 Zorba's Dance - Marcello Minerbi 23 27 19 23 20 5535
    24 24 Papa's Got A Brand New Bag - James Brown 24 22 26 25 26 4075
    NEW 25 That Means A Lot - P J Proby 26 24 25 26 3400
    22 26 Take A Heart - The Sorrows 25 28 28 24 25 2560
    29 27 You've Got To Hide Your Love Away - The Silkie 28 24 28 2005
    21 28 Just A Little Bit Better - Herman's Hermits 27 30 30 19 1370
    NEW 29 I Love You Yes I Do - The Merseybeats 29= 26 28 1300
    26 30 Universal Soldier (EP) - Donovan 27 1000
    Still I'm Sad - The Yardbirds 20
    She Needs Love - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders 29 27 900
    Help - The Beatles 29= 23 680
    Laugh At Me - Sonny 24 595
    Run To My Lovin' Arms - Billy Fury 29 27 540
    Yesterday - Matt Monro 29 400
    Home Of The Brave - Jody Miller 30 200
    Unchained Melody - The Righteous Brothers 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    It may well be the case that MM placed Penny Lane on top as like Robin said they had by far the biggest store sample, but maybe a likelier reason is that MM was the only paper to also sample Northern Ireland so it could have been this factor that made the difference. I can say now with certainty that Penny Lane won't make No 1 on the Ultimate Averaged Chart as the 3 others all had Release Me at No 1.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    So unless NME, Disc & RR had different no.1s at the time, PL/SFF didn't make no.1 on the BBC chart and won't make no.1 on the Ultimate Averaged chart either.......

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Well, Penny Lane/Strawberry FF was #1 on Melody Maker for 3 weeks, alas peaking at #2 on NME, Disc, & RR. But MM sampled the most record shops...

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Metalweb View Post
    A case of the older record buyer striking back.....

    Same when Engelbert thwarted Penny Lane/ Strawberry Fields Forever a couple of years later....
    That's not really true, unless you want to extols the virtues of the Record Retailer chart. The Beatles did make the top after allowing a week for Engelbert. Though he did go on to sell over 2 million copies. By 1967 Woolies was in charge of who was top and none of the other charts used them. The heartbroken female market insured Tears sold millions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    A case of the older record buyer striking back.....

    Same when Engelbert thwarted Penny Lane/ Strawberry Fields Forever a couple of years later....

    I've just realised (or remembered) that ABC quote Ken Dodd at the beginning of Tears Are Not Enough...
    Last edited by Metalweb; Thu August 13, 2020, 01:18.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yip. Tears was and is the biggest selling single in 1965. Over 1.6 million. The Beatles and Seekers both sold over a million too with their December hits but Dodd still outsold them both. How it managed to do so is one of life's great mysteries.

    Leave a comment:

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