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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Metalweb
    replied
    I've always felt the whole idea of splitting double A sides in a chart is illogical. After all, nobody can buy just one side of a record!

    Many double A sides would sell well if buyers liked both sides and felt they were getting good value for their money.

    I'm sure buyers wouldn't necessarily ask the shop for the side they preferred (I know I didn't!) but probably the side that was better known /getting more airplay....

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    It is certainly unnecessary work for me NME with their split sides on the chart lol. Every week when split sides make the NME chart I need to assess how this impacts on the overall chart position and as a safe guard compare this with an average from the other papers in order to get the correct outcome for the Ultimate Chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    NEW Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard

    Entered at no. 7 in RR but only no. 21 in RM.

    Such a large gap. Again RM seems slow for new entrants. What was the problem?
    I assume Brian you meant 7 in RM and 21 in RR.
    You will see this pattern continue again and again and at times the difference is frankly ridiculous. When we shortly get to Elvis' 'Surrender' you will see it enter at #1 on NME, RM, Disc, #4 on MM, yet it enter away down at 27 on RR. There is no better example to demonstrate just how weak the RR chart is to be so out of step with all the others time after time.

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  • brian05
    replied
    NEW Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard

    Entered at no. 7 in RR but only no. 21 in RM.

    Such a large gap. Again RM seems slow for new entrants. What was the problem?

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I don't understand why NME continued with charting double sided hits individually way past the time every other music paper stopped in the late fifties. This practise indicated the song took precedence over the record which was a throw back to The Sheet Music Chart. Given that the record chart really took over in 1955 from the song chart NME continued with individual songs way into the very late sixties.

    All the more strange when NME prided itself on its 'first to have a record chart and still the first' slogan.
    The only thing I can put it down to is idleness on the part of NME staff. Clearly the returns from the dealers would have some that listed the other side of the disc. But to sought these out across 80 shops would have taken time. So they didn't bother!
    I'm just wondering if the other papers solved the problem by telling dealers to only list one side of a record, though I suspect they either ignored the other side returns or added them on.

    On the dates of release thing, we do know that up to a certain point all records came out in the first or second week of the month. When the practice stopped is hard to pin down. As anyone come across anything in the music press - especially RR - about the introduction of Friday releasing?
    If you search for records from 1961 and narrow it down to the month, with no day added on 45 Cat, nearly all the records have no day on them, though some do. Though clearly an entry to any chart will pin it down more. Unfortunately the problem of chart dating a record is more complex, since sometimes something can spark a record that has been issued ages ago into life!

    The Cliff single does have a Friday 24 Feb date on it. None of the other new hits do. And with the chart date means that's just two days of sales for him!

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I don't understand why NME continued with charting double sided hits individually way past the time every other music paper stopped in the late fifties. This practise indicated the song took precedence over the record which was a throw back to The Sheet Music Chart. Given that the record chart really took over in 1955 from the song chart NME continued with individual songs way into the very late sixties.

    All the more strange when NME prided itself on its 'first to have a record chart and still the first' slogan.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    So he obviously passed on Hayley Mills then ha ha

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I'm working on November 1961 at present and as usual listen to some of the hits from that chart I'm not familiar with ...
    9th November 1961 was when Brian Epstein visited The Cavern to see the Beatles. There is light at the end of the tunnel!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Mark Wynter's Dream Girl lost out to Are You Sure in the contest for Britain's entry to the 1961 Eurovision Song Contest. It was actually a decent song in it's own right which is more than can be said for our entries over recent years.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 4th 1961

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 4th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    3 1 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 1 1 1 1 2 1 9850
    2 2 Sailor - Petula Clark 2 2 3 2 1 2 9560
    14 3 Are You Sure - The Allisons 4 4 2 4 4 4 9030
    1 4 Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 3 5 5 3 3 3 8960
    6 5 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 5 3 4 5 5 5 8800
    4 6 F.B.I. - The Shadows 6 6 6 6 6 7 8220
    7 7 Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith 7 7 9 7 7 6 7830
    13 8 (Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods 10 9 8 9 10 10 7240
    5 9 Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee 8 10 10 8 8 11 7220
    9 10 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 9 8 11 10 9 8 7140
    NEW 11 Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard 11 11 7 11 12 21 6490
    8 12 You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette 12 12 20 12 11 9 5930
    24 13 Wheels - The String-A-Longs 13 14 12 13 14 16 5780
    10 14 Pepe - Duane Eddy 14 16 17 16 15 13 5030
    20 15 Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee 16 14 15 17 18 14 5020
    15 16 Gather In The Mushrooms / Pepy's Diary - Benny Hill 15 23 18 14 13 12 4760
    25 17 Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes 18 13 14 19 26 3930
    11 18 Sailor - Anne Shelton 17 22 15 16 22 3500
    16 19 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 19 20 18 17 15 3490
    17 20 New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds 20 17 20 23 2570
    NEW 21 Samantha - Kenny Ball 18 13 24 2330
    19 22 Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad 18 20 18 1980
    12 23 Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk 21 19 17 1820
    NEW 24 Baby Sittin' Boogie - Buzz Clifford 25 16 1380
    NEW 25 Dream Girl - Mark Wynter 29 18 940
    18 26 Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde 27 19 680
    NEW 27 African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth 26 400
    26 28 Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men 20 330
    27 29 Pepe - Russ Conway 28 240
    23 30 A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury 25 180
    Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 24
    A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart 30 29 140
    First Taste Of Love - Ben E. King 27 120
    Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis 28 90
    Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 30 30

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post

    Yes, and the comments then correct it. I download the images so I have something to refer to and am adapting the titles and artist credits in the database to exactly what is on the title.

    Looking forward to seeing where the last 5 charting Lonnie Donegan singles make in the chart
    Yeah lets see where they land Lonnie lol, I'm looking forward to 1963 and charting The Beatles on The Ultimate Chart.

    Thanks Graham that's useful, saves me looking through lots of books to find the correct info when there is doubt.

    I'm working on November 1961 at present and as usual listen to some of the hits from that chart I'm not familiar with as I work. I've just heard Hayley Mills Let's Get Together and it is truly one of the worst records I have EVER heard, it's truly awful. When I look at some of the records that should have charted in 1961 and missed out then see that aberration in the top twenty there ain't no justice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gambo
    replied
    ^ Yes indeed chaps; I wish there was a site that provided consistent and correct historical UK release dates of singles/albums. 45cat and Discogs sometimes provide this detail but all-too-often it's just a year, not even a month let alone an exact day. Artists' Wiki pages sometimes come good, but as we know, reliability can be variable with this source. I find it particularly difficult to ascertain original release dates for digital product and very annoying when I can't track what seems to be the right date down. Being someone who always likes to catalogue things, especially my music, I maintain a record of my 2001-2020 singles in order of release date, but it's only as complete as it is because I've recorded the relevant date contemporaneously. If trying to find accurate release details years afterwards it can get tricky. I'd like to re-order my stuff from 1981-2000 similarly, but the farther one goes back, the harder it is to pinpoint the week of initial release. Anyway sorry - off-topic!

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post

    I always use the 45 Cat site for the correct titles and names. They are always taken from what's on the label itself and punters of the site always make corrections. I wish they were more up-to-date on release dates. Sometimes they have the release date the same date of when it first entered the chart! That really annoys me!
    Yes, and the comments then correct it. I download the images so I have something to refer to and am adapting the titles and artist credits in the database to exactly what is on the title.

    Looking forward to seeing where the last 5 charting Lonnie Donegan singles make in the chart

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Spellings and apostrophes are all over the place between earlier charts some say one thing some say another so forgive where I go with one and not another.
    I always use the 45 Cat site for the correct titles and names. They are always taken from what's on the label itself and punters of the site always make corrections. I wish they were more up-to-date on release dates. Sometimes they have the release date the same date of when it first entered the chart! That really annoys me!

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Although Josh MacRae was from Scotland his 'Messing About' record received high national exposure so I would have expected it to have sold nationally.
    And with 52 owns owns on 45 Cat I would say it did!

    The Allisons also made the top on the Real Chart for one week on March 5 (week ending 11 March)

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Good News for you Splodj. The Ultimate Chart is already compiled way ahead of what is posted and I can confirm Are You Sure will reach #1, after a struggle, but wait and see when

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Although Josh MacRae was from Scotland his 'Messing About' record received high national exposure so I would have expected it to have sold nationally.

    'Are You Sure' from The Allisons was the UK entry for Eurovision and marked a significant departure from the traditional Scottish ballad entered last year. I suppose it could be described as our first pop entry, and the phrasing reminds me of a Buddy Holly song. We didn't have a telly at the time, but I can remember a lot of people saying that the Allisons were overcome by the occasion and performed it too nervously. Although looking at them on YouTube they don't seem that bad.

    'Are You Sure' is another contentious number one. It was number one for 2 weeks in NME, Record Mirror and Disc, but not at all in Melody Maker and Record Retailer. Although RR is given an unusual alibi by MM, this looks like another unfair omission in the 'Official' list of chart toppers.
    Last edited by Splodj; Sun January 24, 2021, 13:52.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Another New Entry typifies RR way behind the others as usual as The Allisons debut in every other Top 20 but not even in RR Top 30.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 25th 1961.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 25th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 1 1 2 1 2 2 9760
    2 2 Sailor - Petula Clark 2 2 3 2 1 1 9590
    6 3 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 3 3 1 3 3 3 9360
    4 4 F.B.I. - The Shadows 4 4 4 5 4 6 8740
    3 5 Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee 5 5 7 4 5 7 8510
    12 6 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 6 6 5 6 9 8 8100
    8 7 Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith 8 7 6 8 8 5 7880
    5 8 You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette 7 8 11 7 6 4 7740
    14 9 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 10 9 10 9 10 10 7120
    7 10 Pepe - Duane Eddy 9 10 12 10 7 9 6990
    9 11 Sailor - Anne Shelton 11 15 15 11 12 14 5900
    13 12 Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk 13 13 14 15 13 11 5720
    29 13 (Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods 15 12 8 14 19 24 5580
    NEW 14 Are You Sure - The Allisons 14 14 9 12 17 5470
    21 15 Gather In The Mushrooms / Pepy's Diary - Benny Hill 16 18 13 13 15 22 5170
    11 16 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 12 11 17 11 12 4710
    22 17 New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds 21 20 18 16 3340
    16 18 Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde 21 16 16 13 2990
    28 19 Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad 20 20 19 20 25 2930
    23 20 Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee 18 15 17 19 2480
    10 21 Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 17 19 14 15 2290
    15 22 I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard 30 20 18 26 2090
    20 23 A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury 19 16 20 1980
    NEW 24 Wheels - The String-A-Longs 24 19 30 1310
    NEW 25 Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes 26 17 1240
    24 26 Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men 23 17 1060
    19 27 Pepe - Russ Conway 25 23 720
    18 28 Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 27 21 620
    17 29 Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis 29 18 550
    27 30 A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart 28 28 330
    Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 17
    Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs 27 120
    Sway - Bobby Rydell 29 60

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    It could be in Josh MacRae's case, he may have had big regional hits that didn't translate cross country. As for RR, they only sampled 30 shops, easy to miss a regional hit if there were no shops there reporting to RR. As for the other charts, Josh may have been just outside the NME Top 30, the MM Top 20, or the Disc Top 20. If we could find some more issues of RM for this time period, we could check those published weekly dealer charts and see if Josh was regional or national. This could easily apply to other artists as well...
    I do know that having worked with the dealer charts in RM for 54 and 55 that these differed enormously from store to store, even stores in the same locality were identifying different best sellers in their top tens. But, one thing was obvious from them , regional hits did consistently appear. Edinburgh and Glasgow for example always had Scottish records in their top tens that did not appear elsewhere and popular West End shows often reflected in the London store returns. So it is reasonable to believe that regional hits continued into the sixties.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Spellings and apostrophes are all over the place between earlier charts some say one thing some say another so forgive where I go with one and not another.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Depending on the range and amount of records there should be a stack of artists having hits on one chart and not the others. This is simply because we have been told that each chart didn't use the same record shops. If there are not, then that could be down to several things. One would be dealerships. Which is a bit like the car dealers where they only sell you one brand of car. In this case it's record companies. So an EMI dealer will only sell the labels under them. As you probably know each label put out the same song under different artists. So if you went into an EMI shop and asked for the title of a record you might be given the Columbia version of the song. The next will be that they are using the same areas to select the shops taking part. So you finish up with the same region trends, just on a smaller scale on the less shops used. Another cause could be the use of too many London area shops. This however can be an advantage, since London was a bit more trendier than other parts of the UK and even much later London often sold more records than the other parts of the country. Of course a bigger factor in having less acts on the charts, is down to the fan base. It's much easier for shops to sell Cliff and Elvis and the bigger names than say Laurence Welk!

    When you add up the shops "330," if there were 8,000 at that time in the UK, that's 7,670 that didn't get asked. So that should see a strong variation factor and removing from the figures Woolworth's Embassy label variant artists, you would have seen a stronger stack of artists than the "chart" samples. However if you then factor in the same things described above to stop the spread of less well known artists, you would I think end up with very few artists that were not known in all the above charts. In fact it might be worse for the less known artists, since the fan base effect might cause several well known acts to have records that missed out being hits. For example if you look at the discographies of several well known acts they have records that didn't make the chart. I recall for example Tommy Steele having hits that missed. And on 45 Cat lots have high owns too!
    Therefore some of the less well known acts, might have only had top 30 hits (using all shops) on regional sales, helped by people buying the record where the person lived. I suspect this to be true to the Scottish acts of which "Josh" was one of them.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    It could be in Josh MacRae's case, he may have had big regional hits that didn't translate cross country. As for RR, they only sampled 30 shops, easy to miss a regional hit if there were no shops there reporting to RR. As for the other charts, Josh may have been just outside the NME Top 30, the MM Top 20, or the Disc Top 20. If we could find some more issues of RM for this time period, we could check those published weekly dealer charts and see if Josh was regional or national. This could easily apply to other artists as well...

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Again Josh McCrae (Josh MacRae?) is charting for the third week only from the RM chart. According to the OCC website, Josh is never a top 50 artist on the Record Retailer chart and so far the only other chart to include one of his songs is MM. I know we mentioned this earlier but it is weird that an artist gets three top 20 hits for several weeks without (or barely) charting on any of the other charts...

    I know we may have a few artists that only appear on one chart for a week or so, but are there any other artists that are on one chart for several weeks without appearing on any others - particularly the Top 20 charts ?
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Sat January 23, 2021, 20:19.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 18th 1961.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 18th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    2 2 Sailor - Petula Clark 2 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    3 3 Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee 3 3 5 3 3 4 9090
    9 4 F.B.I. - The Shadows 4 4 4 4 4 6 8850
    5 5 You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette 5 4 6 5 5 3 8660
    14 6 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 6 6 3 6 6 8 8370
    4 7 Pepe - Duane Eddy 7 7 9 7 7 5 7860
    15 8 Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith 8 8 7 10 9 13 7230
    8 9 Sailor - Anne Shelton 11 11 10 8 12 12 6910
    6 10 Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 9 13 11 9 8 10 6840
    7 11 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 10 9 14 11 10 11 6630
    19 12 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 13 10 8 12 18 18 6190
    10 13 Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk 12 15 12 13 11 7 6120
    20 14 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 14 13 13 14 16 24 5350
    13 15 I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard 16 17 18 16 15 16 4800
    11 16 Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde 15 12 20 13 9 4290
    16 17 Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis 17 16 17 17 19 3800
    12 18 Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 18 18 19 14 15 3690
    17 19 Pepe - Russ Conway 19= 24 15 22 2590
    26 20 A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury 19= 26 18 20 2160
    NEW 21 Pepy's Diary/ Gather In The Mushrooms - Benny Hill 19 19 1320
    24 22 New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds 20 17 1300
    NEW 23 Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee 22 21 1020
    22 24 Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men 25 14 990
    25 25 Messing About On The River - Josh McCrae 15 960
    RE 26 First Taste Of Love - Ben E. King 16 29 960
    28 27 A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart 21 26 950
    NEW 28 Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad 27 20 870
    NEW 29 (Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods 17 840
    NEW 30 Calcutta - Lawrence Welk 19 720
    Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 19
    This Is It - Adam Faith 23
    Sway - Bobby Rydell 27 23 560
    Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs 29 28 250
    It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley 25 180
    Perfidia - The Ventures 27 120
    C'est Si Bon - Conway Twitty 30 80
    Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters 30 30

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