Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 18th 1961.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 18th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    2 2 Sailor - Petula Clark 2 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    3 3 Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee 3 3 5 3 3 4 9090
    9 4 F.B.I. - The Shadows 4 4 4 4 4 6 8850
    5 5 You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette 5 4 6 5 5 3 8660
    14 6 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 6 6 3 6 6 8 8370
    4 7 Pepe - Duane Eddy 7 7 9 7 7 5 7860
    15 8 Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith 8 8 7 10 9 13 7230
    8 9 Sailor - Anne Shelton 11 11 10 8 12 12 6910
    6 10 Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 9 13 11 9 8 10 6840
    7 11 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 10 9 14 11 10 11 6630
    19 12 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 13 10 8 12 18 18 6190
    10 13 Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk 12 15 12 13 11 7 6120
    20 14 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 14 13 13 14 16 24 5350
    13 15 I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard 16 17 18 16 15 16 4800
    11 16 Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde 15 12 20 13 9 4290
    16 17 Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis 17 16 17 17 19 3800
    12 18 Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 18 18 19 14 15 3690
    17 19 Pepe - Russ Conway 19= 24 15 22 2590
    26 20 A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury 19= 26 18 20 2160
    NEW 21 Pepy's Diary/ Gather In The Mushrooms - Benny Hill 19 19 1320
    24 22 New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds 20 17 1300
    NEW 23 Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee 22 21 1020
    22 24 Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men 25 14 990
    25 25 Messing About On The River - Josh McCrae 15 960
    RE 26 First Taste Of Love - Ben E. King 16 29 960
    28 27 A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart 21 26 950
    NEW 28 Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad 27 20 870
    NEW 29 (Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods 17 840
    NEW 30 Calcutta - Lawrence Welk 19 720
    Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 19
    This Is It - Adam Faith 23
    Sway - Bobby Rydell 27 23 560
    Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs 29 28 250
    It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley 25 180
    Perfidia - The Ventures 27 120
    C'est Si Bon - Conway Twitty 30 80
    Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters 30 30

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I thought Dale was dreadful on POTP. Sad because his morning show on Radio Trent had been legendary.

    Tony Blackburn always refuses to do voicetracking. If he can't do a show live he records it 'as live'.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    When Dale Winton presented POTP he just voiced his parts and then the music was added in later. That's what the once proud POTP ended up being reduced to.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Yes ...

    https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...4#post10523894

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Does anyone know the date when the BBC retro show countdowns changed from the BBC chart to the RR chart?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The point I was trying to make there was that the later 90's POTP broadcasts were not apparently that well researched or attention paid to detail and my hero 'Fluff' did make a few errors in his presentation unfortunately in these latter shows.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    That is a possibility Splodge. I was listening to it travelling in the car that Sunday and I knew from memory Acker was #1 on the BBC chart that week then Alan played Acker at #2 and Danny at #1. I thought it was just a programming error at the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    The other disadvantage in Alan's later 90's POTP shows was that on at least one occasion I can personally remember (although Alan still theoretically used the original BBC chart) he changed the number one position on broadcast and rundown from Acker Bilk to Danny Williams which topped only the RR chart.
    Wasn't the whole chart RR for that week? During the period when the BBC chart was supposed to be used there was at least one occasion when the RR chart was used instead. I suspect what happened is that Swern could not find the BBC chart for that week, or didn't have time to retrieve it or whatever.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Robin I think your assumption about Dave and Trevor correcting the BBC chart was a work in progress was correct actually. Reason for this is Dave himself once told me in one of his emails that, and I can't remember if it was the 2nd or 3rd version of their file, that he and Trevor had come into possession of a weekly listing of the BBC chart as written down by an avid POTP listener each week. This listing according to Dave highlighted errors which they subsequently amended in their later version of the BBC chart.

    This would seem to suggest that although Dave and Trevor had some original data on the BBC chart from the BBC files it was not complete and gaps were filled in by re-calculation and further amendment as new info came to light.

    So again, The Ultimate Chart to the rescue.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Dave and Trevor's BBC chart does make reference from time to time to Alan's chart run down not always referring to ties.

    I also have to say that this is where The Ultimate Chart comes into it's own, by refining the criteria for averaging the charts so that we don't get this propensity for messy ties that I think devalued the BBC chart time and time again.

    The other disadvantage in Alan's later 90's POTP shows was that on at least one occasion I can personally remember (although Alan still theoretically used the original BBC chart) he changed the number one position on broadcast and rundown from Acker Bilk to Danny Williams which topped only the RR chart. So even then the influence was being exerted to go with 'the official chart'.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    It looks to me like Phil Swern (retro-POTP producer) took the original BBC charts and then did his own tiebreaking.

    The most reliable source for which years were featured in retro-POTP shows is the BBC Genome site.

    There are more easily navigable lists of POTP shows in the threads here:
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/pops...ode-guide-f18/

    This German site has a selection of BBC chart show recordings:
    http://www.rias1.de/bbc.html

    Best of all is a Wiki site which has both a list of POTP shows and links to many mixcloud recordings:
    https://thechartshows.fandom.com/wik...ps_1989_-_1992
    (navigate from here to other pages)

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post

    However there is a recording (below) of a retro-POTP in 1992 revisiting the 1961 chart. At that time POTP was still using the BBC chart. As you can hear on the recording Johnny Tillotson was clearly "back at number two" as Alan Freeman says, and then confirmed as number two in the countdown.

    I suppose this is not definitive; it is possible there was a 'clean up' operation (I notice that Rubber Ball is untied at number 10) but highly unlikely.

    https://www.mixcloud.com/terry-obrie...eman-pt1-1961/
    Great find, Splodj !! I think this answers the question, for 28 Jan 1961 Tillotson was indeed #2, Elvis was sole #1, and the BBC file tie at #1 was a typo error.

    This brings up several points.

    1. I listened to the full Top 20 recap at the end of the sound file, and Alan Freeman quoted no ties whatsoever, even though the BBC file listed 5 ties. I think what happened was this: Alan (or Derek Chinnery) must have been using a tie breaker, and this BBC chart by Dave/Trevor was not actually found in the BBC library, they must have re-created this chart themselves by averaging the NME, MM, and Disc charts together. And Dave/Trevor must not have used a tie breaker as Alan/Derek had done. As I've mentioned in other threads, I have 4 versions of the D/T BBC file, and each one had occasional chart position tweaks to it. I can only guess, again, that D/T re-created charts they couldn't find at the BBC library, and then revised their info once other info was discovered, either chart write downs by fans or POTP tape recordings.

    In looking at the ties for this week, if the BBC did indeed use a tie breaker, then it might have been this, just a guess: if 2 records tied, then the record moving down the chart from last week would be placed at the lower position. If both records moved down from last week, then the higher record last week would get the higher position this week. If both records were moving up, then the higher record last week would get the higher position this week.

    2. I'm assuming that this Alan Freeman countdown for 28 Jan 1961 was a live airing in 1992, the BBC were not playing an old tape of the actual countdown. Correct me if I'm wrong, I just can't imagine the BBC saving tapes of old radio shows, but who knows. They threw out all those 60s episodes of Doctor Who...

    And I'm also assuming that Alan pulled out the old saved BBC chart for this date, and played the records and quoted the chart positions as they were in 1961. But who knows? Maybe there were ties on the original show, and Alan broke the ties for the 1992 re-do?

    3. Splodj, please tell us more about these retro countdowns included along with current shows. I think Alan mentioned he was doing 3 of them for this 1992 broadcast. Was this typical? Is there documentation somewhere of all retro POTP countdowns broadcast with current shows, so we can listen to them, and compare them against the D/T BBC file, and get some kind of verification for old BBC chart positions?

    Cheers n chips !!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 11th 1961.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 11th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    2 2 Sailor - Petula Clark 2 2 2 2 2 2 9570
    5 3 Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee 3 3 3 3 3 7 9120
    4 4 Pepe - Duane Eddy 4 5 4 5 4 5 8690
    7 5 You’re Sixteen - Johnny Burnette 5 4 5 6 5 4 8580
    3 6 Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 6 6 6 4 6 3 8560
    6 7 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 7 9 9 7 7 6 7670
    10 8 Sailor - Anne Shelton 8 8 7 8 12 10 7390
    NEW 9 F.B.I. - The Shadows 9 10 8 11 8 22 6680
    12 10 Buona Sera - Mr.Acker Bilk 11 11 11 10 13 9 6670
    11 11 Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde 10 7 10 15 10 11 6590
    9 12 Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 13 18 13 9 11 8 6230
    8 13 I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard 12 15 17 12 9 12 5880
    NEW 14 Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 14= 12 12 13 17 25 5520
    NEW 15 This Is It / Who Am I - Adam Faith 16= 14 15 19 15 28 4530
    14 16 Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis 14= 12 16 14 20 4350
    17 17 Pepe - Russ Conway 17 18 18 14 19 4050
    13 18 Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs 18 17 18 19 15 3630
    NEW 19 Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles 22 14 17 3280
    27 20 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 19 16 20 20 29 3130
    19 21 Sway - Bobby Rydell 21 20 17 1770
    21 22 Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men 23 18 16 1740
    15 23 It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley 20 24 16 18 1700
    30 24 New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds 20 23 1120
    26 25 Messing About On The River - Josh McCrae 16 900
    20 26 A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury 28 14 750
    23 27 North To Alaska - Johnny Horton 19 720
    28 28 A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart 24 27 680
    16 29 Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters 13 540
    18 30 Perfidia - The Ventures 29 21 460
    Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers 29
    Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee 26 400
    C'est Si Bon - Conway Twitty 27 320
    Little Girl - Marty Wilde 24 210
    Ginchy - Bert Weedon 29 160
    Doll House - The King Brothers 26 150
    Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren 30 30

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    Yeah, gotta be a typo. I checked to see if there were recordings or write downs out there of Pick of the Pops this week, couldn't find any.
    However there is a recording (below) of a retro-POTP in 1992 revisiting the 1961 chart. At that time POTP was still using the BBC chart. As you can hear on the recording Johnny Tillotson was clearly "back at number two" as Alan Freeman says, and then confirmed as number two in the countdown.

    I suppose this is not definitive; it is possible there was a 'clean up' operation (I notice that Rubber Ball is untied at number 10) but highly unlikely.

    https://www.mixcloud.com/terry-obrie...eman-pt1-1961/

    Leave a comment:


  • Leo
    replied
    I just want to say, as I just saw all the posts above, that the intention of the ukmix awards was never to make anyone feel bad or dissapointed. I really enjoy ukmix, it's a forum that came to my life in a very dificult time when I was going through very intense pain and sadness. And I've grown to enjoy a lot participating in different threads.

    I think it was back in 2017 when I had an idea to see which were popular threads across the forum, and thought that Replies and Views were two metrics that would show what was "popular". Popular never means good, although many times it is! So I started weekly charts. I must be honest; there were weeks I posted charts and got like 50 views and 0 comments, but it was something I was enjoying. Other times, many members expressed how they enjoyed the thread and I kept doing in.

    Then I decided to prepare some Year end charts, and just as Billboard Awards, to create that spin-off that are the awards. So the awards highlight "popular" and then we can choose the best amongst them. Are those the BEST ones? not sure, maybe yes or maybe not, but they are OUTSTANDING, that's why each category is "outstanding" and not "best".

    I was thinking back then to open up for nominations and make awards based on people's interest. But to be honest, there would be no enough participation, that's why I come up with nominations based on mathematical reasons highlighting what's "popular" based on views and replies. It's easier to make memebrs vote for awards than to get involved in all noms and then votes!

    That being said, this MrTibbs' thread is verypopular, gets a lot of interaction, and a good number of views and replies, and I love that. I came here time ago because I was doing the ukmix hot100 and found the name and got curious and I was thrilled about this idea. No, I didn't post, I just checked. So, if I was to decide MY personal favourte new thread, I would named this one as a finalist for sure. Showcase a lot of love for music, brings something fresh to the site, generates some discussion. Its a fantastic idea and very well crafted.

    That's all I wanted to say cause I feel bad you felt dissapointed because of any idea of mine. The idea of the awards is to celebrate ukmix. I never imagined those rankings and awards would make anyone feel bad.

    Hope you (and the rest of members that posted here about that nomination) understand those awards are celebratory but NEVER intend to be naming the best of anything. I hope this thread wins in the category it got nominated but, more than anything, that chart lovers discover this place and come and enjoy as much as many of you are doing.

    wish you well, Leo

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I've moved on. The disappointment was transient once I realised that you guys who follow this thread faithfully and get as much pleasure as I do from it and indeed encourage me onwards are actually more important to me on a day to day basis than strangers opinions who never visit the thread. Anyway, I have charts to compile, post, and engage with u guys here and share views and that's what it's really all about. So let's get to it

    Leave a comment:


  • ACA
    replied
    Brian, I can only assume you created this thread for the fun and love of the charts and music. And not for awards and recognition
    .

    Yes, Robin! I intended to express the same...! Brian, I guess you are nearly the same age as me, I turn 70 this year, and this span of life has taught me to discern between important and not so important things and behavior.
    Your site is so important to all of us who have followed the British charts for many decades, and it is important to you, because you have so much joy when you create them.

    I can understand your momentary disappointment, but I guess you're not making your site for people who don't understand what you're doing. Maybe they will some day.

    As I am busy with my own projects I don't have time to visit your site every day, but I do it as often as I can and have found it very inspirational. So thanks a lot for your work and keep on going!!

    Anders

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
    Neil Sedaka - Calender Girl has one of those musical video jukebox films for it made by Scopitone for it. But I have been looking at the video for it and the start intro screen says C1966. So he must have made it years later! Seems a bit odd?


    I bet Andy Stewart was top in Scotland all the time he was in the chart
    The wikipedia page for 'Calendar Girl' confirms the clip is from 1966. The corresponding wikipedia page for Scopitone explains that the amount of the machines installed in US bars and nightclubs had increased dramatically by 1966 and that in order to appeal to an adult American audience a number of acts, current and by then faded acts (including Neil Sedaka) were asked to record films. Many of the film clips made that year were made by the production company owned by Debbie Reynolds.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Calendar Girl is one of those tunes I can still actually recall at the time. Perfect pop.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Oh please perish the very idea that that horrendous patronising Andy Stewart record was ever top up here, I could never stand it. What an embarrassment it was and is to this nation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    Anyone remember "January Man", that weird Kevin Kline film from 1989?

    It had a serial killer committing murders based on the notes in the chorus of "Calendar Girl"...

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Neil Sedaka - Calender Girl has one of those musical video jukebox films for it made by Scopitone for it. But I have been looking at the video for it and the start intro screen says C1966. So he must have made it years later! Seems a bit odd?


    I bet Andy Stewart was top in Scotland all the time he was in the chart

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 4th 1961.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 4th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 1 1 1 9900
    7 2 Sailor - Petula Clark 3 2 2 3 3 4 9350
    2 3 Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 2 3 5 2 2 3 9280
    5 4 Pepe - Duane Eddy 4 4 3 5 4 2 8920
    12 5 Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee 5= 8 4 4 6 9 8340
    4 6 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 5= 5 7 6 7 5 8250
    9 7 You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette 7 6 6 10 5 6 7860
    3 8 I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard 8 7 11 7 8 8 7600
    6 9 Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 9 10 9 8 9 7 7350
    22 10 Sailor - Anne Shelton 10 10 8 9 13 19 6740
    15 11 Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde 11 9 10 11 15 11 6620
    10 12 Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk 12 12 18 12 12 10 5970
    13 13 Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs 13 15 12 14 11 18 5680
    18 14 Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis 15 14 13 17 14 12 5400
    14 15 It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley 16 13 19 20 16 13 4660
    8 16 Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters 14 19 15 10 14 4280
    20 17 Pepe - Russ Conway 18 20 14 13 22 4150
    11 18 Perfidia - The Ventures 17 17 16 17 17 3890
    17 19 Sway - Bobby Rydell 19 18 19 19 15 3440
    NEW 20 A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury 23 18 18 20 3050
    25 21 Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men 20 16 20 21 2050
    16 22 Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers 21 16 1250
    26 23 North To Alaska - Johnny Horton 15 23 1200
    21 24 Doll House - The King Brothers 22 24 930
    28 25 First Taste Of Love - Ben E. King 30 17 920
    NEW 26 Messing About On The River - Josh McCrae 16 900
    NEW 27 Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka 20 660
    27 28 A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart 25 26 630
    24 29 Little Girl - Marty Wilde 24 29 620
    29 30 New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds 26 400
    Chariot - Rhet Stoller 27 320
    C'est Si Bon - Conway Twitty 28 240
    Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren 25 180
    What To Do - Buddy Holly 29 160
    Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison 27 120
    Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows 28 90
    Rubber Ball - The Avons 30 30

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Brian, I can only assume you created this thread for the fun and love of the charts and music. And not for awards and recognition. There are relatively few of us geezers around anyway, most on UKMix are youngsters who are not preoccupied with the 50s and 60s. It's gonna be that way regardless of awards, and some of us didn't even know there were UKMix awards. Keep on keepin' on, and don't worry about unimportant stuff. This thread will probably outlive us all, ha, so you're doing it not only for us geezers, but also for the historical record. So many more views to come in the years ahead, I say march on...

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Yeah, gotta be a typo. I checked to see if there were recordings or write downs out there of Pick of the Pops this week, couldn't find any. So our only data comes from the Dave Taylor/Trevor Ager BBC file. I don't see how the BBC could have made a mistake with a 1-1-1 tying with a 2-2-2. Most likely it was a typo when Dave/Trevor typed up the charts, and accidentally put a '1' beside Tillotson instead of a '2'. An error to record in the error file, ha...

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X