The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Metalweb]

I've always felt the whole idea of splitting double A sides in a chart is illogical. After all, nobody can buy just one side of a record!

Many double A sides would sell well if buyers liked both sides and felt they were getting good value for their money.

I'm sure buyers wouldn't necessarily ask the shop for the side they preferred (I know I didn't!) but probably the side that was better known /getting more airplay....

[MrTibbs]

It is certainly unnecessary work for me NME with their split sides on the chart lol. Every week when split sides make the NME chart I need to assess how this impacts on the overall chart position and as a safe guard compare this with an average from the other papers in order to get the correct outcome for the Ultimate Chart.

[MrTibbs]

NEW Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard

Entered at no. 7 in RR but only no. 21 in RM.

Such a large gap. Again RM seems slow for new entrants. What was the problem?

I assume Brian you meant 7 in RM and 21 in RR.
You will see this pattern continue again and again and at times the difference is frankly ridiculous. When we shortly get to Elvis' 'Surrender' you will see it enter at #1 on NME, RM, Disc, #4 on MM, yet it enter away down at 27 on RR. There is no better example to demonstrate just how weak the RR chart is to be so out of step with all the others time after time.

[brian05]

NEW Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard

Entered at no. 7 in RR but only no. 21 in RM.

Such a large gap. Again RM seems slow for new entrants. What was the problem?

[Graham76man]

I don't understand why NME continued with charting double sided hits individually way past the time every other music paper stopped in the late fifties. This practise indicated the song took precedence over the record which was a throw back to The Sheet Music Chart. Given that the record chart really took over in 1955 from the song chart NME continued with individual songs way into the very late sixties.

All the more strange when NME prided itself on its 'first to have a record chart and still the first' slogan.

The only thing I can put it down to is idleness on the part of NME staff. Clearly the returns from the dealers would have some that listed the other side of the disc. But to sought these out across 80 shops would have taken time. So they didn't bother!
I'm just wondering if the other papers solved the problem by telling dealers to only list one side of a record, though I suspect they either ignored the other side returns or added them on.

On the dates of release thing, we do know that up to a certain point all records came out in the first or second week of the month. When the practice stopped is hard to pin down. As anyone come across anything in the music press - especially RR - about the introduction of Friday releasing?
If you search for records from 1961 and narrow it down to the month, with no day added on 45 Cat, nearly all the records have no day on them, though some do. Though clearly an entry to any chart will pin it down more. Unfortunately the problem of chart dating a record is more complex, since sometimes something can spark a record that has been issued ages ago into life!

The Cliff single does have a Friday 24 Feb date on it. None of the other new hits do. And with the chart date means that's just two days of sales for him!

[MrTibbs]

I don't understand why NME continued with charting double sided hits individually way past the time every other music paper stopped in the late fifties. This practise indicated the song took precedence over the record which was a throw back to The Sheet Music Chart. Given that the record chart really took over in 1955 from the song chart NME continued with individual songs way into the very late sixties.

All the more strange when NME prided itself on its 'first to have a record chart and still the first' slogan.

[MrTibbs]

So he obviously passed on Hayley Mills then ha ha

[Splodj]

I'm working on November 1961 at present and as usual listen to some of the hits from that chart I'm not familiar with ...

9th November 1961 was when Brian Epstein visited The Cavern to see the Beatles. There is light at the end of the tunnel!

[MrTibbs]

Mark Wynter's Dream Girl lost out to Are You Sure in the contest for Britain's entry to the 1961 Eurovision Song Contest. It was actually a decent song in it's own right which is more than can be said for our entries over recent years.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 4th 1961

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 4th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
3	1	Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers					1	1	1	1	2	1	9850
2	2	Sailor - Petula Clark					2	2	3	2	1	2	9560
14	3	Are You Sure - The Allisons					4	4	2	4	4	4	9030
1	4	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					3	5	5	3	3	3	8960
6	5	Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles					5	3	4	5	5	5	8800
4	6	F.B.I. - The Shadows					6	6	6	6	6	7	8220
7	7	Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith					7	7	9	7	7	6	7830
13	8	(Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods					10	9	8	9	10	10	7240
5	9	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee					8	10	10	8	8	11	7220
9	10	Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka					9	8	11	10	9	8	7140
NEW	11	Theme For A Dream - Cliff Richard					11	11	7	11	12	21	6490
8	12	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette					12	12	20	12	11	9	5930
24	13	Wheels - The String-A-Longs					13	14	12	13	14	16	5780
10	14	Pepe - Duane Eddy					14	16	17	16	15	13	5030
20	15	Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee					16	14	15	17	18	14	5020
15	16	Gather In The Mushrooms / Pepy's Diary - Benny Hill					15	23	18	14	13	12	4760
25	17	Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes					18	13	14	19		26	3930
11	18	Sailor - Anne Shelton					17	22		15	16	22	3500
16	19	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					19	20		18	17	15	3490
17	20	New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds					20	17		20		23	2570
NEW	21	Samantha - Kenny Ball						18	13			24	2330
19	22	Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad						18			20	18	1980
12	23	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk						21			19	17	1820
NEW	24	Baby Sittin' Boogie - Buzz Clifford						25	16				1380
NEW	25	Dream Girl - Mark Wynter						29	18				940
18	26	Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde						27				19	680
NEW	27	African Waltz - Johnny Dankworth						26					400
26	28	Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men										20	330
27	29	Pepe - Russ Conway						28					240
23	30	A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury										25	180
		Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers						24
		A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart						30				29	140
		First Taste Of Love - Ben E. King										27	120
		Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis										28	90
		Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson										30	30

[MrTibbs]

Yes, and the comments then correct it. I download the images so I have something to refer to and am adapting the titles and artist credits in the database to exactly what is on the title.

Looking forward to seeing where the last 5 charting Lonnie Donegan singles make in the chart

Yeah lets see where they land Lonnie lol, I'm looking forward to 1963 and charting The Beatles on The Ultimate Chart.

Thanks Graham that's useful, saves me looking through lots of books to find the correct info when there is doubt.

I'm working on November 1961 at present and as usual listen to some of the hits from that chart I'm not familiar with as I work. I've just heard Hayley Mills Let's Get Together and it is truly one of the worst records I have EVER heard, it's truly awful. When I look at some of the records that should have charted in 1961 and missed out then see that aberration in the top twenty there ain't no justice.

[Gambo]

^ Yes indeed chaps; I wish there was a site that provided consistent and correct historical UK release dates of singles/albums. 45cat and Discogs sometimes provide this detail but all-too-often it's just a year, not even a month let alone an exact day. Artists' Wiki pages sometimes come good, but as we know, reliability can be variable with this source. I find it particularly difficult to ascertain original release dates for digital product and very annoying when I can't track what seems to be the right date down. Being someone who always likes to catalogue things, especially my music, I maintain a record of my 2001-2020 singles in order of release date, but it's only as complete as it is because I've recorded the relevant date contemporaneously. If trying to find accurate release details years afterwards it can get tricky. I'd like to re-order my stuff from 1981-2000 similarly, but the farther one goes back, the harder it is to pinpoint the week of initial release. Anyway sorry - off-topic!

[kingofskiffle]

I always use the 45 Cat site for the correct titles and names. They are always taken from what's on the label itself and punters of the site always make corrections. I wish they were more up-to-date on release dates. Sometimes they have the release date the same date of when it first entered the chart! That really annoys me!

Yes, and the comments then correct it. I download the images so I have something to refer to and am adapting the titles and artist credits in the database to exactly what is on the title.

Looking forward to seeing where the last 5 charting Lonnie Donegan singles make in the chart

[Graham76man]

Spellings and apostrophes are all over the place between earlier charts some say one thing some say another so forgive where I go with one and not another.

I always use the 45 Cat site for the correct titles and names. They are always taken from what's on the label itself and punters of the site always make corrections. I wish they were more up-to-date on release dates. Sometimes they have the release date the same date of when it first entered the chart! That really annoys me!

[Graham76man]

Although Josh MacRae was from Scotland his 'Messing About' record received high national exposure so I would have expected it to have sold nationally.

And with 52 owns owns on 45 Cat I would say it did!

The Allisons also made the top on the Real Chart for one week on March 5 (week ending 11 March)

[MrTibbs]

Good News for you Splodj. The Ultimate Chart is already compiled way ahead of what is posted and I can confirm Are You Sure will reach #1, after a struggle, but wait and see when

[Splodj]

Although Josh MacRae was from Scotland his 'Messing About' record received high national exposure so I would have expected it to have sold nationally.

'Are You Sure' from The Allisons was the UK entry for Eurovision and marked a significant departure from the traditional Scottish ballad entered last year. I suppose it could be described as our first pop entry, and the phrasing reminds me of a Buddy Holly song. We didn't have a telly at the time, but I can remember a lot of people saying that the Allisons were overcome by the occasion and performed it too nervously. Although looking at them on YouTube they don't seem that bad.

'Are You Sure' is another contentious number one. It was number one for 2 weeks in NME, Record Mirror and Disc, but not at all in Melody Maker and Record Retailer. Although RR is given an unusual alibi by MM, this looks like another unfair omission in the 'Official' list of chart toppers.

[MrTibbs]

Another New Entry typifies RR way behind the others as usual as The Allisons debut in every other Top 20 but not even in RR Top 30.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 25th 1961.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 25th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					1	1	2	1	2	2	9760
2	2	Sailor - Petula Clark					2	2	3	2	1	1	9590
6	3	Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers					3	3	1	3	3	3	9360
4	4	F.B.I. - The Shadows					4	4	4	5	4	6	8740
3	5	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee					5	5	7	4	5	7	8510
12	6	Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles					6	6	5	6	9	8	8100
8	7	Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith					8	7	6	8	8	5	7880
5	8	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette					7	8	11	7	6	4	7740
14	9	Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka					10	9	10	9	10	10	7120
7	10	Pepe - Duane Eddy					9	10	12	10	7	9	6990
9	11	Sailor - Anne Shelton					11	15	15	11	12	14	5900
13	12	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk					13	13	14	15	13	11	5720
29	13	(Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods					15	12	8	14	19	24	5580
NEW	14	Are You Sure - The Allisons					14	14	9	12	17		5470
21	15	Gather In The Mushrooms / Pepy's Diary - Benny Hill					16	18	13	13	15	22	5170
11	16	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					12	11		17	11	12	4710
22	17	New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds						21	20	18		16	3340
16	18	Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde						21	16		16	13	2990
28	19	Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad					20	20		19	20	25	2930
23	20	Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee					18	15	17			19	2480
10	21	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					17	19			14	15	2290
15	22	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard						30		20	18	26	2090
20	23	A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury					19			16		20	1980
NEW	24	Wheels - The String-A-Longs						24	19			30	1310
NEW	25	Ja-Da - Johnny and The Hurricanes						26	17				1240
24	26	Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men						23				17	1060
19	27	Pepe - Russ Conway						25				23	720
18	28	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates						27				21	620
17	29	Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis						29				18	550
27	30	A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart						28				28	330
		Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers						17
		Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs										27	120
		Sway - Bobby Rydell										29	60

[MrTibbs]

It could be in Josh MacRae's case, he may have had big regional hits that didn't translate cross country. As for RR, they only sampled 30 shops, easy to miss a regional hit if there were no shops there reporting to RR. As for the other charts, Josh may have been just outside the NME Top 30, the MM Top 20, or the Disc Top 20. If we could find some more issues of RM for this time period, we could check those published weekly dealer charts and see if Josh was regional or national. This could easily apply to other artists as well...

I do know that having worked with the dealer charts in RM for 54 and 55 that these differed enormously from store to store, even stores in the same locality were identifying different best sellers in their top tens. But, one thing was obvious from them , regional hits did consistently appear. Edinburgh and Glasgow for example always had Scottish records in their top tens that did not appear elsewhere and popular West End shows often reflected in the London store returns. So it is reasonable to believe that regional hits continued into the sixties.

[MrTibbs]

Spellings and apostrophes are all over the place between earlier charts some say one thing some say another so forgive where I go with one and not another.

[Graham76man]

Depending on the range and amount of records there should be a stack of artists having hits on one chart and not the others. This is simply because we have been told that each chart didn't use the same record shops. If there are not, then that could be down to several things. One would be dealerships. Which is a bit like the car dealers where they only sell you one brand of car. In this case it's record companies. So an EMI dealer will only sell the labels under them. As you probably know each label put out the same song under different artists. So if you went into an EMI shop and asked for the title of a record you might be given the Columbia version of the song. The next will be that they are using the same areas to select the shops taking part. So you finish up with the same region trends, just on a smaller scale on the less shops used. Another cause could be the use of too many London area shops. This however can be an advantage, since London was a bit more trendier than other parts of the UK and even much later London often sold more records than the other parts of the country. Of course a bigger factor in having less acts on the charts, is down to the fan base. It's much easier for shops to sell Cliff and Elvis and the bigger names than say Laurence Welk!

When you add up the shops "330," if there were 8,000 at that time in the UK, that's 7,670 that didn't get asked. So that should see a strong variation factor and removing from the figures Woolworth's Embassy label variant artists, you would have seen a stronger stack of artists than the "chart" samples. However if you then factor in the same things described above to stop the spread of less well known artists, you would I think end up with very few artists that were not known in all the above charts. In fact it might be worse for the less known artists, since the fan base effect might cause several well known acts to have records that missed out being hits. For example if you look at the discographies of several well known acts they have records that didn't make the chart. I recall for example Tommy Steele having hits that missed. And on 45 Cat lots have high owns too!
Therefore some of the less well known acts, might have only had top 30 hits (using all shops) on regional sales, helped by people buying the record where the person lived. I suspect this to be true to the Scottish acts of which "Josh" was one of them.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

It could be in Josh MacRae's case, he may have had big regional hits that didn't translate cross country. As for RR, they only sampled 30 shops, easy to miss a regional hit if there were no shops there reporting to RR. As for the other charts, Josh may have been just outside the NME Top 30, the MM Top 20, or the Disc Top 20. If we could find some more issues of RM for this time period, we could check those published weekly dealer charts and see if Josh was regional or national. This could easily apply to other artists as well...

[braindeadpj]

Again Josh McCrae (Josh MacRae?) is charting for the third week only from the RM chart. According to the OCC website, Josh is never a top 50 artist on the Record Retailer chart and so far the only other chart to include one of his songs is MM. I know we mentioned this earlier but it is weird that an artist gets three top 20 hits for several weeks without (or barely) charting on any of the other charts...

I know we may have a few artists that only appear on one chart for a week or so, but are there any other artists that are on one chart for several weeks without appearing on any others - particularly the Top 20 charts ?

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 18th 1961.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 18th 1961								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	110	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Are You Lonesome Tonight - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	1	1	1	9900
2	2	Sailor - Petula Clark					2	2	2	2	2	2	9570
3	3	Rubber Ball - Bobby Vee					3	3	5	3	3	4	9090
9	4	F.B.I. - The Shadows					4	4	4	4	4	6	8850
5	5	You're Sixteen - Johnny Burnette					5	4	6	5	5	3	8660
14	6	Walk Right Back / Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers					6	6	3	6	6	8	8370
4	7	Pepe - Duane Eddy					7	7	9	7	7	5	7860
15	8	Who Am I / This Is It - Adam Faith					8	8	7	10	9	13	7230
8	9	Sailor - Anne Shelton					11	11	10	8	12	12	6910
6	10	Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson					9	13	11	9	8	10	6840
7	11	Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro					10	9	14	11	10	11	6630
19	12	Will You Love Me Tomorrow - The Shirelles					13	10	8	12	18	18	6190
10	13	Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk					12	15	12	13	11	7	6120
20	14	Calendar Girl - Neil Sedaka					14	13	13	14	16	24	5350
13	15	I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard					16	17	18	16	15	16	4800
11	16	Rubber Ball - Marty Wilde					15	12		20	13	9	4290
16	17	Many Tears Ago - Connie Francis					17	16		17	17	19	3800
12	18	Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					18	18		19	14	15	3690
17	19	Pepe - Russ Conway					19=	24		15		22	2590
26	20	A Thousand Stars - Billy Fury					19=	26		18		20	2160
NEW	21	Pepy's Diary/ Gather In The Mushrooms - Benny Hill							19		19		1320
24	22	New Orleans - The U. S. Bonds						20				17	1300
NEW	23	Let's Jump The Broomstick - Brenda Lee						22				21	1020
22	24	Piltdown Rides Again - The Piltdown Men						25				14	990
25	25	Messing About On The River - Josh McCrae							15				960
RE	26	First Taste Of Love - Ben E. King							16			29	960
28	27	A Scottish Soldier - Andy Stewart						21				26	950
NEW	28	Mystery Girl - Jess Conrad						27			20		870
NEW	29	(Ghost) Riders In The Sky - The Ramrods							17				840
NEW	30	Calcutta - Lawrence Welk							19				720
		Ebony Eyes - The Everly Brothers						19
		This Is It - Adam Faith						23
		Sway - Bobby Rydell						27				23	560
		Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs						29				28	250
		It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley										25	180
		Perfidia - The Ventures										27	120
		C'est Si Bon - Conway Twitty						30					80
		Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters										30	30