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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    I took the spelling from Record Mirror's spelling on their chart chart Graham so assumed it to be correct.
    Yeah it is a mystery that Josh had a few hits solely in the RM Top 20, but every chart at one time or another had strange anomalies.
    The papers of the period where not good at spelling. There were no spell checkers, back then! I remember a 60's Record Mirror changing the name of an artist so that a female became male. I don't think they ever corrected it! Probably because the printers used to charge extra for alterations to the "copy". Once the type was set it was cheaper to use the same thing over and over again.

    If you can try the name and title in 45 Cat. I now use that as the main source of all charts that I now produce. The chart makers often change the names of acts and titles of songs.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    On the subject of the BBC and their distaste of anything immoral I remember reading once that they banned Paper Doll by The Mills Brothers way back in 1943 because 'it encouraged soldiers to seek out other women when away from their wives'.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I took the spelling from Record Mirror's spelling on their chart chart Graham so assumed it to be correct.
    Yeah it is a mystery that Josh had a few hits solely in the RM Top 20, but every chart at one time or another had strange anomalies.

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
    I checked out the Josh MacRae (you are spelling his name wrong Brian) record on 45 Cat and the A side is Dear John. It doesn't surprise me that Wild Side Of Life wasn't the A side, since it would have banned by the BEEB straight away! If you listen to the lyrics it was about a bloke who discovers his wife to be a lesbian who goes to "gay" clubs! The Honky Tonk thing! As male homosexuality was still illegal in 1961, any mention of sex (never mind gay sex) was a no go for the BBC. Of course many years later in 1976 nobody at the BBC was bothered by that sort of thing so the Quo could get away with it!
    The single by the way has only five owns on 45 Cat, so Pye might have been on the fiddle or maybe it was the Scots shops that were selling it!
    I don't think you can assume "gay" means "homosexual" in a song this old - the word was used to mean "hedonistic/immoral" before it acquired it's present meaning....
    Still, the lyrics would have been controversial anyway as the term "Honky Tonk Angel" was a euphemism for a "loose woman" or prostitute - as Cliff Richard was horrified to discover when he recorded a single with that title in '75...

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    I checked out the Josh MacRae (you are spelling his name wrong Brian) record on 45 Cat and the A side is Dear John. It doesn't surprise me that Wild Side Of Life wasn't the A side, since it would have banned by the BEEB straight away! If you listen to the lyrics it was about a bloke who discovers his wife to be a lesbian who goes to "gay" clubs! The Honky Tonk thing! As male homosexuality was still illegal in 1961, any mention of sex (never mind gay sex) was a no go for the BBC. Of course many years later in 1976 nobody at the BBC was bothered by that sort of thing so the Quo could get away with it!
    The single by the way has only five owns on 45 Cat, so Pye might have been on the fiddle or maybe it was the Scots shops that were selling it!

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    That is quite strange. Is there any reason you can think of why it may have happened? With up to 60 shops providing chart data to RM I wouldn't have expected just one or two shops where he may have been very popular to have affected their chart so much.
    Since Josh McCrae was a Scottish folk singer, perhaps RM had a few more Scottish stores than the others? Perhaps more stores in a specific part of Scotland - i.e. wherever he was from? Any additional evidence of a Scottish bias to the artists charting in RM? Or perhaps a genre bias - more folksy?
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Thu January 14, 2021, 20:45.

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  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Strangely on that subject Robbie Josh McCrae had a number of singles that charted in the RM Top 20 yet never charted on any other chart.
    That is quite strange. Is there any reason you can think of why it may have happened? With up to 60 shops providing chart data to RM I wouldn't have expected just one or two shops where he may have been very popular to have affected their chart so much.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Strangely on that subject Robbie Josh McCrae had a number of singles that charted in the RM Top 20 yet never charted on any other chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    I notice that 'Wild Side Of Life' by Josh MacRae never charted on Record Retailer despite charting so high on Record Mirror. 45cat.com has it listed as a B side (to 'Dear John'). The first time I heard 'Wild Side Of Life' was back in 1976 when covered by Status Quo. They also released a single called 'Dear John' but it's not the same song as sung by Josh MacRae.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Much as I truly like and admire the late great Matt Monro I personally think Steve Lawrence's version of Portrait Of My Love was the superior version.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    Here we go into 1961 !​​

    There are 11 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 7th 1961.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 7th 1961 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    4 1 Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 1 1 1 1 2 3 9790
    2 2 I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard 2 3 3 2 1 1 9510
    3 3 Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters 3= 2 2 4 5 2 9200
    1 4 It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley 3= 4 4 3 4 6 8960
    5 5 Lonely Pup - Adam Faith 5 5 5 5 3 4 8710
    7 6 Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthong Newley 6 9 7 9 6 5 7650
    8 7 Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren 7 7 9 8 11 7 7490
    9 8 Perfidia - The Ventures 8 8 6 11 8 9 7350
    11 9 Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows 10 10 8 7 16 13 6990
    12 10 Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes 9 6 14 10 14 10 6810
    6 11 Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick 11= 21 11 6 7 8 6640
    13 12 Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 11= 12 9 12 10 11 6580
    20 13 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 14 13 12 16 12 12 5750
    21 14 Strawberry Blonde - Frank D'Rone 15 14 15 17 13 4760
    10 15 Gurney Slade - Max Harris 13 18 13 9 16 4570
    30 16 Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk 17= 16 20 15 20 30 4200
    17 17 Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison 17= 11 18 19 19 4060
    25 18 Sway - Bobby Rydell 16 16 14 15 3870
    19 19 Little Girl - Marty Wilde 19 14 17 18 29 2910
    16 20 As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey 20 20 21 2390
    24 21 Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers 20 23 20 17 18 2390
    22 22 Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette 27 18 23 1990
    NEW 23 Stay - Maurice Williams and The Zodiacs 19 19 24 1890
    29 24 Wild Side Of Life - Josh McCrae 13 1080
    23 25 My Heart Has A Mind Of Its Own - Connie Francis 24 15 1040
    15 26 Lively - Lonnie Donegan 25 14 990
    26 27 Ten Swingin' Bottles - Pete Chester and The Chesternuts 16 900
    NEW 28 Till - Tony Bennett 22 720
    RE 29 Black Stockings - The John Barry Seven 30 19 680
    14 30 My Love For You - Johnny Mathis 30 17 500
    G. I. Blues (LP) - Elvis Presley 28 240
    Chariot - Rhet Stoller 26 400
    Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra 20 330
    Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake 22 270
    It's You That I Love - Marion Ryan 28 240
    Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole 25 180
    Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison 26 150
    Milord - Edith Piaf 27 120
    Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway 28 90

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Josh McCrae amended from New to Re on 31st December

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    Josh McCrae Wild Side Of Love is a re-entry and not a new entry in the 31st December chart. It has only been charting on the RM chart the last 3 weeks and this there was no RM chart last week it fell off the chart.
    Oops. I will amend that brain. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Had you been living in New York this is what you would have been listening to on WABC ...
    https://musicradio77.com/Surveys/196...eynov2569.html

    The records above the dotted line (Top 14) were on high rotation and those below (Nos 15-20 and risers below) on low rotation.

    On this website it is interesting to see their charts back to 1960 and how they formed the basis of the A-lists and B-lists on what was arguably the leading Top 40 station.
    That is a great site and on that chart listed there are five future #1 records, J5, Supremes, Peter Paul and Mary, Beatles, and Steam, Na Na Na Na.......

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah brain we could make a good case for many ways to compile the chart. Its a case of u pays your money and make ur choice. I'm using what I think is a reliable, robust, and credible method but of course there are always others. Mine is just one example.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post

    This is indeed what I would argue.

    I agree that for the previous week this means that the average of the other charts should have been taken for Cliff then, when both sides did chart on NME, but it would only increase Cliff's score and not change his position.
    Yeah Splodj, I actually calculate the average of the other charts anyway if both sides of a record enter the Top 30. If it just increases the score without altering the position then it is ignored like you say.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Josh McCrae Wild Side Of Love is a re-entry and not a new entry in the 31st December chart. It has only been charting on the RM chart the last 3 weeks and this there was no RM chart last week it fell off the chart.
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Wed January 13, 2021, 21:41.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    you could argue that since the other side didn't chart this week perhaps it didn't influence it enough to make a difference.....
    This is indeed what I would argue.

    I agree that for the previous week this means that the average of the other charts should have been taken for Cliff then, when both sides did chart on NME, but it would only increase Cliff's score and not change his position.

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  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Since the NME position is the 'odd one out' for Cliff and you have previously modified the NME position by taking the average of the other positions when two sides of a record both charted, I thought it'd be interesting to see how this affected the positions. The average (excluding NME) for Elvis is 1.75, while Cliff is 1.25. Replacing the NME values with this gives Elvis 9650 and Cliff 9820.

    Also, the previous week Cliff's record showed 2 positions on the NME chart, but doesn't this week. It is possible that Cliff appears only at 4 instead of higher because the record is split, though you could argue that since the other side didn't chart this week perhaps it didn't influence it enough to make a difference....

    Of course MrTibbs you specify the criteria for no.1 in these situations and you make it clear each time how the decision was reached and so I agree with your decision, despite what I've written above.
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Wed January 13, 2021, 20:47.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Had you been living in New York this is what you would have been listening to on WABC ...
    https://musicradio77.com/Surveys/196...eynov2569.html

    The records above the dotted line (Top 14) were on high rotation and those below (Nos 15-20 and risers below) on low rotation.

    On this website it is interesting to see their charts back to 1960 and how they formed the basis of the A-lists and B-lists on what was arguably the leading Top 40 station.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Before I discovered RM carried the Billboard Top 50 of The Hot 100 I used to ask the person behind the counter in one of my local record shops to see the Record Retailer every week and look at the American Billboard chart inside the issue.

    When I discovered RM carried the chart I started buying RM late 1969, Fifth Dimension were #1 in the first issue I bought with Wedding Bell Blues.

    Ah ! Memories Memories

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Indeed. Billboard went through a period in the 60s with no UK chart at all in their 'Hits Of The World' section. We were a lot more interested in the USA chart than they were in the UK one.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I really don't think we need to add another source into the mix. I believe your suggestions offered on this topic condensed into the criteria I outlined above provide a robust solution that's both fair and credible.

    Splodj actually jolted my memory as I remember Dave Taylor mentioning to me way back that Cashbox used only a small sample to compile a chart for their magazine. It's also true that it doesn't have much prominence in the paper indicating it was maybe just a space filler in the International section.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    It has been claimed that Cashbox surveyed about 20 stores. I am a bit suspicious of this, as it seems a lot of trouble to go to for a tiny entry in their paper.

    Also, Cashbox switched to using RR in the late 60s even before BMRB arrived. I found this out when I looked to see what their chart said for the infamous 3-way split.

    If you want to use a third party arbiter I would have thought Music Echo and/or Top Pops would be better.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    membranemusic have you got any information on how Cashbox compiled their UK Top Twenty for it's magazine ?
    Yes I'd be interested to hear about that as well. I see the charts and we all have access to those (There is a Top 10 EP and Albums as well) and was unsure how it was compiled. And as a result what value it had./. (I.e. more or less than other charts).

    Leave a comment:

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