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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • membranemusic
    replied
    Hello
    Re the tie break for no. 1 records, I have a bold suggestion.
    From October 1959 right through to the 1970s the U.S. Cashbox magazine compiled a weekly UK chart. Because this was not published in the UK at all, it would not have been eligible for the BBC chart (or the Re-imagined chart). Furthermore it was always a week late once published in the USA.
    However if Cashbox compiled their UK chart with all the rigour that it was proud to display on compiling the USA domestic charts, it must have a retrospective value.
    If, for example, you need a tie break for a UK chart dated 15 Sep 1960, refer to the Cashbox UK chart dated 22 Sep 1960 (which usually matched the 15/9/60 UK chart week).
    Just an idea.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    So the Ultimate and BBC charts are in agreement on this matter, except of course for ‘Hand’. And the BBC implicitly admitted making a mistake with ‘Hand’ when they introduced a system to avoid the same thing (maverick prevents number one) happening again.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I am happy to confirm for you here and now that both Elvis records and the six Beatles records above ( although you already know some of these did from the charts already posted) will debut at #1 on The Ultimate chart.
    Are You Lonesome will fall short though making a debut at at 3.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    On the subject of entering at Number One pre-69 ...

    If you accept that ‘Dustman’ didn’t, it was achieved by only Elvis and the Beatles.

    ‘It’s Now Or Never’ was Presley’s biggest selling UK single, but even so it was quite an accomplishment to enter at number one in all 5 charts.

    His second biggest selling single ‘Jailhouse Rock’ had entered at number one in 2 of 3 charts.

    It will be interesting to see what happens shortly on the Ultimate with ‘Are You Lonesome Tonight’. As his third biggest selling single this really is the only other possibility for him to have a record come straight in at the top. It didn’t in the BBC chart, whereas the other two did.

    Then there are the 6 Beatles records from ‘Hand’ to ‘Help’ that achieved it, if you ignore RR. It is another tragedy of the 'Official' chart that by using RR it is claiming that none of these records entered at number one.

    So this may be the full list, with the exceptional chart position (if any) shown:

    Jailhouse Rock – MM 3
    It’s Now Or Never
    I Want To Hold Your Hand - RR 10
    Can't Buy Me Love - RR 8

    A Hard Day’s Night – RR 3
    I Feel Fine - RR 6
    Ticket To Ride - RR 11

    Help – RR 5

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I didn't have time yesterday but just to specify how # 1 will be calculated definitively going forward based on ALL your helpful advice to get a 'best' result if one record holds most points but another holds most places at #1 across the charts.

    This doesn't affect any charts posted thus far as all these already meet this criteria.

    1) Where there are 4 or 5 charts used and a record is #1 in ALL charts except one then the outlier will be discounted. Where 3 or less charts are used this rule won't apply as this smaller sample does not offer the same broad result.

    2) In all other cases 3 criteria will apply and the record meeting 2 out of the 3 criteria will be deemed to be the most competent to be awarded the #1 position.


    - Holding the #1 position on most charts

    - Holding most overall points

    - Holding the closest profile to #1 by adding the music paper chart positions together for example :

    1 1 2 2 3 = 9
    4 3 1 1 1 = 10

    So 9 points holds the closest profile. Where this ties too, best positions apply, eg, 1,1,3 will beat 1,2,2.

    This comprehensive methodology takes all your suggestions on board and uses them all to give a definitive #1.

    Remember though that this will only need to be applied in very few cases. Of all the charts thus compiled and posted there has only been 5 charts and 2 more yet to be posted to July 1961 where this computation has been employed.

    Thanks again for helping me with this and please when the time comes vote vote vote for our chart in the awards

    Last edited by MrTibbs; Wed January 13, 2021, 12:35.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Elvis is #1 as he has both most overall points and also has the closest profile to #1, 8 to Cliff's 9.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ​​

    There are 9 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 31st 1960.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 31st 1960 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 2 2 2 9710
    2 2 I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard 2 4 2 1 1 1 9600
    3 3 Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters 3 2 3 3 5 5 9160
    7 4 Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 4= 3 4 6 3 6 8760
    5 5 Lonely Pup - Adam Faith 4= 5 7 4 4 7 8560
    4 6 Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick 6 5 6 5 7 4 8450
    6 7 Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley 7 7 5 8 6 3 8100
    8 8 Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren 8 8 8 7 8 13 7550
    12 9 Perfidia - The Ventures 9 12 9 9 9 12 6930
    11 10 Gurney Slade - Max Harris 10 11 10 10 10 11 6820
    9 11 Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows 11 9 12 11 13 9 6660
    10 12 Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes 12 10 11 13 11 8 6550
    15 13 Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 13 14 12 12 14 4910
    18 14 My Love For You - Johnny Mathis 15 19 20 15 19 21 4280
    17 15 Lively - Lonnie Donegan 18= 18 18 16 15 3950
    16 16 As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey 14 13 17 17 3400
    13 17 Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison 16= 19 14 19 3190
    23 18 Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway 16= 23 18 15 27 2990
    22 19 Little Girl - Marty Wilde 18= 24 20 14 26 2770
    25 20 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 16 17 16 2490
    NEW 21 Strawberry Blonde - Frank D'Rone 20 15 13 2360
    14 22 Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette 30 19 20 18 2340
    19 23 My Heart Has A Mind Of Its Own - Connie Francis 21 18 10 2080
    27 24 Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers 25 16 24 1440
    NEW 25 Sway - Bobby Rydell 17 28 1210
    NEW 26 Ten Swingin' Bottles - Pete Chester and The Chesternuts 14 1020
    NEW 27 Pepe - Russ Conway 15 960
    NEW 28 It's You That I Love - Marion Ryan 28 20 900
    RE 29 Wild Side Of Life - Josh McCrae 16 900
    29 30 Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk 22 720
    G. I. Blues (LP) - Elvis Presley 27 320
    Time Will Tell - Ian Gregory 19 720
    Black Stockings - The John Barry Seven 17 700
    Milord - Edith Piaf 26 25 580
    Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra 20 330
    Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole 22 270
    Till - Tony Bennett 28 240
    Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake 23 240
    Georgia On My Mind - Ray Charles 29 60
    Kicking Up The Leaves - Mark Wynter 30 30
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Wed January 13, 2021, 22:36.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    You were just as important in this project Robin you devised the spreadsheets that are used and with the other guys provided support and advice throughout keeping it accurate and relevant.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Kudos and Congratulations, Brian! No question it's the best thread of the year. (I didn't even know UKMix gave out awards, ha.)
    Rock on...

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks kjell for that. Your continuing support along with same from the other guys keeps me morivated ind interested in this. I never knew there were awards thats why i was taken aback.

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    This is really the chart of charts that eventually will cover every week from the UK charts was broadened from two to three competing charts March 56 all the way till they finally based the charts on actual sales in 69. There’s no need to be surprised at the nomination, only that it came so quickly, which may be caused by the speed of Brian’s work. Congratulations!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ​​

    There are again12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 24th 1960.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 24th 1960 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 110 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 It's Now Or Never - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 2 1 8050
    3 2 I Love You / 'D' In Love - Cliff Richard 2 3 2 1 2 7800
    2 3 Save The Last Dance For Me - The Drifters 3 2 3 5 3 7540
    5 4 Little Donkey - Nina and Frederick 4= 7 4 4 6 6990
    10 5 Lonely Pup - Adam Faith 6 5 5 7 4 6950
    4 6 Strawberry Fair / A Boy Without A Girl - Anthony Newley 4= 6 6 3 7 6870
    8 7 Poetry In Motion - Johnny Tillotson 7 4 7 8 5 6730
    6 8 Goodness Gracious Me - Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren 8 8 8 6 8 6310
    9 9 Man Of Mystery / The Stranger - The Shadows* 11 11 10 11 9 5650
    7 10 Rocking Goose - Johnny and The Hurricanes 9 9 12 9 10 5580
    11 11 Gurney Slade - Max Harris 10 12 9 10 12 5560
    14 12 Perfidia - The Ventures 12 10 14 12 15 4980
    16 13 Blue Angel / Today's Teardrops - Roy Orbison 16= 20 11 19 11 4280
    13 14 Dreamin' - Johnny Burnette 13 18 13 14 23 4110
    20 15 Counting Teardrops - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 14= 17 19 13 20 3670
    17 16 As Long As He Needs Me - Shirley Bassey 16= 14 15 14 3630
    19 17 Lively - Lonnie Donegan 19= 20 17 20 17 3390
    18 18 My Love For You - Johnny Mathis 18 15 18 16 3160
    12 19 My Heart Has A Mind Of It's Own - Connie Francis 14= 13 15 13 2780
    15 20 Ol' MacDonald - Frank Sinatra 22 16 19 2730
    24 21 Milord - Edith Piaf 27 20 24 1740
    30 22 Little Girl - Marty Wilde 19= 19 17 1660
    27 23 Even More Party Pops - Russ Conway 16 1200
    21 24 Georgia On My Mind - Ray Charles 16 28 840
    NEW 25 Portrait Of My Love - Matt Monro 25 22 750
    NEW 26 Black Stockings - The John Barry Seven 18 650
    NEW 27 Like Strangers - The Everly Brothers 24 30 590
    28 28 Mr. Custer - Charlie Drake 18 390
    29 29 Buona Sera - Mr. Acker Bilk 27 320
    22 30 Just As Much As Ever - Nat King Cole 21 300
    The Stranger - The Shadows 22
    D' In Love - Cliff Richard 26
    G. I. Blues (LP) - Elvis Presley 29 160
    Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison 25 180
    Kommotion - Duane Eddy 26 150
    Sway - Bobby Rydell 30 29 140
    Virgin Mary - Lonnie Donegan 27 120
    Till - Tony Bennett 30 80
    Ten Swingin' Bottles- Pete Chester and The Consulates 30 80
    RM did not compile a chart for this week.
    0
    * This week the split sides would have affected NME's 0
    averaged chart position so an average was taken 0
    from the other 3 charts giving an average of 10 0
    to The Shadows and awarded to NME to give a 0
    more representative chart position for both sides 0
    together. 0
    0

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here's what the nomination says.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined ( MrTibbs )

    Another brand new entry in this category, its also MrTibbs frst nomination! If you are a chart lover and Retro fan, god this thread is EVERYTHING! With barely more than 7 months it already has almost 1400 replies and +36000 views! It definetly should have more!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Wow Wow Wow.

    See above guys, this thread has been nominated in the Outstanding General Charts Thread in the UK MIX 2020 awards. I'm amazed and ecstatic at its recognition and inclusion.
    I've always said though this is our thread not my thread, you guys keep it alive through your interest, input, comments and constant visits.

    Please watch out for the start of voting and see how we do

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks to all you guys above for your replies. I can now use all your suggestions as the need arises.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Looks good to me Brian. And if you had also done the hierarchy method, and the 'throw out the outlier' method, you would have gotten the same results that you got above in each case. So that's even more confirmation.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leo
    replied
    NOMINEE for the 3rd Annual UKMIX Hot100 AWARDS as


    Voting will start once all categories are announced! Stay tuned!

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I think everything is fine as long as you explain your rationale at the bottom of each chart involved. The reader can then think either "Yup, fine with me" or "I would have preferred it another way" and mentally rearrange accordingly.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Each point you guys make above is valid. Every one. I also think each one of you is correct in your way of thinking lol.

    Thankfully this situation is relatively rare just 7 occasions in 9 chart years. I think taking all your comments above on board that each occasion needs judged on its own merit rather than applying a one size fits all. This in effect means using the most appropriate criteria, from the valid solutions you all highlight above, to each individual occasion.

    So for example 1964 and 65 are easy. 4 charts. NME, MM, and Disc all place The Beatles at #1 only RR is out of step. It's a no brainer, The Beatles are #1.

    In 1967, July 15th, Procol are #1 on Disc and RR , Monkees on MM, Beatles on NME. So on this occasion it's a 3 way split for #1. Monkees though are top on points 18580, v, 18400 for Procol, and 17965 for Beatles so The Beatles are out of the running anyway lowest points and topping 1 chart. So it's between Procol and Monkees. It's topping 2 charts for Procol v most points for Monkees.
    So on this occasion if I take and add the chart positions for each I get 3 2 1 1 for Procol =7 , 2 1 3 3 for Monkees = 9. So Procol has the closest profile and therefore #1.
    The Beatles incidentally were 1 3 6 2 = 12 so well out of contention like I said.

    So, finally, thus far for you, 1968, November 16th. Only 3 charts by now . Hugo is #1 on NME and RR, and Barry Ryan on MM but Barry has 15680 points to Hugo's 15550.
    So Hugo positions are 1 3 1 = 5 to Barry's 2 1 3 = 6, so again Hugo is closer in profile so #1.

    Do the above examples in keeping with your thoughts above seem individually robust and credible to settle this ?

    If so I will apply this individual logic going forward. The above results also leave the existing # 1 records already posted intact so no changes needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Just an extra thought, maybe related, maybe not: just let ties stand as ties. There is nothing wrong with a tie... Rock on...

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    Or just a flat BBC average?
    The 'flat BBC average' was abandoned after RR askewness prevented 'Hand' entering the BBC chart at number one. Thereafter they adopted an odd-one-out rule for number ones which, I believe, served them well.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    The things to consider are, how many methods are there, and what are the pluses and minuses of each method?

    Strictly going by the ultimate weighted average sounds fair, but Record Retailer is "so out of kilter".

    Being at #1 on the most charts sounds fair too, but what are the + and - ?

    How about a hierarchy 1-1-2-5-5 vs. a 1-1-3-4-4 ?

    How about a "throw out the outlier position" for each record?

    Or just a flat BBC average?

    Or, come up with the 5 best methods, and see which record turns out better on the most of them? 3 out of 5, or 4 out of 5, etc...

    Interesting, fascinating...
    Last edited by RokinRobinOfLocksley; Mon January 11, 2021, 20:12.

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    The question of method is related to whether the ruling principle should be to get the best Average of the existing charts or the statistically right number one. Before I learned how the charts were compiled I agreed with using the average of the existing charts of the period. After having read Alan’s article twice and in light of my one and a half year exam in statistics I now know that the main objective should be to get the right number one and that is done by using the points as the decider. In the long run that will also make it easier to change wind between otherwise ties.
    Whatever decision you make Brian, I’ll keep on following this thread. Not only your average chart but also your disclosing the differences between the old charts by including all the main charts of the times make very interesting reading and widens our understanding of the old charts. This is the thread I follow most closely.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    How about going by points except when only one chart does not have a record at number one that all the other ones do?

    In other words, only overriding the points when one maverick chart (*cough* Record Retailer) is so out of kilter that it is preventing that record from being number one.

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    ".. OR should it be whichever tops most charts that week as I am using at present."

    Stick to present method.

    Leave a comment:

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