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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! I've been working again today but here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 20th February 1965.

    Was the Radio London chart based on airplay ?


    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 20th 1965 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    4 1 I'll Never Find Another You - The Seekers 1 1 1 1 2 18965
    1 2 Tired Of Waiting For You - The Kinks 2 2 2 2 1 18500
    2 3 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 3 3 3 3 3 17780
    3 4 Keep Searchin' - Del Shannon 5 5 4 5 4 16845
    9 5 The Game Of Love - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders 4 4 5 4 5 16810
    10 6 Don't Let Me Me Misunderstood - The Animals 6 6 6 6 6 15875
    7 7 The Special Years - Val Doonican 7 7 7 7 7 15240
    13 8 Funny How Love Can Be - The Ivy League 8 8 8 8 9 14520
    6 9 Come Tomorrow - Manfred Mann 9 11 9 9 8 13655
    16 10 It Hurts So Much - Jim Reeves 10 9 10 10 11 13450
    5 11 Go Now - The Moody Blues 11 12 11 11 10 12585
    8 12 Cast Your Fate To The Wind - Sounds Orchestral 12 14 12 12 12 11665
    30 13 Goodnight - Roy Orbison 13 13 15 14 17 10490
    24 14 It's Not Unusual - Tom Jones 14 10 18 13 19 10270
    14 15 Leader Of The Pack - The Shangri-Las 15 18 14 15 14 9895
    21 16 Yes I Will - The Hollies 16 16 16 17 15 9510
    11 17 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - Cilla Black 17 20 13 19 13 9430
    12 18 Baby Please Don't Go - Them 18 19 17 18 16 8475
    NEW 19 I Must Be Seeing Things - Gene Pitney 19 15 19 16 24 8295
    28 20 Mary Anne - The Shadows 20 17 23 20 25 6410
    15 21 Terry - Twinkle 23= 26 20 25 22 5115
    19 22 Ferry Cross The Mersey - Gerry and The Pacemakers 21 27 22 22 18 5055
    NEW 23 Come And Stay With Me - Marianne Faithfull 23= 21 25 21 26 4925
    20 24 I'm Lost Without You - Billy Fury 22 24 24 23 20 4885
    17 25 The Three Bells - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 25 29 21 28 23 3880
    NEW 26 Silhouettes - Herman's Hermits 27 22 27 24 3500
    18 27 Yeh Yeh - Georgie Fame and The Blue Flames 26 28 28 26 21 2700
    23 28 What In The World's Come Over You - The Rockin' Berries 28 30 26 28 1705
    NEW 29 I'll Stop At Nothing - Sandie Shaw 29 23 1600
    NEW 30 Honey I Need - The Pretty Things 30= 25 1200
    Stop Feeling Sorry For Yourself - Adam Faith 30= 29 27 900
    Dance Dance Dance - The Beach Boys 27 340
    A Windmill On Old Amsterdam - Ronnie Hilton 30 30 335
    Golden Lights - Twinkle 30 200
    Your Hurtin' Kinda Love - Dusty Springfield 29 200
    Somewhere - P J Proby 29 170
    Paper Tiger - Sue Thompson 30 100

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    There's no chance of the Caroline charts till September 1965.
    But the Radio London is good
    Here's the chart after Mr Tibs last chart you can compare with the next one.
    Sunday 14th Feb 1965
    2 1 Tired Of Waiting For You Kinks
    7 2 I'll Never Find Another You Seekers
    4 3 Keep Searchin' (We'll Follow The Sun) Del Shannon
    9 4 The Game Of Love Wayne Fontana & the Mindbenders
    23 5 Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood Animals
    8 6 The Special Years Val Doonican
    1 7 Come Tomorrow Manfred Mann
    16 8 Funny How Love Can Be Ivy League
    29 9 It's Not Unusual Tom Jones
    24 10 It Hurts So Much Jim Reeves
    3 11 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' Righteous Brothers
    27 12 Stop Feeling Sorry For Yourself Adam Faith
    6 13 Baby Please Don't Go Them
    18 14 Yes I Will Hollies
    14 15 Come See About Me Supremes
    37 16 I Must Be Seeing Things Gene Pitney
    10 17 Go Now! Moody Blues
    – 18 Your Hurtin' Kinda Love Dusty Springfield
    – 19 Goodnight Roy Orbison
    – 20 Mary Anne Shadows
    28 21 The Name Game Shirley Ellis
    40 22 Hawaii Tattoo Waikikis
    31 23 The 'In' Crowd Dobie Gray
    – 24 Silhouettes Herman's Hermits
    5 25 Leader Of The Pack Shangri-Las
    – 26 I'll Stop At Nothing Sandie Shaw
    21 27 Paper Tiger Sue Thompson
    35 28 Let The Sunshine In Peddlers / Presidents
    – 29 I Cry Alone Jackie Lee
    12 30 Getting Mighty Crowded Betty Everett
    – 31 Concrete And Clay Unit 4 + 2
    13 32 Promised Land Chuck Berry
    38 33 Last Time You'll Walk Out On Me Mike Hurst
    – 34 Come And Stay With Me Marianne Faithfull
    25 35 What In The World's Come Over You Rockin' Berries
    36 36 Shake Sam Cooke
    – 37 Tell Her No Zombies
    – 38 Diggin' My Potatoes Heinz
    – 39 Can't You Hear My Heartbeat Goldie & the Gingerbreads
    – 40 Hold What You've Got Joe Tex


    Leave a comment:


  • membranemusic
    replied
    Hello
    MrTibbs keep on keeping on – this is fascinating.

    A suggestion, as we are now in the pirate radio era: can you list either the Radio London or Radio Caroline chart positions for the relevant chart week? – not, I hasten to add, to include within the calculation of the Re-Imagined Chart, but by way of comparison. By spring of ’65, I contend they were possibly influencing the public’s buying habits, and speeding up the sales chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by setg1 View Post
    The only Ruby and the Romantics song I could find appearing on the Record Retailer chart was "Our Day Will Come".

    https://www.officialcharts.com/artis...the-romantics/

    Your post mentioned another one of their songs, which was also the record I was talking about. According to the OCC database, that one only charted in later versions by the Marvelettes and the Flying Pickets.



    http://www.45cat.com/record/hlr9935

    It does have 10 owners on 45cat (more than on Discogs), though it's impossible to say exactly which version they own (since 45cat combines the promo single and the commercially released one into the same listing).

    Edit: MrTibbs : That's right, I hadn't seen your post before I sent my reply.
    Your both right I was getting the record mixed up.
    The Real Chart doesn't deal in labels, so any imports are included in the sales. That's why there's a lot re-entries in it. I don't always know why a record with these modest levels turn into big hits on the Chart. It's often down to them being featured on a TV show. Sometimes it's being on the US charts. Nearly all the Music Papers carried some part of one of them. I suspect this one might have been on the Pirate charts and airplay. I don't know for certain, since the early charts for 1964 are missing.
    The only time I know that any record is an import is when it never got released in the UK. The earliest one of them is Frankie Laine - Mule Train in 1950, which even spent a single week at the the top. But it spent only a short time in the top 40.
    Though myself am guilty of placing a lot of strength in the amount of "owns" on 45 Cat and the other site. Both have flaws. You will find "official" million sellers with less than 100 owns. Even in the 1965 sample (I did) one record reached number 2 on just 55 owns.
    In fact I will post the results here of the 1965 most owns. Each red number is a RR chart hit. And the 50 is where each one reached. Ignore the first numbers in 2 column, 4th column numbers are my estimates of owns needed to reach that position. The fifth has all the records and owns.
    1965 Most owned for chart hits.jpg

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 13th February 1965.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 13th 1965 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    2 1 Tired Of Waiting For You - The Kinks 1 1 1 1 2 18965
    1 2 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 2 2 2 2 1 18500
    5 3 Keep Searchin' - Del Shannon 3 4 3 4 3 17480
    11 4 I'll Never Find Another You - The Seekers 4 3 4 3 5 17360
    3 5 Go Now - The Moody Blues 5 5 5 5 4 16595
    4 6 Come Tomorrow - Manfred Mann 6 8 6 6 6 15475
    12 7 The Special Years - Val Doonican 7 7 7 7 7 15240
    7 8 Cast Your Fate To The Wind - Sounds Orchestral 8 10 8 8 8 14205
    20 9 The Game Of Love - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders 9 6 9 9 14 14145
    24 10 Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood - The Animals 11 8 12 11 13 12880
    6 11 You've Lost that Lovin' Feelin' - Cilla Black 10 13 11 10 9 12570
    8 12 Baby Please Don't Go - Them 12 14 10 12 10 12335
    26 13 Funny How Love Can Be - The Ivy League 13= 11 15 13 19 10820
    17 14 Leader Of The Pack - The Shangri-Las 13= 15 14 18 11 10450
    9 15 Terry - Twinkle 15 17 13 15 17 10090
    28 16 It Hurts So Much - Jim Reeves 16 12 20 14 20 9185
    15 17 The Three Bells - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 19 18 16 17 21 8600
    10 18 Yeh Yeh - Georgie Fame and The Blue Flames 17 20 17 16 15 8560
    13 19 Ferry Cross The Mersey - Gerry and The Pacemakers 18 19 18 19 12 8465
    16 20 I'm Lost Without You - Billy Fury 20 22 19 20 16 7175
    23 21 Yes I Will - The Hollies 22 16 22 22 22 6915
    14 22 Girl Don't Come - Sandie Shaw 21 23 21 21 18 6205
    22 23 What In The World's Come Over You - The Rockin' Berries 23 23 23 28 23 4580
    NEW 24 It's Not Unusual - Tom Jones 25 21 23 2800
    19 25 I Feel Fine - The Beatles 24 25 24 25 2710
    18 26 Somewhere - P J Proby 27 24 30 24 2445
    RE 27 Dance Dance Dance - The Beach Boys 26 28 28 26 26 2275
    NEW 28 Mary Anne - The Shadows 28 25 25 1800
    27 29 Getting Mighty Crowded - Betty Everett 29= 26 29 29 1700
    NEW 30 Goodnight - Roy Orbison 29= 27 30 27 1450
    Downtown - Petula Clark 26 29 1420
    Walk Tall - Val Doonican 27 28 1255
    Come See About Me - The Supremes 30 27 540
    I Must Be Seeing Things - Gene Pitney 29 400
    I Could Easily Fall - Cliff Richard 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • setg1
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post

    You do need to check your facts before assuming something. Ruby was in the Record Retailer Chart and made no 38.
    On 45 Cat the record has 61 owns.
    The only Ruby and the Romantics song I could find appearing on the Record Retailer chart was "Our Day Will Come".

    https://www.officialcharts.com/artis...the-romantics/

    Your post mentioned another one of their songs, which was also the record I was talking about. According to the OCC database, that one only charted in later versions by the Marvelettes and the Flying Pickets.

    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
    For example in the last Real Chart for December 1964, at number 3 is Ruby & The Romantics - When you're young and in love. And I wait in an anticipation to see if will appear in this list.
    http://www.45cat.com/record/hlr9935

    It does have 10 owners on 45cat (more than on Discogs), though it's impossible to say exactly which version they own (since 45cat combines the promo single and the commercially released one into the same listing).

    Edit: MrTibbs : That's right, I hadn't seen your post before I sent my reply.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Graham I think you got mixed up with the title there, the No 38 position in RR refers to Our Day Will Come in 1963, but I think in your earlier post you were referring to When You're Young And In Love in December 1964 and I don't see this in either RR or MM positions 31 - 50. I believe that that was the record that Setj was referring to in his comment above re sales.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Most of these collecting sites will show more owns for promo copies as these only went on to radio stations etc and were not for sale to the public. Therefore making them more valuable.

  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by setg1 View Post


    This makes me wonder where the supposed sales for Ruby and the Romantics (not appearing on any of the four different UK charts) came from... On Discogs, just three people own a copy of the UK release – even the promo single of the same song is owned by more users! I know one can't conclude exactly how much a record sold based on a small number of copies listed on a website created decades later, but three is a ridiculously low number for a supposed top ten hit. I can even find non-hit records from smaller countries with more owners, such as a "Pretty Flamingo" cover from Finland (it didn't reach the top 40 there) that has seven owners, more than double that of Ruby and the Romantics!

    Barring additional evidence to the contrary (maybe strong import sales?), I see no reason to believe the Ruby and the Romantics single was a hit at all in the UK.
    You do need to check your facts before assuming something. Ruby was in the Record Retailer Chart and made no 38.
    On 45 Cat the record has 61 owns.
    I did at one time do a full list of all the new release singles on 45 Cat for 1965 in the UK. I also did a check list of what a record got in the top 50 and the number of owns.
    I will show you the typical averages for the top 50 slots and about what the ownership levels were.
    This is for 1965 only.
    50 to 47 - 14
    46 to 41 - 19
    40 to 28 - 20
    27 to 24 - 21-28
    23 to 21 - 29
    20 to 18 - 30-36
    17 & 16 - 37
    15 - 39
    14 - 42
    13 - 47
    12 & 11 - 53
    10 to 7 - 54-56
    6 - 58
    5 - 59 to 66
    4 - 67
    3 - 70
    2 - 74
    1 - Lowest 68. Highest 140.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 6th February 1965.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 6th 1965 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    2 1 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    5 2 Tired Of Waiting For You - The Kinks 2 2 2 2 2 18415
    1 3 Go Now - The Moody Blues 3 3 3 3 3 17780
    4 4 Come Tomorrow - Manfred Mann 4 5 4 4 4 16945
    11 5 Keep Searchin' - Del Shannon 5 4 6 5 6 16375
    3 6 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - Cilla Black 6 7 5 6 5 16010
    7 7 Cast Your Fate To The Wind - Sounds Orchestral 7 6 7 7 7 15440
    12 8 Baby Please Don't Go - Them 10 10 8 11 11 13650
    8 9 Terry - Twinkle 8 11 9 8 10 13585
    6 10 Yeh Yeh - Georgie Fame and The Blue Flames 9 12 10 9 8 13205
    21 11 I'll Never Find Another You - The Seekers 13 9 12 14 14 12295
    17 12 The Special Years - Val Doonican 11 8 14 12 13 12280
    10 13 Ferry Cross The Mersey - Gerry and The Pacemakers 12 13 13 10 12 11815
    9 14 Girl Don't Come - Sandie Shaw 14 16 11 13 9 11670
    16 15 The Three Bells - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 15 17 17 15 17 9090
    19 16 I'm Lost Without You - Billy Fury 16 20 15 16 16 8975
    18 17 Leader Of The Pack - The Shangri-Las 17 15 18 17 18 8955
    14 18 Somewhere - P J Proby 18 27 16 21 15 6910
    13 19 I Feel Fine - The Beatles 19 23 21 18 19 6420
    NEW 20 The Game Of Love - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders 20 18 24 19 27 5890
    15 21 Downtown - Petula Clark 21= 26 19 26 20 5435
    24 22 What In The World's Come Over You - The Rockin' Berries 21= 21 23 24 23 5380
    NEW 23 Yes I Will - The Hollies 23 22 22 25 25 5160
    NEW 24 Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood - The Animals 24 14 20 4500
    20 25 Walk Tall - Val Doonican 25 20 27 22 3915
    NEW 26 Funny How Love Can Be - The Ivy League 26 19 23 3200
    25 27 Getting Mighty Crowded - Betty Everett 27= 25 25 28 30 3085
    NEW 28 It Hurts So Much - Jim Reeves 27= 24 22 2300
    22 29 I Could Easily Fall - Cliff Richard 29 27 30 21 1950
    NEW 30 Come See About Me - The Supremes 28 28 29 29 1720
    No Arms Can Ever Hold You - The Bachelors 26 28 1505
    Dance Dance Dance - The Beach Boys 30 29 29 24 1495
    Promised Land - Chuck Berry 30 26 675
    Tell Her No - The Zombies 30 200


    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    All the great female fifties singers did their apprenticeships with the big bands and had voice training and coaching. By the sixties singers male and female were just literally singing as best they knew and could without any training. I think Cilla Black's voice was powerful but totally untrained so just let fly. Having said that I think both Anyone and World were stunning singles.

    Today's 'talent' need auto tune to even sing at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    I prefer the musical arrangement of Anyone Who Had A Heart on Cilla's version, but find Cilla's voice too grating in the loud bits.

    Similarly with You're My World. I reckon Martin did a better arrangement than the Italian original, but when she gets to "With your hand, resting in mine .. " I start to cringe.
    There's entire threads out there on the internet about whether or not Cilla Black could sing! I've just read one posted at Digital Spy in 2010 titled "Who told Cilla Black she could sing?" which is quite hilarious. The thread starter begins the post with "My mum had Gold on her car earlier, and this song came on, "You are My World" or something like that and dear god the voice sounded like a cat being strangled."

    I think it's fair to say Cilla's voice was something of an acquired taste... but yes, her voice could be grating when she started belting out a song. Interestingly Brian Epstein didn't rate her and, after she had performed an audition for Epstein, he was going to turn her down until John Lennon talked him into letting her do a second audition and then talked him into signing her. Definitely a case of being in the right place (the cloakroom attendant at the Cavern Club) at the right time (when The Beatles were regular performers).
    Last edited by Robbie; Wed July 15, 2020, 09:26.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I prefer the musical arrangement of Anyone Who Had A Heart on Cilla's version, but find Cilla's voice too grating in the loud bits.

    Similarly with You're My World. I reckon Martin did a better arrangement than the Italian original, but when she gets to "With your hand, resting in mine .. " I start to cringe.

    Leave a comment:


  • setg1
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
    The Real Chart isn't based on points like the other charts, but on the actual sales that were happening on the 7 days it covers. Some people don't accept the chart, but some people think the World is flat.
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
    The reason for this wasn't the fact the record was rubbish in the public's eyes, but all down to supply. Even today the "stock" copy - sent out to shops is hardly available. And even on 45 Cat not one person owns it.
    This makes me wonder where the supposed sales for Ruby and the Romantics (not appearing on any of the four different UK charts) came from... On Discogs, just three people own a copy of the UK release – even the promo single of the same song is owned by more users! I know one can't conclude exactly how much a record sold based on a small number of copies listed on a website created decades later, but three is a ridiculously low number for a supposed top ten hit. I can even find non-hit records from smaller countries with more owners, such as a "Pretty Flamingo" cover from Finland (it didn't reach the top 40 there) that has seven owners, more than double that of Ruby and the Romantics!

    Barring additional evidence to the contrary (maybe strong import sales?), I see no reason to believe the Ruby and the Romantics single was a hit at all in the UK.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    I agree with you MrTibbs, Cilla's version of 'Anyone Who Had a Heart' was the better version. I'm sure I once read that Dionne Warwick wasn't happy that there was a competing version in the UK which she ultimately lost out to. I also agree that the Righteous Brothers version of 'You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'' is by far the better version. I was too young to follow the charts in 1964 (being only a few months old!) so nearly all my knowledge of the 1960s charts stems from when I bought the Tony Jasper book in 1976. I remember noticing that Cilla's version had the head start but that the Righteous Brothers version quickly overtook it. And rightly so as it's one of the all-time great singles (in my opinion of course!). It didn't occur to me back then (in 1976) that the BBC must have been plugging Cilla's version instead of the original.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah Splodj, I also remember it was Cilla Black's version that was plugged on the BBC, just the same as how Cilla's Anyone Who Had A Heart was, and I also remember it was a headline on the BBC News the week it went to No 1. I'm going to be controversial here lol and have all the puritans up in arms, but I really do think Cilla's version of 'Heart' was way superior to Dionne's. BUT the Righteous Brothers 'Feelin', is without a shadow of a doubt way superior in every way.
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Tue July 14, 2020, 20:31.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! I've been working all day and just arrived home, but worry ye not. Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 30th January 1965.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 30th 1965 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    1 1 Go Now - The Moody Blues 1 1 2 1 1 18800
    15 2 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 2 2 1 2 3 18580
    8 3 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - Cilla Black 3= 5 4 7 2 16815
    9 4 Come Tomorrow - Manfred Mann 3= 4 5 4 5 16810
    18 5 Tired Of Waiting For You - The Kinks 3= 3 6 3 6 16775
    2 6 Yeh Yeh - Georgie Fame and The Blue Flames 6 7 3 6 4 16595
    5 7 Cast Your Fate To To The Wind - Sounds Orchestral 7 6 7 5 10 15385
    3 8 Terry - Twinkle 8 8 8 8 7 14690
    4 9 Girl Don't Come - Sandie Shaw 9 11 10 9 8 13405
    7 10 Ferry Cross The Mersey - Gerry and The Pacemakers 10 12 9 10 9 13270
    16 11 Keep Searchin' - Del Shannon 11 9 12 11 12 12765
    12 12 Baby Please Don't Go - Them 12 10 11 13 11 12700
    6 13 I Feel Fine - The Beatles 13 13 13 12 13 11530
    10 14 Somewhere - P J Proby 14 15 14 14 14 10595
    11 15 Downtown - Petula Clark 15 19 15 15 16 9275
    21 16 The Three Bells - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 16 16 17 16 17 9190
    28 17 The Special Years - Val Doonican 17 14 21 18 21 8050
    24 18 Leader Of The Pack - The Shangri-Las 18 17 20 19 20 7685
    22 19 I'm Lost Without You - Billy Fury 20 21 18 17 24 7245
    13 20 Walk Tall - Val Doonican 19 25 16 22 15 7210
    27 21 I'll Never Find Another You - The Seekers 21 18 23 21 19 6620
    14 22 I Could Easily Fall - Cliff Richard 23 27 19 23 18 5705
    20 23 No Arms Can Ever Hold You - The Bachelors 25 22 29 22 3215
    NEW 24 What In The World's Come Over You - The Rockin' Berries 24 24 27 24 3100
    29 25 Getting Mighty Crowded - Betty Everett 26 20 26 29 2870
    NEW 26 Promised Land - Chuck Berry 27 26 28 27 26 2575
    19 27 I'm Gonna Be Strong - Gene Pitney 28= 24 23 2430
    NEW 28 Dance Dance Dance - The Beach Boys 28= 23 29 28 2400
    17 29 What Have They Done To The Rain - The Searchers 28= 25 30 25 2110
    23 30 I Understand - Freddie and The Dreamers 26 28 1505
    The Rolling Stones (LP) No 2 - The Rolling Stones 22 22 20 2900
    Come See About Me - The Supremes 28 25 1200
    Whatcha Gonna Do About It - Doris Troy 29 400
    Baby I Need Your Loving - The Fourmost 27 340
    Ringo - Lorne Green 30 250
    Yes I Will - The Hollies 30 200
    Genie With The Light Brown Lamp - The Shadows 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Pirate radio charts were of course all made up. There was of course some element of how many times a disc was being played. They would however get them weeks in advance of release. In fact in many cases the record once released had dropped out of the pirate chart.
    What we tend to forget is that the time TOTP played a record or showed a chart, it was already out of date. The effect of this was TOTP was playing a record that was collapsing in sales. I have monitored all of these charts, when doing now three years of 60's charts. And the number of times after a record has been on TOTP when a record should go up in sales, these charts show them falling down. It rarely happens on the full picture. But some of the charts record 10 place falls. Often the record leaves the top 30 and in doing so kills the sales completely. Remember the Sun article which said that the kids go for the thirty best sellers. So being removed when your record is in demand from a TV slot, is the death knell to a record.
    Each TOTP has the effect of pushing sales for two weeks of charts. The first is the Friday and Saturday push on the first chart. Then a full of week on the second chart, but on the decline as the week progresses, unless something else pushes the sales.
    But the pure fact of the matter is that there's a large list of records that were on TOTP that never make these published charts. Of course allowing for the fact that the biggest chart was only a 50, does take a few of them into account. Since even on the Real Chart, they fell short of 50. But most should have made the top 50 and simply didn't.
    I have come across one this week, in the 1967 chart from the New Christy Minstrels. On TOTP Thursday so in the chart, but only at 99. Next week gone when it should still be selling, despite lots of newspaper adds for the record, plus even more TV slots the week after been shown on TOTP.
    The reason for this wasn't the fact the record was rubbish in the public's eyes, but all down to supply. Even today the "stock" copy - sent out to shops is hardly available. And even on 45 Cat not one person owns it. Members commenting it was on TOTP, but asking even if it was released. This was however the exception to the rule. Most records making TOTP (as new releases) were well distributed.
    The sales at 99 were only 8,000, the equivalent to only one in one store for all the shops.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    My memory of Lovin' Feelin' is that when it was released here the BBC played the Cilla Black version (because it was British!) and the pirates played the Righteous Brothers more. Caroline was being eclipsed by Radio London which on 31st January had the Righteous Brothers as their number one. Any record that got into their Fab 40 received a boost, in the same way that getting into the BBC Top 20 ensured exposure as a New Entry on TOTP and POTP.
    Last edited by Splodj; Tue July 14, 2020, 07:26.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Brian I wasn't attacking your chart in any way. Simply comparing the two charts. The Real Chart isn't based on points like the other charts, but on the actual sales that were happening on the 7 days it covers. Some people don't accept the chart, but some people think the World is flat. I will argue with such people till I am blue in the face. But when we are and somebody asks what was the UK top 100 like on the 10 to 16 January 1965? On the other side! They will see the the same thing posted by me a few years ago.
    By the way that week fame clocked up 165,000 copies, a loss of 5k. In 1965 only he had sold 335,000 by then.
    The Moody Blues take it from him as in your chart, by selling 201,000. The Woolies version moves to 25. The Terry Brandon cover of the Manfred's hit was already at 60. Only a week after the Manfred song entered the chart! Showing how quick they liked to get the covers out!!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 23rd January 1965.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 23rd 1965 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    3 1 Go Now - The Moody Blues 1 1 1 1 2 18965
    1 2 Yeh Yeh - Georgie Fame and The Blue Flames 2 2 2 2 1 18500
    5 3 Terry - Twinkle 3 3 3 3 4 17695
    4 4 Girl Don't Come - Sandie Shaw 4 4 4 4 3 17230
    10 5 Cast Your Fate To The Wind - Sounds Orchestral 5 5 6 6 5 16160
    2 6 I Feel Fine - The Beatles 6 7 5 5 7 15940
    9 7 Ferry Cross The Mersey - Gerry and The Pacemakers 7 9 7 7 8 14755
    20 8 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - Cilla Black 8 5 9 8 12 14615
    19 9 Come Tomorrow - Manfred Mann 9 8 8 9 14 13995
    6 10 Somewhere - P J Proby 10 12 11 10 6 13025
    7 11 Downtown - Petula Clark 11 14 10 11 10 12435
    16 12 Baby Please Don't Go - Them 12 11 13 12 11 12100
    8 13 Walk Tall - Val Doonican 13 15 12 13 9 11620
    11 14 I Could Easily Fall - Cliff Richard 14 18 14 15 13 9980
    30 15 You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - The Righteous Brothers 15 10 18 16 20 9885
    NEW 16 Keep Searchin' - Del Shannon 16 16 23 17 19 7420
    15 17 What Have They Done To The Rain - The Searchers 18 25 17 19 17 7090
    NEW 18 Tired Of Waiting For You - The Kinks 19 13 24 14 7050
    14 19 I'm Gonna Be Strong - Gene Pitney 17 29 16 18 15 6810
    12 20 No Arms Can Ever Hold You - The Bachelors 20 28 15 23 16 6675
    21 21 The Three Bells - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 21 20 20 25 21 6400
    25 22 I'm Lost Without You - Billy Fury 23= 17 22 22 29 6120
    13 23 I Understand - Freddie and The Dreamers 22 19 20 18 5205
    27 24 Leader Of The Pack - The Shangri-Las 25 19 26 21 27 4990
    18 25 Genie With The Light Brown Lamp - The Shadows 26 21 27 23 3580
    22 26 A Message To Martha - Adam Faith 27 25 22 2265
    NEW 27 I'll Never Find Another You - The Seekers 29 24 29 29 2100
    NEW 28 The Special Years - Val Doonican 22 1800
    NEW 29 Getting Mighty Crowded - Betty Everett 23 1600
    17 30 Little Red Rooster - The Rolling Stones 27 26 1425
    The Rolling Stones No 2 (LP) - The Rolling Stones 23= 21 24 2700
    Baby I Need Your Lovin' - The Fourmost 28 29 26 25 1410
    Ringo - Lorne Green 30 28 24 1345
    Dance Dance Dance - The Beach Boys 25 1200
    Promised Land - Chuck Berry 27 30 900
    Like A Child - Julie Rogers 30 28 30 635
    What In The World's Come Over You - The Rockin' Berries 29 400
    There's A Heartache Following Me - Jim Reeves 28 255

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks for that Dave. I appreciate your feedback and intend to keep this thread going.

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  • eurofandave
    replied
    Brian,your Ultimate Averaged Chart really makes for very interesting and fascinating reading!! :-) Keep up your excellent work!!

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I just factually report what all the four main music papers say Graham. I just take their positions, points, store returns and add them up and present the information in the Ultimate Average chart which by definition has to be the most accurate as it is based on what all the major music papers at the time say then I average it, and although they all vary a bit by a few places they are all by and large reflecting the same records on their charts.

    As nobody accurately knows the actual sales week on week for the time in question and that is well accepted, then the information reported in the four main music papers charts is the most factual we actually have to base charts around.

    No chart was perfect then, NME and Disc accepted advance orders, included LP's, NME and MM in particular were a target for hyping, RR had a ridiculous number of shop returns, so by averaging them all out, excluded many of the anomalies and smoothed the chart out by finding the centre ground. So therefore the most likely chart possible is the Ultimate Averaged Chart.

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    I'm looking at the Real Chart for the above and the number 20 and 30 are way to high. Cilla being only 60. So some hyping going off there. In fact at the time Cilla's cover was attacked as destroying the better single from the Brothers, who were 41.
    Ruby and the Romantics down 8 to 28. Missing out also Marvin Gaye - How Sweet It Is - 23. Gunter Kallmann at 27. Dodie West 24. Matt Munro - For mama 22. Del Shannon 21.
    Woolies get a 31 entry with Jaybirds - Go Now
    Even the top ten has 4 wrong.
    Not in the top ten - your chart 5, 6, 7, 8.
    In the top ten - 14,15, 16, 22.
    Manfred Mann were in-between NME and Disc positions at 15.

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