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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by kjell View Post
    There were strange happenings in the US charts over the years and all three main charts were affected. That went so far that even which chart was the most reliable seemed to change several times. Both CB and RW were especially strange when nearing their ends. BB had a period the unlikely ocurrence that the number one changed weekly and reputedly fell by the same number of positions the week after. I really miss a serious evaluation of the US charts. Making an average US chart would show that the number of weekly hits would be far above the hundred for long periods prior to the demise of CB and RW. There was a book some decades ago that listed US number ones of the 60ies that disclosed the differences at that position.
    Four, if you count Radio & Records which published from 1973 to 2009. (And again, before 1964, RW was MV.) I cited the 1964-69 period to try to tabulate an average U.S. chart week-by-week because that was the period between Top Of The Pops' debut and the establishment of the "official" UK charts. It's hard to do pre-1967 because, on the World Radio History site, the relative scarcity of MV / RW issues. 1979 was especially strange in that there were so many R&R #1's that didn't come even close on BB, CB or RW. (Never mind that R&R was an airplay-only chart; it was the basis for some nationally syndicated radio shows over the years.)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ChartAfondicio View Post
      Four, if you count Radio & Records which published from 1973 to 2009. (And again, before 1964, RW was MV.) I cited the 1964-69 period to try to tabulate an average U.S. chart week-by-week because that was the period between Top Of The Pops' debut and the establishment of the "official" UK charts. It's hard to do pre-1967 because, on the World Radio History site, the relative scarcity of MV / RW issues. 1979 was especially strange in that there were so many R&R #1's that didn't come even close on BB, CB or RW. (Never mind that R&R was an airplay-only chart; it was the basis for some nationally syndicated radio shows over the years.)
      There was also a fifth one – Variety published a chart on and off for decades. There's some information available here. Not to mention some smaller publications with their own charts that ended pretty quickly.

      I've noticed some songs peaked at very different times, like ABBA's "Dancing Queen" – it was number one for a week in Record World, then the next week in Cash Box, then in Billboard. "Rich Girl" by Hall and Oates topped the other two charts in each of these weeks, so ABBA wouldn't be number one at all if the three charts were combined! A similar thing happened to Paul McCartney's "Uncle Albert", and probably some other singles too.

      Comment


      • Greetings Pop Pickers !

        A Happy New Year to all you guys out there and please, please, let this be a much better one at long last.

        Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 6th 1957

        Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

        The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 6th 1957 NME MM RM Total
        Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 25 60 Points
        Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
        1 1 Young Love - Tab Hunter 1 1 1 4500
        2 2 Don't Forbid Me - Pat Boone 2 2 2 4350
        3 3 Long Tall Sally - Little Richard (B) 4 3 3 4135
        5 4 The Banana Boat Song - Harry Belafonte 3 4 5 4055
        4 5 Knee Deep In The Blues - Guy Mitchell 5 6 4 3935
        NEW 6 Cumberland Gap - Lonnie Donegan 6 6 6 3750
        6 7 Don't You Rock Me Daddy-O - Lonnie Donegan 7 5 7 3650
        14 8 Look Homeward Angel - Johnnie Ray (A) 11 9 8 3230
        7 9 True Love - Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly 7 10 14 3105
        11 10 The Girl Can't Help It - Little Richard (A) 10 12 11 3040
        8 11 The Banana Boat Song - Shirley Bassey 12 8 12 2950
        10 12 Cumberland Gap - The Vipers Skiffle Group 15 12 9 2835
        9 13 Singing The Blues - Guy Mitchell 9 18 15 2715
        16 14 Friendly Persuasion - Pat Boone 13 18 16 2395
        15 15 She's Got It - Little Richard (B) 15 13 2120
        12 16 Only You - The Platters (B) 26 16 10 1960
        NEW 17 Heart - Max Bygraves 18 18 18 1950
        13 18 You Don't Owe Me A Thing - Johnnie Ray (B) 14 15 1505
        22 19 The Great Pretender - The Platters (A) 14 17 1265
        23 20 Knee Deep In The Blues - Tommy Steele 19 18 1105
        25 21 Rock-A-Bye Your Baby With A Dixie Melody - Jerry Lewis 22 11 1085
        18 22 The Banana Boat Song - The Tarriers 17 20 1010
        19 23 The Wisdom Of A Fool - Norman Wisdom 17 910
        RE 24 Tutti Frutti - Little Richard (A) 18 780
        NEW 25 Marianne - The Hilltoppers 20 715
        17 26 The Garden Of Eden - Frankie Vaughan 21 650
        26 27 The Wisdom Of A Fool - Ronnie Carroll 23 520
        NEW 27 I'm Not A Juvenile Delinquent - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers 23 520
        20 29 The Adoration Waltz - David Whitfield 25 390
        30 30 Whatever Lola Wants - Alma Cogan 26 325
        I'll Find You - David Whitfield 28 195
        29 Mangos - Rosemary Clooney 29 130
        Cry Me A River - Julie London 30 65
        21 My Prayer - The Platters
        24 Freight Train - The Chas McDevitt Skiffle Group with Nancy Whiskey
        27 Don't Knock The Rock - Bill Haley and His Comets
        28 Blue Monday - Fats Domino
        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

        Comment


        • Happy New Year MrTibbs. Keep posting those 1950s charts!

          Comment


          • Greetings Pop Pickers !

            ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 13th 1957

            Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

            The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 13th 1957 NME MM RM Total
            Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 25 60 Points
            Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
            6 1 Cumberland Gap - Lonnie Donegan 1 2 1 4475
            1 2 Young Love - Tab Hunter 2 1 2 4375
            4 3 The Banana Boat Song - Harry Belafonte 2 5 5 4095
            2 4 Don't Forbid Me - Pat Boone 5 3 3 4070
            3 5 Long Tall Sally - Little Richard (B) 4 4 4 4050
            5 6 Knee Deep In The Blues - Guy Mitchell 6 6 6 3750
            8 7 Look Homeward Angel - Johnnie Ray (A) 8 8 7 3510
            7 8 Don't You Rock Me Daddy-O - Lonnie Donegan 7 7 9 3480
            10 9 The Girl Can't Help It - Little Richard (A) 9 8 10 3265
            12 10 Cumberland Gap - The Vipers Skiffle Group (A) 10 14 12 2930
            9 11 True Love - Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly 10 10 14 2910
            15 12 She's Got It - Little Richard (B) 15 18 8 2745
            17 13 Heart - Max Bygraves 14 14 19 2250
            NEW 14 Baby Baby - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (B) 18 12 16 2220
            27 15 I'm Not A Junenile Delinquent - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (A) 16 13 2055
            NEW 16 Ninety-Nine Ways - Tab Hunter 17 15 1870
            RE 17 Freight Train - The Chas McDevitt Skiffle Group with Nancy Whiskey 21 11 1850
            18 18 You Don't Owe Me A Thing - Johnnie Ray (B) 12 11 1735
            11 19 The Banana Boat Song - Shirley Bassey 19 18 1560
            13 20 Singing The Blues - Guy Mitchell 13 1170
            RE 21 Singing The Blues - Tommy Steele 18 19 1045
            16 22 Only You - The Platters 30 17 905
            14 23 Friendly Persuasion - Pat Boone 20 715
            20 24 Knee Deep In The Blues - Tommy Steele 26 16 700
            NEW 25 Cry Me A River - Julie London 22 585
            23 26 The Wisdom Of A Fool - Norman Wisdom 23 520
            21 27 Rock-A-Bye Your Baby With A Dixie Melody - Jerry Lewis 12 475
            RE 28 Gonna Get Along Without Ya Now - Patience and Prudence 24 455
            NEW 29 I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen - Slim Whitman 25 390
            22 30 The Banana Boat Song - The Tarriers 16 375
            Maggie May - The Vipers Skiffle Group (B) 18 325
            25 Marianne - The Hilltoppers 27 260
            I'll Find You - David Whitfield 28 195
            You'll Never Never Know / It Isn't Right - The Platters 29 130
            The World Is Mine - Malcolm Vaughan 30 65
            19 The Great Pretender - The Platters
            24 Tutti Frutti - Little Richard (A)
            26 The Garden Of Eden - Frankie Vaughan
            27 The Wisdom Of A Fool - Ronnie Carroll
            29 The Adoration Waltz - David Whitfield
            30 Whatever Lola Wants - Alma Cogan
            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

            Comment


            • Lonnie Donegan achieves two major 'firsts'. Last week he had the highest chart debut to date at #6 and this week goes straight to #1 making him the first artist thus far to achieve this feat in just two weeks. In my opinion it is also the best record he ever made.
              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

              Comment


              • It really is the best version of the song. I’d be inclined to agree about the best song he ever made as well.
                http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                Comment


                • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                  ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 20th 1957

                  Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 20th 1957 NME MM RM Total
                  Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 25 60 Points
                  Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
                  1 1 Cumberland Gap - Lonnie Donegan 1 1 1 4500
                  2 2 Young Love - Tab Hunter 2 2 2 4350
                  3 3 The Banana Boat Song - Harry Belafonte 3 4 3 4175
                  4 4 Don't Forbid Me - Pat Boone 4 3 5 4015
                  5 5 Long Tall Sally - Little Richard (B) 5 5 4 3960
                  6 6 Knee Deep In The Blues - Guy Mitchell 6 6 8 3630
                  14 7 Baby Baby - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (B) 8 6 6 3620
                  7 8 Look Homeward Angel - Johnnie Ray (A) 7 10 10 3345
                  15 9 I'm Not A Juvenile Delinquent - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (A) 12 10 7 3200
                  9 10 The Girl Can't Help It - Little Richard (A) 12 8 12 2950
                  8 11 Don't You Rock Me Daddy-O - Lonnie Donegan 10 9 15 2875
                  16 12 Ninety-Nine Ways - Tab Hunter 9 11 2630
                  17 13 Freight Train - The Chas McDevitt Skiffle Group with Na ncy Whiskey 18 16 8 2600
                  29 14 I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen - Slim Whitman 15 13 13 2570
                  11 15 True Love - Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly 11 17 20 2310
                  13 16 Heart - Max Bygraves 14 17 17 2295
                  12 17 She's Got It - Little Richard (B) 22 12 13 2140
                  21 18 Singing The Blues - Tommy Steele 24 15 19 1575
                  NEW 19 I'm Walkin' - Fats Domino 19 20 1440
                  18 20 You Don't Owe Me A Thing - Johnnie Ray (B) 17 17 1260
                  10 21 Cumberland Gap - The Vipers Skiffle Group (A) 16 975
                  NEW 22 Butterfly - Andy Williams 29 18 910
                  NEW 23 Love Is A Golden Ring - Frankie Laine 16 900
                  19 24 The Banana Boat Song - Shirley Bassey 25 14 815
                  20 25 Singing The Blues - Guy Mitchell 20 715
                  NEW 25 When I Fall In Love - Nat King Cole 20 715
                  NEW 27 Maggie May - The Vipers Skiffle Group (B) 20 660
                  NEW 28 Butterfly - Charlie Gracie 23 520
                  NEW 29 Heart - The Johnston Brothers 26 325
                  RE 30 Tutti Frutti - Little Richard (A) 20 275
                  25 Cry Me A River - Julie London 27 260
                  23 Friendly Persuasion - Pat Boone 28 195
                  Blue Monday - Fats Domino 30 65
                  22 Only You - The Platters
                  24 Knee Deep In The Blues - Guy Mitchell
                  26 The Wisdom Of A Fool - Norman Wisdom
                  27 Rock-A-Bye Your Baby With A Dixie Melody - Jerry Lewis
                  28 Gonna Get Along Without Ya Now - Patience and Prudence
                  30 The Banana Boat Song - The Tarriers
                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                  Comment


                  • 7 Baby Baby - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (B)
                    9 I'm Not A Juvenile Delinquent - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (A)

                    Why was the B-side more popular than the A-side? (at this stage)
                    Did the Record Company promote both sides? Was it a double AA side record?
                    Or was it the general public who asked for different sides?
                    Or the radio playing both sides?

                    I only remember hearing the official A-side.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                      7 Baby Baby - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (B)
                      9 I'm Not A Juvenile Delinquent - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (A)

                      Why was the B-side more popular than the A-side? (at this stage)
                      Did the Record Company promote both sides? Was it a double AA side record?
                      Or was it the general public who asked for different sides?
                      Or the radio playing both sides?

                      I only remember hearing the official A-side.
                      You will see a few of these arise in the coming months Brian where sometimes the official B side performed better than the A.
                      It's still a sign of the times, a hangover from the Sheet Music Chart days where the general public were still going into a record shop and asking for a specific song as opposed to a 'record', so as a result both sides often charted individually.
                      There was obviously much confusion on stores reporting these to the music papers and their subsequent chart compilation because like we have mentioned a few times sometimes the sides were combined on the chart and sometimes split with little consistency.

                      The radio still tended to play 'songs' as opposed to records so this didn't help.
                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                        The radio still tended to play 'songs' as opposed to records so this didn't help.
                        Particularly the Light Programme where most of the music was performed by the various BBC orchestras.

                        Returning to an issue raised recently ...

                        If RM had gone to a Top 30 at the same time as NME, would RM now be the 'official' chart for this period? It appears from the Jasper books that Billboard had inherited the RM charts, so it could have been administratively easier for Guinness to have used RM for as long as it was consistent with their 'size matters' principle. Although this has to be balanced against the difficulty of having an additional changeover point (NME to MM).

                        To put it another way, if they had both been a Top 30 from April 1956 to March 1960, would Guinness still have chosen NME over RM?

                        If so, would they have used RM if it had gone to a Top 30 earlier than NME?
                        Last edited by Splodj; Wed January 5, 2022, 14:00.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Splodj View Post

                          Particularly the Light Programme where most of the music was performed by the various BBC orchestras.

                          Returning to an issue raised recently ...

                          If RM had gone to a Top 30 at the same time as NME, would RM now be the 'official' chart for this period? It appears from the Jasper books that Billboard had inherited the RM charts, so it could have been administratively easier for Guinness to have used RM for as long as it was consistent with their 'size matters' principle. Although this has to be balanced against the difficulty of having an additional changeover point (NME to MM).

                          To put it another way, if they had both been a Top 30 from April 1956 to March 1960, would Guinness still have chosen NME over RM?

                          If so, would they have used RM if it had gone to a Top 30 earlier than NME?
                          That's a really interesting point. I know that Dave Taylor once told me that from 1956 RM was a more accurate chart than NME and there are some ways I actually think this can be evidenced.
                          NME often went out on a limb with a record that made #1 but failed to do so in any other of the three charts in the fifties. Tommy Edwards, Vic Damone, Jane Morgan are prime examples. MM and Disc both tended to agree with RM in denying top spot to any of those records. The Everly's Bird Dog failed to reach #1 in NME but topped RM supported by MM and Disc again. These are really strong arguments I think that RM was on the ball. I also believe that submitted written returns would tend to be that bit more robust and reliable than a casual phone call where anyone could off the top of their head rhyme of their personal favourite top ten records.
                          RM could easily have compiled a Top Thirty if they were so inclined as they were receiving sufficient returns to do so. In retrospect it was a bit short sighted of them not to do so. Chart history like you allude to could then have been different.

                          No doubt about it, I don't think a lot of thought went into selecting NME and even worse RR as the two charts of choice. It was case of which had the most positions end of story. This poor selection process has haunted and appalled so many of us and other chartologists since.

                          For me personally if I had to go with my preference of music paper charts I would go with NME 1952 to 1955, RM from 1956 till July 1960, MM from July 1960 till February 1969, and then go with BMRB, not that I think their chart at that time (or since) was a vast improvement, it wasn't, but it was at least sales as opposed to points based and could reasonably therefore be called 'official'.
                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                          Comment


                          • I think the choice of chart could also have been ‘easyness’. I.e. we have NME 52-55 so why not keep till 60? One company to licence and then we have the RR for the 60’s.

                            If we assume your thought of NME then RM then MM then BMRB we have multiple changes which they may have tried to avoid.

                            I still don’t think there is a right chart for pre BMRB and as we know BMRB has its flaws but it at least tried.
                            http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                            Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                            Comment


                            • Well, for the LP charts, 'official' went with RM 1956-58, then MM 1958-60, then RR, each adding more positions...

                              Another way to do the singles chart is to go first with the chart that sampled the most shops, then append more records from the next highest shops, and on and on. Say for any week in 1965, I'd start off the chart with MM, then append records from NME not on MM, then append records from Disc not on NME or MM, then append records on RR not on NME, MM, Disc. You'd have all the records from all the charts, and the higher up the chart would be the most accurate based on more shops sampled. Fab !!

                              Comment


                              • Re Albums: True, but that adding of RM was a significant addition decades later - the MM chart was the only ‘known’ albums chart until about 2001, and it was only around 2002 or so that they where discovered and added in. Would the albums chart have gone RM - RR if they had been known in 1982 and I wonder if MM would have been used at all?

                                Don’t forget that this same publication (the first edition of the Hit Albums) states ‘a Top 100 was available to special subscribers during this period for 1969 onwards and yet this was never utilised (and, but the way, was wrong.). So I don;t think accuracy was much on their minds here….
                                http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
                                  I think the choice of chart could also have been ‘easyness’. I.e. we have NME 52-55 so why not keep till 60? One company to licence and then we have the RR for the 60’s.

                                  If we assume your thought of NME then RM then MM then BMRB we have multiple changes which they may have tried to avoid.

                                  I still don’t think there is a right chart for pre BMRB and as we know BMRB has its flaws but it at least tried.
                                  Yes I couldn't agree more. It was bad enough changing from one chart to another when Record Retailer published it's top 50 and they moved from NME top 30. It would have silly to switch to the Record Mirror chart, then leave it again for the RR, when it was still going.

                                  Considering it was only based on 300 shops the first BMRB charts were quite good. I am currently at the point in the Real Charts for 1969 and they are tying in well with the full list of sales. Not only that nine times out of ten records featured on TOTP move up just like they always have on the Real Charts before the switch over to BMRB. Whereas on both NME and Melody Maker they are slow or don't respond at all to the fact that a large selection of the record buying public had just watched TOTP. And the chart hypers had either not figured out how to fiddle the charts of BMRB yet, or were not interested in doing so. Of course by 1977 the BMRB was full of fiddles. For Example Tom Jones which made only 58 on the Real Chart reached 40 on the BMRB.
                                  The week after the first BMRB chart was produced the Melody Maker was defended itself and it's chart after it was made a complete fool of with the number one record from Amen Corner which I now know sold 141,000 copies, wasn't top five in it's chart that same week!
                                  Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                  Comment


                                  • It's a pity the books aren't being done now because I could have given them the UAC to use from 1955 to give the best chart representation of the era
                                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                    Comment


                                    • Interesting thinking Robin, but I would have preferred the same procedure that Brian is using now. About books, this new project from Lonnie make by far the best books ever done on UK charts and will be the Bible of the future. Just read the details of the concept.

                                      Comment


                                      • It was Lonnie's book that got me thinking about 'What if ...?'

                                        I think that if RM had started a Top 30 before NME Guinness would have gone with it. Then you would have had quantity and quality.

                                        Looking at the number ones NME is clearly the outlier, particulately in 58 and 59, so it will be interesting to see if this is as obvious when the full charts are shown side by side.

                                        A major reason is that NME firmed up on its split side policy when the others abandoned it. I presume this is why they did not have Bird Dog at number one when it was there for 3 weeks in RM and MM and 2 weeks in Disc.

                                        In a way this is a bigger discepancy than RRs lag effect, because at least that was rectified the following week!

                                        Comment


                                        • I totally agree with every one of those points you make Splodj.
                                          On the subject of Lonnie's excellent book launch I too have subscribed to get them all
                                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                          Comment


                                          • Thank you for subscribing and the praise. I appreciate the support.

                                            One of the beautiful things about the UAC is that it helps highlight the various chart issues and tries to smooth those.
                                            http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                            Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                            Comment


                                            • Since the NME chart used phone calls to compile the chart if some person on the phone said the B side of a record and some other person from another shop said the A side, it would be difficult to log them as one entry. When they phoned them back next week they could have pulled up the researcher about what happened to the record I told you last week?
                                              If that wasn't it then it could have been that the NME wanted to make certain the information they had from shops was precisely what was given. If you get the chart compiled by paper returns, you can always say that you lost the information or didn't get it that week.
                                              But as I have said before the music press have not always been keen on divulging how they compiled charts and the changes they made to them. If they had been we wouldn't be having these sorts of combinations and Mr Tibbs would have been able to put in precise figures each week of how many shops took part. Not an estimate.
                                              Due to the fact it was industry based the Official Charts from 1969 onwards at least were a bit more open on the subject. Though why the weekly sales were not put in and still not added on the current charts is beyond me.

                                              Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                              Comment


                                              • Another poisonous present that NME brings to the 'official' singles chart is the inclusion of LPs. Sometimes this leads to an inconsistency when you see an LP enter the singles chart indicating that it is the top LP that week, but when you look at the 'official' albums chart it isn't!

                                                Comment


                                                • I know this might be anathema to the separate sides camp, but with 5 double-sided hits in the 20/4/57 chart, we have a most interesting chart if you combine the sides.
                                                  Little Richard [LTS/TF] grabs No.4;
                                                  Frankie Lyman grabs No. 6;
                                                  Johnnie Ray is No. 8;
                                                  Little Richard [GCHI/SGI] grabs No. 9;
                                                  Vipers confirm No. 16.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Yep! And it’s always fun when they arrive for a week and then vanish…
                                                    http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                                    Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                                    Comment

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