The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Splodj]

the Tony Jasper Top 20 Charts book which I bought back in 1976.

I notice that the charts in it are copyright Billboard Ltd./BMRB. I wonder if this means that Billboard Ltd. inherited the rights to the Record Mirror back catalogue.

(It would have shown uncharacteristic fleet of foot for RR to put anything straight in at number one!)

[MrTibbs]

lol, at Lonnie and Robbie's comments Not to worry Lonnie at least has more hits in the bag to come to compensate.

[Robbie]

Nope just NME and RM Robbie, the two big charts at the time in respect of store returns, although NME would lose their crown to MM in July pushing RM to third.

I've just realised I got it wrong and was thinking of the RM charts and the Tony Jasper Top 20 Charts book which I bought back in 1976. All these different charts confuse me! Not that it takes much to confuse me these days...

[kingofskiffle]

Nope just NME and RM Robbie, the two big charts at the time in respect of store returns, although NME would lose their crown to MM in July pushing RM to third.

And I was very upset with that as it would be his only entry at the top. Ah well...

[MrTibbs]

Chart Commentary

All charts agree on #1 this week. Lonnie Donegan reigns supreme but it will be his last #1.
The charts though are divided though immediately below that position with 3 records competing for the #2 and #3 positions.

Of the new entries this week Neil Sedaka and Steve Lawrence are heading for the Top Ten, but this time Bobby Darin will fall short.
Jim Reeves will be around for weeks and weeks and weeks without reaching the Top Ten.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

There are only 4 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 2nd 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 2nd 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	38	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
2	1	My Old Man's A Dustman - Lonnie Donegan					1	1	1	1	1	1	7740
1	2	Running Bear - Johnny Preston					2	3	2	2	3	2	7352
9	3	Fall In Love With You / Willie And The Hand Jive - Cliff Richard					3	4	3	3	5	6	6954
5	4	Theme From 'A Summer Place' - Percy Faith					4=	5	4	5	4	3	6878
3	5	Delaware - Perry Como					4=	6	5	4	2	4	6846
12	6	Fings Ain't Wot They Used To Be - Max Bygraves					7	2	7	8	10	7	6404
7	7	What In The World's Come Over You - Jack Scott					6	7	6	6	6	14	6130
4	8	Poor Me - Adam Faith					8	10	8	9	7	5	5876
6	9	You Got What It Takes - Marv Johnson					9	8	11	10	8	9	5648
18	10	Handy Man - Jimmy Jones					10	9	9	7	13	18	5282
14	11	Beatnik Fly - Johnny and The Hurricanes					11	12	12	12	9	13	5022
17	12	Do You Mind - Anthony Newley					12	11	10	11	16	11	4970
10	13	On A Slow Boat To China - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					13	16	16	14	11	10	4376
8	14	Why - Anthony Newley					14	15	16	13	15	8	4354
15	15	Who Could Be Bluer - Jerry Lordan					15=	19	15	16	12	20	3770
19	16	Wild One - Bobby Rydell					15=	13	13	15		12	3698
22	17	Hit And Miss - The John Barry Seven					17	18	14	20	14	25	3508
20	18	Summer Set - Mr. Acker Bilk					18	14	20	17		15	3032
11	19	Be Mine - Lance Fortune					19	17		18	17	16	2764
NEW	20	Clementine - Bobby Darin					20	20	19	19		24	2266
16	21	Pretty Blue Eyes - Craig Douglas						24			18	19	1570
NEW	22	He'll Have To Go - Jim Reeves						21			20		1350
28	23	Looking High High High - Bryan Johnson						26			19	22	1270
21	24	Colette - Billy Fury						25				17	900
27	25	Country Boy - Fats Domino						23				28	730
13	26	A Voice In The Wilderness - Cliff Richard						29				21	460
NEW	27	Stairway To Heaven - Neil Sedaka						27					320
NEW	28	Footsteps - Steve Lawrence						28					240
23	29	Way Down Yonder In New Orleans - Freddy Cannon										23	240
RE	30	Let It Be Me - The Everly Brothers										26	150
		Willie And The Hand Jive - Cliff Richard						22	18
		My Heart - Gene Vincent						30				29	140
		Beyond The Sea (La Mer) - Bobby Darin										27	120
		Johnny Rocco - Marty Wilde										30	30

[MrTibbs]

Nope just NME and RM Robbie, the two big charts at the time in respect of store returns, although NME would lose their crown to MM in July pushing RM to third.

[Robbie]

For some reason I thought 'My Old Man's A Dustman' had entered the RR chart at #1. Obviously not.

[Graham76man]

Didn't Cliff mention it on the interview the other week!

[MrTibbs]

I believe there was a bit of controversy between the NME and Cliff Richard at the time. It's believed the NME chart was adjusted to give lower positions in the chart for Cliff and having looked at all the charts since January the NME generally does put Cliff's record lower than other charts, as shown by the example of the new record at nine, even lower than the average chart.

That might have been due to NME splitting sides on a lot of his discs. Both sides of the above single for example charted separately on NME

[Graham76man]

I believe there was a bit of controversy between the NME and Cliff Richard at the time. It's believed the NME chart was adjusted to give lower positions in the chart for Cliff and having looked at all the charts since January the NME generally does put Cliff's record lower than other charts, as shown by the example of the new record at nine, even lower than the average chart.

[MrTibbs]

Chart Commentary

Lonnie Donegan crashes in at #2 with a song I can remember nearly everybody singing back in the day.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

There are 13 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 26th 1960.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 26th 1960								NME	RM	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	80	60	38	50	30	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC				TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Running Bear - Johnny Preston					1	2	2	1	1	1	7600
NEW	2	My Old Man's A Dustman - Lonnie Donegan					2	1	1	2	3	5	7482
3	3	Delaware - Perry Como					3	3	3	3	2	3	7274
2	4	Poor Me - Adam Faith					4	4	4	4	5	4	6916
4	5	Theme From 'A Summer Place' - Percy Faith					5	5	5	5	4	2	6848
6	6	You Got What It Takes - Marv Johnson					7	6	6	8	8	11	6124
11	7	What In The World's Come Over You - Jack Scott					6	7	7	6	6	19	5920
5	8	Why - Anthony Newley					8	11	8	10	7	10	5608
NEW	9	Fall In Love With You / Willie And The Hand Jive - Cliff Richard					10	12	9	7	17	6	5202
8	10	On A Slow Boat To China - Emile Ford and The Checkmates					9	10	10	9	12	16	5176
7	11	Be Mine - Lance Fortune					11	17	11	11	11	12	4650
18	12	Fings Ain't Wot They Used To Be - Max Bygraves					14	8	14	15		8	4158
10	13	A Voice In The Wilderness - Cliff Richard					12	19	13	12	10	25	3992
20	14	Beatnik Fly - Johnny and The Hurricanes					13	9	12	14		17	3966
13	15	Who Could Be Bluer - Jerry Lordan					15	20	15	17	9	22	3742
9	16	Pretty Blue Eyes - Craig Douglas					17	18	18	16	15	14	3700
NEW	17	Do You Mind - Anthony Newley					18	14	16	19		15	3196
19	18	Handy Man - Jimmy Jones					16	15	17	13		20	3134
22	19	Wild One - Bobby Rydell						16	20	20		7	2998
12	20	Summer Set - Mr. Acker Bilk					19	13			16	13	2730
17	21	Colette - Billy Fury						22		18	18	9	2524
15	22	Hit And Miss - The John Barry Seven					20	23	19		14	21	2510
14	23	Way Down Yonder In New Orleans - Freddy Cannon						24			13	23	1700
16	24	Royal Event - Russ Conway						26			19	28	1090
23	25	Harbour Lights - The Platters						30			20		630
29	26	My Heart - Gene Vincent						29				18	550
25	27	Country Boy - Fats Domino						25					480
21	28	Looking High High High - Bryan Johnson						28				26	390
24	29	Beyond The Sea (La Mer) - Bobby Darin						27					320
RE	30	Lucky Devil - Frank Ifield										24	210
		Willie And The Hand Jive - Cliff Richard						21
		What Do You Want - Adam Faith										27	120
		Valentino - Connie Francis										29	60
		Bonnie Came Back - Duane Eddy										30	30

[Graham76man]

That is part of the show but it extended nearly up to the present, just missing out on the introduction of streaming. And the whole thing was a TV show not a radio or audio broadcast. I'm surprised it's not on i-player as it was only repeated a few weeks ago on BBC Four! James Masterton features in it.

[Splodj]

There was a BBC documentary about this Pop Charts Britannia: 60 Years of the Top 10, but it's not currently available to watch.

This is an audio of 'Pop Charts Britannia', but I don't know if it is the programme you mean ...
https://www.mixcloud.com/peteseaton/...k-of-the-pops/

As Saturday was the day of largest sales it does seem best to have had it as the final survey day, particularly as by ending on Friday you only had one day for the new releases (when they came out on a Friday).

[Robbie]

But something I found interesting about the Daily Mirror article on the MM chart in 1964 is that they still had Sunday deliveries then. So MM started counting the returns from their first mailbag on Sunday, then on Monday morning more returns arrived and they counted those. I reckon that by Monday lunchtime compilation of the MM chart was fairly advanced while NME were still phoning round the shops.

Regarding the lower positions, one thing I've always wondered about is that period when the commercial stations had the same Top 10 as the BBC chart but a different 11-40. Did the BBC goof in signing a contract that said they had exclusive broadcast rights to the Top 40 but omitted to add "and any part thereof"?

When did Sunday deliveries cease? I know the BMRB had to change the chart sales week in late 1974 from a Monday to Saturday to a Saturday to Friday when Sunday collections ceased. This was done to ensure enough diaries arrived on time on a Monday morning. It was 1979 before the chart sales week returned back to a Monday to Friday.

I remember a period in 1994/95 when the top 10 on commercial stations was being announced slightly ahead of the Radio 1 countdown but the BBC did something to get that to cease. Possibly they either signed a new contract with CIN or perhaps enforced something that was already in place.

[Graham76man]

There was a BBC documentary about this Pop Charts Britannia: 60 Years of the Top 10, but it's not currently available to watch. Neil Fox I remember talks about a loop hall in the contract that allowed them the top ten only.

The post system - The advantage though on a points based system is that it doesn't matter how many returns you get by post as each shop only gets 50 points. However a sales based system is more critical on the returns. To many returns from small shops and not enough from big shops can throw the chart out by miles. I should imagine the smaller sized shop could make the return out quicker than a big store.

[Splodj]

The 60's postal system wasn't that good.

But something I found interesting about the Daily Mirror article on the MM chart in 1964 is that they still had Sunday deliveries then. So MM started counting the returns from their first mailbag on Sunday, then on Monday morning more returns arrived and they counted those. I reckon that by Monday lunchtime compilation of the MM chart was fairly advanced while NME were still phoning round the shops.

Regarding the lower positions, one thing I've always wondered about is that period when the commercial stations had the same Top 10 as the BBC chart but a different 11-40. Did the BBC goof in signing a contract that said they had exclusive broadcast rights to the Top 40 but omitted to add "and any part thereof"?

[MrTibbs]

That makes sense to me. If you look at positions 31 to 50 week on week you could actually see that pattern taking place. The chart was really fickle in those positions.

[Graham76man]

Splodj's point above is correct about dubiety over the accuracy of the Top 50 bottom 20. Even when the BMRB chart took over the BBC only referred to the Top 30 because even that 'sales chart' was considered suspect in positions below that.

The woman from BMRB explained the reason for records below 30 were problematic. She said that records sell in high numbers the higher up the charts, but after 30 they are all selling the same numbers.
In which case you can jump up the chart 15 places selling one more copy than you did last week! Or fall 15 selling one less than the week before.
Another reason was that hypers could buy a record in between 50 and 31 due to the low numbers.

[kjell]

I second that Brian. The first top 50 I trusted was Melody Makers from september 62. Alas, they cut down the publishing to 30 in march 67 caused by suspicions of hyping.

[Graham76man]

It's very clear that when the BMRB took over they had little idea of how to do the charts. The system they had in place wasn't up to scratch and staff probably not trained to do the job. It took them a while to sort it out. A year later they had ironed out most of the problems. Though I discovered they made the odd error. Such as mixing up the sales of the Archies follow up single Jingle Jangle with Sugar Sugar!
I have added a comment on 45 Cat entry for Jingle Jangle. So check that out.
The 60's postal system wasn't that good. So returns from shops came back late. It could be that some shops were lazy about sending them in. Returns might have been in a bad state to use. Filled in poorly with some shops only sending back returns for top 50 records, not everything and a host of other problems. It would be interesting to see if any of the returning shops were dropped from the panel of shops during the early days of BMRB. I suspect they changed quite a few.
It's likely that many of the charts when they started them was a mess and not very good.
You only have to compare the last chart of the Missing Charts book with that of the first NME chart to see that it wasn't very good.

[MrTibbs]

With such a low number of shops taking part it would have been easier for the Retailer to ask them for actual record sales figures. All they needed was a full list of records and a box for the amount sold. The dealer would have just put in the number and send it back. I dare say you wouldn't get many ties unlike a point system, which just gives 50 points for the top and one for the bottom. But one shop might have ten at 50 and another 2 sold for two different records. With points the same and tied, sales a clear winner.
Imagine the discussions we would be having now if Retailer had produced a sales chart!

But, the BMRB chart which remember was a 'sales chart' was littered with ties during 1969, even as high as the #4 position, something which should have been nigh impossible in a sales chart versus point chart like Graham said.

Something was very wrong to allow that, so probably that supports Alan Smith and Dave Taylor's view that during that time the BMRB were only receiving a mere fraction of the sales diaries from stores to compile the chart.

[MrTibbs]

I grind my teeth as I admit it, but the RR charts are indeed here to stay. All boats have sailed in respect of the OCC considering any other chart now. To change now would be tantamount to admitting they were wrong up to now so that isn't going to happen.

Splodj's point above is correct about dubiety over the accuracy of the Top 50 bottom 20. Even when the BMRB chart took over the BBC only referred to the Top 30 because even that 'sales chart' was considered suspect in positions below that.

[Graham76man]

With such a low number of shops taking part it would have been easier for the Retailer to ask them for actual record sales figures. All they needed was a full list of records and a box for the amount sold. The dealer would have just put in the number and send it back. I dare say you wouldn't get many ties unlike a point system, which just gives 50 points for the top and one for the bottom. But one shop might have ten at 50 and another 2 sold for two different records. With points the same and tied, sales a clear winner.
Imagine the discussions we would be having now if Retailer had produced a sales chart!