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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    That's a really interesting point. I know that Dave Taylor once told me that from 1956 RM was a more accurate chart than NME and there are some ways I actually think this can be evidenced.
    There's an interesting (if legally long winded) High Court case from 1956 where the publishers of the New Musical Express attempted - and failed - to stop Record Mirror from claiming its top 10 was "the most authentic" and thereby implying that the NME's top 10 was not. Included in the legal action against Record Mirror were two singers named as "Whitfield" and "Earl" and a single called "My September Love". Whitfield (surely David Whitfield) appears to be accusing Record Mirror of mixing up sales of his version of 'My September Love' with another singer called Earl (Robert Earl?). The legal decision then gets bogged down in a long winded discussion of the Record Mirror singles chart of 17 March 1956.

    It's quite amusing to think that the relative accuracy of two national charts were being debated in the High Court by men presumably in wigs...

    https//academic.oup.com/rpc/article-pdf/73/10/211/4490680/73-10-211.pdf (PDF document)

    Comment


    • Graham76man
      Graham76man commented
      Editing a comment
      Can't find the document Robbie the link on Google only shows this post!

  • I had a read at that article Robbie and it's an interesting find. I think it highlights that NME were rattled by having a competing chart with their own and most certainly saw it as a serious threat.
    RM were obviously confident enough with their own chart to boast it was the most authentic almost certainty taking a swipe at NME
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

    Comment


    • Greetings Pop Pickers !

      ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 27th 1957

      Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

      The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 27th 1957 NME MM RM Total
      Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 25 60 Points
      Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
      1 1 Cumberland Gap - Lonnie Donegan 1 1 1 4500
      2 2 Young Love - Tab Hunter 3 2 2 4285
      3 3 The Banana Boat Song - Harry Belafonte 2 5 3 4215
      5 4 Long Tall Sally - Little Richard (B) 5 3 4 4010
      4 5 Don't Forbid Me - Pat Boone 4 4 6 3930
      7 6 Baby Baby - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (B) 6 6 5 3810
      8 7 Look Homeward Angel - Johnny Ray (A) 7 8 8 3515
      14 8 I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen - Slim Whitman 11 7 7 3340
      25 9 When I Fall In Love - Nat King Cole 9 11 10 3190
      12 10 Ninety-Nine Ways - Tab Hunter 8 12 13 3050
      13 11 Freight Train - The Chas McDevitt Skiffle Group with Nancy Whisky 12 14 9 2980
      16 12 Heart - Max Bygraves 14 9 14 2675
      10 13 The Girl Can't Help It - Little Richard (A) 17 10 11 2635
      9 14 I'm Not A Juvenile Delinquent - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (A) 15 20 12 2455
      22 15 Butterfly - Andy Williams 16 15 16 2275
      6 16 Knee Deep In The Blues - Guy Mitchell 12 17 20 2245
      15 17 True Love - Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly 17 20 20 1845
      11 18 Don't You Rock Me Daddy-O - Lonnie Donegan 10 18 1690
      28 19 Butterfly - Charlie Gracie 21 17 1490
      19 20 I'm Walkin' - Fats Domino 25 15 1350
      17 21 She's Got It - Little Richard (B) 13 17 1290
      NEW 22 Butterfingers - Tommy Steele 15 19 1120
      23 23 Love Is A Golden Ring - Frankie Laine 22 18 910
      NEW 24 Rock-A-Billy - Guy Mitchell 19 780
      25 25 Singing The Blues - Guy Mitchell 20 715
      29 26 Heart - The Johnston Brothers 23 520
      20 27 You Don't Owe Me A Thing - Johnnie Ray (B) 24 455
      21 28 Cumberland Gap - The Vipers Skiffle Group (A) 25 390
      18 29 Singing The Blues - Tommy Steele 20 275
      27 29 Maggie May - The Vipers Skiffle Group 20 275
      Mangos - Rosemary Clooney 27 260
      Why Baby Why - Pat Boone 28 195
      Friendly Persuasion - Pat Boone 29 130
      Marianne - The Hilltoppers 30 65
      24 The Banana Boat Song - Shirley Bassey
      30 Tutti Frutti - Little Richard (A)
      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

      Comment


      • Graham for me the link led to a file with the article but it had to be downloaded it to see it. It is very long winded like Robbie said, spun out and very repetitive but doesn't really say any more than when Robbie said. But it is interesting just the same.
        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

        Comment


        • 22 Butterfingers - Tommy Steele
          First we had Butterfly, now we have Butterfingers.

          Mangos - Rosemary Clooney
          First we had Bananas, now we have Mangos.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
            Graham for me the link led to a file with the article but it had to be downloaded it to see it. It is very long winded like Robbie said, spun out and very repetitive but doesn't really say any more than when Robbie said. But it is interesting just the same.
            I used another browser and that produced the file. The other browser was Chrome, so if you can's get the file and your on that switch to Firefox or something else.
            Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
              22 Butterfingers - Tommy Steele
              First we had Butterfly, now we have Butterfingers.
              Tommy Steele did his own film called "The Tommy Steele Story" you can get it on DVD, it's quite good.
              Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

              Comment


              • Looking back a few pages I see that 'My September Love' by David Whitfield lurked in and out of the lower reaches of both Top 20s. On the week in question it was absent from both charts. The Robert Earl version appeared for a few weeks only in RM, but I imagine was just outside the NME 20. It is possible David Whitfield was rather embarrassed that the Grade brothers brought this action on his behalf as his record label Decca was (I believe) the majority owner of RM!

                Comment


                • In my Top 10 records analysis of Mar 1960-Mar 1962, RM fared extremely well. In a comparison of all 5 charts (NME, RM, MM, Disc, RR), in terms of closest to the average peak, fewest outliers, and most inliers, MM came in first, RM second, NME and Disc essentially tied at third, with RR lagging in fifth.

                  For you number nuts, here's that thread:

                  https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...ts=&highlight=

                  Alas I haven't gotten around to doing a 50s comparison of Top 10 peaks across the 5 charts. Hopefully one day...

                  Comment


                  • Sad to see in that thread (linked to above) that when Alan Smith asked his MM contacts if they had kept the Top 31-50s they continued to compile after April 67 he was told 'no'.

                    Comment


                    • The BBC did the same with Dr Who episodes and many of those have been found as a collector took them home. It’s always possible somebody did the same here.
                      http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                      Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                      Comment



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                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by kingofskiffle View Post
                          The BBC did the same with Dr Who episodes and many of those have been found as a collector took them home. It’s always possible somebody did the same here.
                          But more people worked on TV shows like that then they did at Melody Maker.
                          Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                          Comment


                          • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                            ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending May 4th 1957

                            Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 4th 1957 NME MM RM Total
                            Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 25 60 Points
                            Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
                            1 1 Cumberland Gap - Lonnie Donegan 1 1 1 4500
                            3 2 The Banana Boat Song - Harry Belafonte 2 2 3 4290
                            6 3 Baby Baby - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (B) 4 4 2 4170
                            2 4 Young Love - Tab Hunter 3 3 6 4020
                            4 5 Long Tall Sally - Little Richard 8 5 4 3765
                            24 6 Rock-A-Billy - Guy Mitchell 6 10 5 3710
                            10 7 Ninety-Nine Ways - Tab Hunter 5 8 10 3525
                            15 8 Butterfly - Andy Williams 10 6 8 3370
                            7 9 Look Homeward Angel - Johnnie Ray (A) 7 12 9 3355
                            9 10 When I Fall In Love - Nat King Cole 11 11 7 3240
                            5 11 Don't Forbid Me - Pat Boone 9 6 12 3195
                            8 12 I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen - Slim Whitman 13 8 11 2945
                            13 13 The Girl Can't Help It - Little Richard (A) 12 13 13 2765
                            11 14 Freight Train - The Chas McDevitt Skiffle Group with Nancy Whiskey 13 17 14 2540
                            14 15 I'm Not A Juvenile Delinquent - Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers (A) 16 13 15 2385
                            23 16 Love Is A Golden Ring - Frankie Laine 22 16 17 1800
                            22 17 Butterfingers - Tommy Steele 25 19 18 1470
                            17 18 True Love - Bing Crosby and Grace Kelly 15 18 1365
                            12 19 Heart - Max Bygraves 17 15 1310
                            20 20 I'm Walkin' - Fats Domino 26 16 1225
                            16 21 Knee Deep In The Blues - Guy Mitchell 19 20 1055
                            19 22 Butterfly - Charlie Gracie 27 19 980
                            18 23 Don't You Rock Me Daddy-O - Lonnie Donegan 17 910
                            25 24 Singing The Blues - Guy Mitchell 20 715
                            21 25 She's Got It - Little Richard (B) 20 660
                            RE 26 Mangos - Rosemary Clooney 21 650
                            NEW 27 Why Baby Why - Pat Boone 23 520
                            RE 28 Marianne - The Hilltoppers 24 455
                            26 29 Heart - The Johnston Brothers 28 195
                            NEW 30 The World Is Mine - Malcolm Vaughan 29 130
                            Round And Round - Jimmy Young 30 65
                            27 You Don't Owe Me A Thing - Johnnie Ray (B)
                            28 Cumberland Gap - The Vipers Skiffle Group (A)
                            29 Singing The Blues - Tommy Steele
                            29 Maggie May - The Vipers Skiffle Group (B)
                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                            Comment


                            • Yeah Splodj, MM didn’t but many of those 31-50s were in fact published in a more obscure publication. MM wouldn’t publish them themselves because they had discovered suspicions of hyping in their own chart.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by kjell View Post
                                Yeah Splodj, MM didn’t but many of those 31-50s were in fact published in a more obscure publication. MM wouldn’t publish them themselves because they had discovered suspicions of hyping in their own chart.
                                01/04/1967 to 20/09/1969 Top 30, then 17/04/1971, 01/05/1971 onwards are all Top 30's for me. I have the missing set of dates above from Music Business Weekly. What else printed the Top 50 from Melody Maker in the 1970's?
                                http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                Comment


                                • Just checked my files. The 31-50 were published in Music Business Weekly 69 Sep 20 thru’ 71 Mar 27. These dates are chart dates, publication dates one week later. Publication dates 71 Apr 17 and May 1 must be Disc chart tips that was discovered late. Apr 24 was Easter date with no chart tips. Disc carried the MM chart then and added weekly 20 chart tips to MM top 30. A rather small percentage of the tips charted.

                                  Comment


                                  • So did the Music Business Weekly 50 appear one week after the 30 had appeared in MM, after MM had monitored them to remove any suspicious activity?

                                    Otherwise, if the 50 were released at the same time as the 30 the whole object of not having the full 50 in MM would be defeated. Hypers would know what they needed to do to 'beat the system'.

                                    Comment


                                    • It’s about 14 years since I worked on that. I can’t really remember. However, if they really had done such a strange thing as publishing the 50 one week later I probably would have remembered. The point for MM was as I remember it that MM shouldn’t publish a chart that might have been hyped.

                                      Comment


                                      • I've always believed, irregardless of chart, that all positions below number 30 back in the sixties and seventies were much less accurate and not worthy of serious consideration.
                                        Two reasons, as you say above MM stopped publishing the 31 to 50 positions originally because especially at that lower level of their chart the figures were so low it was open to hyping and manipulation. It commenced again and stopped again. So they obviously had no great interest in an extended chart much favouring just a Top 30 in reality.
                                        This fact was further borne out when the BMRB chart came into being. It was common knowledge that even in the sales chart sales were so low under the Top 30 and unreliable that only a handful of copies could change a chart position. That is why the BBC back then only considered, used, and broadcast only the Top 30.
                                        When considering the criteria for the UAC I also discounted an extended chart for the above reasons. Top thirties from 1962 were consistent on all charts so this was the obvious format to use for the best result.
                                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                        Comment


                                        • I hear what everyone is saying about a Top 30 being the most accurate chart, and below that much less accurate. That is truth. But I approach the 31-50+ positions from a different perspective, and that is, I want to know about all these other minor records, that they existed, that an artist put them out, from a discography point of view. Having an expanded chart to 50 positions or more would not harm the upper Top 30, it would just be extra information to supplement it. Record buyers / chart watchers would want to know this extra info so they could go out and buy those records. Record companies and artists would want to sell those records. Win-win for everyone. Rock on !!

                                          Comment


                                          • In principle I agree with you Brian. On the other hand I was so eager to get more info on other hits by my favourite artists that I was and still is willing to accept lower reliability on minor hits by the very same. And some of those hits weren’t necessarily distinctly worse than the bigger hits, but they were often hits when these artists were either at the beginning of their career or when it was fading. When it comes to your thread which I follow daily I agree with the concept that the hits below thirty don’t deserve the same thorough treatment as the lesser hits. Top 30 here feels just right.

                                            Comment


                                            • I don't disagree with that perspective on the chart Robin and kjell. The lower positions under the main Top 30 did indeed have value in as much as they could be viewed as potential 'breakers' just under the main upper chart. They did also show what was selling in much lower numbers just below the 'big numbers' and therefore without doubt did have an important part to play in respect of availability and future chart potential.

                                              The point I was making above though was just that under the Top 30 these records, important and influential, as they were, were not selling in sufficient quantities in any given week to reliably claim a definitive chart position. The positions allocated between 31 and 50 were much less reliable than 30 to 1 but as a guide to what was hanging around and available with future chart potential for airplay etc were still useful and served a purpose for the market.
                                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                              Comment


                                              • It may also be significant that NME for whatever reason didn't see fit to expand to a Top 50 until into the eighties.
                                                The NME , First chart with Top 20, then a Top 30 by 1956 was without a shadow of a doubt by far the biggest selling music paper in the sixties. They would have seen RM adopt the RR Top 50, MM go to the same, and even Disc for a time, yet NME resisted and stuck to a Top 30 format. All the more strange given the explosion of record sales in late 1963 and 1964.
                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Fifties and Sixties.

                                                Comment


                                                • And MrTibbs logic would say that you would do what - as a paper owner - sold papers. You would want - and the court case shows that. -to be the best chart and to be seen as such (I appreciate we can debate here if they where but that is what they would want to be seen as). They would have seen the MM claim of 'over 100 record shops' on their chart from 1960 onwards ad would have discussed what to do - it's common sense and you always keep an eye on the completion in a business world. They would have done experiments with a Top 50 themselves (or larger) and would have concluded not to - was it time? or accuracy?

                                                  The chart would have been a selling point of the paper, but they may have concluded that the outlay in terms of costs to increase to an accurate Top 50 would have necessitated a much larger sample and, as such, a higher amount of staff to process the larger returns. I am, of course, inventing a figure, but let us say it took 2 staff to tally 100 returns over two days. Thus they would take 4 days to tally 200 returns (possibly what they may have concluded was needed for an accurate Top 50 - possibly not, but let us assume they wanted, for the moment, ore returns to make a Top 50). That was untenable, so they would need to hire more staff. That would cost a lot of money, and was it really needed?

                                                  I do appreciate I am guessing a lot in the above, but we must remember that, first and foremost, these papers wanted to make money. Anything that cost and did not provide a return would be a big no-no. And would the larger chart have gathered them more revenue? I suspect they would have concluded no, it would not.

                                                  By 1983, when it expanded to a Top 50, Number 1 also took it as a Top 75 but they also had computer returns, or at least computer compilation. Gallup at this time was introducing electronic point of sale machines in their chart return stores - it would take 15 years to become widespread - but it was allowing for a faster compilation method and it could be that NME bought a computer in 1983 and so saved money that way. It could also be that they where trying to do a last ditch attempt at competing - the Network Chart was launched in September 1984, so could this have been discussed in mid 1983 making NME sit up and decide to take notice and change?
                                                  http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                                  Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                                  Comment

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