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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I don't think it has been revealed how or why the OCC went with RR as 'official for the 60s' in 2001. They apparently didn't do much research on the matter, or talk to someone with diehard chart knowledge.

    Alan Smith's excellent 50s/60s UK chart history article still had not been written as of 2001, I think the first version got published in Record Collector in 2005, so the OCC couldn't have used that info. After the OCC had made its decision to go with RR, Alan went to Dave McAleer who was then working at the OCC, and explained the situation to him. Dave told Alan that if the OCC had known about the info he had gathered, they most likely would NOT have chosen RR to represent the 60s. Alan told me this by email, I don't know if it's public knowledge, and I hope I don't get Dave in trouble, ha.

    RR might have been chosen as the 'official 60s chart' by the OCC in 2001 because they had 50 chart positions each week (which is apparently the reason that Guinness went with RR), but I don't think I've ever heard or read that for sure. The story the OCC gives out now is that RR was the precursor to the 'official' charts started in Feb 1969, as RR was 'the industry chart' prior to the BMRB/BARS industry chart.

    Well, we can argue that all night long. RR did not start out as an industry music paper or chart, it was actually an anti-industry music paper/chart, published for independent record shops not tied to any record label. They may have drifted over to eventually becoming 'the industry music paper' after Billboard infused them with lots of cash in 1966. But guess what? The RR chart was compiled no differently than any of the other charts, calculated from an average of their reporting record shop charts, not total sales. The worst thing about RR was that it sampled the smallest number of record shops, and forced tie breakers BASED ON LAST WEEKS CHART INFO, totally bogus. Not to mention it was the least followed, least known chart of the 60s.

    But would NME or MM have given the OCC the rights to make them 'official for the 60s' in 2001? Probably, since they both ceased their own charts in 1988.

    No, I don't expect the OCC to ever come around. If they truly cared about 60s UK chart history, they would have spent the time and effort years/decades ago to do what Brian is doing now. But for the OCC today, it just doesn't matter, all the 60s charts are 'approximately' the same, RR is good enough, it's too late to change, ugh...

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    What a load of hogwash that 'Look Inside' article is.

    I've seen lots of pitiful attempts over the years to justify the RR chart but that article takes it to a whole new level.

    Record Mirror's own chart was scrapped in March 1962 so that reference is totally inaccurate. Then to compare store returns is a joke. RR had 30 meagre stores compared to around 400 between NME, MM, and Disc. Even the simplest mathematical brain could calculate on that basis they were right and RR was wrong.

    But sadly they are still blind and deaf to any criticism of RR. They need to take a look at my charts side by side for the first time, and take a long hard look at just who is out of step every single week.
    They do - but remember the OCC probably dont want to admit they are wrong. And, in the face of over 40 years of “history” since the first Guinness book in 1977 its a lot to overturn, which they simply will not do.

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  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    "... which at the turn of the decade featured just 20 titles for singles ..."

    Is this a misprint, or does it mean they are only using the Top 20 of the NMEs Top 30?
    Must be a misprint as the book uses the full Top 30 from NME.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    The only really good excuse for the RR chart inclusion was that it was a top 50 and it did not cut the chart down. We all know that if Melody Maker had not cut the chart down, or if NME had made it a top 50 roughly the same time. Then the first Guinness chart book would have used one of them instead. They knew that both were more accurate than RR. But if you only use a top 30, so many records get missed out and that was the driving factor.

    Chart dates are also confusing on the Record Retailer charts, still reflected on the OCC site itself. The week ending dates on NOT always the Saturday. Some I have seen are Thursday fitting in with the publication dates. The OCC should take a look at the Calender sites at correct these dates. Some people use the charts for birthdays. If you happened to born on a Friday or Saturday you could get the wrong chart for your birthday! And I am not talking about the stupid decision when they moved the chart publication to Friday a few years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    What a load of hogwash that 'Look Inside' article is.

    I've seen lots of pitiful attempts over the years to justify the RR chart but that article takes it to a whole new level.

    Record Mirror's own chart was scrapped in March 1962 so that reference is totally inaccurate. Then to compare store returns is a joke. RR had 30 meagre stores compared to around 400 between NME, MM, and Disc. Even the simplest mathematical brain could calculate on that basis they were right and RR was wrong.

    But sadly they are still blind and deaf to any criticism of RR. They need to take a look at my charts side by side for the first time, and take a long hard look at just who is out of step every single week.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    "... which at the turn of the decade featured just 20 titles for singles ..."

    Is this a misprint, or does it mean they are only using the Top 20 of the NMEs Top 30?

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    You may be interested to learn that Amazon have issued Kindle versions of The Official Charts - The Sixties.
    Only costs 9.99 instead of 20 for the paperback version. It includes the UK’s Official singles and albums charts from 1952 to the present day. Also included are the accompanying EP Charts, which were published between March 1960 and December 1967. (2,330 pages)

    One advantage of e-books (versus their print equivalents) however is the search function, which can be used to search for any titles, artists, labels or even key words, using the search function built into your e-reader or tablet app.

    The free sample for The Official Charts - The Sixties will be auto-delivered wirelessly to your iPad.

    If you click on Look Inside you can read this,



    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah i would agree with that Graham. 21 to 30 are fun positions as only NME initially then RR now had an extended chart. It will be late 1962 when MM and Disc extend to a Top 30 and 21 to 30 become robust.

    But. Its good to see how these positions shape up meantime.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    It will be interesting to see what effect the RR chart has on the UAC. Its small sample should be enough to enure it has a minimal effect on the records closer to the top. Looking at the above it's effect on the lower part of the chart is also minimal.
    However Melody Maker is only 8 shops higher so that too must have lower effect too. Also like NME it has 30 slots, whereas the others have 20 only. With those slots missing from the other chart, it does mean that 21 to 30 are only an approximate indication of the full survey. All though the inclusion of the RR 30 does end the reign of NME on slots 21 to 30. It still means those slots are not as accurate as the later 60's charts Brian has done. Though having said that Brian's system seems to work on 21 and 22 positions most weeks.
    I think what I have said explains why the BBC stuck with only a 20, as the 30 copies one chart too much, especially if it has the highest store level.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah Robbie thankfully its impact remains minimal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    It will be interesting to see what effect the RR chart has on the UAC. Its small sample should be enough to enure it has a minimal effect on the records closer to the top. Looking at the above it's effect on the lower part of the chart is also minimal.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Chart Commentary

    RR starts to publish a chart this week based on just 30 returns. So this means The Ultimate Averaged Chart is now compiled from 5 music papers, giving an averaged chart never before compiled. Enjoy !

    Incidentally, in an era of Elvis, Everly Bros etc Percy Faith's Summer Place will be America's biggest selling single this year.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    There are again 9 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 12th 1960.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 12th 1960 NME RM MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 38 50 30 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Poor Me - Adam Faith 1 1 2 1 1 1 7680
    3 2 Running Bear - Johnny Preston 2 2 1 2 2 2 7542
    8 3 Delaware - Perry Como 3 3 3 4 4 8 6986
    5 4 On A Slow Boat To China - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 4 4 4 5 5 3 6908
    2 5 Why - Anthony Newley 5 5 6 3 6 4 6704
    4 6 A Voice In The Wilderness - Cliff Richard 6 8 5 6 3 10 6380
    7 7 Pretty Blue Eyes - Craig Douglas 7= 11 8 7 7 6 5842
    6 8 Way Down Yonder In New Orleans - Freddy Cannon 7= 6 10 9 8 12 5816
    12 9 You Got What It Takes - Marv Johnson 9= 9 9 8 13 7 5574
    15 10 Summer Set - Mr. Acker Bilk 11 10 11 11 9 5 5520
    10 11 Be Mine - Lance Fortune 9= 12 7 10 10 11 5408
    20 12 Theme From 'A Summer Place' - Percy Faith 13 7 12 16 19 16 4680
    9 13 Beyond The Sea (La Mer) - Bobby Darin 12 14 15 13 11 9 4664
    16 14 Who Could Be Bluer - Jerry Lordan 14 15 14 17 12 17 4202
    26 15 What In The World's Come Over You - Jack Scott 15 13 13 12 20 3572
    17 16 Royal Event - Russ Conway 17 16 16 18 15 3230
    11 17 Bonnie Came Back - Duane Eddy 18 18 19 14 13 3150
    14 18 Harbour Lights - The Platters 16 19 14 15 18 2796
    21 19 Hit And Miss - The John Barry Seven 19= 22 16 16 26 2520
    28 20 Looking High High High - Bryan Johnson 19= 16 20 17 2318
    NEW 21 Colette - Billy Fury 26 18 15 22 2058
    23 22 California Here I Come - Freddy Cannon 20 20 18 2034
    13 23 Starry Eyed - Michael Holliday 25 20 14 1540
    22 24 Let It Be Me - The Everly Brothers 21 19 1160
    NEW 25 Fings Ain't Wot They Used To Be - Max Bygraves 23 640
    NEW 26 Wild One - Bobby Rydell 23 640
    NEW 27 Darktown Strutters' Ball - Joe Brown 29 19 616
    19 28 Misty - Johnny Mathis 27 25 500
    30 29 Heartaches By The Number - Guy Mitchell 21 300
    NEW 30 Teen Angel - Mark Dinning 28 240
    What Do You Want To Make Those Eyes At Me For - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 23 240
    What Do You Want - Adam Faith 24 210
    Time And The River - Nat King Cole 27 120
    Rawhide - Frankie Laine 28 90
    Be My Guest - Fats Domino 30 80
    El Paso - Marty Robbins 29 60
    Little White Bull - Tommy Steele 30 30
    * RR started publishing a chart from this week and is also included from this week, so this chart is now a first, an averaged chart based on all 5 charts not just the 4 used by the BBC.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah we seemed to get it at a different time up here.

    I loved the novelty of the jukebox. David Jacobs pressed a button and a record was selected and placed on the turntable. It was a nice touch although of course it wasn't what we were about to hear.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    In too comes The Juke Box Jury theme, Hit And Miss from The John Barry Seven.
    Still sounds good! I think they were the 'John Barry Seven plus Four' then.

    “Coming up next, ‘Juke Box Jury’. Except for viewers in Scotland who will have their own sports programme.”

    I heard an interview with David Jacobs in which he said that he threatened to sue the BBC when he heard that they were going to do the show with Pete Murray as chairman, because he had previously presented the idea to the BBC who turned it down. They settled the issue by making him chairman instead.

    One feature I liked was how the ‘hit’ bell was on the desk and the shameful ‘miss’ buzzer underneath.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Chart Commentary

    In comes one of my all time favourite instrumentals this week, the wonderful Theme From A Summer Place by Percy Faith.
    What a record !!! So evocative.

    In too comes The Juke Box Jury theme, Hit And Miss from The John Barry Seven.

    The UK Eurovision song contest entry enters too at 28. Least said about that one the better !

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    There are 9 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart Top 20 and The Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 20.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 5th 1960.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 5th 1960 NME RM MM DISC Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 80 60 38 50 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 Poor Me - Adam Faith 1 1 1 2 3 6702
    1 2 Why - Anthony Newley 2 2 3 1 1 6640
    7 3 Running Bear - Johnny Preston 3 3 2 3 6 6294
    3 4 A Voice In The Wilderness - Cliff Richard 4 5 4 4 2 6176
    6 5 On A Slow Boat To China - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 5 4 5 5 4 6058
    4 6 Way Down Yonder In New Orleans - Freddy Cannon 6= 6 6 7 7 5612
    5 7 Pretty Blue Eyes - Craig Douglas 6= 7 8 6 5 5550
    19 8 Delaware - Perry Como 8 8 7 8 11 5154
    8 9 Beyond The Sea (La Mer) - Bobby Darin 9 10 10 9 8 4926
    10 10 Be Mine - Lance Fortune 10 11 9 10 10 4768
    14 11 Bonnie Came Back - Duane Eddy 14 12 12 16 16 3980
    16 12 You Got What It Takes - Marv Johnson 15 12 14 18 13 3934
    9 13 Starry Eyed - Michael Holliday 12= 14 18 13 9 3924
    11 14 Harbour Lights - The Platters 12= 14 17 11 12 3910
    12 15 Summer Set - Mr. Acker Bilk 11 9 11 12 3682
    20 16 Who Could Be Bluer - Jerry Lordan 16 16 16 17 20 3182
    24 17 Royal Event - Russ Conway 18= 17 15 18 2730
    15 18 What Do You Want To Make Those Eyes At Me For - Emile Ford and The Checkmates 17 21 14 14 2296
    13 19 Misty - Johnny Mathis 18= 20 15 15 2288
    NEW 20 Theme From 'A Summer Place' - Percy Faith 20 18 13 2120
    NEW 21 Hit And Miss - The John Barry Seven 24 20 19 1676
    23 22 Let It Be Me - The Everly Brothers 19 19 1560
    NEW 23 California Here I Come - Freddy Cannon 25 19 1200
    25 24 Be My Guest - Fats Domino 22 720
    18 25 What Do You Want - Adam Faith 17 700
    NEW 26 What In The World's Come Over You - Jack Scott 20 660
    27 27 Lucky Devil - Frank Ifield 23 640
    NEW 28 Looking High High High - Bryan Johnson 20 418
    26 29 Rawhide - Frankie Laine 26 400
    17 30 Heartaches By The Number - Guy Mitchell 27 320
    El Paso - Marty Robbins 28 240
    Time And The River - Nat King Cole 29 160
    Oh Carol - Neil Sedaka 29 160


    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I'm glad lol, takes longer to compile each chart as it is when NME has split sides that need to be averaged, checked and placed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    As far as I can see only 2 EPs and 1 LP, all by Elvis, made serious inroads into the singles chart before 'Twist and Shout' - so not a big issue.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    As mentioned above guys in respect of Cliff's EP, I have gone back to the posts on here and amended the chart for Jan 30th, placing Cliff at 13 and The Avons at 14, and also the last week positions in respect of both on the chart for 6th February as I knpow some of you keep a record of these.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The 'just one chart' rule though for EP's has to apply for fairness.

    It is fair to take an accurate average from all other charts available to apply to the one missing chart to give a credible position. But if say two charts do not place the EP, then the average becomes unreliable as it is based on a smaller sample.

    The bottom line is, there is no accurate way to place an EP just as there is no accurate way to place a split sided single. Using an average is really the only means to do both in the fairest manner possible, but an average is only as good as the data supporting it.

    This is the principle I applied from 64 onwards too.

    Last edited by MrTibbs; Wed December 9, 2020, 15:35.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    On the subject of "just one chart" ...

    When RR enters the scene it will be 3 with EPs and 2 without. Then when RM leaves it will be 2 with and 2 without. Then when MM changes it will be 3 with and 1 without.

    Personally I think that once the principle is established that EPs should be included in the Ultimate then an average of the 'withs' should be applied to the 'withouts' however many there are.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I actually think you make a valid point there guys. Where an EP is missing from just one chart an average should be taken and awarded like I did from '64 to balance it out for these years too.

    I will go back and amend the chart for 30th January, I believe the only one thus affected so far. Splodj's calculation is correct it will lift it one place to #13. But one place is one place better

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I agree that any EP up until the end of May 1963 should have an average NME/RM/Disc position assigned to MM. It will make not make much difference though, particularly now when the MM weighting is low. I calculate that on 30th January it would add about 600 points, moving Cliff up just one place. Obviously up to Brian to decide.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Brian, for 30 January 1960, the Expresso Bongo (EP) wasn't on the MM singles chart, but was on the MM EP chart, as Lonnie pointed out above. Therefore, shouldn't this EP be credited in your points total with an average chart position assigned to MM? Just to be consistent with what you were doing earlier with records on the RR EP chart that didn't chart on the RR singles chart. I think it would bump Expresso Bongo up a bit on your Ultimate Chart for this week. Rock on...

    Leave a comment:

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