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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Metalweb
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post

    In a way it was:
    .
    True, and both Marty Wilde and Georgie Fame also got the song into the breakers, the former at the same time as Glen. So sales splitting probably explains the failure of either version to chart properly.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Something that should have been recorded in 1968: Joe Cocker giving his agonised anxt treatment to 'Yummy Yummy Yummy'!
    Joe's facial expressions and hand gestures as he sang had me totally hooked. Magical performer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Metalweb View Post
    It's particularly extraordinary that such a classic, much covered song as "By The Time I Get To Phoenix" was never a hit in this country...
    In a way it was:
    Five weeks on the Breakers list from 27 Jan 1968, peaking in 2nd place
    .

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Something that should have been recorded in 1968: Joe Cocker giving his agonised anxt treatment to 'Yummy Yummy Yummy'!

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    It's particularly extraordinary that such a classic, much covered song as "By The Time I Get To Phoenix" was never a hit in this country...

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Before I post the first 6 charts from 1969 taking us to the end of this phase of the project indulge me again with my usual list of criminally ignored records from 1968. If we didn't have a top thirty accommodating below par ballads and some just awful records (Sue Nicholls springs to mind) there would have been space on the chart for these gems that missed out.

    Angel Pavement - Baby You've Got To Stay
    Dusty Springfield - I Will Come To You
    The Lemon Pipers - Rice Is Nice
    Madeline Bell - I'm Gonna Make You Love Me
    The Montanas - You've Got To Be Loved
    The 5th Dimension - Stoned Soul Picnic
    The Flowerpot Men - In A Moment Of Madness
    The Candy Choir - No Grey Skies
    Glen Campbell - By The Time I Get To Phoenix
    Long John Baldry - When The Sun Comes Shining Through
    Nirvana - Rainbow Chaser
    The Rascals - People Got To Be Free

    Just saying lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by membranemusic View Post
    Graham: as one who was employed by the music industry for many decades, I am afraid I can refute your suggestion that all sales figures are kept in record company archives indefinitely. Companies are obliged to keep several years of data for accounting, auditing and tax reasons, but as soon as those 6 years are up, out they go to the recycling centre. Reason: it costs money to store stuff which has no commercial value in warehouses. The same would apply to digital back-ups of similar vintage. Sorry!
    Lots of companies and institutions deposit records and documents in national and local archive institutions, costing them nothing. Some things like magazines and books have at least 3 statutory sites which they are required to be send a copy. Hence why places have copies of music magazines. If you are still in contact with any places you worked for, then suggest to them to deposit old records in there local archive office. It will cost them nothing and if there is any sensitive data, they can place an embargo as to when the public will be allowed to see it.
    Stuff can often be deposited from law firms after the collapse of say a record store. Indeed many law firms were fundamental in founding some of the archives and libraries. The big record companies also have their own archives. However it's not perfect and some record companies have thrown out master tapes of artists!
    There's tons of material out there. You only have to watch something like the Antiques Roadshow to see some ex employee of some firm that has rescued materials that went to the skip and is now worth a fortune. It's just finding where it's been placed! And if you can see it!

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by membranemusic View Post
    Mr Tibbs: re your suggestion of a version of the chart without RR, I am personally not keen; not because I am particularly fond of RR, but because one cannot deny its existence throughout the 60s. Far more interesting to include the ‘rogue’ charts like Pop Weekly, Music Now, Cashbox etc, although that water has already passed under the bridge, and I am not suggesting you go back now!
    It wasn't Brian's idea it was mine. Based on the fact that as far as the rest of the world is concerned and due to the people who did the first British Hit Singles Book it has become the "official chart" of the 60's despite the fact it was the least accurate and used the smallest of samples. Had the NME increased the chart to a top a top 50, it's unlikely that the BHSB people would have switched from the NME top 30 to the RR. At least not until 1969 when an actual sales based chart was done. Had Melody Maker also not chopped its chart down, it might have replaced the NME and the RR charts in the book. Or if they had found the 31 to 50 part of the charts for 1967, as some people have indeed located some later years of it, then again the larger sample of the Melody Maker might have become "official".

    I did suggest to Brian that only the top ten of the chart (without RR) would do as the top ten is the part that really counts. Removing RR will remove it's slow nature and faults. And should give a better picture of the top selling records of the 60's.
    In anycase Brian has already done the charts with RR, so we would have both as a comparison.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    This is a first for you guys because just like at the end of 1967 MM and the BBC did not compile a chart for this week so The UAC has been compiled from NME and RR who did compile charts.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 28th 1968.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 28th 1968 NME MM RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Lily The Pink - The Scaffold 1 1 8550
    3 2 One Two Three O'Leary - Des O'Connor 2 4 8095
    4 3 Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations 3 2 8065
    2 4 Ain't Got No..I Got Life - Nina Simone 4 3 7780
    6 5 I'm The Urban Spaceman - The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band 5 6 7325
    8 6 Sabre Dance - Love Sculpture 6 5 7210
    5 7 The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Hugo Montenegro 7 8 6755
    14 8 Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da - The Marmalade 8 7 6640
    7 9 May I Have The Next Dream With You - Malcolm Roberts 9 11 6100
    11 10 Race With The Devil - The Gun 10 10 5985
    16 11 Albatross - Fleetwood Mac 12 9 5670
    9 12 I'm A Tiger - Lulu 11 13 5530
    13 13 A Minute Of Your Time - Tom Jones 13 14 5045
    10 14 Breaking Down The Walls Of Heartache - The Bandwagon 15 12 4815
    19 15 Private Number - William Bell and Judy Clay 14 16 4675
    18 16 Love Child - Diana Ross and The Supremes 16 21 3850
    20 17 Son Of A Preacher Man - Dusty Springfield 18 20 3535
    15 18 Eloise - Barry Ryan 19 18 3505
    17 19 Harper Valley P.T.A. - Jeannie C. Riley 20 17 3390
    12 20 This Old Heart Of Mine - The Isley Brothers 21 19 3020
    28 21 OB-La-Di-Ob-La-Da - The Bedrocks 17 30 2885
    21 22 Elenore - The Turtles 27 15 2160
    29 23 I Shall Be Released - The Tremeloes 22 29 1970
    22 24 If I Knew Then What I Know Now - Val Doonican 26 22 1765
    23 25 Quick Joey Small - The Kasenetz-Katz Singing Orchestral Circus 25 25 1710
    30 26 Something's Happening - Herman's Hermits 24 28 1655
    25 27 Stop Her On Sight (SOS) - Edwin Starr 23 1600
    24 28 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 28 24 1195
    RE 29 Atlantis - Donovan 29 23 1080
    26 30 Don't Forget To Catch Me - Cliff Richard 30 26 625
    Neither MM or The BBC compiled a chart for 28th December. So The Ultimate Averaged Chart was compiled from NME and RR.
    For Once In My Life - Stevie Wonder 27 340

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post

    The Beatles should have issued this track in the UK, as it was released in a lot of European countries. Missed out a number one.
    I agree Brian, it was the superior version but EMI missed a trick and Marmalade stole the glory. Similarly I never forgave EMI for not releasing The Long And Winding Road here in 1970.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by membranemusic View Post
    Mr Tibbs: re your suggestion of a version of the chart without RR, I am personally not keen; not because I am particularly fond of RR, but because one cannot deny its existence throughout the 60s. Far more interesting to include the ‘rogue’ charts like Pop Weekly, Music Now, Cashbox etc, although that water has already passed under the bridge, and I am not suggesting you go back now!
    The reason I did not include all the other 'rogue' charts membrane is because they were all transient and as such would detract from year on year consistency. I agree about RR though, I included it because it was a recognised chart from 1960 although yes it was also the weakest and least credible and as such did not really bring much to the averaging process.

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  • brian05
    replied
    I am quite sure that EMI held on to all their Beatles sales.

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  • membranemusic
    replied
    Graham: as one who was employed by the music industry for many decades, I am afraid I can refute your suggestion that all sales figures are kept in record company archives indefinitely. Companies are obliged to keep several years of data for accounting, auditing and tax reasons, but as soon as those 6 years are up, out they go to the recycling centre. Reason: it costs money to store stuff which has no commercial value in warehouses. The same would apply to digital back-ups of similar vintage. Sorry!

    Leave a comment:


  • membranemusic
    replied
    Mr Tibbs: re your suggestion of a version of the chart without RR, I am personally not keen; not because I am particularly fond of RR, but because one cannot deny its existence throughout the 60s. Far more interesting to include the ‘rogue’ charts like Pop Weekly, Music Now, Cashbox etc, although that water has already passed under the bridge, and I am not suggesting you go back now!

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    14 Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da - The Marmalade
    The Beatles should have issued this track in the UK, as it was released in a lot of European countries. Missed out a number one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Brian when you start posting the new early 60's UAC I would start it on a new thread. It will be easier for people to follow them rather than sticking them end of the 1969 chart. Same too for the one without retailer!
    You can post the link(s) to the next UAC on the end of this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    There are 11 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 21st 1968.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 21st 1968 NME MM RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Lily The Pink - The Scaffold 1 1 1 1 16050
    4 2 Ain't Got No..I Got Life - Nina Simone 2 4 2 2 15115
    3 3 One Two Three O'Leary - Des O'Connor 3 2 3 4 15095
    5 4 Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations 4 3 5 3 14480
    2 5 The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Hugo Montenegro 5 5 4 6 14075
    11 6 I'm The Urban Spaceman - The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band 6 6 7 5 13210
    9 7 May I Have The Next Dream With You - Malcolm Roberts 8 7 6 15 12410
    13 8 Sabre Dance - Love Sculpture 7 8 8 7 12390
    10 9 I'm A Tiger - Lulu 9= 9 9 12 11515
    8 10 Breaking Down The Walls Of Heartache - The Bandwagon 11 10 10 11 11150
    14 11 Race With The Devil - The Gun 9= 10 12 8 10905
    6 12 This Old Heart Of Mine - The Isley Brothers 12= 16 11 10 9785
    16 13 A Minute Of Your Time - Tom Jones 14 12 13 16 9575
    21 14 Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da - The Marmalade 12= 13 15 9 9470
    7 15 Eloise - Barry Ryan 15 14 14 18 8755
    24 16 Albatross - Fleetwood Mac 16 15 19 13 7730
    15 17 Harper Valley P.T.A. - Jeannie C. Riley 17 17 17 17 7490
    17 18 Love Child - Diana Ross and The Supremes 18= 19 16 19 7170
    18 19 Private Number - William Bell and Judy Clay 18= 18 22 14 6295
    23 20 Son Of A Preacher Man - Dusty Springfield 20 20 19 20 6135
    12 21 Elenore - The Turtles 21 21 18 21 6100
    19 22 If I Knew Then What I Know Now - Val Doonican 22 22 21 24 4895
    26 23 Quick Joey Small - The Kasenetz-Katz Singing Orchestral Circus 23 23 24 22 4115
    22 24 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 24 27 23 23 3480
    NEW 25 Stop Her On Sight (SOS) - Edwin Starr 25 24 28 25 2660
    25 26 Don't Forget To Catch Me - Cliff Richard 26 28 26 28 2105
    20 27 All Along The Watchtower - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 28= 24 1750
    NEW 28 Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da - The Bedrocks 28= 26 29 1500
    NEW 29 I Shall Be Released - The Tremeloes 27 25 29 1370
    NEW 30 Something's Happening - Herman's Hermits 30 27 1200
    Atlantis - Donovan 28= 29 26 825
    I'm In A Different World - The Four Tops 27 340
    On Mother Kelly's Doorstep - Danny La Rue 30 250
    Toy - The Casuals 30 200
    With A Little Help From My Friends - Joe Cocker 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah I noticed that too on entering the figures brain. Another BBC miscalculation there.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Again the BBC chart appears to make no sense in the lower reaches. Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell (- 29 28) being equal at 30 with Leapy Lee (30 30 -)!!!, whereas The Marbles (- 27 30) which would really be equal on points to Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell not showing?
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Tue December 1, 2020, 00:01.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    Interesting to see that the NME were still charting albums on the singles chart as late as December 1968. Is 'The Beatles' album the last that charted?
    I believe it was Robbie. Abbey Road didn't chart on the singles chart in 1969 and nothing afterwards either.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    Interesting to see that the NME were still charting albums on the singles chart as late as December 1968. Is 'The Beatles' album the last that charted?
    Last edited by Robbie; Mon November 30, 2020, 19:40.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    I agree with Robbie's comment earlier in that Diana Ross and The Supremes Love Child was their strongest single in well over a year. All singles since Reflections in the summer of 1967 had been really weak by their standards.
    It was a real pity that Apple didn't release The Beatles original Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da as a single as it was far and away the best version. I think The Bedrock's version, still to chart, was even superior to Marmalade's.
    In too comes the sublime preacher Man from Dusty Springfield. Sheer Class ! Little did we know that was gonna be her last Top 30 single until the eighties come back, and magic also materialised this week in the form of Fleetwood Mac's Albatross. Bellissimo !

    There are 10 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 14th 1968.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 14th 1968 NME MM RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 Lily The Pink - The Scaffold 1 1 1 1 16050
    1 2 The Good The Bad And The Ugly - Hugo Montenegro 2 2 2 2 15515
    6 3 One Two Three O'Leary - Des O'Connor 3 3 3 4 14895
    7 4 Ain't Got No..I Got Life - Nina Simone 4 5 4 3 14330
    11 5 Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations 5 4 5 5 14110
    4 6 This Old Heart Of Mine - The Isley Brothers 6 8 5 7 13140
    3 7 Eloise - Barry Ryan 7 10 7 8 12155
    5 8 Breaking Down The Walls Of Heartache - The Bandwagon 8= 6 10 10 12035
    10 9 May I Have The Next Dream With You - Malcolm Roberts 8= 9 8 9 12020
    9 10 I'm A Tiger - Lulu 10= 7 9 12 11915
    15 11 I'm The Urban Spaceman - The Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band 10= 11 11 6 11125
    8 12 Elenore - The Turtles 12 12 12 14 9995
    23 13 Sabre Dance - Love Sculpture 13 13 16 11 9050
    16 14 Race With The Devil - The Gun 14 15 14 13 8980
    13 15 Harper Valley P.T.A. - Jeannie C. Riley 15 16 13 15 8860
    19 16 A Minute Of Your Time - Tom Jones 16 14 17 16 8175
    21 17 Love Child - Diana Ross and The Supremes 17 18 15 17 7790
    22 18 Private Number - William Bell and Judy Clay 18 17 20 19 6570
    14 19 If I Knew Then What I Know Now - Val Doonican 19 19 18 21 6500
    12 20 All Along The Watchtower - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 20 20 19 23 5880
    NEW 21 Ob-La-Di-Ob-La-Da - The Marmalade 22 22 22 22 4815
    17 22 Those Were The Days - Mary Hopkin 21 26 21 18 4605
    NEW 23 Son Of A Preacher Man - Dusty Springfield 23 21 25 24 4095
    NEW 24 Albatross - Fleetwood Mac 24 28 23 20 3535
    NEW 25 Don't Forget To Catch Me - Cliff Richard 26 27 24 29 2720
    27 26 Quick Joey Small - The Kasenetz-Katz Singing Orchestral Circus 25 23 28 27 2690
    18 27 With A Little Help From My Friends - Joe Cocker 27= 26 25 1760
    30 28 Les Bicyclettes De Belsize - Engelbert Humperdinck 27= 25 26 1625
    29 29 Atlantis - Donovan 29 24 1400
    20 30 Only One Woman - The Marbles 27 30 1085
    The Beatles (LP) - The Beatles 29 400
    You're All I Need To Get By - Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell 30= 29 28 755
    Little Arrows - Leapy Lee 30= 30 30 450

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    One of my memories of 1963 is going into a friend's house and seeing Beatles records which the family were buying in anticipation of the day that they could afford something to play them on!

    By the way, it could be claimed (at a stretch!) that the first time a Lennon/McCartney composition got into the charts was in March 1962 when the album ‘Adam Faith’ skirted the LP Top 20, because the middle eight of the track “I’ve Just Fallen For Someone” was written by John Lennon (but uncredited).

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    So, broadly we are all singing from the same hymn sheet here. Interesting point Splodge about the UAC being used instead of Guinness lol, they are certainly more 'official' than the 'official'.

    Late 1963 was also the year when I really got into music at the age of 10 and I have to thank The Beatles for that. I had heard everything that had gone before either on Luxembourg or records my parents bought but suddenly I heard She Loves You and I was catapulted into a world of music that enveloped me and never looked back.

    I got She Loves You and the Twist And Shout EP for Christmas that year and a few days later went and got myself I Want To Hold Your Hand. Magical Stuff !

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Splodj, I believe you can add A Hard Days Night and Help to your list above both debuting at #1 on all charts except RR
    You are absolutely right and I should have included them in my list as described.

    However, A Hard Days Night was 3 on RR so the BBC didn't need to override their normal calculations. With Help they did; spookily it was a case of 1115 versus 2221 which I gave in the example above as the tipping point.

    These two illustrate perfectly what I was trying to say - that the problem did not arise simply because RR was odd-one-out, but only when it was adrift by a large margin.
    Last edited by Splodj; Mon November 30, 2020, 14:11.

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