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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Splodj
    replied
    What is the rationale behind only moderators being allowed to comment? Are their comments deemed to be more worthy, or are they supposed to confine their comments strictly to matters of moderation?

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    Wayne from HelpDesk said,
    I turned this feature off a few weeks ago - only moderation team members should be able to "Comment" now.

    Graham76man - I did not know you were a moderator!! Congratulations.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Yes I think the 'Top Ten of Music (1993)' is based on the total sales of records released in 1967, whereas my list is sales within 1967. They are compatible with each other, just that the former has Hello Goodbye and Magical Mystery Tour appearing - caused by the significant sales of both after December 1967.
    Last edited by Splodj; Tue November 3, 2020, 14:21.

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  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Don't know why? I don't think it's a paid member thing. Could be your browser. If it's not a paid member thing, or you are a paid member, post on the help thread saying you can't comment.
    I had the EP clocking up sales of 379K, but there was a sales reduction the week before Christmas overall. Could have been a weather issue affecting sales, or something else.
    Point based best seller lists have the problem of single sales overall sales. The points for a number one remain the same. The sales of records do not stay the same. You can sell 600K one week then next week 100K.
    Incidentally Hello, Goodbye I believe suffered from poor distribution. EMI couldn't get over 300K to the shops after the second week at the top. They were only managing three quarters of it.

  • brian05
    replied
    Singles were 6 shillings and 8 old pence (0.33) while the EP was 19 shilling and 6 old pence (0.98). The EP was that price because it included a 32 page book and 4 pages of lyrics. A normal EP was 10 shillings and 6 old pence (0.53).

    The imported MMT LP was 47 shillings and 6 old pence (2.38).
    Last edited by brian05; Tue November 3, 2020, 10:56.

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  • brian05
    replied
    To Graham76man, how come you can comment but I can't? That facility is turned off for me.

    It depends when the top selling lists end - a cut-off date of 31st December or whether sales are included for the following year as well. It then becomes a list of the best-selling records issued in a given year. That could explain the difference in these lists. Some of course were points based.

    As for MMT EP - By the date of release, it had advance orders of 400,000 and 600,000 had been shipped by mid-January 1968. [see The Long And Winding Road book]. [The Rock Lists Album] top 100 of the sixties had the EP at number 50. So final sales could be around 750,000 by 1993.

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  • Robbie
    replied
    A question to anyone who was buying singles at the time: how much more expensive would the price of 'Magical Mystery Tour' EP have been compared to the price of a standard single?

    It's also interesting to see how much better the EP is performing on the Record Retailer chart when compared to the other two charts.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    There are a massive16 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 23rd 1967.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 23rd 1967 NME MM RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Hello Goodbye - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 16050
    4 2 If The Whole World Stopped Lovin' - Val Doonican 2 2 2 4 15345
    2 3 Let The Heartaches Begin - Long John Baldry 4 3 4 6 14475
    7 4 I'm Coming Home - Tom Jones 3 5 5 2 14165
    5 5 Something's Gotten Hold Of My Heart - Gene Pitney 5 4 6 5 13860
    6 6 Careless Hands - Des O'Connor 6 6 3 11 13700
    15 7 Magical Mystery Tour (EP) - The Beatles 7 8 10 3 12230
    3 8 Everybody Knows - The Dave Clark Five 9 7 8 13 12080
    8 9 World - The Bee Gees 10 9 7 14 11845
    10 10 Thank U Very Much - Scaffold 8 10 9 9 11570
    14 11 Kites - Simon Dupree and The Big Sound 13 11 11 15 10360
    11 12 Daydream Believer - The Monkees 11 13 12 8 10305
    9 13 All My Love - Cliff Richard 12 12 15 7 9840
    13 14 Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush - Traffic 14 16 13 10 9285
    12 15 The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck 15 17 14 12 8665
    22 16 Walk Away Renee - The Four Tops 16 14 16 16 8425
    19 17 In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross and The Supremes 17 15 17 17 7890
    16 18 Love Is All Around - The Troggs 20 20 18 25 5960
    25 19 Tin Soldier - The Small Faces 18 22 20 18 5655
    18 20 I Feel Love Coming On - Felice Taylor 19 23 19 19 5620
    17 21 Baby Now That I've Found You - The Foundations 21 21 23 23 4680
    20 22 There Must be A Way - Frankie Vaughan 22 25 22 20 4385
    30 23 The Ballad Of Bonnie And Clyde - Georgie Fame 23 18 29 22 3865
    28 24 Jackie - Scott Walker 25 19 27 29 3570
    24 25 So Tired - Frankie Vaughan 24 21 21 3350
    26 26 Big Spender - Shirley Bassey 26 27 24 24 3145
    21 27 Zabadak - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 27 24 28 2150
    23 28 There Is A Mountain - Donovan 29 29 25 1900
    29 29 Susannah's Still Alive - Dave Davies 28 26 27 1340
    RE 30 Soul Man - Sam and Dave 26 1250
    The Other Man's Grass - Petula Clark 30 28 28 855
    Autumn Almanac - The Kinks 30 30 450
    I Only Live To Love You - Cilla Black 26 425
    La Derniere Valse - Mireille Mathieu 30 85

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  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Made up sales charts by the Record Industry should never be trusted. So in the words of Shrek "You thought wrong".

  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Since there were no charts at the time actually counting record sales this was either made up from points, or based on shipping figures. Including sales from 1968. It's highly unlikely the EP would have sold enough to make the top ten of the year in about 3 weeks! It wasn't even number one (officially).
    It doesn't even make the top 100 of the year on the same chart.
    You can see the full charts from 1967 and the best sellers over over 220 that sold 250K from Thursday night on my blog.

    And there seem to be competing lists of even "official figures" as Splodj list is not the same.
    However even my list is also based on sales inside the top 100 charts and takes no account of the sales outside them. Which were as high as 6K at times.

    Based on Brian's 535 shops if they all sold 30 copies each of the number one that would by 16,050 sold. So 6,000 divided by 8,000 shops is actually zero copies sold by any shops. Well it's 0.75 of a copy, but I don't believe anyone bought three quarters of a record. But I could be wrong!!
    Last edited by Graham76man; Tue November 3, 2020, 00:43. Reason: Extra details

  • brian05
    replied
    According to the Top Ten of Music (1993) the top singles of 1967 were,

    1 Engelbert Humperdinck - Release Me
    2 Engelbert Humperdinck - The Last Waltz
    3 Englebert Humperdinck - There Goes My Everything
    4 The Beatles - Hello Goodbye
    5 The Monkees - I'm A Believer
    6 Procol Harum - A Whiter Shade Of Pale
    7 Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String
    8 The Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour (Double EP)
    9 The Beatles - All You Need Is Love
    10 Petula Clark - This Is My Song

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    In come The Four Tops with the superlative Walk Away Renee. Pure Ear Candy.

    There are 12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 16th 1967.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 16th 1967 NME MM RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Hello Goodbye - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 16050
    2 2 Let The Heartaches Begin - Long John Baldry 2 2 2 3 15430
    3 3 Everybody Knows - The Dave Clark Five 3 4 4 2 14615
    4 4 If The Whole World Stopped Lovin' - Val Doonican 4 5 3 4 14495
    5 5 Something's Gotten Hold Of My Heart - Gene Pitney 5 3 6 6 13975
    6 6 Careless Hands - Des O'Connor 6 6 5 7 13540
    7 7 I'm Coming Home - Tom Jones 7 7 7 5 13010
    9 8 World - The Bee Gees 8 8 8 9 12220
    8 9 All My Love - Cliff Richard 9 9 10 11 11350
    15 10 Thank U Very Much - The Scaffold 10 12 9 10 11085
    13 11 Daydream Believer - The Monkees 11 11 12 13 10280
    10 12 The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck 14 13 11 16 9875
    19 13 Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush - Traffic 12 14 15 8 9355
    18 14 Kites - Simon Dupree and The Big Sound 13 15 13 12 9315
    NEW 15 Magical Mystery Tour (EP) - The Beatles 16 10 17 20 8635
    11 16 Love Is All Around - The Troggs 15 16 14 15 8610
    12 17 Baby Now That I've Found You - The Foundations 17 17 16 17 7740
    14 18 I Feel Coming On - Felice Taylor 18 19 18 14 7095
    24 19 In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross and The Supremes 19 18 19 18 6705
    22 20 There Must Be A Way - Frankie Vaughan 20 22 21 19 5320
    16 21 Zabadak - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 22 21 20 4750
    NEW 22 Walk Away Renee - The Four Tops 21 20 27 25 3710
    17 23 There Is A Mountain - Donovan 23 27 23 22 3565
    21 24 So Tired - Frankie Vaughan 24 28 22 24 3445
    29 25 Tin Soldier - The Small Faces 26 23 26 29 3020
    25 26 Big Spender - Shirley Bassey 25 29 25 21 2750
    20 27 Autumn Almanac - The Kinks 27 30 24 28 2205
    30 28 Jackie - Scott Walker 28 24 28 2150
    NEW 29 Susannah's Still Alive - Dave Davies 30 24 1400
    NEW 30 The Ballad Of Bonnie And Clyde - Georgie Fame 26 1000
    Massachusetts - The Bee Gees 29 23 680
    Wild Honey - The Beach Boys 29 500
    I Can See For Miles - The Who 26 425
    Just Loving You - Anita Harris 27 340
    Soul Man - Sam and Dave 30 30 335



    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I thought it was this ...

    1 Engelbert Humperdinck - Release Me
    2 Engelbert Humperdinck - The Last Waltz
    3 Englebert Humperdinck - There Goes My Everything
    4 The Monkees - I'm A Believer
    5 Procol Harum - A Whiter Shade Of Pale
    6 Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String
    7 The Beatles - All You Need Is Love
    8 Petula Clark - This Is My Song
    9 The Beatles - Penny Lane / Strawberry Fields Forever
    10 Frank and Nancy Sinatra - Somethin' Stupid

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    The Top Ten Best Sellers of 1967

    1 Engelbert Humperdinck - Release Me
    2 Engelbert Humperdinck - The Last Waltz
    3 Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String
    4 Procol Harum - A Whiter Shade of Pale
    5 The Beatles - Penny Lane / Strawberry Fields Forever
    6 The Beatles - Hello, Goodbye
    7 Scott McKenzie - San Francisco (Be Sure To Wear Some Flowers In Your Hair)
    8 The Monkees - I'm A Believer / (I'm Not Your) Stepping Stone
    9 Engelbert Humperdinck - There Goes My Everything
    10 The Bee Gees - Massachusetts (The Lights Went Out In)

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    The ban on miming had been in effect for some time. Earlier in the year Disc and Music Echo interviewed the director of the Strawberry Fields Forever and Penny Lane videos, who complained that he had wanted the Beatles to mime the songs but had been told that if they did the videos could not be shown on TOTP.

    Simon Dee was sacked from Radio 1 for playing Jackie on Midday Spin.
    Last edited by Splodj; Mon November 2, 2020, 12:08.

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    The film of the Beatles singing "Hello, Goodbye" (coma correctly inserted between the two words), the one in the Sargent Pepper clothes, was banned from TOTP, not for the usual reasons, but because the Musician's Union wouldn't except it because they were miming on the film.
    Meanwhile Scott Walker's new single was banned after Radio Two listeners objected to it after a few plays on the radio. The BBC called it a "nasty song". It was a translation of a French song which contained the words "queers, brothels and virgins". Disc and Music Echo (9 Dec) reported that even the title was controversial. It should have been "Jacky". All the scheduled TV appearances of Scott singing the song were also pulled as a result. The ban (not a complete one) pushed the record into the top five.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks membrane for that encouragement and yes I will be sticking with this project that so many enjoy.
    I will not be including any of the smaller charts in the sample for any years you will be glad to know, and will continue to stick with the major charts only as the others are just transient for a short time and I want to keep consistency throughout.

    For the record, Herb Alpert will take top billing on August 31st. Even allowing for the Bee Gees to hold joint #1 on RR that week as Dave suggested, which has never been corroborated, it will still not give it sufficient points to overtake Herb.

    Yes, I too have heard of the alleged mix up at NME but we have what we have historically to go on and thus Herb is1, Bee Gees 2, and Beach Boys 3. Remember as things stood the Bee Gees were not factually at #1 on any of the three charts that week, Tom Jones was never in the running irregardless of a possible mix up, But the consolation is that the Bee Gees will go to #1 on Sept 7th.

    I'm working on September 1968 now so am only a few months away compilation wise from going back to do 1960 to 1963 and for the very first time will be including the RR and RM charts into the averaged figures as for a spell between 60 and 62 these were both omitted by the BBC so the averaged chart might reflect even more differences between it and the BBC chart.
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun November 1, 2020, 18:17.

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Robbie View Post
    I find it strange how the EP market suddenly declined around the mid 60s. At one time it was a lot more vibrant than the LP market, and with stronger sellers. Did the public really just lose interest overnight or did labels decide they wanted to phase them out in favour of the more profitable album?

    From what I gather the EP was not intended at the start to have more tracks on the same size of plastic as a single, but to have a full piece of classical music on one side. But they started to be marketed as "mini albums". However to get the tracks on meant a loss in quality. If you put an EP on a hi-fi system and afterwards put on a standard single. Then the single will blast you out! Being much louder than any EP. So the LP which could give the length and keep the quality of sound was much better than the EP. As stereo hi-fi systems grew more popular the pitfalls of the EP became more known and they lost ground. Many EP also became novelty records, or for films, opera and classical pieces. Plus children's TV shows for example: Thunderbirds, Capitan Scarlet and Stingray all had EP's with episodes on them.

    Even that Beatles EP was linked to the Magical Mystery Tour film and "fun" novelty tracks on them. I suspect the Beatles did it rather than spend a great deal of time in the studio doing a new album, since after Sargent Pepper they knew they couldn't just throw together a collection of tracks together and make an album that way. The critics would have had them for breakfast if they did that!

    If you were going to make serious money and the best quality music an LP became the way to do it. The EP was just a gimmick in that respect.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    For those who can't wait to find out I now know who finally took the throne on the infamous chart of 31st August 1968 Ha Ha !
    We discussed this on the P/TOTP thread and, like Graham, I think it should have been the Bee Gees and that this is one of the times when MM got it wrong.

    What cannot be disputed is that the Bee Gees were heading for number one, so it just a question of when they arrived. Also undisputed is that the 'Top Pops' chart had the Bee Gees at number one this week.

    Dave Taylor also has a couple of interesting comments about this week. First he says that RR originally had a tie between the Beach Boys and The Bee Gees. I find this difficult to believe because (if I understand the RR tiebreak procedure correctly) they would have broken the tie in favour of the Bee Gees.

    But the other thing Dave Taylor says is highly plausible. This is that NME incorrectly applied points to Tom Jones that should have gone to Tommy James. This looks likely because NME putting Tom Jones at number one looks out of kilter considering that the other charts put him at number 5. Dave says that if they had not made this mistake NME would also have put the Bee Gees at number one.

    I am not at all suggesting that we should trust this claim enough to change the NME positions, but it is a contributory factor in my personal resolution of the infamous 3-way tie.
    Last edited by Splodj; Sun November 1, 2020, 16:01.

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  • membranemusic
    replied
    Mr Tibbs you must carry on with this wonderful project. I can quite understand why you did not include the Music Echo charts to December ‘65 with their small samples (a decision echoed by the BBC), but it would have provided a good laugh with their position disparity of up 20-30 places on some records compared to all other papers.
    Can I take it that you will exclude Top Pops/Music Now charts from 1968 on the basis of small samples (but big shops?)?

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
    Record Retailer ended it's EP chart that same week. This allowed the new Beatles double EP to enter the Record Retailer singles chart. The first EP to do so. The EP was released the week the final chart was published. I suspect EMI might have waited for them to close the chart down. It was clearly on the cards as it had remained static for the last few months with no records entering for a long time.
    I find it strange how the EP market suddenly declined around the mid 60s. At one time it was a lot more vibrant than the LP market, and with stronger sellers. Did the public really just lose interest overnight or did labels decide they wanted to phase them out in favour of the more profitable album?

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    It should be The Bee Gees - Gotta Get A Message To You

  • Graham76man
    replied
    Record Retailer ended it's EP chart that same week. This allowed the new Beatles double EP to enter the Record Retailer singles chart. The first EP to do so. The EP was released the week the final chart was published. I suspect EMI might have waited for them to close the chart down. It was clearly on the cards as it had remained static for the last few months with no records entering for a long time.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    For those who can't wait to find out I now know who finally took the throne on the infamous chart of 31st August 1968 Ha Ha !

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    There are 11 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 9th 1967.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 9th 1967 NME MM RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    3 1 Hello Goodbye - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 16050
    1 2 Let The Heartaches Begin - Long John Baldry 2 2 2 2 15515
    2 3 Everybody Knows - The Dave Clark Five 3 3 3 3 14980
    4 4 If The Whole World Stopped Lovin' - Val Doonican 4 5 4 4 14245
    8 5 Something's Gotten Hold Of My Heart - Gene Pitney 5 4 5 5 14110
    10 6 Careless Hands - Des O'Connor 6 6 6 6 13375
    13 7 I'm Coming Home - Tom Jones 7 7 8 10 12335
    9 8 All My Love - Cliff Richard 8 8 7 11 12300
    15 9 World - The Bee Gees 9 10 9 9 11570
    7 10 The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck 11 9 10 13 11180
    5 11 Love Is All Around - The Troggs 10 11 11 7 11040
    6 12 Baby Now That I've Found You - The Foundations 12 12 13 8 10255
    18 13 Daydream Believer - The Monkees 13 13 12 15 9710
    14 14 I Feel Love Coming On - Felice Taylor 14 14 17 12 8515
    25 15 Thank U Very Much - The Scaffold 15 17 14 14 8495
    11 16 Zabadak - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 16 16 16 16 8025
    12 17 There Is A Mountain - Donovan 17 18 15 21 7450
    24 18 Kites - Simon Dupree and The Big Sound 18 19 19 17 6590
    27 19 Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush - Traffic 19 15 24 19 5970
    16 20 Autumn Almanac - The Kinks 20 23 18 20 5785
    22 21 So Tired - Frankie Vaughan 23 22 20 26 4975
    19 22 There Must Be A Way - Frankie Vaughan 21 20 23 22 4965
    20 23 I Can See For Miles - The Who 24 25 21 23 4380
    29 24 In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross and The Supremes 22 21 27 18 4105
    23 25 Big Spender - Shirley Bassey 25 24 22 27 3990
    17 26 Massachusetts - The Bee Gees 26 26 25 24 3095
    21 27 San Franciscan Nights - Eric Burdon and The Animals 28 30 26 28 1705
    NEW 28 Wild Honey - The Beach Boys 29 29 28 29 1320
    NEW 29 Tin Soldier - The Small Faces 30 26 1000
    NEW 30 Jackie - Scott Walker 28 600
    You've Not Changed - Sandie Shaw 29 30 585
    Soul Man - Sam and Dave 27 25 510
    I Only Live To Love You - Cilla Black 30 250

    Leave a comment:

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