The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Splodj]

What is the rationale behind only moderators being allowed to comment? Are their comments deemed to be more worthy, or are they supposed to confine their comments strictly to matters of moderation?

[brian05]

Wayne from HelpDesk said,
I turned this feature off a few weeks ago - only moderation team members should be able to "Comment" now.

Graham76man - I did not know you were a moderator!! Congratulations.

[Splodj]

Yes I think the 'Top Ten of Music (1993)' is based on the total sales of records released in 1967, whereas my list is sales within 1967. They are compatible with each other, just that the former has Hello Goodbye and Magical Mystery Tour appearing - caused by the significant sales of both after December 1967.

[Graham76man]

Don't know why? I don't think it's a paid member thing. Could be your browser. If it's not a paid member thing, or you are a paid member, post on the help thread saying you can't comment.
I had the EP clocking up sales of 379K, but there was a sales reduction the week before Christmas overall. Could have been a weather issue affecting sales, or something else.
Point based best seller lists have the problem of single sales overall sales. The points for a number one remain the same. The sales of records do not stay the same. You can sell 600K one week then next week 100K.
Incidentally Hello, Goodbye I believe suffered from poor distribution. EMI couldn't get over 300K to the shops after the second week at the top. They were only managing three quarters of it.

[brian05]

Singles were 6 shillings and 8 old pence (£0.33) while the EP was 19 shilling and 6 old pence (£0.98). The EP was that price because it included a 32 page book and 4 pages of lyrics. A normal EP was 10 shillings and 6 old pence (£0.53).

The imported MMT LP was 47 shillings and 6 old pence (£2.38).

[brian05]

To Graham76man, how come you can comment but I can't? That facility is turned off for me.

It depends when the top selling lists end - a cut-off date of 31st December or whether sales are included for the following year as well. It then becomes a list of the best-selling records issued in a given year. That could explain the difference in these lists. Some of course were points based.

As for MMT EP - By the date of release, it had advance orders of 400,000 and 600,000 had been shipped by mid-January 1968. [see The Long And Winding Road book]. [The Rock Lists Album] top 100 of the sixties had the EP at number 50. So final sales could be around 750,000 by 1993.

[Robbie]

A question to anyone who was buying singles at the time: how much more expensive would the price of 'Magical Mystery Tour' EP have been compared to the price of a standard single?

It's also interesting to see how much better the EP is performing on the Record Retailer chart when compared to the other two charts.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

There are a massive16 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 23rd 1967.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 23rd 1967								NME	MM	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC		TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Hello Goodbye - The Beatles					1	1	1	1	16050
4	2	If The Whole World Stopped Lovin' - Val Doonican					2	2	2	4	15345
2	3	Let The Heartaches Begin - Long John Baldry					4	3	4	6	14475
7	4	I'm Coming Home - Tom Jones					3	5	5	2	14165
5	5	Something's Gotten Hold Of My Heart - Gene Pitney					5	4	6	5	13860
6	6	Careless Hands - Des O'Connor					6	6	3	11	13700
15	7	Magical Mystery Tour (EP) - The Beatles					7	8	10	3	12230
3	8	Everybody Knows - The Dave Clark Five					9	7	8	13	12080
8	9	World - The Bee Gees					10	9	7	14	11845
10	10	Thank U Very Much - Scaffold					8	10	9	9	11570
14	11	Kites - Simon Dupree and The Big Sound					13	11	11	15	10360
11	12	Daydream Believer - The Monkees					11	13	12	8	10305
9	13	All My Love - Cliff Richard					12	12	15	7	9840
13	14	Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush - Traffic					14	16	13	10	9285
12	15	The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck					15	17	14	12	8665
22	16	Walk Away Renee - The Four Tops					16	14	16	16	8425
19	17	In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross and The Supremes					17	15	17	17	7890
16	18	Love Is All Around - The Troggs					20	20	18	25	5960
25	19	Tin Soldier - The Small Faces					18	22	20	18	5655
18	20	I Feel Love Coming On - Felice Taylor					19	23	19	19	5620
17	21	Baby Now That I've Found You - The Foundations					21	21	23	23	4680
20	22	There Must be A Way - Frankie Vaughan					22	25	22	20	4385
30	23	The Ballad Of Bonnie And Clyde - Georgie Fame					23	18	29	22	3865
28	24	Jackie - Scott Walker					25	19	27	29	3570
24	25	So Tired - Frankie Vaughan					24		21	21	3350
26	26	Big Spender - Shirley Bassey					26	27	24	24	3145
21	27	Zabadak - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					27	24	28		2150
23	28	There Is A Mountain - Donovan					29	29	25		1900
29	29	Susannah's Still Alive - Dave Davies					28	26		27	1340
RE	30	Soul Man - Sam and Dave							26		1250
		The Other Man's Grass - Petula Clark					30	28		28	855
		Autumn Almanac - The Kinks						30	30		450
		I Only Live To Love You - Cilla Black								26	425
		La Derniere Valse - Mireille Mathieu								30	85

[Graham76man]

Made up sales charts by the Record Industry should never be trusted. So in the words of Shrek "You thought wrong".

[Graham76man]

Since there were no charts at the time actually counting record sales this was either made up from points, or based on shipping figures. Including sales from 1968. It's highly unlikely the EP would have sold enough to make the top ten of the year in about 3 weeks! It wasn't even number one (officially).
It doesn't even make the top 100 of the year on the same chart.
You can see the full charts from 1967 and the best sellers over over 220 that sold 250K from Thursday night on my blog.

And there seem to be competing lists of even "official figures" as Splodj list is not the same.
However even my list is also based on sales inside the top 100 charts and takes no account of the sales outside them. Which were as high as 6K at times.

Based on Brian's 535 shops if they all sold 30 copies each of the number one that would by 16,050 sold. So 6,000 divided by 8,000 shops is actually zero copies sold by any shops. Well it's 0.75 of a copy, but I don't believe anyone bought three quarters of a record. But I could be wrong!!

[brian05]

According to the Top Ten of Music (1993) the top singles of 1967 were,

1 Engelbert Humperdinck - Release Me
2 Engelbert Humperdinck - The Last Waltz
3 Englebert Humperdinck - There Goes My Everything
4 The Beatles - Hello Goodbye
5 The Monkees - I'm A Believer
6 Procol Harum - A Whiter Shade Of Pale
7 Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String
8 The Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour (Double EP)
9 The Beatles - All You Need Is Love
10 Petula Clark - This Is My Song

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

In come The Four Tops with the superlative Walk Away Renee. Pure Ear Candy.

There are 12 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 16th 1967.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 16th 1967								NME	MM	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC		TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Hello Goodbye - The Beatles					1	1	1	1	16050
2	2	Let The Heartaches Begin - Long John Baldry					2	2	2	3	15430
3	3	Everybody Knows - The Dave Clark Five					3	4	4	2	14615
4	4	If The Whole World Stopped Lovin' - Val Doonican					4	5	3	4	14495
5	5	Something's Gotten Hold Of My Heart - Gene Pitney					5	3	6	6	13975
6	6	Careless Hands - Des O'Connor					6	6	5	7	13540
7	7	I'm Coming Home - Tom Jones					7	7	7	5	13010
9	8	World - The Bee Gees					8	8	8	9	12220
8	9	All My Love - Cliff Richard					9	9	10	11	11350
15	10	Thank U Very Much - The Scaffold					10	12	9	10	11085
13	11	Daydream Believer - The Monkees					11	11	12	13	10280
10	12	The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck					14	13	11	16	9875
19	13	Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush - Traffic					12	14	15	8	9355
18	14	Kites - Simon Dupree and The Big Sound					13	15	13	12	9315
NEW	15	Magical Mystery Tour (EP) - The Beatles					16	10	17	20	8635
11	16	Love Is All Around - The Troggs					15	16	14	15	8610
12	17	Baby Now That I've Found You - The Foundations					17	17	16	17	7740
14	18	I Feel Coming On - Felice Taylor					18	19	18	14	7095
24	19	In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross and The Supremes					19	18	19	18	6705
22	20	There Must Be A Way - Frankie Vaughan					20	22	21	19	5320
16	21	Zabadak - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					22	21	20		4750
NEW	22	Walk Away Renee - The Four Tops					21	20	27	25	3710
17	23	There Is A Mountain - Donovan					23	27	23	22	3565
21	24	So Tired - Frankie Vaughan					24	28	22	24	3445
29	25	Tin Soldier - The Small Faces					26	23	26	29	3020
25	26	Big Spender - Shirley Bassey					25	29	25	21	2750
20	27	Autumn Almanac - The Kinks					27	30	24	28	2205
30	28	Jackie - Scott Walker					28	24	28		2150
NEW	29	Susannah's Still Alive - Dave Davies					30	24			1400
NEW	30	The Ballad Of Bonnie And Clyde - Georgie Fame						26			1000
		Massachusetts - The Bee Gees					29			23	680
		Wild Honey - The Beach Boys							29		500
		I Can See For Miles - The Who								26	425
		Just Loving You - Anita Harris								27	340
		Soul Man - Sam and Dave							30	30	335

[Splodj]

I thought it was this ...

1 Engelbert Humperdinck - Release Me
2 Engelbert Humperdinck - The Last Waltz
3 Englebert Humperdinck - There Goes My Everything
4 The Monkees - I'm A Believer
5 Procol Harum - A Whiter Shade Of Pale
6 Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String
7 The Beatles - All You Need Is Love
8 Petula Clark - This Is My Song
9 The Beatles - Penny Lane / Strawberry Fields Forever
10 Frank and Nancy Sinatra - Somethin' Stupid

[Graham76man]

The Top Ten Best Sellers of 1967

1 Engelbert Humperdinck - Release Me
2 Engelbert Humperdinck - The Last Waltz
3 Sandie Shaw - Puppet On A String
4 Procol Harum - A Whiter Shade of Pale
5 The Beatles - Penny Lane / Strawberry Fields Forever
6 The Beatles - Hello, Goodbye
7 Scott McKenzie - San Francisco (Be Sure To Wear Some Flowers In Your Hair)
8 The Monkees - I'm A Believer / (I'm Not Your) Stepping Stone
9 Engelbert Humperdinck - There Goes My Everything
10 The Bee Gees - Massachusetts (The Lights Went Out In)

[Splodj]

The ban on miming had been in effect for some time. Earlier in the year Disc and Music Echo interviewed the director of the Strawberry Fields Forever and Penny Lane videos, who complained that he had wanted the Beatles to mime the songs but had been told that if they did the videos could not be shown on TOTP.

Simon Dee was sacked from Radio 1 for playing Jackie on Midday Spin.

[Graham76man]

The film of the Beatles singing "Hello, Goodbye" (coma correctly inserted between the two words), the one in the Sargent Pepper clothes, was banned from TOTP, not for the usual reasons, but because the Musician's Union wouldn't except it because they were miming on the film.
Meanwhile Scott Walker's new single was banned after Radio Two listeners objected to it after a few plays on the radio. The BBC called it a "nasty song". It was a translation of a French song which contained the words "queers, brothels and virgins". Disc and Music Echo (9 Dec) reported that even the title was controversial. It should have been "Jacky". All the scheduled TV appearances of Scott singing the song were also pulled as a result. The ban (not a complete one) pushed the record into the top five.

[MrTibbs]

Thanks membrane for that encouragement and yes I will be sticking with this project that so many enjoy.
I will not be including any of the smaller charts in the sample for any years you will be glad to know, and will continue to stick with the major charts only as the others are just transient for a short time and I want to keep consistency throughout.

For the record, Herb Alpert will take top billing on August 31st. Even allowing for the Bee Gees to hold joint #1 on RR that week as Dave suggested, which has never been corroborated, it will still not give it sufficient points to overtake Herb.

Yes, I too have heard of the alleged mix up at NME but we have what we have historically to go on and thus Herb is1, Bee Gees 2, and Beach Boys 3. Remember as things stood the Bee Gees were not factually at #1 on any of the three charts that week, Tom Jones was never in the running irregardless of a possible mix up, But the consolation is that the Bee Gees will go to #1 on Sept 7th.

I'm working on September 1968 now so am only a few months away compilation wise from going back to do 1960 to 1963 and for the very first time will be including the RR and RM charts into the averaged figures as for a spell between 60 and 62 these were both omitted by the BBC so the averaged chart might reflect even more differences between it and the BBC chart.

[Graham76man]

I find it strange how the EP market suddenly declined around the mid 60s. At one time it was a lot more vibrant than the LP market, and with stronger sellers. Did the public really just lose interest overnight or did labels decide they wanted to phase them out in favour of the more profitable album?

From what I gather the EP was not intended at the start to have more tracks on the same size of plastic as a single, but to have a full piece of classical music on one side. But they started to be marketed as "mini albums". However to get the tracks on meant a loss in quality. If you put an EP on a hi-fi system and afterwards put on a standard single. Then the single will blast you out! Being much louder than any EP. So the LP which could give the length and keep the quality of sound was much better than the EP. As stereo hi-fi systems grew more popular the pitfalls of the EP became more known and they lost ground. Many EP also became novelty records, or for films, opera and classical pieces. Plus children's TV shows for example: Thunderbirds, Capitan Scarlet and Stingray all had EP's with episodes on them.

Even that Beatles EP was linked to the Magical Mystery Tour film and "fun" novelty tracks on them. I suspect the Beatles did it rather than spend a great deal of time in the studio doing a new album, since after Sargent Pepper they knew they couldn't just throw together a collection of tracks together and make an album that way. The critics would have had them for breakfast if they did that!

If you were going to make serious money and the best quality music an LP became the way to do it. The EP was just a gimmick in that respect.

[Splodj]

For those who can't wait to find out I now know who finally took the throne on the infamous chart of 31st August 1968 Ha Ha !

We discussed this on the P/TOTP thread and, like Graham, I think it should have been the Bee Gees and that this is one of the times when MM got it wrong.

What cannot be disputed is that the Bee Gees were heading for number one, so it just a question of when they arrived. Also undisputed is that the 'Top Pops' chart had the Bee Gees at number one this week.

Dave Taylor also has a couple of interesting comments about this week. First he says that RR originally had a tie between the Beach Boys and The Bee Gees. I find this difficult to believe because (if I understand the RR tiebreak procedure correctly) they would have broken the tie in favour of the Bee Gees.

But the other thing Dave Taylor says is highly plausible. This is that NME incorrectly applied points to Tom Jones that should have gone to Tommy James. This looks likely because NME putting Tom Jones at number one looks out of kilter considering that the other charts put him at number 5. Dave says that if they had not made this mistake NME would also have put the Bee Gees at number one.

I am not at all suggesting that we should trust this claim enough to change the NME positions, but it is a contributory factor in my personal resolution of the infamous 3-way tie.

[membranemusic]

Mr Tibbs you must carry on with this wonderful project. I can quite understand why you did not include the Music Echo charts to December ‘65 with their small samples (a decision echoed by the BBC), but it would have provided a good laugh with their position disparity of up 20-30 places on some records compared to all other papers.
Can I take it that you will exclude Top Pops/Music Now charts from 1968 on the basis of small samples (but big shops?)?

[Robbie]

Record Retailer ended it's EP chart that same week. This allowed the new Beatles double EP to enter the Record Retailer singles chart. The first EP to do so. The EP was released the week the final chart was published. I suspect EMI might have waited for them to close the chart down. It was clearly on the cards as it had remained static for the last few months with no records entering for a long time.

I find it strange how the EP market suddenly declined around the mid 60s. At one time it was a lot more vibrant than the LP market, and with stronger sellers. Did the public really just lose interest overnight or did labels decide they wanted to phase them out in favour of the more profitable album?

[Graham76man]

It should be The Bee Gees - Gotta Get A Message To You

[Graham76man]

Record Retailer ended it's EP chart that same week. This allowed the new Beatles double EP to enter the Record Retailer singles chart. The first EP to do so. The EP was released the week the final chart was published. I suspect EMI might have waited for them to close the chart down. It was clearly on the cards as it had remained static for the last few months with no records entering for a long time.

[MrTibbs]

For those who can't wait to find out I now know who finally took the throne on the infamous chart of 31st August 1968 Ha Ha !

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

There are 11 differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 9th 1967.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 9th 1967								NME	MM	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC		TOP	30	Scored
3	1	Hello Goodbye - The Beatles					1	1	1	1	16050
1	2	Let The Heartaches Begin - Long John Baldry					2	2	2	2	15515
2	3	Everybody Knows - The Dave Clark Five					3	3	3	3	14980
4	4	If The Whole World Stopped Lovin' - Val Doonican					4	5	4	4	14245
8	5	Something's Gotten Hold Of My Heart - Gene Pitney					5	4	5	5	14110
10	6	Careless Hands - Des O'Connor					6	6	6	6	13375
13	7	I'm Coming Home - Tom Jones					7	7	8	10	12335
9	8	All My Love - Cliff Richard					8	8	7	11	12300
15	9	World - The Bee Gees					9	10	9	9	11570
7	10	The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck					11	9	10	13	11180
5	11	Love Is All Around - The Troggs					10	11	11	7	11040
6	12	Baby Now That I've Found You - The Foundations					12	12	13	8	10255
18	13	Daydream Believer - The Monkees					13	13	12	15	9710
14	14	I Feel Love Coming On - Felice Taylor					14	14	17	12	8515
25	15	Thank U Very Much - The Scaffold					15	17	14	14	8495
11	16	Zabadak - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					16	16	16	16	8025
12	17	There Is A Mountain - Donovan					17	18	15	21	7450
24	18	Kites - Simon Dupree and The Big Sound					18	19	19	17	6590
27	19	Here We Go Round The Mulberry Bush - Traffic					19	15	24	19	5970
16	20	Autumn Almanac - The Kinks					20	23	18	20	5785
22	21	So Tired - Frankie Vaughan					23	22	20	26	4975
19	22	There Must Be A Way - Frankie Vaughan					21	20	23	22	4965
20	23	I Can See For Miles - The Who					24	25	21	23	4380
29	24	In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross and The Supremes					22	21	27	18	4105
23	25	Big Spender - Shirley Bassey					25	24	22	27	3990
17	26	Massachusetts - The Bee Gees					26	26	25	24	3095
21	27	San Franciscan Nights - Eric Burdon and The Animals					28	30	26	28	1705
NEW	28	Wild Honey - The Beach Boys					29	29	28	29	1320
NEW	29	Tin Soldier - The Small Faces					30	26			1000
NEW	30	Jackie - Scott Walker						28			600
		You've Not Changed - Sandie Shaw							29	30	585
		Soul Man - Sam and Dave					27			25	510
		I Only Live To Love You - Cilla Black							30		250