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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined
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Originally posted by MrTibbs View PostI don't mind either way but I'm also aware lots of you like to study the chart in detail Brian
Originally posted by MrTibbs View PostAs I look at these charts as I compile them and listen to some of the songs as well while I do, I wonder where did it all go wrong, how has it been possible to go from this era of music to the offerings we have today.
MrTibbs my favourite topic, love it
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Thanks kjell. It's always encouraging and spurs me on when you guys tell me the chart is hitting the right notes. Pardon the pun.
Here is my dilemma. You say I'm going so fast it's making you dizzy lol when I post 2 charts a day.
I'm already working on June 1968, 9 months ahead of here so I'm well stocked up with charts, so tell me guys, do u want 1 chart per day or 2 ?, I don't mind either way but I'm also aware lots of you like to study the chart in detail, so over to u ? Advise me.
Brian
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You’re going so fast that it almost makes me dizzy, I’m thoroughly impressed. Agree with your comments on Alan’s chart history, his updated version is the chart Bible. Understand your 300 MM dilemma. Mathematically it would seem right to not reduce that, but it can’t change much. However, your average chart is anyway the most accurate chart representation prior to when the official chart finally succeeded in reaching accuracy.
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Greetings Pop Pickers !
There are 12 minor differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.
Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 9th 1967. Enjoy !
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 9th 1967 NME MM RR Total Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored 2 1 The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck 1 1 1 1 16050 3 2 I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Tom Jones 2 3 2 2 15315 1 3 San Francisco - Scott McKenzie 3 2 3 3 15180 11 4 Excerpt From A Teenage Opera - Keith West 4 5 4 4 14245 5 5 Even The Bad Times Are Good - The Tremeloes 5 6 5 6 13625 8 6 We Love You / Dandelion - The Rolling Stones 7 4 7 8 13355 4 7 The House That Jack Built - The Alan Price Set 6 7 6 5 13260 6 8 I Was Made To Love Her - Stevie Wonder 8 8 8 9 12220 7 9 Just Loving You - Anita Harris 9 9 9 7 11940 10 10 Pleasant Valley Sunday - The Monkees 10 11 10 11 10950 13 11 Heroes And Villains - The Beach Boys 11 10 11 12 10815 15 12 Itchycoo Park - The Small Faces 12 12 12 10 10335 9 13 All You Need Is Love - The Beatles 13 13 13 13 9630 20 14 Let's Go To San Francisco - The Flowerpot Men 14 14 14 15 9010 19 15 The Day I Met Marie - Cliff Richard 15 21 15 14 7445 22 16 The Burning Of The Midnight Lamp - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 16 15 21 18 6805 14 17 Up Up And Away - The Johnny Mann Singers 18 20 18 20 6385 NEW 18 Reflections - Diana Ross and The Supremes 20 17 20 23 6230 12 19 Death Of A Clown - Dave Davies 17 25 16 16 6225 17 20 Gin House - Amen Corner 19 24 17 17 6090 23 21 You Keep Me Hangin' On - Vanilla Fudge 21 16 22 22 6015 16 22 Creeque Alley - The Mamas And Papas 22 22 19 19 5820 29 23 There Must Be A Way - Frankie Vaughan 24 19 23 27 4740 18 24 It Must Be Him - Vikki Carr 23 23 24 21 4200 30 25 Hole In My Shoe - Traffic 27 17 2800 26 26 A Bad Night - Cat Stevens 25 26 26 26 2675 21 27 You Only Twice / Jackson - Nancy Sinatra 28 29 25 25 2410 24 28 There Goes My Everything - Engelbert Humperdinck 26 27 27 24 2395 NEW 29 Black Velvet Band - The Dubliners 29 30 28 28 1205 28 30 Tramp - Otis Redding and Carla Thomas 30 28 30 30 935 007 - Desmond Dekker 29 29 670
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Greetings Pop Pickers !
Traffic enter with the brilliant Hole In My Shoe. Rock On !
Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 2nd 1967. Enjoy !
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 2nd 1967 NME MM RR Total Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored 1 1 San Francisco - Scott McKenzie 1 1 2 1 15800 19 2 The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck 2 3 1 3 15480 2 3 I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Tom Jones 3 2 3 2 15265 6 4 The House That Jack Built - The Alan Price Set 4 4 4 4 14445 5 5 Even The Bad Times Are Good - The Tremeloes 5 5 6 5 13660 3 6 I Was Made To Love Her - Stevie Wonder 6 6 5 8 13455 8 7 Just Loving You - Anita Harris 7 8 7 7 12640 20 8 We Love You / Dandelion - The Rolling Stones 8 7 8 10 12335 4 9 All You Need Is Love - The Beatles 9 9 10 6 11775 12 10 Pleasant Valley Sunday - The Monkees 10 10 11 11 10900 15 11 Excerpt From A Teenage Opera - Keith West 11 13 9 12 10715 7 12 Death Of A Clown - Dave Davies 12 14 13 9 9770 25 13 Heroes And Villains - The Beach Boys 13 11 15 13 9530 9 14 Up Up And Away - The Johnny Mann Singers 14 15 12 14 9395 14 15 Itchycoo Park - The Small Faces 15 12 14 18 9155 11 16 Creeque Alley - The Mamas And Papas 16 17 17 15 7660 13 17 Gin House - Amen Corner 17 19 16 16 7425 10 18 It Must Be Him - Vikki Carr 18 16 19 17 7190 21 19 The Day I Met Marie - Cliff Richard 19 21 18 23 5930 NEW 20 Let's Go To San Francisco - The Flowerpot Men 21 21 20 25 5260 17 21 You Only Live Twice / Jackson - Nancy Sinatra 20 23 22 20 4785 NEW 22 The Burning Of The Midnight Lamp - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 24 18 23 4600 28 23 You Keep Me Hangin' On - Vanilla Fudge 22 20 25 22 4465 22 24 There Goes My Everything - Engelbert Humperdinck 23 28 21 19 4120 16 25 She'd Rather Be With Me - The Turtles 25 26 27 21 2850 27 26 A Bad Night - Cat Stevens 27 30 24 26 2375 24 27 007 - Desmond Dekker 28 24 28 29 2320 18 28 Tramp - Otis Redding and Carla Thomas 26 29 26 24 2245 30 29 There Must Be A Way - Frankie Vaughan 29 25 30 1450 NEW 30 Hole In My Shoe - Traffic 30 27 800 Reflections - Diana Ross and The Supremes 29 500 Alternate Title - The Monkees 27 340 See Emily Play - Pink Floyd 28 255 Time Seller - The Spencer Davis Group 30 85
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When I was down in the Newspaper Library copying charts a few years back, and was copying the Record Mirror itself, they themselves cited that as the reason in their paper, that costs of postage had become too expensive to continue with their own chart. Given what you say about postage not rising it well have been an excuse used at the time to change over to the RR chart.
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One thing he claims is that Record Mirror's charts were brought down by a postage price increase in 1961 that they could not afford but Melody Maker could. Was there a price increase in 1961? Historic postage rate sites indicate there were no increases between 1957 and 1965.
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Yes I helped Alan Smith with some of the information for his Chart History.
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Yeah, Disc cut their sampling from around a hundred to between 30 and 50 to add to the MM tally. Alan Smith's Updated Chart History is an invaluable resource of chart information, well researched and authorative, and followed by many so that's why I tend to follow his evidence for my information and not speculative unreliable sources.
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The answer to that Brian is that they raised the school leaving age from 15 to 16 in 1973 and that changed the youth culture. These days the kids are not earning money for themselves right past 18. And the record industry relied on that money.
The last few posts on Disc have opened up the debate on the figures Brian uses for shops taking part. He had 100 for Disc and we now find it was only 50. This does fit in with practices to stop hyping. Having 100 on the list, but only using 50. This way the Record Companies have to hype all 100 known shops. Much more expensive, but of course not impossible. I suspect also if you have to phone all the shops, it's much easier to phone the next on the list if one is engaged.
So Melody Maker used ALL the shops? And they changed the way it was calculated too. That explains a lot. Since I am way ahead of Brian in the 1967 charts. Should finish them in the next few weeks. When I have been looking at the charts of them all, I noticed after Disc lost it's chart that there was a change in the MM chart. In-fact I would say that even Record Retailer seems more realistic than MM. And that is based on the TOTP effect. The sales increases for the records after each show. MM can be two weeks late getting a record into the top 30 after a TOTP appearance.
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As I look at these charts as I compile them and listen to some of the songs as well while I do, I wonder where did it all go wrong, how has it been possible to go from this era of music to the offerings we have today.Last edited by MrTibbs; Thu October 22, 2020, 20:51.
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In any case, it is within Alan Smith's 250-280 range for the combined total.
If MM were confident that they had the largest sample, particularly now that Zebedee had sprung into action for them, I don't know why they didn't shout it from the rooftops.Last edited by Splodj; Thu October 22, 2020, 19:18.
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Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View PostFYI, for this week, when Disc ceased compiling its own charts and started carrying the Melody Maker charts, Alan Smith says:
"When the M.M sample was joined by that of Disc from 19th August 1967, the combined sample came close to 300 returns!"
Brian
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In the same post, opening 'Updated chart history', he goes into more detail saying: "Disc cut their compiling to 30 to 50 phone calls which main compiler Fred Zebedee would combine with Melody Makers, 200 plus postal sample to make a combined chart of approximately 250-280 postal and phoned returns."
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FYI, for this week, when Disc ceased compiling its own charts and started carrying the Melody Maker charts, Alan Smith says:
"When the M.M sample was joined by that of Disc from 19th August 1967, the combined sample came close to 300 returns!"
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Greetings Pop Pickers !
The first Rolling Stones single I didn't really like debuts this week. It was a weak single by their standard.
Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 26th 1967. Enjoy !
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 26th 1967 NME MM RR Total Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 85 Points Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored 1 1 San Francisco - Scott McKenzie 1 1 1 1 16050 3 2 I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Tom Jones 2 2 2 2 15515 5 3 I Was Made To Love Her - Stevie Wonder 3 3 3 8 14555 2 4 All You Need Is Love - The Beatles 4 6 4 3 14130 10 5 Even The Bad Times Are Good - The Tremeloes 5 5 5 4 13995 9 6 The House That Jack Built - The Alan Price Set 6 4 6 5 13860 4 7 Death Of A Clown - Dave Davies 7 7 7 7 12840 7 8 Just Loving You - Anita Harris 8 8 8 6 12475 6 9 Up Up And Away - The Johnny Mann Singers 9 9 9 10 11685 8 10 It Must Be Him - Vikki Carr 11 10 10 13 10980 11 11 Creeque Alley - The Mamas And Papas 10 12 11 9 10670 22 12 Pleasant Valley Sunday - The Monkees 12 11 12 11 10450 13 13 Gin House - Amen Corner 13 17 13 12 8915 21 14 Itchycoo Park - The Small Faces 14 15 15 14 8645 26 15 Excerpt From A Teenage Opera - Keith West 15 18 16 18 7455 12 16 She'd Rather Be With Me - The Turtles 16 20 17 15 7060 17 17 You Only Live Twice - Nancy Sinatra 17 21 14 23 6930 18 18 Tramp - Otis Redding and Carla Thomas 18 19 19 21 6250 NEW 19 The Last Waltz - Engelbert Humperdinck 19 14 24 19 6170 NEW 20 We Love You / Dandelion - The Rolling Stones 20 13 26 17 6040 27 21 The Day I Met Marie - Cliff Richard 22 21 20 24 5345 16 22 There Goes My Everything - Engelbert Humperdinck 21 24 22 16 4925 14 23 See Emily Play - Pink Floyd 23 26 18 27 4590 19 24 007 - Desmond Dekker 24 25 21 25 4210 NEW 25 Heroes And Villains - The Beach Boys 25 16 28 26 4175 15 26 Alternate Title - The Monkees 26 30 23 22 2965 24 27 A Bad Night - Cat Stevens 27 25 20 2435 28 28 You Keep Me Hangin' On - Vanilla Fudge 28 23 28 1855 20 29 Let's Pretend - Lulu 29 27 29 1170 NEW 30 There Must Be A Way - Frankie Vaughan 28 600 Jackson - Nancy Sinatra and Lee Hazlewood 27 Time Seller - The Spencer Davis Group 30 29 500 The Burning Of The Midnight Lamp - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 29 400 A Whiter Shade Of Pale - Procol Harum 30 30 335
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Penny Valentine in Disc, review of Alan Price record:
The song is about an asylum.... And I had to laugh at the end, when he decides to join them in there because he's killed all the flowers in Tennessee. Perhaps HE was tired of Flowerpower too! ... Not one of his best.
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Greetings Pop Pickers !
The BBC chart again with lots of ties including a joint #2.
There are 12 minor differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.
Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 19th 1967. Enjoy !
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 19th 1967 NME MM DISC RR Total Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored 1 1 San Francisco - Scott McKenzie 1 1 1 1 1 19050 2 2 All You Need Is Love - The Beatles 2= 3 2 3 2 18115 4 3 I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Tom Jones 2= 2 3 2 3 18080 3 4 Death Of A Clown - Dave Davies 4 4 4 5 4 17045 6 5 I Was Made To Love Her - Stevie Wonder 5 6 5 4 5 16410 7 6 Up Up And Away - The Johnny Mann Singers 6 5 6 6 6 16075 8 7 Just Loving You - Anita Harris 7 7 7 8 7 15140 5 8 It Must Be Him - Vikki Carr 8 8 9 7 10 14285 19 9 The House That Jack Built - The Alan Price Set 9 11 8 10 9 13720 20 10 Even The Bad Times Are Good - The Tremeloes 10 9 10 12 8 13505 15 11 Creeque Alley - The Mamas And Papas 12 12 11 11 12 12415 9 12 She'd Rather Be With Me - The Turtles 11 10 15 9 11 12100 22 13 Gin House - Amen Corner 15 14 13 17 16 10575 10 14 See Emily Play - Pink Floyd 13= 18 14 14 13 10080 11 15 Alternate Title - The Monkees 13= 15 17 13 14 9945 12 16 There Goes My Everything - Engelbert Humperdinck 16 13 16 15 21 9800 14 17 You Only Live Twice - Nancy Sinatra 17 19 12 20 15 9610 18 18 Tramp - Otis Redding and Carla Thomas 18 17 18 16 18 8655 17 19 007 - Desmond Dekker 19 16 19 18 19 8320 13 20 Let's Pretend - Lulu 20 24 20 19 17 6540 NEW 21 Itchycoo Park - The Small Faces 22 20 24 22 20 5785 NEW 22 Pleasant Valley Sunday - The Monkees 21 22 23 21 22 5565 16 23 A Whiter Shade Of Pale - Procol Harum 23= 30 21 23 23 4180 29 24 A Bad Night - Cat Stevens 23= 21 25 27 3900 NEW 25 Time Seller - The Spencer Davis Group 26= 28 22 26 30 3435 NEW 26 Excerpt From A Teenage Opera - Keith West 25 25 28 24 25 3160 NEW 27 The Day I Met Marie - Cliff Richard 27 30 25 27 1990 NEW 28 You Keep Me Hangin' On - Vanilla Fudge 28 23 28 1855 21 29 Take Me In Your Arms And Love Me - Gladys Knight and The Pips 29 27 29 26 1625 25 30 Trying To Forget - Jim Reeves 30 26 24 1595 Jackson - Nancy Sinatra and Lee Hazlewood 29 Respect - Aretha Franklin 26= 26 28 1550 Annabella - John Walker 29 29 670 Marta / My World - The Bachelors 30 100
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Greetings Pop Pickers !
There are 14 minor differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.
Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 12th 1967. Enjoy !
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 12th 1967 NME MM DISC RR Total Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored 2 1 San Francisco - Scott McKenzie 1 1 1 1 1 19050 1 2 All You Need Is Love - The Beatles 2 2 2 2 2 18415 4 3 Death Of A Clown - Dave Davies 3 4 3 4 3 17480 7 4 I'll Never Fall In Love Again - Tom Jones 4 3 5 3 4 17195 3 5 It Must Be Him - Vikki Carr 5 7 4 5 5 16360 9 6 I Was Made To Love Her - Stevie Wonder 6 5 7 6 7 15740 10 7 Up Up And Away - The Johnny Mann Singers 7 6 6 7 8 15605 14 8 Just Loving You - Anita Harris 9 8 8 9 11 14250 5 9 She'd Rather Be With Me - The Turtles 8 9 10 8 6 14075 8 10 See Emily Play - Pink Floyd 11 11 9 11 10 13285 6 11 Alternate Title - The Monkees 10 10 11 10 9 13170 11 12 There Goes My Everything - Engelbert Humperdinck 12 12 12 12 13 11980 13 13 Let's Pretend - Lulu 13 14 14 13 14 10895 15 14 You Only Live Twice / Jackson - Nancy Sinatra 15 16 13 18 16 10075 21 15 Creeque Alley - The Mamas And Papas 14 13 19 15 12 9815 12 16 A Whiter Shade Of Pale - Procol Harum 16 17 15 16 17 9490 18 17 007 - Desmond Dekker 17 15 16 17 19 9370 19 18 Tramp - Otis Redding and Carla Thomas 18 18 17 14 22 8565 NEW 19 The House That Jack Built - The Alan Price Set 20 20 21 21 20 6635 29 20 Even The Bad Times Are Good - The Tremeloes 19 19 23 23 15 6560 17 21 Take Me In Your Arms And Love Me - Gladys Knight and The Pips 21= 22 20 20 21 6500 28 22 Gin House - Amen Corner 21= 21 22 22 18 6255 16 23 Respect - Aretha Franklin 23 26 18 19 23 6130 25 24 Marta / My World - The Bachelors 24 23 24 25 24 4545 27 25 Trying To Forget - Jim Reeves 26 24 28 26 2650 24 26 Annabella - John Walker 25 25 27 25 2410 20 27 Groovin' - The Young Rascals 27 27 24 29 1870 26 28 Tonight In Tokyo - Sandie Shaw 28= 26 28 28 1805 NEW 29 A Bad Night - Cat Stevens 28= 27 29 26 1425 22 30 Carrie Anne - The Hollies 30 29 700 Jackson - Nancy Sinatra and Lee Hazlewood 25 Seven Rooms Of Gloom - The Four Tops 29 30 650 Time Seller - The Spencer Davis Group 28 600 If I Were A Rich Man - Topol 30 30 27 440 Tallyman - Jeff Beck 30 85
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I followed the same practise for this record as all others that had split sides on NME since I started with 1964.
I look at the averaged chart position for the main side then exclude NME and look at the averaged chart position from the other papers, whichever of the two gives the higher position is the one used. It is the only method to fairly determine which is the best averaged position for the record in total.
But for the record here, Jackson's chart position on NME did not affect the Ultimate Averaged Chart position in either method, it's averaged position remained the same in both methods.
It's NME chart position is listed separately to simply complete the chart positions for NME's Top 30.
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The normal system of omitting NME would not be applicable in this case as no other chart put the disc at a higher position.
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You are not combining Nancy's - You Only Live Twice and Nancy and Lee's - Jackson on the NME chart? It's just a double A side, not two separate records. In the end it's just a flaw in NME's compilation, with some retailers putting down the Bond Theme and some putting down Jackson. It's unlikely that any shop put them both down in the top 50. Unless the person filling in the chart return was a bit thick?
I thought you had a way of putting them together without giving the record to greater shove up the chart?
It's a shame the record company didn't release both sides as separate singles. As this split clearly stopped the Bond Theme reaching the top ten. Even the Real Chart only had it at 12 though it stayed 23 weeks selling nearly 700K.
Some of the Pirate Radio stations clearly hated the Bond Theme, especially Radio London. Who always listed Jackson in it's made up top 40. But I think it's much better than Jackson! I suspect if the Record Company had known that the "Theme" would get some stick from the Pirates, they would have issued it separate.
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Greetings Pop Pickers !
The most sublime, evocative song of the 'flower power' era is poised to capture #1, Scott McKenzie's San Francisco.
There are a massive 17 minor differences this week in chart positions between the BBC Chart and The Ultimate Averaged Chart.
Guys, Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 5th 1967. Enjoy !
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 5th 1967 NME MM DISC RR Total Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored 1 1 All You Need Is Love - The Beatles 1 1 1 2 1 18950 2 2 San Francisco - Scott McKenzie 2 2 2 1 2 18515 3 3 It Must Be Him - Vikki Carr 3 3 3 3 4 17695 9 4 Death Of A Clown - Dave Davies 4 4 4 9 3 16730 5 5 She'd Rather Be With Me - The Turtles 6 7 5 4 7 16040 4 6 Alternate Title - The Monkees 5 6 7 5 5 15810 20 7 I'll Never Fall In In Love Again - Tom Jones 7 4 8 6 6 15775 6 8 See Emily Play - Pink Floyd 9 9 6 10 9 14620 13 9 I Was Made To Love Her - Stevie Wonder 8 10 9 7 8 14055 10 10 Up Up And Away - The Johnny Mann Singers 10 8 10 8 11 13850 8 11 There Goes My Everything - Engelbert Humperdinck 11 11 12 11 12 12365 7 12 A Whiter Shade Of Pale - Procol Harum 12 14 11 13 10 11985 11 13 Let's Pretend - Lulu 13 12 13 12 13 11730 19 14 Just Loving You - Anita Harris 14 13 14 14 14 10995 16 15 You Only Live Twice / Jackson - Nancy Sinatra 16 15 15 18 20 9435 12 16 Respect - Aretha Franklin 15 16 17 17 15 9260 15 17 Take Me In Your Arms And Love Me - Gladys Knight and The Pips 19 19 16 20 18 8355 25 18 007 - Desmond Dekker 17 18 19 16 19 8120 23 19 Tramp - Otis Redding and Carla Thomas 18 17 20 15 21 8000 14 20 Groovin' - The Young Rascals 20 23 18 21 16 7125 NEW 21 Creeque Alley - The Mamas And Papas 21 20 23 19 17 6590 17 22 Carrie Anne - The Hollies 23 21 26 25 26 4275 18 23 Seven Rooms Of Gloom - The Four Tops 26 26 21 27 28 4155 29 24 Annabella - John Walker 22 27 24 22 24 4045 27 25 Marta / My World - The Bachelors 24 29 22 26 22 3915 24 26 Tonight In Tokyo - Sandie Shaw 25 30 25 24 23 3080 NEW 27 Trying To Forget - Jim Reeves 27 27 27 23 2600 NEW 28 Gin House - Amen Corner 29 25 30 27 1640 NEW 29 Even The Bad Times Are Good - The Tremeloes 30 23 1600 21 30 If I Were A Rich Man - Topol 28 28 28 25 1560 Jackson - Nancy Sinatra and Lee Hazlewood 22 Here Comes The Nice - The Small Faces 30 29 29 620 Strange Brew - Cream 29 500 Don't Sleep In The Subway - Petula Clark 30 85
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Joe Brown reached 34 with his version at this time in 1967. The biggest hit for it would come a year later for Joe Cocker, of course the last big hitter on the 45 market was Wet Wet Wet.
John Barry's theme to You Only Live Twice did sell, but reached only reached 51.
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