The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

One other thought, Brian and all, on doing a bridge chart for a missing Christmas chart. I’m not necessarily advocating for this, just mentioning it as a mathematical thought / possibility. I think we briefly discussed this before, up thread somewhere.

I / we have read somewhere that sometimes it could be that a published chart after a skipped week was not a chart for the preceding 1 week period, but was a chart summed up over the prior 2 weeks !! Which would mean that the dealers summed up their sales over a 2 week period, ranked them, and submitted the rankings to the music paper chart, who averaged them all together.

So in trying to deal with this 2-week chart situation, we could have DIFFERENT scenarios of what would produce the best truth for a missing chart:

a) skip the missing week
b) freeze the missing week chart with the chart FOLLOWING the missing week
c) construct 2 new charts for the missing week AND the following week

Example: let’s say MM skipped a chart for the week of Dec 27, and we know the following week chart for Jan 3 was averaged from the dealer charts over the prior 2 week period. Perhaps MM told their dealers in advance to produce only 1 chart for the 2 week period. Our options would be:

a) just skip the missing chart of Dec 27
b) freeze the missing Dec 27 chart, but not with the preceding Dec 20 chart, but rather with the following Jan 3 chart
c) create a bridge chart for Dec 27 by averaging the Dec 20 chart with the 2-week Jan 3 chart, AND create another bridge chart for Jan 3 by averaging the 2-week Jan 3 chart with the Jan 10 chart

Which option would be closer to the truth?

Most interesting I must say, but just a thought. Please, no one strain your brains on this, ha…

[braindeadpj]

[One other thought, Brian and all, on doing a bridge chart for a missing Christmas chart. I’m not necessarily advocating for this, just mentioning it as a mathematical thought / possibility. I think we briefly discussed this before, up thread somewhere.

I / we have read somewhere that sometimes it could be that a published chart after a skipped week was not a chart for the preceding 1 week period, but was a chart summed up over the prior 2 weeks !! Which would mean that the dealers summed up their sales over a 2 week period, ranked them, and submitted the rankings to the music paper chart, who averaged them all together.

This was one of my concerns about creating a bridging chart, but since we don't know for sure that it was a 2-week chart (we know Gallup did in 1983), I still think creating a bridge chart from the weeks either side of the gap week is a viable alternative (or at least a bit of fun) anyway. As to the best option, there are pros and cons for your suggestions. The easiest is of course to just skip it, but that leaves gaps....

Having said that I wonder whether there is anyway to tell from the RM dealer charts - they don't really give any dates on them do they so we can't tell from that can we?

[MrTibbs]

On the 22nd November Chart, the BBC made a couple of errors as Malcolm Vaughan is actually joint 6 (5+6+8+6 =25) with Marino Marini (7+5+5+8 =25) and The Olympics should be joint 20 (20+18+21+20 =79) with The Poni-Tails (18+21+19+21 =79)

There's a shock .. not, the BBC making a mistake. When I started this project for the UAC the initial goal really was to eliminate all the ties on the BBC chart and make it more robust by factoring in another level, store returns.

What I wasn't prepared for was the incredible number of errors that surfaced week after week. I expected a few, Dave and Trevor had discovered some but not on the scale that came to light. It is made worse when you realise that this was the chart many millions of us grew up with on TOTP and POTP and totally believed in as a representative averaged chart when in reality it was just cobbled together quickly and never even checked.

When dealing with so many figures it is easy to make an occasional error, I have. The BBC error count though is off the scale.

[MrTibbs]

Hmmm, solving a problem always creates another doesn't it and the points made above by you both are interesting and valid.

All things considered though there is no evidence either way to indicate whether dealers combined two weeks or totally disregarded the week they didn't compile. In reality some may have and some wouldn't as it would mean extra work for them at a busy time after the holiday. Easy in the later computerised years but back then, questionable. Like so many other unanswered questions prior to BMRB we will never know.

So I took the charts as I always do at face value. What was there, was there. Simple and transparent. We have what we have.

Bear in mind too that even this bridging chart was subject to the averaging process with the other papers that week so this further evened it out.
But all in all I agree with you both, it's better than no chart and at the end of the day it can be accepted as likely or totally disregarded. It's an individual thing but an interesting addition as to what it may have been like had it been compiled.

[Splodj]

On the 22nd November Chart, the BBC made a couple of errors

I agree that the most likely explanation is that they are errors.

However as that week is completely tie-free it might have been an early attempt at tiebreaking. eg Marino above 6 in 2 charts, Poni-Tails above 20 in 2 charts.

Even if tried, clearly abandoned the following week.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 6th 1958

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 6th 1958								NME	MM	DISC	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey					65	25	40	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI					1	1	1	1	1	5700
2	2	It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty					2	2	2	2	2	5510
5	3	Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan					3	3	4	3	3	5295
3	4	It's All In The Game - Tommy Edwards					4	3	3	4	4	5220
8	5	More Than Ever - Malcolm Vaughan					5	7	7	5	6	4700
16	6	Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio					6=	8	6	8	5	4600
4	7	A Certain Smile - Johnny Mathis					6=	5	5	7	10	4560
10	8	High Class Baby - Cliff Richard					8	9	10	9	7	4275
15	9	Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra					10	6	9	16	8	4155
6	10	Bird Dog - The Everly Brothers					9	13	8	6	11	3945
7	11	Come Prima / Volare - Marino Marini					11	12	11	11	9	3855
9	12	Love Makes The World Go 'Round / Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como					12	10	12	10	13	3760
14	13	Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Ricky Nelson					13	10	13	15	14	3475
11	14	Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele					14	14	14	13	12	3390
13	15	Stupid Cupid / Carolina Moon - Connie Francis					15	16	15	12	15	3095
12	16	Move It - Cliff Richard					16	15	17	14	16	2970
17	17	King Creole - Elvis Presley					17	27	16	19	17	1955
20	18	Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Jodie Sands					18	17	20		19	1905
18	19	My True Love - Jack Scott					19=	18	19	20		1585
22	20	Susie Darlin' - Robin Luke					19=	23	18	18		1365
24	21	Mary's Boy Child - Harry Belafonte						20		17		1275
NEW	22	The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan						24			18	1235
21	23	Summertime Blues - Eddie Cochran						19				780
RE	24	It's So Easy - The Crickets									20	660
19	25	I'll Get By - Connie Francis (A)						22				585
29	26	More Party Pops - Russ Conway						25				390
19	27	Fallin' - Connie Francis (B)						26				325
23	28	Lonnie's Skiffle Party - Lonnie Donegan						28				195
NEW	29	Topsy - Cozy Cole						29				130
NEW	30	Gee But It's Lonely - Pat Boone						30				65
		Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como (B)						21
25		Born Too Late - The Poni-Tails
26		Volare - Dean Martin
27		More Than Ever - Robert Earl
27		Poor Little Fool - Ricky Nelson
		* Connie Francis' split sides allowed to chart this week as both sides only chart on NME.

[braindeadpj]

I agree that the most likely explanation is that they are errors.

However as that week is completely tie-free it might have been an early attempt at tiebreaking. eg Marino above 6 in 2 charts, Poni-Tails above 20 in 2 charts.

Even if tried, clearly abandoned the following week.

Yes that could be a possible interpretation..... Maybe someone different calculated the chart that week.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 13th 1958

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 13th 1958								NME	MM	DISC	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey					65	25	40	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI					1	1	2	1	1	5675
2	2	It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty					2	2	1	2	2	5535
3	3	Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan					3	3	3	3	3	5320
4	4	It's All In The Game - Tommy Edwards					4	4	4	4	5	5070
6	5	Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio					5	6	5	6	4	4895
8	6	High Class Baby - Cliff Richard					6	7	7	5	6	4700
9	7	Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra					8=	5	10	11	7	4455
12	8	Love Makes The World Go 'Round / Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como					7	8	8	8	8	4370
7	9	A Certain Smile - Johnny Mathis					8=	11	6	7	9	4205
5	10	More Than Ever - Malcolm Vaughan					10	10	9	9	11	3995
13	11	Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Ricky Nelson					11	9	12	10	13	3825
14	12	Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele					12	13	13	13	10	3600
11	13	Come Prima / Volare - Marino Marini					13	11	11	16	12	3540
10	14	Bird Dog - The Everly Brothers					14	15	15	12	14	3220
22	15	The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan					15	14	19	15	15	3005
15	16	Stupid Cupid / Carolina Moon - Connie Francis					18=	20	17	17	20	2285
16	17	Move It - Cliff Richard					16=	25	16	20	16	2105
18	18	Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Jodie Sands					20	19	18		17	1945
NEW	19	Real Love - Ruby Murray						18	20	19		1600
21	20	Mary's Boy Child - Harry Belafonte					16=	17		14		1590
17	21	King Creole - Elvis Presley					18=	27	14		18	1465
20	22	Susie Darlin' - Robin Luke						24		18		975
RE	23	Mr Success - Frank Sinatra						29			19	850
26	24	More Party Pops - Russ Conway						21				650
23	25	Summertime Blues - Eddie Cochran						22				585
28	26	Lonnie's Skiffle Party - Lonnie Donegan						23				520
27	27	Fallin' - Connie Francis						26				325
NEW	28	The Son Of Mary - Harry Belafonte						27				260
19	29	My True Love - Jack Scott						30				65
		Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como (B)						16
24		It's So Easy - The Crickets
25		I'll Get By - Connie Francis (A)
29		Topsy - Cozy Cole
30		Gee But It's Lonely - Pat Boone

[braindeadpj]

Hello Brian,
I was thinking about possible future projects you could perform (if you wanted to).

You could consider an UAC-style album chart for the 50s/60s. I know NME were a bit late to the party (so to speak) but wasn't there an RM and MM in '58 - though is it worth it from just 2 papers (when did Disc start an Album chart)??

An EP chart UAC - probably not enough overlapping weeks for each of the newspapers, and how to handle it when they don't have their own EP chart, but include them in the main chart?).

You could also compile a chart of the year for each one of the UAC's years - though of course if you were going to base it on the points scored you'd need to work out a way to normalize things when the number of stores changed (or number of positions or number of charts) otherwise you're likely to be biased towards the end of the year (for that reason an inverse points system on the position may be better?). Also perhaps a Top UAC Chart where you look at all of the charts to compile a Top chart of the 50s/60s - though again you have the problem with changing number of charts, changing number of stores and changing length of charts? Perhaps this type of problem could be rectified by normalizing to percentage of maximum score possible achieved each week and then multiplying that by the number of positions. Then you'd get say 30 points (perhaps 100 would be easier?) if you were no.1 and were no.1 on all charts and this would decline as your proportion of the maximum score declined.

Also how many different sheet music charts are there?

[braindeadpj]

Another option could be a combined sheet music UAC chart? You could either do it by song (a la the sheet music) or a singles chart, - though how to handle multiple artists covering the same song could be triicky to work out.

[braindeadpj]

Also in the 80s there are several Indie charts or Rock charts available - some of which have recently been posted on UKMIX. A combination of these different charts may be interesting, though I think it'd need to be a straight forward inverse points for each chart as we don't know how many stores were used for each (in some cases it may be just one location - perhaps best not to use single location ones?).

Another option would be a combination US one, though again due to the inclusion of airplay it'd probably again need to be just an inverse points system - unless there is some indication of the market coverage (air play and sales for the retrospective compilers).

[braindeadpj]

In the last week's position for Fallin' on the December 13th chart you have 28, but on the 6th December chart Falling was at 27 (as you have listed under the drop outs!).

[MrTibbs]

In the last week's position for Fallin' on the December 13th chart you have 28, but on the 6th December chart Falling was at 27 (as you have listed under the drop outs!).

Thanks David that's been corrected above.

As to your other suggestions.

I don't really want to get into another alternative UAC kind of scenario for two reasons. One, any others would dilute it's effect and muddy the waters thus detracting from it's 'Ultimate' status which it is as it uses the 'main' charts of the day consistently.
I considered so many other charts when planning it, Pop Weekly 62 to 65, Top Pops 68 to 69, for example but in the end discounted them as they were short lived and when looking at them in detail many of their chart positions were way off the scale even more so than RR. So I stuck to the main players.

I seriously considered factoring in the 'Sheet Music Chart' for the fifties but decided against this as because it was a 'song' as opposed to a 'record' chart it did not match. Also because the record charts often had competing versions but the sheet chart position included all versions under the song banner it would be impossible to allocate points to versions on the record charts. As you have seen this decade was difficult enough with split sides without trying to work out a system for this too. So I abandoned the idea and stuck to the tried and true.

Two, I do intend at some point in the late summer to get to London and get hold of the remaining RM dealer charts and make a start on compiling a definitive extended RM chart for the period the RM dealer charts were available. I see huge value in this project, the basic templates are all there and just need work to deliver even a larger chart for the fifties than NME. Originally I planned to make this a RM Top 50 but have reconsidered this as I now plan to compile a chart that may be much bigger depending on the volume of records that appear on the dealer charts. It may reach a Top 75 and possibly even a Top 100. Imagine that, a Top 100 chart for the second half of the fifties. Now there's a chart for posterity. Even more interesting will be the ability to compare the years 1960 and 1961 in an extended RM chart with the early RR Top 50 and even a bigger chart ha !

This project therefore will be a herculean task. On the UAC at most I was working with 5 charts on a weekly basis. With the RM chart I am going to be averaging around 60 a week but the end result will be well worth it.
So this is the principal reason I don't want to undertake a big new project now. Yes I will factor in the missed end of year charts in the meantime.

I just hope because of the work involved, which I don't really mind, that there is as much interest in an extended RM chart as there has been for the UAC.

[Splodj]

You could consider an UAC-style album chart

To produce a survey-based 'LP Top 10' for this period you could simply take the RM Top 5 and then arrange the other records in MM order for 6-10.

[kingofskiffle]

To produce a survey-based 'LP Top 10' for this period you could simply take the RM Top 5 and then arrange the other records in MM order for 6-10.

I would imagine that more LP's would appear when doing the RM ultimate chart above and so a larger Top 10 could work.

I'm happy to wait I think and see the new Record Mirror listings if you can get to London Mr Tibbs.

[Splodj]

But didn't RM ask their dealers to complete separate Single and LP returns?

In any case the LP charts were rather unexciting at this time. I was just suggesting how anyone could quickly calculate a more reliable Top 10 than the 'official' one for any week.

I see that you also call them LPs. In those day Albums were for photos and stamps!

[brian05]

NEW 19 Real Love - Ruby Murray

An early cover of a Beatles future song? Surely not!


6 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard
17 Move It - Cliff Richard

Wonder why Cliff released a follow-up so soon to his first hit? Surely sales of Move It were holding back progress of High Class Baby.

[MrTibbs]

NEW 19 Real Love - Ruby Murray

An early cover of a Beatles future song? Surely not!

Fear not Brian, it was a dull boring ballad that didn't perform well chartwise, not The Beatles splendid song of the same name.

[Splodj]

Wonder why Cliff released a follow-up so soon to his first hit?

To maximise sales at Christmas time?

[kjell]

I’ve been considering the possibility of making a top 10 LP chart based on the RM extended chart that MrTibbs will be making. Colin Driscolls book don’t give the answer since it only records the upward trends and not the downward ones. We will know the answer to this question when RM extended is completed till the spring of 61. My guess is that it will make it possible to make a top 10 LP chart for much of the time but probably not for all weeks. However, a top 8 or 9 for the difficult weeks will be interesting enough to make it worthwhile by adding a high percentage of new LP hits.
The really big breakthrough for the years 55-61 will be MrTibbs coming RM extended singles chart for those years that will produce a wealth of new hits in the UK that will revolutionize our knowledge and widen our scope of this era. I wholeheartedly support his conclusions this morning in this thread.

[braindeadpj]

Two, I do intend at some point in the late summer to get to London and get hold of the remaining RM dealer charts and make a start on compiling a definitive extended RM chart for the period the RM dealer charts were available. I see huge value in this project, the basic templates are all there and just need work to deliver even a larger chart for the fifties than NME. Originally I planned to make this a RM Top 50 but have reconsidered this as I now plan to compile a chart that may be much bigger depending on the volume of records that appear on the dealer charts. It may reach a Top 75 and possibly even a Top 100. Imagine that, a Top 100 chart for the second half of the fifties. Now there's a chart for posterity. Even more interesting will be the ability to compare the years 1960 and 1961 in an extended RM chart with the early RR Top 50 and even a bigger chart ha !

This project therefore will be a herculean task. On the UAC at most I was working with 5 charts on a weekly basis. With the RM chart I am going to be averaging around 60 a week but the end result will be well worth it.
So this is the principal reason I don't want to undertake a big new project now. Yes I will factor in the missed end of year charts in the meantime.

I just hope because of the work involved, which I don't really mind, that there is as much interest in an extended RM chart as there has been for the UAC.

I knew this was also planned and so didn't suggest it. I do think this is a great idea as I followed the original thread avidly also. It of course will be greatly time consuming as you're dealing with 30 to 60+ charts for each week instead of a maximum of 5 (though at least they're only top 10s).
The only caveat would be if for some reason they only publish a sampling of the dealer charts especially in the later years when they were using 60 or more.... This may not be a concern as I know that in one of the issues on the world history site for 1958 they had at least 52 dealers listed...

The other ideas are just food for thought for you (and others) as to what could be interesting to pursue. None were meant to detract from the quality and importance of the UAC.
I don't know how much the music paper's album charts differed from each other as I don't have access to all the data - though perhaps that may be rectified in 2026 if Lonnie's comment about celebrating the 70th Anniversary of the Albums chart is true!- but that may be worth looking at.....

[MrTibbs]

I&#8217
The really big breakthrough for the years 55-61 will be MrTibbs coming RM extended singles chart for those years that will produce a wealth of new hits in the UK that will revolutionize our knowledge and widen our scope of this era. I wholeheartedly support his conclusions this morning in this thread.

I think the extended RM chart will come as a revelation to us all Kjell. We will see so many records and artists that have gone unnoticed and undocumented finally garner recognition. I particularly want to see what was happening underneath the RM Top 20. If you look closely at the 21 to 30 positions in the NME so often many of these positions are occupied by re-entries or records moving down the chart slowly. I want to see if RM follows the same pattern or actually has more new records occupy these positions.

By the way a Top 100 is a realistic possibility here given the sample size I will be using. It may well come down to just a few points at the bottom end at that but points are points.

[Splodj]

Just looked at RM 15-Aug-59 ...

One store has 'Tallahassee Lassie' by Tommy Steele. Another store has the flip 'Give! Give! Give!'. Another store specifies both sides. Another store combines 'Tallahassee Lassie' by Tommy Steele with Freddy Cannon.

You can see what these compilers were up against!

[MrTibbs]

I do think this is a great idea as I followed the original thread avidly also. It of course will be greatly time consuming as you're dealing with 30 to 60+ charts for each week instead of a maximum of 5 (though at least they're only top 10s).
The only caveat would be if for some reason they only publish a sampling of the dealer charts especially in the later years when they were using 60 or more.... This may not be a concern as I know that in one of the issues on the world history site for 1958 they had at least 52 dealers listed...

I think if I remember correctly David on the RM 1954/55 chart thread that I mentioned RM said they did not publish all their dealer returns yet like you mention above it seems from from they published it was close enough.

All or indeed a large sample is sufficient for my purposes. If RR between 1960 and 1963 could compile a Top 50 from 30 returns with probably a few titles left over below that then I should be able to go further with around 60 returns.
Wow ! So many artists are gonna add more hits to their fifties roster and some are gonna get the one hit they never knew they had.

[MrTibbs]

Just looked at RM 15-Aug-59 ...

One store has 'Tallahassee Lassie' by Tommy Steele. Another store has the flip 'Give! Give! Give!'. Another store specifies both sides. Another store combines 'Tallahassee Lassie' by Tommy Steele with Freddy Cannon.

You can see what these compilers were up against!

Thanks for reminding me Splodj what I'm up against . I remember those scenarios well in the original 54/55 RM chart where dealers supplied info like that and this time there will be around 60 to decipher. My head hurts already