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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Possibly 'Disc' gave the BBC a chart that week. It could have missed the earlier-than-usual Christmas deadline to be printed, and subsequently they decided it was not accurate enough anyway.

    I had thought that POTP did not need chart places for that week as it did a review of the year. However I see the playlist included risers 'Tea For Two' and 'The Day The Rains Came' - so maybe they did.
    That's possible. In the summer of 1959 during the printers strike a couple of the music papers did not publish, RM and Disc but continued to submit their weekly charts to the BBC for inclusion in the BBC chart. Given what Robbie said above and David's analysis of that BBC chart it is therefore possible that Disc submitted the charts they were 'holding back' to the BBC.
    The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

    The Way It Was Meant To Be

    Comment


    • Greetings Pop Pickers

      And .. so onto and into 1959, the final year of the UAC to complete the set 1955 to 1969.

      ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 3rd 1959

      Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

      The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 3rd 1959 NME MM DISC RM Total
      Last This The Sound Survey 75 25 40 60 Points
      Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
      1 1 It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty 1 1 1 1 4800
      2 2 Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI 2 2 2 2 4640
      3 3 Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan 3 4 3 3 4405
      5 4 Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra 4 3 4 6 4275
      4 5 Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio 5 5 5 4 4220
      8 6 Love Makes The World Go 'Round / Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como 6 7 6 5 3985
      9 7 The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan 7 6 7 9 3795
      6 8 It's All In The Game - Tommy Edwards 8 8 8 7 3740
      7 9 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard 9 9 9 8 3580
      16 10 More Party Pops - Russ Conway 10 10 10 10 3360
      10 11 Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele 11 11 11 11 3200
      13 12 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Ricky Nelson 12 12 12 13 2980
      12 13 More Than Ever - Malcolm Vaughan 13 13 14 12 2915
      11 14 Mary's Boy Child - Harry Belafonte 14 15 18 14 2545
      14 15 Come Prima / Volare - Marino Marini 16 19 13 16 2250
      25 16 Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey 17 17 19 20 2010
      15 17 A Certain Smile - Johnny Mathis 15 24 15 15 1885
      20 18 The Son Of Mary - Harry Belafonte 21 19 1470
      NEW 19 Cannonball - Duane Eddy 25 17 1290
      24 20 To Know You Is To Love You - The Teddy Bears 18 20 16 1200
      NEW 21 Baby Face - Little Richard 19 16 1125
      26 22 You Always Hurt The One You Love - Connie Francis 17 1050
      RE 23 Lonnie's Skiffle Party - Lonnie Donegan 18 780
      30 24 King Creole - Elvis Presley 22 675
      NEW 25 My Ukelele - Max Bygraves 23 600
      21 26 Mr Success - Frank Sinatra 20 26 375
      27 27 Stupid Cupid / Carolina Moon - Connie Francis 17 350
      28 28 Woman From Liberia - Jimmie Rodgers 27 300
      RE 29 Tulips From Amsterdam / You Need Hands - Max Bygraves 20 275
      18 30 Move It - Cliff Richard 28 225
      Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como (B) 14
      19 Winter Wonderland - Johnny Mathis 29 150
      23 Real Love - Ruby Murray 30 75
      17 Bird Dog - The Everly Brothers
      22 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Jodie Sands
      29 As I Love You - Shirley Bassey
      * Disc did not compile a chart again this week. As Disc did not compile a chart for 3rd January as well as 27th December it was not possible to take a reliable average for use in the UAC as their was no chart for the previous week to compare.
      The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

      The Way It Was Meant To Be

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
        it is therefore possible that Disc submitted the charts they were 'holding back' to the BBC.
        To a certain extent you can reverse engineer the missing contributory chart. For example, Edwards at 6.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Splodj View Post

          To a certain extent you can reverse engineer the missing contributory chart. For example, Edwards at 6.
          Good point, reverse engineer !!

          Also, was there any other music paper anywhere on the planet that carried the Disc charts, maybe in the USA, which may have printed 1 or 2 of them for these skipped weeks?

          Also, mathematically it is possible to create 2 bridged charts from 2 skipped weeks, you just calculate 2 equal distance chart position midpoints between the 2 known charts before and after, and rank those midpoints for each record on each midpoint chart. Noting that some new entries would not be included if those records hadn't been released yet, or hadn't yet appeared anywhere on the other music paper charts. Not 100% accurate, especially for records that might have/could have popped into the charts at a low position for just 1 or 2 weeks, but it can be done, it might be worth something, and might be better than skipping altogether.

          Comment


          • I think with one missed chart you can get away with bridging, especially at the year end when chart movement is considerably slower and more static. It does provide a reasonable, possible chart outcome between two chart positions which is then averaged with others that were compiled to balance out extreme outliers.

            But to apply this to a second missed chart allows the likelihood of a greater degree of error to creep in by diluting possible chart positions even further over a three week period and I am keen to keep the UAC as accurate as it is possible to be.

            I genuinely do consider every possibility carefully to try and deliver the best chart outcome in every circumstance.
            I know my methodology, depth of chart at times etc, doesn't appeal to everybody and has been open to question and debate at times over the course of the thread. Some of these suggestions have indeed been useful though and I took these on board to incorporate along the way.

            I put a lot of time into this project but it's not always easy.
            The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

            The Way It Was Meant To Be

            Comment


            • I think your right. A single week you can do the stats and if your using two weeks you end up with too much guesswork. I feel one week works. You can do the bridging here reality easily. There is actually a lot of maths theory here that shows that gaps can be recreated from two items either side. So if you have item-gap-item you can find out what the gap is with reasonable certainly. When it becomes item-gap-gap2-item, finding out which is which out of gap or gap2 starts to be much more open to variation.

              for example, in gap, how do we know Hoots Mon did not fall to 3 and then recover to 2 in gap2? Or do the reverse? So I feel that the maths backs up the approach of leaving this out, as MrTibbs has done.
              http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
              Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Splodj View Post

                To a certain extent you can reverse engineer the missing contributory chart. For example, Edwards at 6.
                The problem is that it may be 2 missing charts for calculating the BBC Chart. It is possible that both MM and Disc provided an 'interim' chart for the BBC. Without knowing for sure it is difficult to reconstruct. We can theoretically construct a 3rd chart fron the sum of the RM and NME chart that would be necessary to account for the BBC chart, but this would then be a composite of whatever data the MM and Disc provided (assuming they did provide anything).

                Incidently all different variants that I tried to compile the BBC chart last night had ties, whereas the BBC chart doesn't have ties. Coincidence or was someone tiebreaking?

                Comment


                • Again, there's something funky about the BBC Chart as there's no way that Frank Sinatra can be at 20 with the 3 charts as is.
                  However, except for the above, and A Certain Smile and Come Prima being switched, the 3 charts do fit perfectly.
                  Last edited by braindeadpj; Thu May 12, 2022, 03:08.

                  Comment


                  • Greetings Pop Pickers

                    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 10th 1959

                    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 10th 1959 NME MM DISC RM Total
                    Last This The Sound Survey 75 25 40 60 Points
                    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                    1 1 It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty 1 1 1 1 1 6000
                    2 2 Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI 2 2 2 2 2 5800
                    3 3 Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan 3 3 3 3 3 5600
                    4 4 Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra 4 4 5 7 5 5195
                    5 5 Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio 5 7 8 4 4 5075
                    6 6 Love Makes The World Go 'Round / Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como 6 6 7 5 6 5015
                    7 7 The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan 7 5 4 8 8 4925
                    9 8 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard 8 8 6 6 7 4790
                    20 9 To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears 10= 10 11 12 11 4035
                    11 10 Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele 10= 12 12 11 9 4020
                    8 11 It's All In The Game - Tommy Edwards 9 11 9 9 13 4010
                    21 12 Baby Face - Little Richard 12 9 10 20 10 3875
                    12 13 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Ricky Nelson 13 14 18 10 16 3340
                    13 14 More Than Ever - Malcolm Vaughan 14 17 13 13 17 3060
                    16 15 Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey 15 14 20 12 2690
                    19 16 Cannonball - Duane Eddy 16 23 14 19 14 2525
                    22 17 You Always Hurt The One You Love - Connie Francis 17 14 19 18 2355
                    25 18 My Ukelele - Max Bygraves 19 19 15 19 2020
                    24 19 King Creole - Elvis Presley 20 26 17 18 20 1905
                    17 20 A Certain Smile - Johnny Mathis 17= 20 16 15 1840
                    10 21 More Party Pops - Russ Conway 21 15 1710
                    RE 22 Real Love - Ruby Murray 22 14 1355
                    RE 23 As I Love You - Shirley Bassey 25 16 1050
                    28 24 Woman From Liberia - Jimmie Rodgers 18 975
                    NEW 25 Chantilly Lace - The Big Bopper 23 600
                    14 26 Mary's Boy Child - Harry Belafonte 17 560
                    15 27 Come Prima / Volare - Marino Marini 27 300
                    RE 28 Am I Wasting My Time On You - Frankie Vaughan 28 225
                    NEW 29 Queen Of The Hop - Bobby Darin 29 150
                    NEW 30 The World Outside - Ronnie Hilton 30 75
                    Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como (B) 13
                    18 The Son Of Mary - Harry Belafonte
                    23 Lonnie's Skiffle Party - Lonnie Donegan
                    27 Stupid Cupid / Carolina Moon - Connie Francis
                    26 Mr Success - Frank Sinatra
                    29 Tulips From Amsterdam / You Need Hands - Max Bygraves
                    30 Move It - Cliff Richard
                    The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                    The Way It Was Meant To Be

                    Comment


                    • Fairly static chart again for the top few spots. And most of the Christmas ish ones vanish (Lonnie’s Skiffle Party for example)
                      http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                      Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
                        there's no way that Frank Sinatra can be at 20 with the 3 charts as is.
                        You are right, but they did put it there because POTP played it as 20. Looks to me more like a fix than an error!

                        Incidentally, Platters 'Smoke Gets In Your Eyes' was played as a new release.
                        Last edited by Splodj; Thu May 12, 2022, 06:47.

                        Comment


                        • The presence of 'Mary's Boy Child' at number 17 on the Disc chart ws why I thought Disc may have included dealer returns from more than one week in their chart dated 10 January 1959. However looking at how other recordshave done on the Disc chart compared to other Charts for that week there's not much difference for most of the records though records like 'Baby Face' are out of sync with the other charts.

                          Comment


                          • I’ve noticed that both my favourite reads, this thread and kingofskiffle’s «70 years of UK singles charts» share a delicate and claryfying colouring.

                            Comment


                            • Kjell it is knowing that guys like you and every other loyal follower of this thread enjoy it and follow every chart that has made all the work blood sweat and tears in compiling it worthwhile. I genuinely thank you all
                              The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                              The Way It Was Meant To Be

                              Comment


                              • I just noticed that the NME stores has increased to 75 for 1959. Anymore increases planned this year?

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
                                  I just noticed that the NME stores has increased to 75 for 1959. Anymore increases planned this year?
                                  No David that was the last store adjustment of the fifties for NME to maintain the gradual store increase into 1960. MM and Disc though will increase a bit later in the year and RM will remain the same.
                                  The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                  The Way It Was Meant To Be

                                  Comment


                                  • Greetings Pop Pickers

                                    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 17th 1959

                                    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

                                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 17th 1959 NME MM DISC RM Total
                                    Last This The Sound Survey 75 25 40 60 Points
                                    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                    1 1 It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty 1 1 1 1 1 6000
                                    7 2 The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan 2 2 2 2 5 5620
                                    2 3 Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI 3 3 3 4 2 5620
                                    9 4 To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears 4 5 4 3 4 5365
                                    3 5 Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan 5 4 5 7 3 5315
                                    6 6 Love Makes The World Go 'Round - Perry Como (A) 6 8 6 5 7 4830
                                    12 7 Baby Face - Little Richard 7= 7 10 8 6 4745
                                    4 8 Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra 7= 6 8 10 9 4610
                                    5 9 Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio 9 12 9 6 8 4355
                                    8 10 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard 10 10 7 9 10 4315
                                    15 11 Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey 11 9 11 12 11 4110
                                    10 12 Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele 12 10 19 11 13 3755
                                    17 13 You Always Hurt The One You Love - Connie Francis 13 13 15 19 12 3370
                                    25 14 Chantilly Lace - The Big Bopper 14= 18 14 15 18 2820
                                    23 15 As I Love You - Shirley Bassey 16 16 13 17 20 2795
                                    18 16 My Ukelele - Max Bygraves 17 20 17 14 16 2755
                                    NEW 17 Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - The Platters 14= 17 12 15 2485
                                    16 18 Cannonball - Duane Eddy 18 22 16 14 2295
                                    13 19 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Ricky Nelson 19= 21 13 19 2190
                                    11 20 It's All In The Game - Tommy Edwards 19= 15 17 2040
                                    24 21 Woman From Liberia - Jimmie Rodgers 18 20 1415
                                    29 22 Queen Of The Hop - Bobby Darin 24 18 1045
                                    14 23 More Than Ever - Malcolm Vaughan 23 16 975
                                    22 24 Real Love - Ruby Murray 26 18 700
                                    NEW 25 You're The Top Cha - Al Saxon 24 525
                                    28 26 Am I Wasting My Time On You - Frankie Vaughan 27 300
                                    20 27 A Certain Smile - Johnny Mathis 20 275
                                    NEW 28 I'll Remember Tonight - Pat Boone 28 225
                                    30 29 The World Outside - Ronnie Hilton 29 150
                                    RE 30 Heartbeat - Buddy Holly 30 75
                                    Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como (B) 13
                                    19 King Creole - Elvis Presley
                                    21 More Party Pops - Russ Conway
                                    26 Mary's Boy Child - Harry Belafonte
                                    27 Come Prima / Volare - Marino Marini
                                    * Again either the BBC compilation is wrong or a typing error is as the manuscript lists both TD and LR at 7= but the points don't correspond with this.
                                    The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                    The Way It Was Meant To Be

                                    Comment


                                    • Suddenly Jane Morgan takes off into the top three. I just didn't like Little Richard's Baby Face it just didn't seem to suit his rock'n'roll usual style.
                                      After the festive break though the chart is now settling down.
                                      The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                      The Way It Was Meant To Be

                                      Comment


                                      • RE 30 Heartbeat - Buddy Holly

                                        This should have been a much greater hit. Sadly Buddy was mainly ignored in the UK until after his death.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                                          RE 30 Heartbeat - Buddy Holly

                                          This should have been a much greater hit. Sadly Buddy was mainly ignored in the UK until after his death.
                                          Brian I totally agree it was an injustice when Nick Berry could score a major hit with this in a version that was practically a carbon copy and Buddy's was relegated to the low twenties. Similarly True Love Ways should have been massive in 1960 but was all but ignored.
                                          My father was a massive fan and had all these early hits. In the late fifties he had nearly all Lonnie Donegan's stuff whom he also admired and Buddy's.

                                          In the year above Buddy is about to go massive with It Doesn't Matter Anymore. The Flip Raining In My Heart was also a class tune and should have been held back as it had the potential to be a big follow up hit in its own right.
                                          The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                          The Way It Was Meant To Be

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by brian05 View Post
                                            RE 30 Heartbeat - Buddy Holly

                                            This should have been a much greater hit. Sadly Buddy was mainly ignored in the UK until after his death.
                                            Yes a wonderful song. In fact all of his that chart in my opinion where wonderful. Any of his that people would suggest are overrated or not that good? (Genuine question as interested in the opinions).
                                            http://thechartbook.co.uk - for the latest are best chart book - By Decade!
                                            Now including NME, Record Mirror and Melody Maker from the UK and some Billboard charts

                                            Comment


                                            • I thought the flip was at least as good - 'Well Alright'. Difficult to say any of his were overrated when they performed so badly - even worse in the USA.

                                              Cousin Brucie had Sonny Curtis on his show recently and asked him if he remembered what he was doing when he heard of Holly's death. He replied he was staying with Jerry Allison and felt he had to go into his bedroom and wake up 'JA' and Peggy Sue to tell them the news.

                                              (Incidentally he said he had never really fought the law, it was just imagined!)

                                              Comment


                                              • Greetings Pop Pickers

                                                ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 24th 1959

                                                Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 24th 1959 NME MM DISC RM Total
                                                Last This The Sound Survey 75 25 40 60 Points
                                                Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                                2 1 The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan 2= 1 3 3 5 5630
                                                4 2 To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears 2= 4 4 2 2 5600
                                                1 3 It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty 1 5 1 1 3 5580
                                                7 4 Baby Face - Little Richard 4= 2 5 4 4 5525
                                                NEW 5 I Got Stung / One Night - Elvis Presley 4= 3 2 9 1 5505
                                                11 6 Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey 6= 6 7 8 7 4835
                                                3 7 Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI 6= 8 6 6 8 4730
                                                9 8 Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio 8 10 11 7 6 4535
                                                8 9 Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra 9 7 9 11 9 4470
                                                5 10 Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan 10= 11 12 10 11 4015
                                                6 11 Love Makes The World Go 'Round - Perry Como (A) 10= 12 15 5 12 4005
                                                15 12 As I Love You - Shirley Bassey 10= 9 8 14 13 3985
                                                17 13 Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - The Platters 13 14 13 15 10 3625
                                                14 14 Chantilly Lace - The Big Bopper 15 16 14 16 14 3170
                                                10 15 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard 14 18 10 12 16 3160
                                                12 16 Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele 16 13 13 15 3030
                                                13 17 You Always Hurt The One You Love - Connie Francis 17 15 16 19 18 2835
                                                NEW 18 Problems - The Everly Brothers 18 18 17 19 2045
                                                NEW 19 High School Confidential - Jerry Lee Lewis 19 22 19 17 1815
                                                18 20 Cannonball - Duane Eddy 22 20 20 1775
                                                25 21 You're The Top Cha - Al Saxon 20 17 20 1325
                                                19 22 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Ricky Nelson 26 17 935
                                                29 23 The World Outside - Ronnie Hilton 21 750
                                                21 24 Woman From Liberia - Jimmie Rodgers 30 18 595
                                                NEW 25 The World Outside - Russ Conway 24 525
                                                16 26 My Ukelele - Max Bygraves 25 450
                                                NEW 27 A Pub With No Beer - Slim Dusty 18 325
                                                20 28 It's All In The Game - Tommy Edwards 27 300
                                                NEW 29 I'll Be With You In Apple Blossom Time - Rosemary June 28 225
                                                NEW 30 The World Outside - The Four Aces 29 150
                                                Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como (B) 18
                                                Last Night On The Back Porch - Alma Cogan 30 75
                                                22 Queen Of The Hop - Bobby Darin
                                                23 More Than Ever - Malcolm Vaughan
                                                24 Real Love - Ruby Murray
                                                26 Am I Wasting My Time On You - Frankie Vaughan
                                                27 A Certain Smile - Johnny Mathis
                                                28 I'll Remember Tonight - Pat Boone
                                                30 Heartbeat - Buddy Holly
                                                The Record Mirror Chart Re-Calculated, Re-Worked, Extended

                                                The Way It Was Meant To Be

                                                Comment


                                                • I'm not keen on the number 1. It's an old fashioned sounding song even for the era in which it was released.

                                                  Comment


                                                  • A contested 'straight in at number one' that I missed off my list. My hunch is that RM got this one right.

                                                    Comment

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