The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 18th June 1966. Enjoy.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 18th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Strangers In The Night - Frank Sinatra					1	1	2	1	1	18800
NEW	2	Paperback Writer - The Beatles					2	2	1	2	2	18665
3	3	Monday Monday - The Mamas and Papas					3	3	3	3	3	17780
2	4	Paint It Black - The Rolling Stones					4	4	5	4	6	16725
8	5	Don't Bring Me Down - The Animals					6=	6	4	7	7	16190
5	6	Sorrow - The Merseys					5	5	7	5	4	16095
6	7	When A Man Loves A Woman - Percy Sledge					6=	7	6	6	5	15760
17	8	Don't Answer Me - Cilla Black					9	9	9	10	11	13700
4	9	Wild Thing - The Troggs					8	8	12	8	9	13520
7	10	Promises - Ken Dodd					10	11	11	9	8	13155
24	11	Sunny Afternoon - The Kinks					12	10	8	14	14	13095
15	12	Over Under Sideways Down - The Yardbirds					11	14	10	12	10	12335
21	13	River Deep Mountain High - Ike and Tina Turner					14	12	13	15	12	11515
10	14	Sloop John B - The Beach Boys					13	13	14	11	13	11380
14	15	Nothing Comes Easy - Sandie Shaw					15	17	15	13	16	9875
25	16	Nobody Needs Your Love - Gene Pitney					18	15	16	20	18	9155
9	17	Rainy Day Women Nos 12 & 35 - Bob Dylan					16	16	18	17	15	9010
11	18	Hey Girl - Small Faces					17	17	17	16	17	8990
13	19	Shotgun Wedding - Roy C					19	19	20	18	23	7130
16	20	Come On Home - Wayne Fontana					20	21	19	21	20	6935
12	21	Pretty Flamingo - Manfred Mann					21	20	21	19	22	6665
NEW	22	Hideaway - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					22	22	22	22	21	5800
19	23	Once There Was A Time / Not Responsible - Tom Jones					23	23	23	23	19	5420
NEW	24	Opus 17 - The Four Seasons					24	25	24	26	25	3960
18	25	I Love Her - Paul and Barry Ryan					25		25	24	24	2795
26	26	Stop Her On Sight - Edwin Starr					26	24	28	27		2550
NEW	27	Sweet Talkin' Guy - The Chiffons					27	27	26	29		2250
20	28	Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful					30=		27	30		1100
NEW	29	It's A Man's Man's Man's World - James Brown					29	26			30	1085
29	30	Twinkie Lee - Gary Walker					28	28			26	1025
		You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield								25	29	770
		Lady Jane - David Garrick					30=	30	29			700
		Lana - Roy Orbison						29				400
		Eight Miles High - The Byrds					30=				27	340
		The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters								28		300
		I Am A Rock - Simon and Garfunkel									28	255
		Sittin' On A Fence - Twice As Much							30			250

[MrTibbs]

Graham may I respectfully ask that if you wish to post your Real Charts and make comparisons with mine that you open a thread to share that information as my thread here is to solely post, share, and discuss my project of The Ultimate Averaged Charts. It gets confusing and focus is lost if we keep branching off into comparisons with your Real Charts and dilutes what I am trying to achieve here.

That said I still want to welcome you, your valuable input, and background knowledge in discussion around my charts here on this site. You have made many interesting thought provoking points along the way and I really do want those to continue but I just want to keep this thread entirely relevant to the topic in hand.
Thanks Graham.

[Graham76man]

I thought you like to see how small the differences are between the Real Chart (in Red) and Brian's. The same week as the 11 June 1966 (my 6 birthday) With blue sales figures

1 Strangers In The Night - Frank Sinatra 1 144K
2 Paint It Black - The Rolling Stones 3 109K
3 Monday Monday - The Mamas and Papas 2 110K
4 Wild Thing - The Troggs 5
5 Sorrow - The Merseys 4
6 When A Man Loves A Woman - Percy Sledge 7
7 Promises - Ken Dodd 6
8 Don't Bring Me Down - The Animals 9
9 Rainy Day Women Nos 12 & 35 - Bob Dylan 8
10 Sloop John B - The Beach Boys 15
11 Hey Girl - The Small Faces 11
12 Pretty Flamingo - Manfred Mann 16
13 Shotgun Wedding - Roy C 13
14 Nothing Comes Easy - Sandie Shaw 10
15 Over Under Sideways Down - The Yardbirds 17
16 Come On Home - Wayne Fontana 14
17 Don't Answer Me - Cilla Black 19
18 I Love Her - Paul and Barry Ryan 12
19 Once There Was A Time / Not Responsible - Tom Jones 22
20 Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful 18
21 River Deep Mountain High - Ike and Tina Turner 21
22 You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield 23
23 The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters 20
24 Sunny Afternoon - The Kinks 24
25 Nobody Needs Your Love - Gene Pitney 42 - hype indication
26 Stop Her On Sight - Edwin Starr 28
27 (You're My) Soul And Inspiration - The Righteous Brothers 38
28 Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 49 - Probably poor distribution as it's not new
29 Twinkie Lee - Gary Walker 27
30 Eight Miles High - The Byrds 29

California Dreamin' - The Mamas and Papas 25
Bang Bang - Cher 41
Opus 17 - The 4 Seasons 31 - correct spelling of the group - at that time!
Sweet Talkin' Guy - The Chiffons 32
Can't Live Without You - The Mindbenders 36
I Feel A Cry Comin' On - Hank Locklin 53
I'm Comin' Home Cindy - Trini Lopez 68 - never got higher than 40

Real Chart Only
Lady Jane - David Garrick 30 new to the 30
Machines EP - Manfred Mann 26 - Got as high as 20.

[Graham76man]

Published charts create their own dynamic, influencing what happens the following week. So if you could go back in time and have charts published based on actual sales instead and these were different, it would not just be entering a parallel universe - but branching parallel universes every week.

I not too clear on which of the published 60's charts effected the following weeks sales. All the paper based charts were sent out to the shops so they knew what these charts looked like. However I would have thought it would be confusing to the public. I have not heard of the BBC's own chart being sent out, so if you could remember the TOTP position or the Pick of The Pops one telling the shop keeper you wanted number 12 from that would see some blank looks.
What I do know is the ones falling down on these top 50 are always in the Real Chart 100 somewhere.

The Real Chart can be done retrospectively because every part of human life is recorded, they same way many of us recorded the songs on the top 40 shows. Just using technology that we just don't have - yet.
If I was to do a Marty McFly and travel back to 1966 and present each week the Real Chart to the public (all) then only the current week, I went there would be correct. As soon as the public saw the top 100, buying patterns would change. And the next chart would become incorrect, getting worse each week, especially if TOTP used the chart.
However I am not time travelling.

What I do know is that as the BMRB chart takes over, that should effect it's own chart. But in reality it doesn't. Especially when the shops start to layout the entire top 50 in the shops. But then not all shops laid out the full chart. Some went for as little as 20 or 10, places, especially when 12 Singles came along. With the public tending to pick up what is the charts as laid out in store. So that if the Official chart places a record outside the shops chart - be it a 30, 20 or 10 layout, that record will fall like a stone the following week. And in the the 30 and 20 and not on TV, climb fast! My findings however reveal that this is not the case. And the top 50 becomes a law onto itself. They only reason that would explain this would be the rules and the way the chart is made up. Again to represent a full NATIONAL chart when not ALL shops are taking part is to sample them. You take 10 shops to represent 50 for example. And weight the sales from 10 to turn them into 50. But the shops are not selling tins of baked beans or bread. It's entirely subjective. One out of the 10 might have been affected by bad weather. But 25 of the 50 might have been too. So overestimated sales and underestimated sales play a part. It's known regional sales and football records (unless it was a National team thing) were ignored by the National chart, regardless of how much they sell.
The point I am making is that the rules any chart uses, including Brian's chart, affect how that chart looks. And unless Brian can locate the weekly sales books of over 8,000 shops and add them up (I will settle for any week any year) then even Brian's chart is flawed and as bad as though 60's charts it's based on. By the way the more I read about these 60's chart compilations the number of shops listed as taking part is not as precise as the figures Brian's uses. And I have read that Record Retailer arrived too late to make up the BBC's own chart. So adding it's 85 shops seems to be retrospective anyway.
Don't get me wrong Brian. As I have said these charts you are doing are better than the BBC's charts at the time. But they are a creation of charts done after the events using methods and system of calculations you have invented to do the job. And they will have hyped records. Michael Cable in his 1977 book makes it clear that the papers and record companies openly negotiated with each other for placements in the charts for advertising space. At the end of the day Brian just because several of these charts have the same record at 19 doesn't mean that record sold lots of copies. It simply means that a number of record shops reported it as selling well. NOT 200 of them either perhaps 50, less in some charts.
As for the sameness, well the BBC finally gave up when the sameness gave a different number one in each chart. Hence the creation of the BMRB chart.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 11th June 1966. Enjoy.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 11th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Strangers In The Night - Frank Sinatra					1	1	1	1	1	19050
2	2	Paint It Black - The Rolling Stones					2	2	3	2	2	18165
4	3	Monday Monday - The Mamas and Papas					3	3	2	3	5	17860
3	4	Wild Thing - The Troggs					4	4	4	5	3	17130
5	5	Sorrow - The Merseys					5	5	5	4	4	16695
10	6	When A Man Loves A Woman - Percy Sledge					6	6	6	7	7	15690
8	7	Promises - Ken Dodd					7	7	7	8	6	15225
18	8	Don't Bring Me Down - The Animals					8	8	8	6	8	14805
9	9	Rainy Day Women Nos 12 & 35 - Bob Dylan					10	10	9	10	10	13585
7	10	Sloop John B - The Beach Boys					9	9	11	9	9	13470
11	11	Hey Girl - The Small Faces					11	13	12	11	11	12050
6	12	Pretty Flamingo - Manfred Mann					12	11	13	12	13	11930
12	13	Shotgun Wedding - Roy C					13	12	14	13	12	11465
14	14	Nothing Comes Easy - Sandie Shaw					14	16	10	14	14	11395
NEW	15	Over Under Sideways Down - The Yardbirds					15	15	16	15	15	9910
17	16	Come On Home - Wayne Fontana					16	17	15	18	16	9375
NEW	17	Don't Answer Me - Cilla Black					17	14	19	16	25	8410
19	18	I Love Her - Paul and Barry Ryan					18	25	17	19	17	7090
22	19	Once There Was A Time / Not Responsible - Tom Jones					19	21	20	20	18	6955
13	20	Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful					20	24	18	21	20	6585
NEW	21	River Deep Mountain High - Ike and Tina Turner					22	18	21	17		6500
16	22	You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield					21	20	23	23	19	6020
15	23	The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters					23	26	22	25	21	4700
NEW	24	Sunny Afternoon - The Kinks					25	22	24	24		4250
NEW	25	Nobody Needs Your Love - Gene Pitney					24	19	28	22		4050
30	26	Stop Her On Sight - Edwin Starr					26	23	26	30		2950
23	27	(You're My) Soul And Inspiration - The Righteous Brothers					28		25	28	27	2140
21	28	Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					27		27	29	23	1880
NEW	29	Twinkie Lee - Gary Walker					29	27		27	28	1455
28	30	Eight Miles High - The Byrds							29		24	1095
		California Dreamin' - The Mamas and Papas					30			26	26	925
		Bang Bang - Cher									22	765
		Opus 17 - The Four Seasons						29	30			650
		Sweet Talkin' Guy - The Chiffons						28				600
		Can't Live Without You - The Mindbenders						30				200
		I Feel A Cry Comin' On - Hank Locklin									29	170
		I'm Comin' Home Cindy - Trini Lopez									30	85

[Graham76man]

All the data on how the Real Chart is done can be found on my blog site. Just search "Real Chart Graham Appleyard" for it. The 1965 and 1966 charts full PDF's can be found on the 60's chart page of it. The 1967 charts are ongoing.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 4th June 1966 for your interest.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending June 4th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
3	1	Strangers In The Night - Frank Sinatra					1	1	1	1	1	19050
1	2	Paint It Black - The Rolling Stones					2	2	2	2	2	18415
2	3	Wild Thing - The Troggs					3	3	3	3	3	17780
7	4	Monday Monday - The Mamas and Papas					5	4	4	6	5	16860
5	5	Sorrow - The Merseys					4	5	5	4	4	16695
4	6	Pretty Flamingo - Manfred Mann					6	6	6	5	12	15465
6	7	Sloop John B - The Beach Boys					7	7	11	7	6	14325
12	8	Promises - Ken Dodd					8	9	9	8	8	14155
10	9	Rainy Day Women Nos 12 & 35 - Bob Dylan					10	11	7	12	7	13940
14	10	When A Man Loves A Woman - Percy Sledge					9	8	10	9	9	13920
9	11	Hey Girl - The Small Faces					11	12	8	11	10	13335
8	12	Shotgun Wedding - Roy C					12	10	12	10	11	12750
11	13	Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful					13	13	13	13	15	11260
25	14	Nothing Comes Easy - Sandie Shaw					14	15	15	17	14	10045
15	15	The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters					15	16	16	15	16	9625
13	16	You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield					16	19	14	14	17	9540
18	17	Come On Home - Wayne Fontana					17	14	17	18	18	9305
NEW	18	Don't Bring Me Down - The Animals					18	17	19	19	13	8530
21	19	I Love Her - Paul and Barry Ryan					19	18	18	16	19	8370
16	20	Bang Bang - Cher					20	20	20	21	22	6715
19	21	Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					21	23	21	20	24	5795
NEW	22	Once There Was A Time / Not Responsible - Tom Jones					23	21	24	24	20	5385
20	23	(You're My) Soul And Inspiration - The Righteous Brothers					22	29	22	22	25	4060
22	24	Alfie - Cilla Black					25	26	23	25		3600
26	25	Can't Live Without You - The Mindbenders					26	22	27	27		3200
17	26	Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel					24	25	28	23	26	3175
23	27	How Does That Grab You Darlin' - Nancy Sinatra					29		25	26	29	2170
NEW	28	Eight Miles High - The Byrds					30	28	26		30	1935
27	29	California Dreamin' - The Mamas and Papas					27	27		28	23	1780
NEW	30	Stop Her On Sight - Edwin Starr						23				1600
		Over Under Sideways Down - The Yardbirds					28	30		29	21	1250
		That's Nice - Neil Christian							29	30		600
		Twinkie Lee - Gary Walker						30			27	540
		I'm Comin' Home Cindy - Trini Lopez									28	255
		I Feel A Cry Comin' On - Hank Locklin							30			250

[MrTibbs]

I agree wholeheartedly Splodj. To quote yet again, we have what we have, and what we have is the actual history as it happened, imperfections and all. Nothing can overwrite that.

[Splodj]

Published charts create their own dynamic, influencing what happens the following week. So if you could go back in time and have charts published based on actual sales instead and these were different, it would not just be entering a parallel universe - but branching parallel universes every week.

[MrTibbs]

Like I said above though Graham, the times were what they were, nothing can change that, but although all the charts broadly disagreed on some of the record positioning they also broadly agreed on the same records within the actual top thirties themselves.

I don't believe the sixties charts were 'rotten' to the extent you suggest. Lower than 30 yes, open to manipulation, hence why MM reverted to a Top 30 back in 1967 and why even in the era of BMRB the BBC only used the Top 30.
I stand by the averaging principle I use as the best possible chart retrospectively. It is based on open transparent data available for all to see and be able to further examine and scrutinise.
It's not perfect, I have never claimed it to be such, no chart from the time was, but it is I believe the best possible.

You refer to your Real Chart using sales figures you have in comparison to my averaged chart which uses points so it would be of great interest to me, and probably others as well, if you could present the actual written evidence you have in a transparent and credible manner to support your database, calculations and methodology for the Real Chart positions, open to scrutiny, just like how I present my database and methodology here when posting The Ultimate Averaged Chart and welcome the same scrutiny.

[Graham76man]

Sorry but on this occasion I don't agree Graham. We don't know to what exact degree any individual record was hyped and how it actually affected individual chart positions so there is no way any chart can accurately determine this although we know it did go on.
Remember too that The Ultimate Averaged Chart is based purely on factual published chart positions supplemented by store returns to even it out further, counterbalancing any individual chart with a record out of sync with the other charts which may or may not be a hyped record. The example discussed above with The Small Faces is one example of the evidence of this counterbalance at work.

As to Geneveve it, on a points only system would have scored 5 points in the chart above, it was ranked 26 on a chart with 200 store returns. Although Tom Jones also scored 5 points his came from a chart with 85 store returns so Geneveve was the obvious correct placement on total points.

At the end of the day it is the records ranked with most points that place on the chart not the records that place on most charts.

Brian, err we do know what was hyped. The Real Chart doesn't include any record that was fiddled into the chart. The 1966 Real Charts were done well before you started to do these charts. I have been comparing what is in these top 30's with what the actual sales positions are from the Real Chart. I haven't been able to do that before. But your charts can show me and everyone else what records would have been in the top 30 and those that are either selling in low quantities from things like poor distribution, or those that have been hyped. Seeing that you are trying to create a top 30 of these charts, then it is bound to include records that were hyped into the component charts that make it up. Records, even ones that you would think were very popular with the public from the day they came out, were hyped into the charts. Sandie Shaw was only just in at 29, but all the charts show it higher than that, indicating some manipulation of the track going on.
In the compilation of the charts article records could be hyped into the top 30. One man at the time said that some would push records into the top 20. However record companies didn't have a clue of what was actually selling, since all they knew was how many records were sent out. Much like the distribution chart used in the Missing Hits book of the 1940's to 1952. To even hype a record there must be plenty of copies out there for people to really buy. And re-orders wouldn't start coming in for modest hits till the stocks ran low. The only way the record labels knew a record was selling was large re-orders. And most of them were top five sellers. Which the labels wouldn't need to fix!
Yes they say they used 200 stores, but that was not true. It was a sample of 200 stores. Had they actually used all 200 stores, plus rated the store on size and turnover then they would have got a much better chart, but they didn't. Besides the record companies knew all the stores. You could simply buy the list. But the reps on the ground would quickly know if the store was filling in returns for these papers. For Christ's sake EMI even told which shops for the Retailer to use!
So any "new" record more than ten places ahead of where the Real Chart has it that week, is either a chart error, but more likely hyped.
So the Geneveve record at 30 on any chart and 85 on the Real Chart was hyped. It was selling and that happens with nearly all the top 50 tracks. Largely because any record that makes one of these components charts will be there for the public to ask for when they go into a shop to buy it. Only a few rare occasions, such as the 1967 Jeff Beck (Silver) record, which makes the top 30's of several charts without even entering the Real Chart 100 and on RR chart for nearly six weeks too, before it enters the top 100, the public just refused to buy them.

Brian your chart is good, but it still made up of rotten charts being fiddled by very greedy people. That includes the record stores themselves. A friend of mine, who was often in Sheffield record shops doing odd jobs was told by one shop owner that they would often put down as the top seller a record they had plenty of copies that had shifted hardly any. He asked wouldn't the chart compilers pick up on that? No was the answer, for the other stores would probably be doing the same. The result of this was a chart entry, TOTP and people buying that record that wasn't selling!
It's not like downloads, the shops had to have say 300 singles to sell. If they didn't sell them they lost money. If people buy 5 downloads the shop hasn't lost any money. If people buy only 5 records out of 300, the shop has lost money.

[MrTibbs]

To be objective, and realistic, all of the charts were flawed back then pure and simple. Each had a degree of accuracy but not one could claim to be 100% accurate. Why ?, none used actual sales figures which has already been pointed out here a few times so without that they were all really only a guide to what was selling.

We all have our preferences as to which was the most representative and that debate rages on and shows no sign of abating.
But to be honest we will never realistically ever have the sales figures for the period to compile a completely accurate definitive chart. We have what we have and have to live with that fact.

So that said, it stands to reason that the best we can ever have is a robust composite chart, that takes account of all charts and by the averaging process eliminate the extremes and errors from each chart by finding the middle point which is probably the most accurate and reliable outcome we can ever expect.

I strive to pursue that goal for us all and hopefully am delivering the best outcome possible given the raw data I have to work with.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Agreed Brian.

In retrospect the lagging behind of RR (who ironically also used 'trend', but still lagged!) doesn't matter so much, and is not cited as a main reason for its unsuitability as the official chart. If it had got it's positions correct but one week later - who would care?

But at the time it mattered very much. Anyone who knew about the charts in the 60s regarded RR as the duffer because it was behind the others. So in the absence of weighting (which I agree would have been preferable but think would have been difficult to do at the time) I can understand why the BBC used anti-drag techniques, as their primary consideration was to produce a chart that was suitable for broadcast.

Good points, Splodj. However, it turns out RR is both: they were a lagger week to week (which might fluctuate over time), plus their peaks per record chart run disagreed the most often compared to the other charts, well for Top 10s anyway. Check out this study I did 3 years ago comparing the peaks of every Top 10 record March 1960 to Feb 1969, which chart had the most peak outliers, the distances from the average peak, also broken into 3 time periods when there were 5, 4, and 3 charts. RR was consistently the odd man out:

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...ts=&highlight=

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

I came across this snippet today posted in asm's Updated Chart History thread away back in March 2014 by our good friend RokinRobin.

'I personally wish that someone would construct new weekly composite charts for the 60s, all 520 of them, using the 5 major charts as you discuss (NME, MM, Disc, RM, RR), but weight them according to the number of record shops each one sampled. If the BBC had been doing this from the beginning, there wouldn't have been a need to go with the BMRB in Feb 1969, although eventually a national sales chart would had to have come into being'.

It's taken 6 years Robin but your wish is my command lol.

Ha, call me a sage or a prophet, foretelling the future. And Brian, you are the genie that made it all happen, 6 years later, LOL...

[Splodj]

In this case your weighting system actually aids the hypers of the charts. A straight forward points system would not put the Once - Geneveve at 30.

But if the BBC had calculated their chart properly Geneveve would also have been at number 30, jointly with Tom Jones, and with Alan Price at 29.

[MrTibbs]

Sorry but on this occasion I don't agree Graham. We don't know to what exact degree any individual record was hyped and how it actually affected individual chart positions so there is no way any chart can accurately determine this although we know it did go on.
Remember too that The Ultimate Averaged Chart is based purely on factual published chart positions supplemented by store returns to even it out further, counterbalancing any individual chart with a record out of sync with the other charts which may or may not be a hyped record. The example discussed above with The Small Faces is one example of the evidence of this counterbalance at work.

As to Geneveve it, on a points only system would have scored 5 points in the chart above, it was ranked 26 on a chart with 200 store returns. Although Tom Jones also scored 5 points his came from a chart with 85 store returns so Geneveve was the obvious correct placement on total points.

At the end of the day it is the records ranked with most points that place on the chart not the records that place on most charts.

[Graham76man]

In this case Disc got it right. The Real Chart has it at 11 on 55K.
Rolling Stones 206K at the top.

In this case your weighting system actually aids the hypers of the charts. A straight forward points system would not put the Once - Geneveve at 30. Giving it added weight over records that were on several charts, but not having that level of points.
Hyped because the Geneveve were only at 85 that week on genuine sales, the week before it was 44.

Ironic to say the least that trying to get the best results for the BBC charts, results in the chart being fiddled!

[MrTibbs]

Yeah Bob, MM and Disc are normally well aligned but on this occasion MM is actually out of step with all the others, even RR. The averaging process reigns it in to a more realistic No 9 position.

[BobPatience]

What is going on with 'Hey Girl'? Normally MM and Disc are a very agreeable couple, but somehow it is far ahead of the pack in MM, yet it lost 2 positions in Disc.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 28th May 1966 for your interest.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 28th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
6	1	Paint It Black - The Rolling Stones					1	1	1	2	1	18950
4	2	Wild Thing - The Troggs					2	2	2	1	2	18515
9	3	Strangers In The Night - Frank Sinatra					3	3	3	4	3	17680
1	4	Pretty Flamingo - Manfred Mann					4	4	4	3	4	17245
8	5	Sorrow - The Merseys					5	6	5	5	5	16310
2	6	Sloop John B - The Beach Boys					6	5	7	7	6	15725
14	7	Monday Monday - The Mamas and Papas					7	7	8	6	8	15005
5	8	Shotgun Wedding - Roy C					8	8	11	9	7	13840
10	9	Hey Girl - The Small Faces					10	12	6	11	10	13835
12	10	Rainy Day Women Nos 12 & 35 - Bob Dylan					9	9	10	8	9	13820
3	11	Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful					11	10	9	10	11	13500
17	12	Promises - Ken Dodd					12	11	13	12	12	12015
7	13	You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield					13	14	12	13	14	11395
24	14	When A Man Loves A Woman - Percy Sledge					14	13	14	15	15	10810
11	15	The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters					15	15	15	14	13	10430
13	16	Bang Bang - Cher					16	16	16	17	16	9425
16	17	Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel					17	20	18	16	17	8140
22	18	Come On Home - Wayne Fontana					19	17	21	21	21	7150
15	19	Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					18	23	19	19	18	6905
19	20	(You're My) Soul And Inspiration - The Righteous Brothers					20	28	17	18	19	6420
NEW	21	I Love Her - Paul and Barry Ryan					21	19	23	22	20	6235
18	22	Alfie - Cilla Black					22	21	20	20	29	6020
21	23	How Does That Grab You Darlin' - Nancy Sinatra					23	25	24	23	22	4515
20	24	Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors					24	27	22	26	24	4145
NEW	25	Nothing Comes Easy - Sandie Shaw					25	18	30	27	25	3760
NEW	26	Can't Live Without You - The Mindbenders					27	22	27	28	28	3355
29	27	California Dreamin' - The Mamas and Papas					26	24		24	23	2780
25	28	That's Nice - Neil Christian					28	29	26	25	27	2590
23	29	I Put A Spell On You - The Alan Price Set					30		25			1500
30	30	Once - Geneveve						26				1000
		Eight Miles High - The Byrds							28			750
		Walkin' My Cat Named Dog - Norma Tanega							29			500
		Once There Was A Time / Not Responsible - Tom Jones					29				26	425
		Highway Code - The Master Singers						30		29		400
		I Feel A Cry Comin' On - Hank Locklin								30	30	185

[Splodj]

Agreed Brian.

In retrospect the lagging behind of RR (who ironically also used 'trend', but still lagged!) doesn't matter so much, and is not cited as a main reason for its unsuitability as the official chart. If it had got it's positions correct but one week later - who would care?

But at the time it mattered very much. Anyone who knew about the charts in the 60s regarded RR as the duffer because it was behind the others. So in the absence of weighting (which I agree would have been preferable but think would have been difficult to do at the time) I can understand why the BBC used anti-drag techniques, as their primary consideration was to produce a chart that was suitable for broadcast.

[MrTibbs]

'Trend' was not fair though, it shouldn't matter whether the record was climbing or sliding, both held the same points. BUT that is now the beauty of The Ultimate Averaged system adding a further tier to the averaging criteria by factoring in store returns as this fairly separates records by points rather than by arbitrary chart movement trends.

[Graham76man]

I wonder what criteria NME used for separating the sides. In 1967 they listed separately Nancy Sinatra's 'You Only Live Twice' and 'Jackson'. Yet Discogs says 'Jackson' was the B-side, so was it separated because it was a duet with Lee Hazlewood?

Technically speaking it would have been a double AA side. The problem was that both sides of the record were popular and I think NME just let the retailers decide which side they listed in the returns. In this case the fault was with the record company. They should have not have put the two tracks on the same record. Both were strong enough to chart separately. On the Real Chart I only list Nancy, but this was for reasons of space. In the Chart Book S there is a footnote to say about the other side. The fact it stopped at 12 to me says a lot. And all down to the fact that the two sides weakened the sales of the record somehow.

[Splodj]

On the BBC charts I've analysed they did tiebreak in a majority of cases. The basis was 'trend '. There was not a consistent rule about when they did or did not tiebreak. But if pressed for a possible explanation regarding 21st May, I would say they did it for 3/4 because the Troggs were gaining fast and Spoonful were falling; but they didn't do it for 11/12 because the Faces and Dylan were going up at about the same speed.

I take Robin's point about 'trend' being an unfair method for tiebreaking, but I can see a justification for the BBC using it - namely, by the time POTP aired it was over a week since the sales period ended for that chart.

[MrTibbs]

I came across this snippet today posted in asm's Updated Chart History thread away back in March 2014 by our good friend RokinRobin.

'I personally wish that someone would construct new weekly composite charts for the 60s, all 520 of them, using the 5 major charts as you discuss (NME, MM, Disc, RM, RR), but weight them according to the number of record shops each one sampled. If the BBC had been doing this from the beginning, there wouldn't have been a need to go with the BMRB in Feb 1969, although eventually a national sales chart would had to have come into being'.

It's taken 6 years Robin but your wish is my command lol.