The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[kingofskiffle]

He worked with a lot of artists in his TV show and added his name to make them sell a bit more and start off. I think he did that with Kenny Ball in 1962 but am
unsure….. I know he did something at that point like ‘lonnie donegan presents…’ but might have the artist wrong!

[braindeadpj]

More BBC errors for 14/2/59: 19 Beverly Sisters - Little Drummer Boy (77)
20= Tommy Dorsey - Tea For Two Cha Cha (78)
20= Pat Boone - I'll Remember Tonight (78)

[MrTibbs]

More BBC errors for 14/2/59: 19 Beverly Sisters - Little Drummer Boy (77)
20= Tommy Dorsey - Tea For Two Cha Cha (78)
20= Pat Boone - I'll Remember Tonight (78)

Yeah you're right David the points totals doesn't justify their chart outcome yet again.

[Splodj]

There were extra rules applied to the bottom of their chart which are on the BBC file and quoted by RokinRobin on the 'POTP/TOTP number ones' thread here. They must have been aware of the weakness of applying 21 points to the gaps.

To be fair to the pore ol' Beeb, as soon as MM expanded to a Top 30 they started calculating 30 positions in order to make their Top 20 more robust. (This is often erroneously described as them enlarging to a BBC Top 30, but that didn't happen until the arrival of Radio 1 in 1967.)

[MrTibbs]

There were extra rules applied to the bottom of their chart which are on the BBC file and quoted by RokinRobin on the 'POTP/TOTP number ones' thread here. They must have been aware of the weakness of applying 21 points to the gaps.

To be fair to the pore ol' Beeb, as soon as MM expanded to a Top 30 they started calculating 30 positions in order to make their Top 20 more robust. (This is often erroneously described as them enlarging to a BBC Top 30, but that didn't happen until the arrival of Radio 1 in 1967.)

This was another of my issues with the BBC chart multiple ties and multiple errors aside. The system of allocating every record not on a chart 21 points (or later 31 points) threw the spanner of inaccuracy into the works. Not every uncharted record could be #21 some would have been lower, some much lower. So in effect it produced a chart that veered away from being factually correct especially at the lower end. It actually made a mockery of the points system as they were actually awarding points for unknown chart positions.

That is why I didn't even consider using this system for the UAC.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 21st 1959

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 21st 1959								NME	MM	DISC	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey					75	25	40	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
4	1	As I Love You - Shirley Bassey					1	1	1	1	2	5940
1	2	I Got Stung / One Night - Elvis Presley					2	2	2	2	1	5860
6	3	Does Your Chewing Gum Lose It's Flavour - Lonnie Donegan					3	4	5	3	3	5475
8	4	Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - The Platters					4	3	3	6	5	5360
2	5	To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears					5	6	4	4	4	5250
3	6	Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey					6	5	6	5	6	5115
5	7	Baby Face - Little Richard					7	7	8	9	7	4695
7	8	Problems - The Everly Brothers					8=	7	9	8	8	4650
10	9	A Pub With No Beer - Slim Dusty					8=	9	7	7	9	4530
13	10	(All Of A Sudden) My Heart Sings - Paul Anka					10=	12	14	12	10	3870
11	11	High School Confidential - Jerry Lee Lewis					10=	14	11	10	13	3695
9	12	The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan					13	10	12	15	15	3650
16	13	The Little Drummer Boy - The Beverly Sisters					12	15	10	11	14	3545
23	14	My Happiness - Connie Francis					14	16	16	16	11	3300
17	15	Petite Fleur - Chris Barber					15	11	13	20	16	3290
14	16	I'll Be With You In Apple Blossom Time - Rosemary June					16	17	17	14	16	2980
15	17	Wee Tom - Lord Rockingham's XI					18	19		19	12	2520
28	18	Gigi - Billy Eckstine					20	18	19		19	1995
12	19	It's OnLy Make Believe - Conway Twitty					19	21	18	13		1795
29	20	The Little Drummer Boy - The Harry Simeone Chorale					17	13	15			1750
18	21	Chantilly Lace - The Big Bopper						23			20	1260
NEW	22	Side Saddle - Russ Conway						23		17		1160
26	23	Stagger Lee - Lloyd Price						29			18	930
24	24	Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra						20				825
21	25	I'll Remember Tonight - Pat Boone						22				675
22	26	The World Outside - The Four Aces						29		18		670
19	27	Livin' Lovin' Doll - Cliff Richard						23				600
NEW	28	The Wonderful Secret Of Love - Robert Earl						28	20			500
25	29	Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan						26				375
RE	30	Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio						27				300
20		Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI
27		You Always Hurt The One You Love - Connie Francis
29		The World Outside - Ronnie Hilton

[Splodj]

That is why I didn't even consider using this system for the UAC.

If anyone can produce a database tutorial showing that counting chart points up is any different than counting chart points down I would be fascinated to see it.

The UAC is superior at the moment because it takes into account NMEs 21-30. When the BBC changed to calculating 30 positions it then had a Top 20 which contained very few records with an assumed 31 points. Their 21-30 calculations created a buffer zone to minimise this. ... Sorry, I'm beginning to sound like the BBCs defence attorney!

[MrTibbs]

The UAC is superior at the moment because it takes into account NMEs 21-30. When the BBC changed to calculating 30 positions it then had a Top 20 which contained very few records with an assumed 31 points. Their 21-30 calculations created a buffer zone to minimise this. ... Sorry, I'm beginning to sound like the BBCs defence attorney!

Ha Ha the UAC Top 30 doesn't have ANY records with an assumed 31 points (or 21 points as the case may be) so it didn't need a 'buffer zone' as it was factual all the way from #1 to #30. Every point was accounted for.

[Splodj]

All I can say is that when I calculate an unweighted composite from a set of Top 30s, it doesn't make any difference whether I tally the points downwards (1-31) or upwards (0-30) - the result is exactly the same. Perhaps I am doing something wrong.

I am persuaded that the UAC is superior to the BBC chart in many ways in any case, so it doesn't really matter.

[braindeadpj]

All I can say is that when I calculate an unweighted composite from a set of Top 30s, it doesn't make any difference whether I tally the points downwards (1-31) or upwards (0-30) - the result is exactly the same. Perhaps I am doing something wrong.

I am persuaded that the UAC is superior to the BBC chart in many ways in any case, so it doesn't really matter.

Applying 21 points for an unknown position (outside the top 20 on all the charts including the NME) when counting positions as the BBC did, has exactly the same effect as assigning no points for an out of the Top 20 chart position when using inverse points.

[MrTibbs]

hmmm, I don't quite agree David. I entered the #21 position for all missing places on the above chart for 21st February and re-calculated it and a couple of positions did change at the bottom end of the Top 20 and also some between 21 and 30.

[braindeadpj]

hmmm, I don't quite agree David. I entered the #21 position for all missing places on the above chart for 21st February and re-calculated it and a couple of positions did change at the bottom end of the Top 20 and also some between 21 and 30.

That is because the chart above is using the Top 30 for NME and not the Top 20. You'd have to assign 31 to everything outside the charts to be comparable with the UA

[MrTibbs]

Gotcha, my apologies for jumping the gun before thinking it through.

I forgot that at this time the BBC only considered the NME Top Twenty and not Top Thirty as I did for the UAC so they also awarded 21 points to the NME also.

[Splodj]

Also bear in mind the 'extra' BBC rules about the bottom end that Dave Taylor reported, as Robin relates here ...
https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...04#post9862904

[braindeadpj]

Also bear in mind the 'extra' BBC rules about the bottom end that Dave Taylor reported, as Robin relates here ...
https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...04#post9862904

This doesn't really explain the discrepancy in the BBC chart.for 14/2/1959 (the tied 20 position explanation for splitting) since The Beverly Sisters are actually at 19 and not 20 and are not tied.on points. Of the 2 that are tied in points at 20, the one included in the BBC chart (at 19) is actually declining (Tea for Two Cha Cha), while the other track (I'll Remember Tonight) would've been a new entry..

[Splodj]

I agree, and it doesn't explain the previous ones - Frank Sinatra was also going down. However I think it may indicate they were aware of a problem at the bottom end and were groping around for a way of dealing with it. It will be interesting to see if it settles down to the rule Dave described.

[MrTibbs]

This doesn't really explain the discrepancy in the BBC chart.for 14/2/1959 (the tied 20 position explanation for splitting) since The Beverly Sisters are actually at 19 and not 20 and are not tied.on points. Of the 2 that are tied in points at 20, the one included in the BBC chart (at 19) is actually declining (Tea for Two Cha Cha), while the other track (I'll Remember Tonight) would've been a new entry..

Yeah although the BBC had so called 'rules' they were applied very liberally by them and even so many mistakes, like above example happened again and again with increasing regularity as per my commentary above.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending February 28th 1959

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 28th 1959								NME	MM	DISC	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey					75	25	40	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	As I Love You - Shirley Bassey					1	1	2	1	2	5915
4	2	Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - The Platters					2	2	1	5	1	5765
2	3	I Got Stung / One Night - Elvis Presley					3	4	3	2	3	5565
3	4	Does Your Chewing Gum Lose It's Flavour - Lonnie Donegan					4	3	4	6	4	5395
9	5	A Pub With No Beer - Slim Dusty					5	6	7	3	6	5095
6	6	Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey					6	5	6	4	8	5035
5	7	To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears					7	7	5	7	5	4970
15	8	Petite Fleur - Chris Barber					9=	8	10	11	7	4490
13	9	The Little Drummer Boy - The Beverly Sisters					8	9	8	10	9	4385
8	10	Problems - The Everly Brothers					9=	9	9	8	10	4380
14	11	My Happiness - Connie Francis					12	12	13	12	11	3835
10	12	(All Of A Sudden) My Heart Sings - Paul Anka					13	11	12	14	12	3795
7	13	Baby Face - Little Richard					11	14	11	9	13	3735
22	14	Side Saddle - Russ Conway					15	22	15	16	15	2635
20	15	The Little Drummer Boy - The Harry Simeone Chorale					14	13	14	18		2295
18	16	Gigi - Billy Eckstine					18	16	20		17	2240
23	17	Stagger Lee - Lloyd Price					16=	15			14	2220
16	18	I'll Be With You In Apple Blossom Time - Rosemary June					20	23	17	19	20	2090
12	19	The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan					16=	16	19	15		2065
NEW	20	Tomboy - Perry Como						19			18	1680
11	21	High School Confidential - Jerry Lee Lewis					19	25		13		1170
28	22	The Wonderful Secret Of Love - Robert Earl						18				975
NEW	23	Wait For Me / Willingly - Malcolm Vaughan						28			19	945
17	24	Wee Tom - Lord Rockingham's XI									16	900
26	25	The World Outside - The Four Aces						24	18			850
NEW	26	The Little Drummer Boy - Michael Flanders						20				825
NEW	26	It Doesn't Matter Anymore - Buddy Holly						20				825
25	28	I'll Remember Tonight - Pat Boone						27		20		740
19	29	It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty								17		560
NEW	30	Maybe Tomorrow - Billy Fury						26				375
		Beep Beep - The Playmates							16			375
		Manhattan Spiritual - Reg Owen						29				150
		The Love Game - The Mudlarks						30				75
27		Livin' Lovin' Doll - Cliff Richard						30				75
21		Chantilly Lace - The Big Bopper
24		Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra
29		Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan
30		Tom Dooley The Kingston Trio

[MrTibbs]

Disc are way off the mark with The Platters and in comes Buddy Holly heading for his only UK chart topper. Oh what might have been !

[Splodj]

Funny how NME and RM were so different in how long they thought Shirley and The Platters were at number one. (RM not even giving Shirley one week!) In that respect Disc were straight down the middle, giving them each 3 weeks atop.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending March 7th 1959

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 7th 1959								NME	MM	DISC	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey					75	25	40	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	As I Love You - Shirley Bassey					1=	1	2	1	2	5915
2	2	Smoke Gets In Your Eyes - The Platters					1=	2	1	2	1	5885
5	3	A Pub With No Beer - Slim Dusty					3=	3	5	3	5	5430
4	4	Does Your Chewing Gum Lose It's Flavour - Lonnie Donegan					3=	4	4	5	3	5420
3	5	I Got Stung / One Night - Elvis Presley					5	7	3	4	4	5200
6	6	Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me - Shirley Bassey					6	5	8	6	11	4725
14	7	Side Saddle - Russ Conway					7	8	7	10	6	4665
8	8	Petite Fleur - Chris Barber					10	6	11	11	8	4555
9	9	The Little Drummer Boy - The Beverly Sisters					8=	9	9	8	9	4440
11	10	My Happiness - Connie Francis					11	10	12	9	7	4370
7	11	To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears					8=	12	6	7	10	4270
10	12	Problems - The Everly Brothers					12=	12	13	12	13	3715
12	13	(All Of A Sudden) My Heart Sings - Paul Anka					12=	11	10	14	15	3665
17	14	Stagger Lee - Lloyd Price					15	15	15	16	12	3340
13	15	Baby Face - Little Richard					14	14	14	13	16	3320
26	16	It Doesn't Matter Anymore - Buddy Holly					16	17	18	17	14	2955
16	17	Gigi - Billy Eckstine					20	19		19	18	2160
15	18	The Little Drummer Boy - The Harry Simeone Chorale					17=	16	16	18		2020
19	19	The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan					17=	18	17	15		1965
20	20	Tomboy - Perry Como					19	20	19		17	1965
NEW	21	Manhattan Spiritual - Reg Owen						23			19	1320
18	22	I'll Be With You In Apple Blossom Time - Rosemary June						25	20	20		1165
22	23	The Wonderful Secret Of Love - Robert Earl						21				750
30	24	Maybe Tomorrow - Billy Fury						22				675
NEW	25	C'mon Everybody - Eddie Cochran									20	660
RE	26	The World Outside - Russ Conway						24				525
28	27	I'll Remember Tonight - Pat Boone						26				375
26	28	The Little Drummer Boy - Michael Flanders						27				300
RE	29	Livin' Lovin' Doll - Cliff Richard						28				225
NEW	30	Donna - Ritchie Valens						29				150
		Donna - Marty Wilde						30				75
21		High School Confidential - Jerry Lee Lewis
23		Wait For Me / Willingly - Malcolm Vaughan
24		Wee Tom - Lord Rockingham's XI
25		The World Outside - The Four Aces
29		It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty

[MrTibbs]

Numbers 1 and 2 were obviously close sales wise this week.
Slim Dusty's 'Pub' was really popular and probably the most sung and performed song by all the amateur performers in the pubs and clubs at the time.
Winifred Atwell must have been seriously p****d off at the time. Russ Conway stole her thunder not only in stand alone piano hits but copied her formula of piano medleys too and swept her aside in 1959.

I have to express my eternal disappointment that in 1959 the beautiful, haunting, heart wrenching, 'Since I Don't Have You' by The Skyliners was totally ignored over here. It is one of my very favourite records of any era and still blows me away.

[Splodj]

Interesting to see how the Shirls/Platters battle is played out in the UAC. So far it looks like reflecting a Disc-type middle way!

It may be that sales of the two were close but, after looking at those Gallup figures, alternatively it may be that one or more charts were way out and simply wrong. (In 84 we are coming up to a Phil Collins record that was number one for 4 weeks in MM and I shall be looking to see how close the sales were.) In this case it could be that one of them was a long term number one and the other not at all or for only 1 week - as NME and RM claim.

[brian05]

19 29 It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty
NEW 30 Maybe Tomorrow - Billy Fury

Did Billy Fury not record It's only make believe, or is that a different song?

[kjell]

Billy’s version hit the charts July 64 and climbed to 10.