Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • MrTibbs
    replied
    My one nagging doubt I can't shake though is just how popular these old RM Charts will be. It will be an enormous amount of work and time spent for possibly just a handful of interested parties. Too far back for most.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    If you have the time while compiling the dealer returns, it may be worth looking at regions too - of course you might find the majority of the returns are London, but if there are enough from elsewhere, you may be able to identify some regional hits (those that hit "big" in a specifric region or even more localized such as town?) and not elsewhere - or alternatively those that made the top 20 overall and the top 5 or higher in one region). Of course they may add too much additional work as its going to be pretty intensive work as it is (as Splodj highlights above!).

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 20th 1958

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 20th 1958 NME MM DISC RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey 65 25 40 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty 1 1 1 2 1 5660
    1 2 Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI 2 2 3 1 2 5525
    3 3 Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan 3 3 2 3 3 5345
    5 4 Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio 4 6 4 5 4 4960
    8 5 Love Makes The World Go 'Round / Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como 6= 7 6 7 5 4770
    4 6 It's All In The Game - Tommy Edwards 5 5 5 6 8 4720
    7 7 Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra 8 4 8 8 7 4690
    6 8 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard 6= 8 7 4 6 4675
    10 9 More Than Ever - Malcolm Vaughan 9 9 12 10 11 3945
    12 10 Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele 10= 12 11 11 9 3855
    15 11 The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan 10= 11 10 12 10 3845
    9 12 A Certain Smile - Johnny Mathis 10= 13 9 9 12 3740
    20 13 Mary's Boy Child - Harry Belafonte 13 10 13 13 14 3555
    13 14 Come Prima / Volare - Marino Marini 14 14 14 16 15 3090
    14 15 Bird Dog - The Everly Brothers 16 20 15 14 19 2515
    11 16 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Ricky Nelson 15 15 17 13 2470
    28 17 The Son Of Mary - Harry Belafonte 17 18 16 17 2060
    21 18 King Creole - Elvis Presley 18 22 18 16 1810
    24 19 More Party Pops - Russ Conway 16 20 1635
    19 20 Real Love - Ruby Murray 19= 18 17 1405
    NEW 21 Heartbeat - Buddy Holly 19= 20 15 915
    16 22 Stupid Cupid / Carolina Moon - Connie Francis 25 20 830
    NEW 23 Cha Cha Momma Brown - Martinas and His Orchestra 18 780
    17 24 Move It - Cliff Richard 24 19 755
    18 25 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Jodie Sands 21 650
    NEW 26 To Know Him Is To Love Him - The Teddy Bears 30 18 585
    27 27 Fallin' - Connie Francis 23 520
    22 28 Susie Darlin' - Robin Luke 19 480
    NEW 29 Winter Wonderland - Johnny Mathis 25 390
    23 29 Mr Success - Frank Sinatra 25 390
    As I Love You - Shirley Bassey 28 195
    Woman From Liberia - Jimmie Rodgers 28 195
    25 Summertime Blues - Eddie Cochran
    26 Lonnie's Skiffle Party - Lonnie Donegan
    29 My True Love - Jack Scott
    Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como (B) 17

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Oops with all the above going on I forgot all about today's chart to post, here it is now.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    Just looked at RM 15-Aug-59 ...

    One store has 'Tallahassee Lassie' by Tommy Steele. Another store has the flip 'Give! Give! Give!'. Another store specifies both sides. Another store combines 'Tallahassee Lassie' by Tommy Steele with Freddy Cannon.

    You can see what these compilers were up against!
    Thanks for reminding me Splodj what I'm up against . I remember those scenarios well in the original 54/55 RM chart where dealers supplied info like that and this time there will be around 60 to decipher. My head hurts already

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    I do think this is a great idea as I followed the original thread avidly also. It of course will be greatly time consuming as you're dealing with 30 to 60+ charts for each week instead of a maximum of 5 (though at least they're only top 10s).
    The only caveat would be if for some reason they only publish a sampling of the dealer charts especially in the later years when they were using 60 or more.... This may not be a concern as I know that in one of the issues on the world history site for 1958 they had at least 52 dealers listed...
    I think if I remember correctly David on the RM 1954/55 chart thread that I mentioned RM said they did not publish all their dealer returns yet like you mention above it seems from from they published it was close enough.

    All or indeed a large sample is sufficient for my purposes. If RR between 1960 and 1963 could compile a Top 50 from 30 returns with probably a few titles left over below that then I should be able to go further with around 60 returns.
    Wow ! So many artists are gonna add more hits to their fifties roster and some are gonna get the one hit they never knew they had.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Just looked at RM 15-Aug-59 ...

    One store has 'Tallahassee Lassie' by Tommy Steele. Another store has the flip 'Give! Give! Give!'. Another store specifies both sides. Another store combines 'Tallahassee Lassie' by Tommy Steele with Freddy Cannon.

    You can see what these compilers were up against!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by kjell View Post
    I&#8217
    The really big breakthrough for the years 55-61 will be MrTibbs coming RM extended singles chart for those years that will produce a wealth of new hits in the UK that will revolutionize our knowledge and widen our scope of this era. I wholeheartedly support his conclusions this morning in this thread.
    I think the extended RM chart will come as a revelation to us all Kjell. We will see so many records and artists that have gone unnoticed and undocumented finally garner recognition. I particularly want to see what was happening underneath the RM Top 20. If you look closely at the 21 to 30 positions in the NME so often many of these positions are occupied by re-entries or records moving down the chart slowly. I want to see if RM follows the same pattern or actually has more new records occupy these positions.

    By the way a Top 100 is a realistic possibility here given the sample size I will be using. It may well come down to just a few points at the bottom end at that but points are points.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post

    Two, I do intend at some point in the late summer to get to London and get hold of the remaining RM dealer charts and make a start on compiling a definitive extended RM chart for the period the RM dealer charts were available. I see huge value in this project, the basic templates are all there and just need work to deliver even a larger chart for the fifties than NME. Originally I planned to make this a RM Top 50 but have reconsidered this as I now plan to compile a chart that may be much bigger depending on the volume of records that appear on the dealer charts. It may reach a Top 75 and possibly even a Top 100. Imagine that, a Top 100 chart for the second half of the fifties. Now there's a chart for posterity. Even more interesting will be the ability to compare the years 1960 and 1961 in an extended RM chart with the early RR Top 50 and even a bigger chart ha !

    This project therefore will be a herculean task. On the UAC at most I was working with 5 charts on a weekly basis. With the RM chart I am going to be averaging around 60 a week but the end result will be well worth it.
    So this is the principal reason I don't want to undertake a big new project now. Yes I will factor in the missed end of year charts in the meantime.

    I just hope because of the work involved, which I don't really mind, that there is as much interest in an extended RM chart as there has been for the UAC.
    I knew this was also planned and so didn't suggest it. I do think this is a great idea as I followed the original thread avidly also. It of course will be greatly time consuming as you're dealing with 30 to 60+ charts for each week instead of a maximum of 5 (though at least they're only top 10s).
    The only caveat would be if for some reason they only publish a sampling of the dealer charts especially in the later years when they were using 60 or more.... This may not be a concern as I know that in one of the issues on the world history site for 1958 they had at least 52 dealers listed...

    The other ideas are just food for thought for you (and others) as to what could be interesting to pursue. None were meant to detract from the quality and importance of the UAC.
    I don't know how much the music paper's album charts differed from each other as I don't have access to all the data - though perhaps that may be rectified in 2026 if Lonnie's comment about celebrating the 70th Anniversary of the Albums chart is true!- but that may be worth looking at.....

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    I’ve been considering the possibility of making a top 10 LP chart based on the RM extended chart that MrTibbs will be making. Colin Driscolls book don’t give the answer since it only records the upward trends and not the downward ones. We will know the answer to this question when RM extended is completed till the spring of 61. My guess is that it will make it possible to make a top 10 LP chart for much of the time but probably not for all weeks. However, a top 8 or 9 for the difficult weeks will be interesting enough to make it worthwhile by adding a high percentage of new LP hits.
    The really big breakthrough for the years 55-61 will be MrTibbs coming RM extended singles chart for those years that will produce a wealth of new hits in the UK that will revolutionize our knowledge and widen our scope of this era. I wholeheartedly support his conclusions this morning in this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    Wonder why Cliff released a follow-up so soon to his first hit?
    To maximise sales at Christmas time?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    NEW 19 Real Love - Ruby Murray

    An early cover of a Beatles future song? Surely not!
    Fear not Brian, it was a dull boring ballad that didn't perform well chartwise, not The Beatles splendid song of the same name.

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    NEW 19 Real Love - Ruby Murray

    An early cover of a Beatles future song? Surely not!


    6 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard
    17 Move It - Cliff Richard

    Wonder why Cliff released a follow-up so soon to his first hit? Surely sales of Move It were holding back progress of High Class Baby.


    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    But didn't RM ask their dealers to complete separate Single and LP returns?

    In any case the LP charts were rather unexciting at this time. I was just suggesting how anyone could quickly calculate a more reliable Top 10 than the 'official' one for any week.

    I see that you also call them LPs. In those day Albums were for photos and stamps!

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post

    To produce a survey-based 'LP Top 10' for this period you could simply take the RM Top 5 and then arrange the other records in MM order for 6-10.
    I would imagine that more LP's would appear when doing the RM ultimate chart above and so a larger Top 10 could work.

    I'm happy to wait I think and see the new Record Mirror listings if you can get to London Mr Tibbs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    You could consider an UAC-style album chart
    To produce a survey-based 'LP Top 10' for this period you could simply take the RM Top 5 and then arrange the other records in MM order for 6-10.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    In the last week's position for Fallin' on the December 13th chart you have 28, but on the 6th December chart Falling was at 27 (as you have listed under the drop outs!).
    Thanks David that's been corrected above.

    As to your other suggestions.

    I don't really want to get into another alternative UAC kind of scenario for two reasons. One, any others would dilute it's effect and muddy the waters thus detracting from it's 'Ultimate' status which it is as it uses the 'main' charts of the day consistently.
    I considered so many other charts when planning it, Pop Weekly 62 to 65, Top Pops 68 to 69, for example but in the end discounted them as they were short lived and when looking at them in detail many of their chart positions were way off the scale even more so than RR. So I stuck to the main players.

    I seriously considered factoring in the 'Sheet Music Chart' for the fifties but decided against this as because it was a 'song' as opposed to a 'record' chart it did not match. Also because the record charts often had competing versions but the sheet chart position included all versions under the song banner it would be impossible to allocate points to versions on the record charts. As you have seen this decade was difficult enough with split sides without trying to work out a system for this too. So I abandoned the idea and stuck to the tried and true.

    Two, I do intend at some point in the late summer to get to London and get hold of the remaining RM dealer charts and make a start on compiling a definitive extended RM chart for the period the RM dealer charts were available. I see huge value in this project, the basic templates are all there and just need work to deliver even a larger chart for the fifties than NME. Originally I planned to make this a RM Top 50 but have reconsidered this as I now plan to compile a chart that may be much bigger depending on the volume of records that appear on the dealer charts. It may reach a Top 75 and possibly even a Top 100. Imagine that, a Top 100 chart for the second half of the fifties. Now there's a chart for posterity. Even more interesting will be the ability to compare the years 1960 and 1961 in an extended RM chart with the early RR Top 50 and even a bigger chart ha !

    This project therefore will be a herculean task. On the UAC at most I was working with 5 charts on a weekly basis. With the RM chart I am going to be averaging around 60 a week but the end result will be well worth it.
    So this is the principal reason I don't want to undertake a big new project now. Yes I will factor in the missed end of year charts in the meantime.

    I just hope because of the work involved, which I don't really mind, that there is as much interest in an extended RM chart as there has been for the UAC.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    In the last week's position for Fallin' on the December 13th chart you have 28, but on the 6th December chart Falling was at 27 (as you have listed under the drop outs!).

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Also in the 80s there are several Indie charts or Rock charts available - some of which have recently been posted on UKMIX. A combination of these different charts may be interesting, though I think it'd need to be a straight forward inverse points for each chart as we don't know how many stores were used for each (in some cases it may be just one location - perhaps best not to use single location ones?).

    Another option would be a combination US one, though again due to the inclusion of airplay it'd probably again need to be just an inverse points system - unless there is some indication of the market coverage (air play and sales for the retrospective compilers).

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Another option could be a combined sheet music UAC chart? You could either do it by song (a la the sheet music) or a singles chart, - though how to handle multiple artists covering the same song could be triicky to work out.

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Hello Brian,
    I was thinking about possible future projects you could perform (if you wanted to).

    You could consider an UAC-style album chart for the 50s/60s. I know NME were a bit late to the party (so to speak) but wasn't there an RM and MM in '58 - though is it worth it from just 2 papers (when did Disc start an Album chart)??

    An EP chart UAC - probably not enough overlapping weeks for each of the newspapers, and how to handle it when they don't have their own EP chart, but include them in the main chart?).

    You could also compile a chart of the year for each one of the UAC's years - though of course if you were going to base it on the points scored you'd need to work out a way to normalize things when the number of stores changed (or number of positions or number of charts) otherwise you're likely to be biased towards the end of the year (for that reason an inverse points system on the position may be better?). Also perhaps a Top UAC Chart where you look at all of the charts to compile a Top chart of the 50s/60s - though again you have the problem with changing number of charts, changing number of stores and changing length of charts? Perhaps this type of problem could be rectified by normalizing to percentage of maximum score possible achieved each week and then multiplying that by the number of positions. Then you'd get say 30 points (perhaps 100 would be easier?) if you were no.1 and were no.1 on all charts and this would decline as your proportion of the maximum score declined.

    Also how many different sheet music charts are there?
    Last edited by braindeadpj; Sun May 8, 2022, 20:17.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 13th 1958

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 13th 1958 NME MM DISC RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey 65 25 40 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI 1 1 2 1 1 5675
    2 2 It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty 2 2 1 2 2 5535
    3 3 Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan 3 3 3 3 3 5320
    4 4 It's All In The Game - Tommy Edwards 4 4 4 4 5 5070
    6 5 Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio 5 6 5 6 4 4895
    8 6 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard 6 7 7 5 6 4700
    9 7 Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra 8= 5 10 11 7 4455
    12 8 Love Makes The World Go 'Round / Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como 7 8 8 8 8 4370
    7 9 A Certain Smile - Johnny Mathis 8= 11 6 7 9 4205
    5 10 More Than Ever - Malcolm Vaughan 10 10 9 9 11 3995
    13 11 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Ricky Nelson 11 9 12 10 13 3825
    14 12 Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele 12 13 13 13 10 3600
    11 13 Come Prima / Volare - Marino Marini 13 11 11 16 12 3540
    10 14 Bird Dog - The Everly Brothers 14 15 15 12 14 3220
    22 15 The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan 15 14 19 15 15 3005
    15 16 Stupid Cupid / Carolina Moon - Connie Francis 18= 20 17 17 20 2285
    16 17 Move It - Cliff Richard 16= 25 16 20 16 2105
    18 18 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Jodie Sands 20 19 18 17 1945
    NEW 19 Real Love - Ruby Murray 18 20 19 1600
    21 20 Mary's Boy Child - Harry Belafonte 16= 17 14 1590
    17 21 King Creole - Elvis Presley 18= 27 14 18 1465
    20 22 Susie Darlin' - Robin Luke 24 18 975
    RE 23 Mr Success - Frank Sinatra 29 19 850
    26 24 More Party Pops - Russ Conway 21 650
    23 25 Summertime Blues - Eddie Cochran 22 585
    28 26 Lonnie's Skiffle Party - Lonnie Donegan 23 520
    27 27 Fallin' - Connie Francis 26 325
    NEW 28 The Son Of Mary - Harry Belafonte 27 260
    19 29 My True Love - Jack Scott 30 65
    Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como (B) 16
    24 It's So Easy - The Crickets
    25 I'll Get By - Connie Francis (A)
    29 Topsy - Cozy Cole
    30 Gee But It's Lonely - Pat Boone

    Leave a comment:


  • braindeadpj
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post

    I agree that the most likely explanation is that they are errors.

    However as that week is completely tie-free it might have been an early attempt at tiebreaking. eg Marino above 6 in 2 charts, Poni-Tails above 20 in 2 charts.

    Even if tried, clearly abandoned the following week.
    Yes that could be a possible interpretation..... Maybe someone different calculated the chart that week.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers

    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending December 6th 1958

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 6th 1958 NME MM DISC RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey 65 25 40 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Hoots Mon - Lord Rockingham's XI 1 1 1 1 1 5700
    2 2 It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty 2 2 2 2 2 5510
    5 3 Tom Dooley - Lonnie Donegan 3 3 4 3 3 5295
    3 4 It's All In The Game - Tommy Edwards 4 3 3 4 4 5220
    8 5 More Than Ever - Malcolm Vaughan 5 7 7 5 6 4700
    16 6 Tom Dooley - The Kingston Trio 6= 8 6 8 5 4600
    4 7 A Certain Smile - Johnny Mathis 6= 5 5 7 10 4560
    10 8 High Class Baby - Cliff Richard 8 9 10 9 7 4275
    15 9 Tea For Two Cha-Cha - The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra 10 6 9 16 8 4155
    6 10 Bird Dog - The Everly Brothers 9 13 8 6 11 3945
    7 11 Come Prima / Volare - Marino Marini 11 12 11 11 9 3855
    9 12 Love Makes The World Go 'Round / Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como 12 10 12 10 13 3760
    14 13 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Ricky Nelson 13 10 13 15 14 3475
    11 14 Come On Let's Go - Tommy Steele 14 14 14 13 12 3390
    13 15 Stupid Cupid / Carolina Moon - Connie Francis 15 16 15 12 15 3095
    12 16 Move It - Cliff Richard 16 15 17 14 16 2970
    17 17 King Creole - Elvis Presley 17 27 16 19 17 1955
    20 18 Someday (You'll Want Me To Want You) - Jodie Sands 18 17 20 19 1905
    18 19 My True Love - Jack Scott 19= 18 19 20 1585
    22 20 Susie Darlin' - Robin Luke 19= 23 18 18 1365
    24 21 Mary's Boy Child - Harry Belafonte 20 17 1275
    NEW 22 The Day The Rains Came - Jane Morgan 24 18 1235
    21 23 Summertime Blues - Eddie Cochran 19 780
    RE 24 It's So Easy - The Crickets 20 660
    19 25 I'll Get By - Connie Francis (A) 22 585
    29 26 More Party Pops - Russ Conway 25 390
    19 27 Fallin' - Connie Francis (B) 26 325
    23 28 Lonnie's Skiffle Party - Lonnie Donegan 28 195
    NEW 29 Topsy - Cozy Cole 29 130
    NEW 30 Gee But It's Lonely - Pat Boone 30 65
    Mandolins In The Moonlight - Perry Como (B) 21
    25 Born Too Late - The Poni-Tails
    26 Volare - Dean Martin
    27 More Than Ever - Robert Earl
    27 Poor Little Fool - Ricky Nelson
    * Connie Francis' split sides allowed to chart this week as both sides only chart on NME.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by braindeadpj View Post
    On the 22nd November Chart, the BBC made a couple of errors
    I agree that the most likely explanation is that they are errors.

    However as that week is completely tie-free it might have been an early attempt at tiebreaking. eg Marino above 6 in 2 charts, Poni-Tails above 20 in 2 charts.

    Even if tried, clearly abandoned the following week.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X