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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    But none of the charts actually used ALL the returns the figures suggest. They only used a proportion of them and rotated them to get a sample. The idea being that the chart hypers would not know which of the much smaller shops sample made the returns. But the rub was that all the record companies knew which shops took part so they could target the vast majority of the 635 and get records into the charts. Even the BMRB and Gallup later on used the same method, though they counted actual sales of records, rather than points. Ironically when BMRB started, they made it much easier for the record companies to get records into the charts.
    It would have took many hours of work to add up all the 250 returns of Melody Maker, assuming they got all 250 results in on time. Easy these days with a spread sheet and a computer. But there wasn't even a calculator in 1966! So they probably had to cut the actual shop returns down to three quarters of the number.
    I will say again, the reason the charts look the same is down to the fact the public were buying 40 records a week that were in the charts, plus some new records and the new records placed in by records companies that will start to be bought by Joe Public when they see it in the next chart.
    Of course the most serious problem with any points based chart is that the shops supplying the information were all treated the same. If they gave 50 records as the best sellers. Then they got 50 points each for the number one. Regardless of the turnover and size of the shop.
    What I find even more odd, is that of all the 8,000 plus shops, we just can't get hold of a sales ledger for any of them. That would solve a lot of mysteries. One of them must have recorded it's weekly sales of records?

    Nevertheless it's good that Brian has spent his time correcting the BBC chart. Simply because the BBC at the time couldn't care a monkeys about the charts, well apart from the long haired louts that had recently got jobs there. That's why Top of The Pops was filmed in an old church in Manchester and not at TV centre and they didn't have a radio station to broadcast what was in the charts. They did the chart, because they didn't want to say that one of the papers charts should have it's status elevated to: As Used By The BBC or pay a fee for the use of the chart.

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  • kjell
    replied
    It’s a statistical certainty that if you check 635 stores you get a better estimate than if you check one or two hundred. But when the number gets real big the accuracy gain dwindles while the cost increases. Exact positions in the lower reaches could only be secured by real sales figures and that would obviously cost too much then.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 2nd April 1966 for your perusal.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 2nd 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    2 2 I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 2 2 3 2 2 18165
    5 3 Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks 3= 6 2 5 4 17145
    8 4 Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind 3= 3 6 3 5 16860
    3 5 Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds 3= 5 5 4 3 16780
    4 6 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 6 4 7 6 8 15855
    20 7 Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group 7 7 4 7 10 15735
    14 8 Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican 8 8 10 8 6 14275
    7 9 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 9 10 8 10 9 13920
    16 10 Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Your Heart - The Bachelors* 10 9 9 9 12 13715
    15 11 Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 11 11 11 11 11 12700
    6 12 Sha-La-La-La-Lee - The Small Faces 12 13 12 12 7 12290
    18 13 Substitute - The Who 13 12 15 16 14 10745
    9 14 Backstage - Gene Pitney 14 15 14 13 16 10525
    10 15 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 16 16 13 14 17 10390
    13 16 What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 15 14 17 15 13 10030
    12 17 Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie 17 18 16 18 18 8755
    24 18 Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard 18 19 18 17 19 8070
    11 19 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 19 22 19 20 15 7260
    NEW 20 Someday One Day - The Seekers 20 24 20 24 21 5700
    NEW 21 Alfie - Cilla Black 21 21 21 19 5700
    NEW 22 Bang Bang - Cher 22= 17 25 21 5300
    NEW 23 You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits 22= 23 24 22 25 4760
    17 24 My Love - Petula Clark 25 26 22 28 24 4145
    21 25 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 24 29 23 26 20 3835
    NEW 26 I Put A Spell On You - The Alan Price Set 27 20 27 2600
    27 27 I Met A Girl - The Shadows 26 26 29 22 2215
    NEW 28 You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield 28 25 23 2000
    NEW 29 The Ballad Of The Green Berets - Staff Sgt Barry Sadler 29 29 27 26 1825
    25 30 May Each Day - Andy Williams 30 28 23 1430
    *Split sides on NME but not affecting average chart position
    Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors* 27
    Super Girl - Graham Bonney 28 30 850
    Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel 25 29 770
    Woman - Peter and Gordon 29 30 600
    That's Nice - Neil Christian 29 400
    Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 27 340
    Heartaches - Vince Hill 28 255
    Inside Looking Out - The Animals 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Although I still hold with the BBC chart (in principle although poor in practise) if I had to go with a music paper chart from the time I would go with MM then Disc.

    MM always seemed to hold the middle ground consistently well and used the biggest sample which obviously produced an authoritative chart . NME too far ahead because of advanced orders and RR too slow because of insufficient store sampling.

    But the strange thing is, so did Disc find the middle ground despite also using advance orders. They only used a sample of 100 a mere 15 more than RR yet managed to compile a chart that hit the middle ground between the fast NME and slow RR. I don't get why, but they managed to do this consistently well.

    I hate labouring the point but even in retrospect it is clear that an average chart rectifies the problems. It smoothes out the chart by removing minor inaccuracies and inconsistencies and produces a more balanced chart overall. The more I produce these charts the clearer this becomes to me.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Yes the NME seems to be the other chart with peculiar placings, although not nearly as bad as RR. Sometimes it seems that they have accelerated a record's climb in order to be ahead of the game (even after the advance orders would have had an effect) but on the other hand the large number of tied positions suggests a degree of honesty.

    Disc comes out of it quite well. In the Sun article they were the best performer by far, matching the Top 7 that the Sun analysis had determined by sales and points - suggesting to me at least that their sampling was no less than the others and possibly larger at that time. They seem to be the forgotten chart; understandable because Disc had a lower readership, no newspaper carried their chart and it retired early!
    Last edited by Splodj; Mon August 31, 2020, 08:00.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Whatever the reason RR simply got it wrong and that is where the sensibility of an averaged chart kicks in. Where any one chart makes a major error, and let's face it RR got it wrong more than most, the averaging system ironed this out by the other charts getting it right so the average chart position corrected this.

    So with an averaged chart 19th and Please both get their places at No 1. The more I work with all the individual charts compiling ours the more the evidence piles up to support an averaging system is by far the best as extremes are corrected in any one chart by the others which largely agree. Also RR is by far the worst but NME can be guilty too of being the chart out of step, not by being inaccurate, but their system of accepting advance orders meant records often debuted far higher than the other charts and records often left their chart before the others too, so again averaging out provided a balance to this.

    That said, I am human too and can sometimes despite taking as much care as possible make the occasional error. That's the beauty of posting on here, you guys who look at the charts here with fresh eyes can pick up on the occasional error and point it out so that it can be corrected. Don't get me wrong, most pick ups are spelling or fact errors that don't affect positions and I reckon, thus far, I have made only one bad error where I entered a 20 rather than a 30 for a Tony Bennett record requiring re-calculation.

    So, with all that said, again welcome to The Ultimate Averaged Chart lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I just stumbled across an old email from Dave Taylor, from 12 Nov 2012, where he told me the following:

    Since we last spoke, I've been digging around, with people that have worked in the industry, & one that was involved with Record Retailer.

    The interesting thing I found out about RR is quite easy to believe, & puts it further down the list of correctness.

    Apparently all tied positions in that chart were separated, & I was told that many #1s were in tied positions, but were separated by looking at the previous week's position.

    Nineteenth Nervous Breakdown has been separated in this way & should of been #1. There are other instances in 1962, where Stranger On The Shore was mixed up with Midnight In Moscow, & another where a tie between Stranger On The Shore & The Young Ones were separated.

    There was also a mistake in March 66, where Nancy Sinatra had the Small Faces points award to her by mistake. She should of fallen to #6 & the Small Faces should of gone to #1, but they were mixed up. Both artists beginning with "S" you see!

    Similar story with NME in August 68. Tom Jones was given the points of Tommy James & on the 31st Aug, it prevented the Bee Gees from going to the top. Had this mistake not occurred, the 3 way BBC tie would not of happened. The Bee Gees would of been sole #1, with Herb Alpert & the Beach Boys being joint #2!

    Note that Dave says for ties, RR separated them by looking at "the previous week's position", not "rate of change from the previous week's position". So perhaps the higher record from the prior week got the higher position for the current week? That could explain things, though this does not agree with Alan's research. My brain still hurts, ha...

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    I am perplexed by that story about Breakdown and Boots tying for number one in RR.

    If there was a tie in the first week, Breakdown would go on top under their tiebreak rule because it was the fastest riser - being at a lower position than Boots the previous week. If there was a tie in subsequent weeks, Breakdown would also go on top - because in any tiebreak for the top using the 'greatest improvement' rule the incumbent number one will always lose.

    So I don't see how there could have been a tie without Breakdown becoming number one.
    I noticed the same thing Splodj, and contacted Alan Smith several times about this, and I still don't have a handle on it. Alan mentions in his articles/posts that RR broke the ties with a % rate change of sales (week over week), but was this a % rate change of sales, or a % rate change of chart positions? A rate change of sales would require dealers to keep sales data for 2 weeks before tossing the info, and they only reported chart positions back to RR.

    Alan also told me that RR would break ties by calling a FEW of their largest dealers from their total pool, and getting actual sales of those tied records. So I can't explain how it all works out as of yet, but we have this info from Alan, and we have the info from Dave that Breakdown and Boots tied, and Breakdown lost out due to the tiebreaker.

    Maybe RR was using a 2 layered tiebreaker, (1) rate change of chart positions, and then (2) actual sales of a FEW dealers. That might be it, what Alan was trying to say. But still, I can't come up with a scenario where RR could have kept a tied 19th Nervous Breakdown out of the #1 slot. My brain hurts...
    Last edited by RokinRobinOfLocksley; Sun August 30, 2020, 22:49.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah Robin is a wizard with those stats and I too have to say I find them really useful, relevant and enjoyable.

    I honestly believe kjell we really are seeing the most representative chart of the times. Taking the BBC's principle of an averaged chart being best a step further by factoring in store returns and correcting their errors along the way gives us what should be 'The Official Chart', giving 19th Nervous Breakdown, and in a few months Please Please Me, their rightful chart topping places

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I am perplexed by that story about Breakdown and Boots tying for number one in RR.

    If there was a tie in the first week, Breakdown would go on top under their tiebreak rule because it was the fastest riser - being at a lower position than Boots the previous week. If there was a tie in subsequent weeks, Breakdown would also go on top - because in any tiebreak for the top using the 'greatest improvement' rule the incumbent number one will always lose.

    So I don't see how there could have been a tie without Breakdown becoming number one.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks Robin, I have the same info sent by Dave saved somewhere but didn't have it to hand for the detail when I replied above, but you are spot on, that is exactly what Dave told me also. Also I am pretty sure given the other strange pattern that week that they also mixed up Alpert and Arnold and gave them the opposite chart positions as well.

    I think the only consolation for The Stones is that RR did at least give them No 1's with It's All Over Now and Little Red Rooster whereas The Beatles flew straight to No 1 in all other three charts.

    I'm currently compiling way ahead in August 66 guys to keep you supplied with charts on a daily basis so on that subject :

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 26th March 1966, for your perusal.
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 26th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    2 2 I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 2 2 2 2 2 18415
    8 3 Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds 3 4 3 3 3 17580
    6 4 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 4 3 4 4 10 16835
    10 5 Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks 5 6 5 5 6 16225
    3 6 Sha-La-La-La-Lee - The Small Faces 6 7 6 6 4 15845
    4 7 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 7 5 7 7 5 15810
    16 8 Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind 8 7 9 9 8 14455
    5 9 Backstage - Gene Pitney 9 9 8 8 9 14320
    7 10 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 10 10 10 10 12 13165
    9 11 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 11 13 11 11 7 12640
    11 12 Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie 12 11 12 12 11 12350
    17 13 What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 13 14 13 13 13 11230
    25 14 Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican 14 12 14 14 18 10855
    19 15 Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 15 17 17 15 14 9345
    29 16 Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors* 18 16 15 18 20 9235
    12 17 My Love - Petula Clark 17 19 16 16 16 8925
    18 18 Substitute - The Who 16 17 18 17 15 8810
    13 19 19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones 19 23 19 20 17 6890
    NEW 20 Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group 20 15 23 21 29 6370
    15 21 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 21 25 20 23 19 5770
    22 22 Woman - Peter and Gordon 22 22 21 22 5200
    14 23 Inside Looking Out - The Animals 23 24 22 24 21 5200
    NEW 24 Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard 24 20 29 19 3900
    24 25 May Each Day - Andy Williams 25 27 25 25 22 3665
    21 26 You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters 27 24 25 2260
    NEW 27 I Met A Girl - The Shadows 26 30 27 28 26 1925
    20 28 Blue River - Elvis Presley 28 28 28 29 27 1890
    28 29 You Don't Love Me - Gary Walker 26 1250
    26 30 I Got You (I Feel Good) - James Brown 25 1200
    *Split sides on NME but not affecting average chart position
    Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors* 21
    Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 29 23 680
    Heartaches - Vince Hill 29 28 655
    This Golden Ring - The Fortunes 30 24 595
    Someday One Day - The Seekers 26 500
    Please Stay - The Cryin' Shames 27 400
    You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits 30 250
    Why Don't I Run Away - Kiki Dee 30 100
    Uptight - Stevie Wonder 30 85


    Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun August 30, 2020, 20:38. Reason: .

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  • kjell
    replied
    Got to hand it to you Robin, quite revealing statistics you presented yesterday. Guess it’s time to recognize Brians list of no. 1’s as the real charttoppers of my youth.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    To concur with Bob and Brian above, and to elaborate further, not only did RR mix up Sha-La-La-La-Lee and These Boots Are Made For Walkin', they got them exactly backwards !! Again per Dave Taylor's research in talking with that RR former employee in 2012. For the RR 12 March 1966 chart above, Sha-La at #6 should have been #1, and Boots at #1 should have been #6. Dave says the Sin of Sinatra got mixed up with the Sm of Small. Note the chart movements, and which numbers look out of place:

    Sha-La:
    NME: 4-2-3
    MM .: 4-1-3
    Disc : 4-1-3
    RR . : 5-6-3

    Boots:
    NME: 2-7-9
    MM .: 2-2-4
    Disc : 2-5-7
    RR . : 1-1-9

    A sad thing about this, Small Faces drummer Kenney Jones, in his recent autobiography, even claims Sha-La was only a #3 hit, yet in 1966 he was right there on TOTP playing (or miming) this song as it was introduced as #1 !! (I informed him of the truth on his facebook page, no reply...) #1 on MM, Disc, and the BBC !! And also on RR but for the mix-up, ugh... (personal note: the Small Faces were my first concert, on 4 July 1967, when they visited RAF Wethersfield airbase in Essex, where I was living at the time, fab gear groovy keen!)

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Don't know if yall were paying attention, but we just slipped by what might be the biggest (most infamous) Record Retailer 'problem' of them all. 19th Nervous Breakdown was #1 on NME, MM, and Disc, and the BBC, on all of them for 3 straight weeks, but peaked at only #2 for 3 weeks on RR, behind These Boots Are Made For Walkin'.

    Chart guru Dave Taylor had been in contact in 2012 with a former RR employee, who was giving Dave a lot of inside info, on ties and other stuff, but who unfortunately passed away later in 2012 before Dave could get more info from him, ugh. Dave was told that 19th had actually tied for #1 on RR for at least one week, but the forced tiebreaker gave it to Boots. Don't know who Dave was in contact with, or which week(s) the forced tiebreaker occurred. But RR tiebreakers (per Alan Smith) were based on looking at the previous weeks chart, so that whichever tied record this week had the greater improvement over the prior week was given the higher chart position. That is totally ludicrous and bogus in my book, last week was last week, ties should have been broken only by data from the current week !!

    The other most infamous Record Retailer 'problem' being Please Please Me, relegated to #2. It was #1 for 2 weeks on NME, MM, and Disc, and 3 weeks on the BBC. Dave also said it was a victim of the RR forced tiebreaker rule, that it actually tied at #1 on RR for at least one week.

    Coincidentally, a Pick of the Pops radio show when PPM was #1 was just found and posted on facebook yesterday, here's a link to the Mixcloud site where you can play the last 57 min of that show, from 3-Mar-1963, fab groovy keen !!

    https://www.mixcloud.com/terry-obrie...vUft61YWFNLvu4

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Who would have thought that The Who - Substitute was hyped into the chart!
    It was selling for the last two weeks, but it only went up from 73 to 30 on the 19 March chart. Those highs of 18 can only be explained by chart fiddling.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 19th March 1966, for your perusal.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 19th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    8 1 The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    2 2 I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 2 1 2 2 2 18615
    1 3 Sha-La-La-La-Lee - The Small Faces 3 3 3 3 3 17780
    5 4 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 4 4 7 4 5 16310
    6 5 Backstage - Gene Pitney 5 7 5 5 7 15940
    9 6 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 7 6 6 6 10 15535
    4 7 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 8 9 4 7 9 15420
    13 8 Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds 6 5 8 8 6 15375
    3 9 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 9 8 9 9 4 14595
    15 10 Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks 10 10 10 10 8 13505
    12 11 Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie 11 11 11 13 11 12500
    10 12 My Love - Petula Clark 12 12 12 11 14 11995
    7 13 19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones 13 13 13 12 12 11615
    11 14 Inside Looking Out - The Animals 14 16 14 15 17 10040
    14 15 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 15 17 16 19 13 9280
    NEW 16 Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind 17 14 17 16 21 9250
    19 17 What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 18 20 15 18 15 8860
    23 18 Substitute - The Who 16 15 20 14 18 8755
    22 19 Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 19 22 18 17 23 7130
    18 20 Blue River - Elvis Presley 20 21 19 20 26 6525
    16 21 You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters 21= 24 21 24 20 5535
    27 22 Woman - Peter and Gordon 23 23 22 22 28 5005
    17 23 This Golden Ring - The Fortunes 21= 26 24 23 16 4825
    NEW 24 May Each Day - Andy Williams 24 25 26 26 19 3970
    NEW 25 Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican 27 19 27 27 3800
    29 26 I Got You (I Feel Good) - James Brown 25 18 21 29 3770
    20 27 Uptight - Stevie Wonder 26 23 24 2595
    26 28 You Don't Love Me - Gary Walker 28 29 25 27 2240
    NEW 29 Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors* 28 29 28 1400
    21 30 Tomorrow - Sandie Shaw 29 28 30 25 1360
    * Split Sides On NME but not affecting average chart position
    Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors* 27
    Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 30 22 765
    I Met A Girl - The Shadows 30 30 29 650
    Please Stay - The Cryin' Shames 25 600
    A Man Without Love - Kenneth McKellar 30 85
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun August 30, 2020, 20:21.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Dave Taylor told me RR made a 'mistake' this week and mixed up the returns for Nancy Sinatra and The Small Faces the outcome of which was the above false chart positions for both so yeah it wouldn't at all surprise me if there was a mix up with Herb and Eddy too as their positions are both unexpected in comparison to the trend of the other charts.

    Leave a comment:


  • BobPatience
    replied
    RR keeps on surprising me. The small faces went 4 -> 1 or 2 in all charts except for RR, where they even manage to LOSE a spot. And are we sure RR did not somehow switch the Herb Alpert and Eddy Arnold records? If it wasn't considered 'official' these rankings would be pure comedy gold.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    It is indeed a shame that virtually all publications now say that it only reached number 3 and that 'Boots' had a ridiculously long time at the top.

    Incidentally there are hyphens in the title: 'Sha-La-La-La-Lee'.

    Leave a comment:


  • camdwntownjohn
    replied
    I don't know whether you've already started to highlight this anywhere, but it would be interesting to list for each year, which records should be recognised as chart-toppers, but which in all published lists and articles, are denied that privilege. The above Small Faces track being an example.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I agree wholeheartedly with that Robin. It was the BBC chart I followed too in the sixties via TOTP and POTP.

    At the time of course we didn't recognise the flaws and mistakes , only now with hindsight and inside knowledge into the workings of the charts can we see it. That is why it frustrates me. As I said above its principle was absolutely sound, taking all the charts and averaging them ironed out extremes to deliver a more balanced chart. But it was it's haphazard and casual approach to compilation that was its main weakness.

    That is why I am glad in the majority of positions my Ultimate Average Chart agrees with the BBC, but by factoring in the store return percentages takes it a stage further where inaccuracies, inconsistencies, and ties are ironed out resulting in the chart of charts that I believe truly reflects the times better than any individual chart does. By recalculating all these weekly charts also fixes all the errors the original BBC chart made in all its calculations at the time.

    Thanks for those percentage calculations you added above, they make for interesting reading and highlight interesting differences between the individual charts.

    So, it would appear the Ultimate Averaged Chart is hitting all the right notes (pardon the pun) and delivering the goods for you all.

    So, on ward and upward Pop Pickers, here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 12th March 1966, for your enjoyment.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 12th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    4 1 Sha La La La Lee - The Small Faces 1 2 1 1 6 18425
    10 2 I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 3 1 3 3 7 17840
    3 3 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 2 3 4 2 2 17715
    2 4 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 4 7 2 5 1 17200
    6 5 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 5 4 7 4 3 16480
    7 6 Backstage - Gene Pitney 6 6 6 6 4 16045
    1 7 19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones 7 8 5 7 8 15455
    18 8 The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers 8 5 9 8 10 14785
    9 9 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 10 9 8 9 16 13625
    5 10 My Love - Petula Clark 9 10 10 10 9 13420
    8 11 Inside Looking Out - The Animals 11 13 11 12 12 12115
    14 12 Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie 12 12 12 13 14 11795
    24 13 Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds 13 11 13 11 17 11690
    12 14 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 14 16 15 17 5 10610
    NEW 15 Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks 15 14 14 14 20 10285
    11 16 You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters 16 15 19 15 13 9330
    20 17 This Golden Ring - The Fortunes 17 17 17 18 15 8960
    21 18 Blue River - Elvis Presley 18 19 16 16 22 8415
    19 19 What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 19 17 20 20 19 7670
    15 20 Uptight - Stevie Wonder 20 21 18 19 18 7555
    13 21 Tomorrow - Sandie Shaw 21 24 22 22 11 6250
    NEW 22 Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 23 22 21 23 5100
    NEW 23 Substitute - The Who 24 19 24 24 4850
    16 24 Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours 22 23 25 25 23 4380
    17 25 Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black 26= 30 26 28 24 2345
    NEW 26 You Don't Love Me - Gary Walker 25 25 30 27 26 2275
    NEW 27 Woman - Peter and Gordon 29= 23 29 2170
    22 28 Little By Little - Dusty Springfield 28 29 27 26 28 2155
    NEW 29 I Got You (I Feel Good) - James Brown 26= 26 21 2000
    NEW 30 Baby Never Say Goodbye - Unit 4 + 2 28 28 1350
    Jenny Take A Ride - Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels 27 29 1000
    Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 29= 21 850
    May Each Day - Andy Williams 29 30 600
    Girl - St Louis Union 25 510
    Get Out Of My Life Woman - Lee Dorsey 27 340
    You've Come Back - P J Proby 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Brian, even though the BBC chart wasn't perfect, even with its flaws and mistakes, one could argue it still appears to have been the most representative chart of the 60s, prior to your new Ultimate Chart. I wouldn't be too harsh on it, especially compared to the other charts, ha.

    But let's look at the numbers, per your 5 March 1966 chart above. Comparing the chart position differences against your Ultimate Chart positions:

    --the BBC is only off by a total of 5 chart position points
    --NME is off by 71
    --MM by 43
    --Disc by 45
    --RR by 99

    Comparing the BBC against the other charts:

    --NME is off by 73 chart position points
    --MM by 44
    --Disc by 46
    --RR by 94

    In light of this, I'd say the BBC chart is very, very good, not perfect, and not as good as your Ultimate Chart. I am glad to see this, as I had considered the BBC chart to have been my personal chart all these years, ha. Actually, the only one I knew of in the 60s.

    Into the percentages. For this week, the BBC gave 25% equal weighting to each NME, MM, Disc, RR. The Ultimate Chart gives them:
    --NME 31.50%
    --MM 39.37%
    --Disc 15.75%
    --RR 13.39%

    So even with those weighting differences (NME 6.50%, MM 14.37%, Disc 9.25%, RR 11.61%) the BBC chart is still very, very close to the Ultimate Chart positions.

    Which also goes to show that while the best results would be obtained for the Ultimate Chart with exact numbers of record dealers each week, highly approximate numbers (per Alan Smith) can be most meaningful, and might not make any difference.

    Keep on rockin' !!
    Last edited by RokinRobinOfLocksley; Sat August 29, 2020, 13:47.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I fully agree with lots of what you say there Splodj . I concur with your point on the store samples, they could have been the same as the ones I use based on Alan Smith's investigations and he certainly put a lot of investigative work into obtaining these figures, or they could have indeed been larger or smaller BUT I believe the proportions between each are accurate enough irregardless so yes the proportionate outcome would remain the same as to what I compile in the Ultimate Averaged Chart.

    We both share the same view on the BBC chart, the principle was sound but the methodology was awful, inconsistent, and ill thought through. I can't believe the BBC thought this shabbily compiled chart represented a true average and presented it on TOTP, and POTP.

    I do believe though that at the time the proportions of store submits to the music papers could have been easily and accurately ascertained ( information truly lost in the mists of time now ) and contributed to the compilation along the same lines as I am doing to give a much more robust and representative chart for the BBC to use.

    I'm glad too Splodj that you continue to enjoy seeing the chart compiled the way the BBC should have done


    So on that subject, Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 5th March 1966, for your enjoyment.
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 5th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones 1 1 1 1 2 18965
    2 2 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 2 2 2 2 1 18500
    3 3 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 3 3 3 3 3 17780
    6 4 Sha La La La Lee - The Small Faces 4 4 4 4 5 17060
    4 5 My Love - Petula Clark 5 6 5 6 4 16295
    8 6 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 6 5 6 5 6 16175
    15 7 Backstage - Gene Pitney 7 8 7 7 7 15040
    10 8 Inside Looking Out - The Animals 8 7 8 8 12 14465
    19 9 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 9 11 9 10 10 13385
    NEW 10 I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 11 10 10 9 18 12755
    5 11 You Were On My Mind - Chrispian St Peters 10 12 11 11 9 12670
    7 12 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 12 13 12 15 8 11905
    11 13 Tomorrow - Sandie Shaw 13 19 13 13 11 10400
    24 14 Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie 14 9 20 12 16 10325
    14 15 Uptight - Stevie Wonder 15 18 14 14 14 9995
    13 16 Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours 17 17 16 19 17 8940
    9 17 Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black 16 21 15 17 13 8930
    NEW 18 The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers 18 16 18 18 26 7975
    28 19 What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 19 14 23 23 22 6965
    23 20 This Golden Ring - The Fortunes 20 15 22 16 6950
    30 21 Blue River - Elvis Presley 21 22 21 22 23 5880
    16 22 Little By Little - Dusty Springfield 22 25 19 24 20 5835
    12 23 Michelle - The Overlanders 23 28 17 26 19 5620
    NEW 24 Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds 24 19 29 21 28 4155
    27 25 Jenny Take A Ride - Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels 25= 22 28 20 3650
    22 26 Get Out Of My Life Woman - Lee Dorsey 25= 27 25 25 24 3495
    20 27 Girl - The St Louis Union 27 26 15 2610
    17 28 Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 28 24 21 2600
    18 29 Girl - The Truth 29 24 30 29 1670
    21 30 You've Come Back - P J Proby 30 27 25 1510
    Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks 25 29 1400
    You Don't Love Me - Gary Walker 29 28 30 785
    I Got You (I Feel Good) - James Brown 30 27 600
    Like A Baby - Len Barry 27 340
    Woman - Peter and Gordon 30 250
    Baby Never Say Goodbye - Unit 4 + 2 30 200
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Fri August 28, 2020, 15:42.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    I tend to agree with Graham (post 341) that the actual samples used by the chart companies were a lot less than they declared at the time, or claimed later to Alan Smith. This does not necessarily invalidate the methodology used in the Ultimate charts as the relative ratios may still be roughly correct.

    However if weighting had been applied, either at the time or retrospectively, it would have led to endless arguments about how valid or accurate it was. The BBC in particular could not antagonise their contributors.

    I think that it is a pity the BBC did not:

    (a) take more care with the accuracy of their calculations;
    (b) adopt a consistent tiebreaker policy (survey size would play a part here, but in a less controversial way than weighting);
    (c) apply the same maverick avoidance policy to Double 'A' Sides as they did to EPs;
    (d) ignore positions in one contributory chart that were 4 or more places adrift from the others. (Effectively this would replace their odd-one-out 'number one' policy by extending it to the whole chart.)

    Had they done these things they would have provided a ready-made chart that I could have accepted as 'official'.

    Please Brian do not interpret this as criticism of your excellent work on the Ultimate Charts - it is certainly not intended to be.
    Last edited by Splodj; Fri August 28, 2020, 11:54.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Guys lots of interesting comments there. I'm just in from work and belatedly catching up with your valid points. RR I honestly believe is the proverbial fly in the ointment. Their chart actually detracts rather than adds to the value of an averaged chart. Week on week it is out of step and the chart of February 19th is the best example yet.
    I'm with you guys in that I can't fathom why it was selected retrospectively as 'official'. Surely more was considered than the chart which had most positions.
    For me, and this is purely a personal view, one of two options should have been adopted. Either use the MM chart which had the biggest sample and was already the chart published in the biggest selling daily newspapers giving it huge exposure consistently. It also sampled Northern Ireland, no other did. Or secondly do what I am doing, compile an average chart and factor in stores thus getting a store sample in total of over 600. This solution would then not have disadvantaged any individual chart so no losing face.
    So the system I am using ( which is the same as I promoted above) is perhaps the best overall.

    I don't take full credit for this as most of you also provided input, suggestions, improvements which I took on board in order to provide us with the best chart possible. Thanks again to you all for your continuing feedback and support you provide to me and please continue to follow and enjoy 'our chart'.

    Meantime :

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 26th February 1966.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 26th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones 1 1 1 1 2 18965
    2 2 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 2 2 2 2 1 18500
    4 3 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 3 3 4 3 3 17530
    8 4 My Love - Petula Clark 4 4 3 4 5 17310
    3 5 You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters 5 5 5 5 4 16595
    13 6 Sha La La La Lee - The Small Faces 6 6 7 6 7 15540
    7 7 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 8 10 6 14 6 14275
    19 8 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 7 8 11 7 8 13955
    6 9 Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black 9 9 10 9 10 13635
    17 10 Inside Looking Out - The Animals 10 6 12 8 13 13580
    10 11 Tomorrow - Sandie Shaw 11 14 9 12 9 12670
    5 12 Michelle - The Overlanders 12 15 8 11 11 12650
    9 13 Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours 13 12 13 10 12 12015
    18 14 Uptight - Stevie Wonder 15 13 15 13 18 10505
    30 15 Backstage - Gene Pitney 14 11 17 15 15 10460
    12 16 Little By Little - Dusty Springfield 16 19 14 16 17 9340
    11 17 Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 17 20 16 17 14 8795
    20 18 Girl - The Truth 19 16 18 18 27 7890
    23 19 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 18 18 20 19 21 7400
    16 20 Girl - The St Louis Union 20 19 21 16 5275
    28 21 You've Come Back - P J Proby 25 22 23 22 25 5210
    26 22 Get Out Of My Life Woman - Lee Dorsey 21 22 25 24 22 4765
    29 23 This Golden Ring - The Fortunes 22 20 24 23 4750
    NEW 24 Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie 23 17 20 3900
    15 25 Like A Baby - Len Barry 21 29 19 3720
    14 26 Keep On Running - The Spencer Davis Group 23 22 26 20 3685
    NEW 27 Jenny Take A Ride - Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels 27 24 30 25 2250
    NEW 28 What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 29 26 27 30 30 2185
    22 29 Have Pity On The Boy - Paul and Barry Ryan 26 26 28 24 2145
    NEW 30 Blue River - Elvis Presley 28 25 29 27 2100
    My Girl - Otis Redding 30 28 23 1430
    You Don't Love Me - Gary Walker 27 800
    I Got You (I Feel Good) - James Brown 28 600
    A Must To Avoid - Herman's Hermits 26 425
    I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 29 400
    Breaking Up Is Breaking My Heart - Roy Orbison 28 255
    634-5789 - Wilson Pickett 30 200
    Tchaikovsky One - The Second City Sound 29 170

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