The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Graham76man]

Nevertheless NME did expand the chart pass 30. As it featured in the early Number One Magazines.

[Graham76man]

But why is it important to have a Top 50, rather than a Top 30, for the 50s and 60s?

I realise there were a lot of good records that peaked in the 31-50 range from the mid-60s on, but before then there were a lot of forgettable entries which I wouldn't consider worthy 'hits' using the sales or quality (admittedly subjective) criteria.

More to the point, the lower end of RRs chart was so unreliable that it was almost a lottery what made it into that range and what was left out.

The answer to that question is simple. When the first Guinness Book was done the chart had been a top 50 for ages. So to cut down the chart to a 30 would have looked odd and created problems with things like chart facts. These were important, as the books were published by Guinness, who did the Guinness Book of Records, so popular that they made a TV show about it. So things like weeks on charts and who spent only one week at 50 and nothing else, fitted in with the Guinness range of fact based books. Several books had been out before using either a top 20 or top 30. But there was public demand for the compilers to get the fullest charts and to record all the information from the full top 50 charts. The compilers of the first book make it clear that only the RR chart was a full top 50. And when the first book came out the 70's were not complete and the 60's top 50's would have added a great deal of facts and data to add to the first book.

[camdwntownjohn]

In 1978, the NME stated that they had never increased their chart above a Top 30 because it would be too easy to chart-hype, i.e. record companies buying records from chart-return shops. One difference with the NME chart, certainly in the mid-70s, was that they didn't use actual sales figures, but phoned each shop and asked them to give their own ranked best-sellers list, from which the paper compiled a chart on a points basis. This was revealed by the NME editor in a BBC Radio London phone-in with Charlie Gillett around 1975 or 1976.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Another solution would be to use the chart with the most store samples for the top positions, then add extra records from the next most sampled chart, then the next, then the next. For the 60s, the MM Top 50 would be used for what, 5+ years? Then as a Top 30 when it shrank. Then append to that the extra records from NME, then Disc, and lastly RR. Thus you have the most accurate charts at the top, and you have the most records. It's too logical...

Or you can do the Brian method for the Top 50+...

[Splodj]

But why is it important to have a Top 50, rather than a Top 30, for the 50s and 60s?

I realise there were a lot of good records that peaked in the 31-50 range from the mid-60s on, but before then there were a lot of forgettable entries which I wouldn't consider worthy 'hits' using the sales or quality (admittedly subjective) criteria.

More to the point, the lower end of RRs chart was so unreliable that it was almost a lottery what made it into that range and what was left out.

[Graham76man]

However whilst doing the Real Charts for 1967 Record Retailer's positions improve. The odd one out is Melody Maker's chart, very slow compared to NME and RR and to me less on the ball then it was in 1965 and 1966.
I think however that if Melody Maker hadn't reduced it's chart to just a 30 in 1967 then it might have got Official status. I think the original compilers of the Guinness Book would have gone with that chart, knowing how bad RR was and how it was not really the chart of the 60's. But the fact it was chopped down at times meant there would have been far less hits in the chart book. They could have used all the charts, but the book would have been much bigger and probably very confusing to readers. They only way would be to colour code it, or split the results into several sections for each of the charts. The colour coding would have made the book more expensive though, the sections would have caused disputes with chart fans, plus after 1969 would all the other charts stop being used?
In the end I think what decided the outcome was that RR was a top 50 and more importantly became the same paper that carried the new BMRB chart.
What would have been more interesting to have seen is the NME going to a top 50 in 1960. That would have caused a big dilemma in 1969, wouldn't it, with the compilers of the first Guinness book!

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Brian, as the weeks go by, you're piling up more and more evidence that RR has no business being the OCC 'official' chart of the 60s. And there's much more evidence to come. Rock on !!!

Edit: and RR is odd man out on the above chart for 21 of the 30 positions, crazy...

[Graham76man]

Just checked the Real Chart for the above week and those RR records in the top 30 and not in other charts, are not even top 40 on the Real Chart. The best is 45 for Bob Dylan. The Kinks was at 82!

Missing from the top 30 however are The Walker Brothers - Sun Aint... (18) Al Martino - Spanish Eyes (16) Miracles - Going To A Go-Go (27) And Andy Williams - May Each Day (25)

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

This is the chart I mentioned a short time back. Look at RR, as well as denying The Rolling Stones the No 1 slot, their chart has 9 records in the top thirty that don't appear in any other of the three charts !!!

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 19th February 1966.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 19th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
4	1	19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones					1	1	1	1	2	18965
1	2	These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra					2	2	2	2	1	18500
2	3	You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters					3	3	4	3	3	17530
6	4	A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders					4	4	3	4	6	17225
3	5	Michelle - The Overlanders					5	7	5	5	5	16110
5	6	Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black					6	6	6	6	7	15790
7	7	Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert					7	9	7	9	4	14895
19	8	My Love - Petula Clark					8	5	8	7	15	14710
9	9	Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours					9	8	9	8	10	14185
11	10	Tomorrow - Sandie Shaw					10	10	10	10	9	13420
13	11	Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand					11	14	13	14	14	11045
15	12	Little By Little - Dusty Springfield					13=	17	11	12	17	10890
25	13	Sha La La La Lee - The Small Faces					13=	12	16	11	18	10655
8	14	Keep On Running - The Spencer Davis Group					12	16	15	16	8	10455
10	15	Like A Baby - Len Barry					15	22	12	17	13	9480
16	16	Girl - The St Louis Union					16	20	14	19	12	9265
NEW	17	Inside Looking Out - The Animals					18	11	17	15		9100
22	18	Uptight - Stevie Wonder					17	13	18	13	26	9075
NEW	19	Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys					19	15	21	18		7000
21	20	Girl - The Truth					20	18	19	21		6600
24	21	Think - Chris Farlowe					23	19	22	25		5250
18	22	Have Pity On The Boy - Paul and Barry Ryan					21	30	20	20	19	5070
NEW	23	Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold					25	24	23	22		4300
12	24	A Must To Avoid - Herman's Hermits					22	30	24		11	3650
14	25	My Girl - Otis Redding					24	28	25	29	16	3575
28	26	Get Out Of My Life Woman - Lee Dorsey					26	23	27	23	29	3570
29	27	The Hard Way - The Nashville Teens					29	24	26	27		3050
NEW	28	You've Come Back - P J Proby					27	21	30	24		2950
NEW	29	This Golden Ring - The Fortunes					28	24	29	26		2400
NEW	30	Backstage - Gene Pitney						27		28		1100
		Don't Make Me Over - The Swinging Blue Jeans						30	28	30		1050
		Michelle - David and Jonathan					30				20	935
		Let's Hang On - The Four Seasons									21	850
		Breaking Up Is Breaking My Heart - Roy Orbison									22	765
		Take Me To Your Heart Again - Vince Hill									23	680
		Tchaikovsky One - The Second City Sound									24	595
		Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window - Bob Dylan									25	510
		Jenny Take A Ride - Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels						29				400
		Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out - The Beatles									27	340
		Till The End Of The Day - The Kinks									28	255
		Wind Me Up - Cliff Richard									30	85

[MrTibbs]

Thanks for the like Robbie. Appreciated.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 12th February 1966.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 12th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
7	1	These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra					1	1	1	1	4	18795
5	2	You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters					2	3	2	2	2	18215
1	3	Michelle - The Overlanders					3	4	3	3	1	17750
NEW	4	19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones					6	2	4	4	14	16695
2	5	Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black					4	5	5	5	5	16510
8	6	A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders					7	6	6	7	7	15690
4	7	Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert					5	7	7	6	3	15680
3	8	Keep On Running - The Spencer Davis Group					8	8	8	8	6	14775
15	9	Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours					9	10	11	10	9	13170
11	10	Like A Baby - Len Barry					10	17	9	9	10	12285
21	11	Tomorrow - Sandie Shaw					12	11	10	12	19	12170
6	12	A Must To Avoid - Herman's Hermits					11	13	13	11	8	12055
19	13	Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand					14	9	14	14	26	10775
12	14	My Girl - Otis Redding					13	14	16	16	12	10265
24	15	Little By Little - Dusty Springfield					15	16	12	18	21	9900
20	16	Girl - The St Louis Union					17	19	15	25	11	8700
9	17	Let's Hang On - The Four Seasons					16	18	19	19	15	8160
26	18	Have Pity On The Boy - Paul and Barry Ryan					18	22	17	17	18	7805
NEW	19	My Love - Petula Clark					20	12	25	15		6900
10	20	Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out - The Beatles					19	27	18	21	13	6580
27	21	Girl - The Truth					23	22	20	22		5450
NEW	22	Uptight - Stevie Wonder					21	15		13		5000
14	23	Michelle - David and Jonathan					22	28	22	27	16	4525
30	24	Think - Chris Farlowe					24=	21	24	24		4450
NEW	25	Sha La La La Lee - The Small Faces					24=	20	30	20	30	3635
18	26	The River - Ken Dodd					27		21	26	24	3595
16	27	England Swings - Roger Miller					26		23	28	23	2980
NEW	28	Get Out Of My Life Woman - Lee Dorsey					28	24		23		2200
NEW	29	The Hard Way - The Nashville Teens						25	29	29		1900
28	30	Tchaikovsky One - The Second City Sound					30		27		22	1765
		Bye Bye Blues - Bert Kaempfert							28		25	1260
		Don't Make Me Over - The Swinging Blue Jeans							26			1250
		My Ship Is Coming In - The Walker Brothers					29				17	1190
		Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold						26		30		1100
		Can you Please Crawl Out Your Window - Bob Dylan						28			27	940
		Till The End Of The Day - The Kinks									20	935
		Wind Me Up - Cliff Richard									28	255
		Take Me To Your Heart Again - Vince Hill						30				200
		The Carnival Is Over - The Seekers									29	170

[MrTibbs]

Thanks a lot for those words of support and encouragement kjell. Feedback such as yours motivates me and reminds me that lots of guys are still enjoying this site.

[kjell]

Hi Brian!
You’re really disclosing the inaccuracies of the charts of the 60ies. I did expect differences caused by the use of rankings instead of sales figures, but not that they were that big in the upper 30ies with the higher sales of the second half of the 60ies. This also shows the problems that arise from Driscolls try to make his breakers bubblers for all charts and not for RM alone. With such big differences and the fever positions of the fifties one really need multiple charts to get a broad enough view of the music market of that era. Keep up the good work, this project deserves a bigger audience.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 5th February 1966.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 5th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Michelle - The Overlanders					1	1	1	1	1	19050
6	2	Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black					2=	3	2	2	5	17960
2	3	Keep On Running - The Spencer Davis Group					2=	2	5	3	2	17565
3	4	Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert					4	4	3	4	3	17480
10	5	You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters					5	6	4	5	4	16645
5	6	A Must To Avoid - Herman's Hermits					6	8	7	7	6	15125
21	7	These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra					7	5	6	6	18	15055
17	8	A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders					9	11	8	9	14	13395
7	9	Let's Hang On - The Four Seasons					10	10	12	12	8	12805
4	10	Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out - The Beatles					8	17	9	8	7	12640
16	11	Like A Baby - Len Barry					12	12	10	10	16	12425
13	12	My Girl - Otis Redding					11	7	14	13	13	12380
9	13	My Ship Is Coming In - The Walker Brothers					14	15	15	16	9	10570
12	14	Michelle - David and Jonathan					13	16	16	11	11	10450
18	15	Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours					17	13	18	17	21	9100
15	16	England Swings - Roger Miller					18	24	13	15	17	8690
11	17	Til The End Of The Day - The Kinks					15	18	19	19	10	8585
8	18	The River - Ken Dodd					16		11	14	12	8315
26	19	Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand					20	9	22	20	29	7920
22	20	Girl - The St Louis Union					19	21	17	22	19	7420
NEW	21	Tomorrow - Sandie Shaw					22	14	23	18		6700
14	22	The Carnival Is Over - The Seekers					21	25	20	21	15	6310
27	23	Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window - Bob Dylan					23	19	26	24	23	5030
NEW	24	Little By Little - Dusty Springfield					25	20	24	23		4750
23	25	Bye Bye Blues - Bert Kaempfert					24	27	21	25	24	4495
NEW	26	Have Pity On The Boy - Paul and Barry Ryan					26	22	25	28		3600
NEW	27	Girl - The Truth					28	23	27			2600
NEW	28	Tchaikovsky One - The Second City Sound					29		28	27	27	1490
20	29	Wind Me Up - Cliff Richard					27		30	30	20	1285
NEW	30	Think - Chris Farlowe						26				1000
		A Hard Day's Night - Peter Sellers									22	765
		Don't Make Me Over - The Swinging Blue Jeans							29	29		700
		Take Me To Your Heart Again - Vince Hill						30			26	625
		Cryin' Time - Ray Charles						28				600
		Uptight - Stevie Wonder						28				600
		Tears - Ken Dodd					30				25	510
		Breaking Up Is Breaking My Heart - Roy Orbison								26		500
		Take Me For What I'm Worth - The Searchers									28	255
		Get Out Of My Life Woman - Lee Dorsey						30				200
		The Very Thought Of You - Tony Bennett									30	85

[MrTibbs]

Hi all..I have amended the chart for 29th January due to the erroneously typed in chart position, see above.

[Graham76man]

The reason why the charts are accurate or appear to be, is due to the fact that they all had top 50's or near to it. And all of these charts were on display in either music papers or the shops themselves. Indeed many shops laid out stock in the top 50 or whatever. Unfortunately the public are not very original in what they choose. So buy what was in the top charts. Hence the surveys will look the same. The difference is in new entry records mostly. There they tend to be all over the place. Add what was going on TV each week and you can get a reasonable chart as does RR from up to 100 shops.

The main difference on what was actually selling, would be things like distribution or records. The weather. In the UK one part of the country can have a fine day and in a larger part chucking it down. People stay at home if it's raining and go shopping when it's fine.
Record Shops have to buy records in and then sell them on to us. They like to buy well known acts that will sell. They also get told what will sell by record company reps. The reps are not always right. So the shops get stuck with stock that won't sell. These all effect any charts.
All the shops that took part in these surveys were known to the record companies. So would have been well supplied mostly. They were all targeted by the record companies to put records in the charts.

Lastly the BBC restricted the chart size due to the known fiddling of the charts. By the top 20, records would have been selling in large numbers by the public. There was also a lot of pressure on the BBC not to become a top 40 USA style station. There was a lot of resistance on being to Yank.
One of the DJ's on Radio One was that "Americanised" that when the news came on the newscaster came on and said "here is the news - in ENGLISH".

[MrTibbs]

Hmmmmm. I'll fix that tonight when I get in from work guys. Thanks.

[Woz1234]

The Jan. 29th, 1966 chart's 'Disc' column has two records at 20, but none at 30.

The Very Thought Of You by Tony Bennett should be at 30.

[BobPatience]

The Jan. 29th, 1966 chart's 'Disc' column has two records at 20, but none at 30.

[MrTibbs]

Hi camdwntownjohn. Between them, NME, MM, RR, Disc, there were over 600 shops surveyed. That is why I included all their shop surveys in my Ultimate Averaged Chart calculations. The sum of them all gives a much more representative chart than any individual one can offer.
In the seventies BMRB never came anywhere close to this number of store returns by way of their diaries. Many were never received by the cut off date and others were flawed so couldn't be used. In fact BMRB never got anywhere near the 300 you mention.
I believe The BBC compiled a Top 30 from October 1962 but continued to use only the Top Twenty for Pick Of The Pops and Top Of The Pops until September 1967, but then afterwards for some strange reason fell back to using the Top Twenty again.
I got my copies of the BBC charts way back from a user of the site who is no longer around. He had inside contacts at the BBC.
If you are interested message me and I will email them to you.

[camdwntownjohn]

The comparison between these charts is interesting. Apart from the occasional outlier, the similarity between the charts does suggest that they were fairly accurate. In fact it seems more shops in total were being surveyed in the 60s than in the 70s, when BMRB were using, I think, 300 while Melody Maker and NME had reduced their surveys to about 50 (and Disc used the MM chart). MM then used to report a lot of tied positions.

I'm surprised to see that the BBC compiled a Top 30, as Top of the Pops and Pick of the Pops only used the Top 20. Radio One when it started used to just talk about the Top 20, and only changed to Top 30 in 1973. Out of interest, where were these 60s BBC charts obtained from? I only ever heard them used in the 'Double Top Ten Show' / 'Old Record Club' programmes in the 70s.

[MrTibbs]

You are spot on Robbie, and Girl by The Truth is just about to enter as well. Yeah sometimes the difference really stands out between RR and the other three charts and that is a prime example.

[Robbie]

The B side of 'Love's Just A Broken Heart' by Cilla Black was a cover of The Beatles 'Yesterday' which means The Beatles were involved, one way or another, with numbers 1, 4, 6, 12, 22 and 29 (have I missed any?). Strangely on Record Retailer Cilla's single is lagging well behind how it is performing on the other charts. Even allowing for the fact that RR sometimes lagged behind the others, in this instance it is well out of step.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 29th January 1966.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 29th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
4	1	Michelle - The Overlanders					1	2	1	1	1	18850
1	2	Keep On Running - The Spencer Davis Group					2	1	2	2	2	18615
3	3	Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert					3	3	3	3	3	17780
2	4	Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out - The Beatles					4	5	4	5	4	16845
6	5	A Must To Avoid - Herman's Hermits					5	7	5	4	6	16125
19	6	Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black					6	4	6	6	15	15510
8	7	Let's Hang On - The Four Seasons					7	6	8	12	5	14860
7	8	The River - Ken Dodd					10	13	7	10	9	13570
5	9	My Ship Is Coming In - The Walker Brothers					8	12	9	9	7	13540
20	10	You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters					9	10	10	8	10	13535
10	11	Till The End Of The Day - The Kinks					11	10	11	11	8	13155
16	12	Michelle - David and Jonathan					12	9	13	7	12	12915
11	13	My Girl - Otis Redding					13	8	14	13	11	12350
9	14	The Carnival Is Over - The Seekers					14	14	12	14	14	11295
15	15	England Swings - Roger Miller					15	18	15	15	13	9730
23	16	Like A Baby - Len Barry					17	17	16	20	21	8500
29	17	A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders					16	19	18	16	18	8255
26	18	Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours					19	19	19	19	28	6855
13	19	Tears - Ken Dodd					21	21	17		19	6520
12	20	Wind Me Up - Cliff Richard					18	23	20	23	16	6425
NEW	21	These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra					20	16	23	18		6300
NEW	22	Girl - St Louis Union					22	25	24	17	24	4945
24	23	Bye Bye Blues - Bert Kaempfert					24	26	21	25	25	4610
27	24	Take Me To Your Heart Again - Vince Hill					23	22	26	26	22	4315
14	25	Rescue me - Fontella Bass					26	28	22	22	29	3920
30	26	Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand					27	15		24		3900
NEW	27	Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window - Bob Dylan					25	30		21	17	2390
28	28	The Very Thought Of You - Tony Bennett					29		25	30	23	2280
18	29	A Hard Day;s Night - Peter Sellers					28		27	28	20	2235
RE	30	You Make It Move - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					30	24			26	1825
		Midnight To Six Man - The Pretty Things						26				1000
		To Whom It Concerns - Chris Andrews							28			750
		Thunderball - Tom Jones							29			500
		Recovery - Fontella Bass						29				400
		Breaking Up Is Breaking My Heart - Roy Orbison								27		400
		Take Me For What I'm Worth - The Searchers									27	340
		Tchaikovsky One - The Second City Sound							30			250
		Cryin' Time - Ray Charles						30				200
		Don't Make Me Over - The Swinging Blue Jeans								29		200
		1 2 3 - Len Barry									30	85

[MrTibbs]

Thanks Robbie. Yeah those posts you mention do clarify what I posted above, and yeah Dave's info was usually spot on but he must have missed that one.