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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Graham76man
    commented on 's reply
    Nevertheless NME did expand the chart pass 30. As it featured in the early Number One Magazines.

  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    But why is it important to have a Top 50, rather than a Top 30, for the 50s and 60s?

    I realise there were a lot of good records that peaked in the 31-50 range from the mid-60s on, but before then there were a lot of forgettable entries which I wouldn't consider worthy 'hits' using the sales or quality (admittedly subjective) criteria.

    More to the point, the lower end of RRs chart was so unreliable that it was almost a lottery what made it into that range and what was left out.



    The answer to that question is simple. When the first Guinness Book was done the chart had been a top 50 for ages. So to cut down the chart to a 30 would have looked odd and created problems with things like chart facts. These were important, as the books were published by Guinness, who did the Guinness Book of Records, so popular that they made a TV show about it. So things like weeks on charts and who spent only one week at 50 and nothing else, fitted in with the Guinness range of fact based books. Several books had been out before using either a top 20 or top 30. But there was public demand for the compilers to get the fullest charts and to record all the information from the full top 50 charts. The compilers of the first book make it clear that only the RR chart was a full top 50. And when the first book came out the 70's were not complete and the 60's top 50's would have added a great deal of facts and data to add to the first book.

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  • camdwntownjohn
    replied
    In 1978, the NME stated that they had never increased their chart above a Top 30 because it would be too easy to chart-hype, i.e. record companies buying records from chart-return shops. One difference with the NME chart, certainly in the mid-70s, was that they didn't use actual sales figures, but phoned each shop and asked them to give their own ranked best-sellers list, from which the paper compiled a chart on a points basis. This was revealed by the NME editor in a BBC Radio London phone-in with Charlie Gillett around 1975 or 1976.

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Another solution would be to use the chart with the most store samples for the top positions, then add extra records from the next most sampled chart, then the next, then the next. For the 60s, the MM Top 50 would be used for what, 5+ years? Then as a Top 30 when it shrank. Then append to that the extra records from NME, then Disc, and lastly RR. Thus you have the most accurate charts at the top, and you have the most records. It's too logical...

    Or you can do the Brian method for the Top 50+...

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  • Splodj
    replied
    But why is it important to have a Top 50, rather than a Top 30, for the 50s and 60s?

    I realise there were a lot of good records that peaked in the 31-50 range from the mid-60s on, but before then there were a lot of forgettable entries which I wouldn't consider worthy 'hits' using the sales or quality (admittedly subjective) criteria.

    More to the point, the lower end of RRs chart was so unreliable that it was almost a lottery what made it into that range and what was left out.




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  • Graham76man
    replied
    However whilst doing the Real Charts for 1967 Record Retailer's positions improve. The odd one out is Melody Maker's chart, very slow compared to NME and RR and to me less on the ball then it was in 1965 and 1966.
    I think however that if Melody Maker hadn't reduced it's chart to just a 30 in 1967 then it might have got Official status. I think the original compilers of the Guinness Book would have gone with that chart, knowing how bad RR was and how it was not really the chart of the 60's. But the fact it was chopped down at times meant there would have been far less hits in the chart book. They could have used all the charts, but the book would have been much bigger and probably very confusing to readers. They only way would be to colour code it, or split the results into several sections for each of the charts. The colour coding would have made the book more expensive though, the sections would have caused disputes with chart fans, plus after 1969 would all the other charts stop being used?
    In the end I think what decided the outcome was that RR was a top 50 and more importantly became the same paper that carried the new BMRB chart.
    What would have been more interesting to have seen is the NME going to a top 50 in 1960. That would have caused a big dilemma in 1969, wouldn't it, with the compilers of the first Guinness book!

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  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Brian, as the weeks go by, you're piling up more and more evidence that RR has no business being the OCC 'official' chart of the 60s. And there's much more evidence to come. Rock on !!!

    Edit: and RR is odd man out on the above chart for 21 of the 30 positions, crazy...
    Last edited by RokinRobinOfLocksley; Thu August 27, 2020, 01:07.

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    Just checked the Real Chart for the above week and those RR records in the top 30 and not in other charts, are not even top 40 on the Real Chart. The best is 45 for Bob Dylan. The Kinks was at 82!

    Missing from the top 30 however are The Walker Brothers - Sun Aint... (18) Al Martino - Spanish Eyes (16) Miracles - Going To A Go-Go (27) And Andy Williams - May Each Day (25)

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    This is the chart I mentioned a short time back. Look at RR, as well as denying The Rolling Stones the No 1 slot, their chart has 9 records in the top thirty that don't appear in any other of the three charts !!!

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 19th February 1966.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 19th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    4 1 19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones 1 1 1 1 2 18965
    1 2 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 2 2 2 2 1 18500
    2 3 You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters 3 3 4 3 3 17530
    6 4 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 4 4 3 4 6 17225
    3 5 Michelle - The Overlanders 5 7 5 5 5 16110
    5 6 Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black 6 6 6 6 7 15790
    7 7 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 7 9 7 9 4 14895
    19 8 My Love - Petula Clark 8 5 8 7 15 14710
    9 9 Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours 9 8 9 8 10 14185
    11 10 Tomorrow - Sandie Shaw 10 10 10 10 9 13420
    13 11 Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 11 14 13 14 14 11045
    15 12 Little By Little - Dusty Springfield 13= 17 11 12 17 10890
    25 13 Sha La La La Lee - The Small Faces 13= 12 16 11 18 10655
    8 14 Keep On Running - The Spencer Davis Group 12 16 15 16 8 10455
    10 15 Like A Baby - Len Barry 15 22 12 17 13 9480
    16 16 Girl - The St Louis Union 16 20 14 19 12 9265
    NEW 17 Inside Looking Out - The Animals 18 11 17 15 9100
    22 18 Uptight - Stevie Wonder 17 13 18 13 26 9075
    NEW 19 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 19 15 21 18 7000
    21 20 Girl - The Truth 20 18 19 21 6600
    24 21 Think - Chris Farlowe 23 19 22 25 5250
    18 22 Have Pity On The Boy - Paul and Barry Ryan 21 30 20 20 19 5070
    NEW 23 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 25 24 23 22 4300
    12 24 A Must To Avoid - Herman's Hermits 22 30 24 11 3650
    14 25 My Girl - Otis Redding 24 28 25 29 16 3575
    28 26 Get Out Of My Life Woman - Lee Dorsey 26 23 27 23 29 3570
    29 27 The Hard Way - The Nashville Teens 29 24 26 27 3050
    NEW 28 You've Come Back - P J Proby 27 21 30 24 2950
    NEW 29 This Golden Ring - The Fortunes 28 24 29 26 2400
    NEW 30 Backstage - Gene Pitney 27 28 1100
    Don't Make Me Over - The Swinging Blue Jeans 30 28 30 1050
    Michelle - David and Jonathan 30 20 935
    Let's Hang On - The Four Seasons 21 850
    Breaking Up Is Breaking My Heart - Roy Orbison 22 765
    Take Me To Your Heart Again - Vince Hill 23 680
    Tchaikovsky One - The Second City Sound 24 595
    Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window - Bob Dylan 25 510
    Jenny Take A Ride - Mitch Ryder and The Detroit Wheels 29 400
    Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out - The Beatles 27 340
    Till The End Of The Day - The Kinks 28 255
    Wind Me Up - Cliff Richard 30 85



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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks for the like Robbie. Appreciated.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 12th February 1966.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 12th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    7 1 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 1 1 1 1 4 18795
    5 2 You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters 2 3 2 2 2 18215
    1 3 Michelle - The Overlanders 3 4 3 3 1 17750
    NEW 4 19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones 6 2 4 4 14 16695
    2 5 Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black 4 5 5 5 5 16510
    8 6 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 7 6 6 7 7 15690
    4 7 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 5 7 7 6 3 15680
    3 8 Keep On Running - The Spencer Davis Group 8 8 8 8 6 14775
    15 9 Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours 9 10 11 10 9 13170
    11 10 Like A Baby - Len Barry 10 17 9 9 10 12285
    21 11 Tomorrow - Sandie Shaw 12 11 10 12 19 12170
    6 12 A Must To Avoid - Herman's Hermits 11 13 13 11 8 12055
    19 13 Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 14 9 14 14 26 10775
    12 14 My Girl - Otis Redding 13 14 16 16 12 10265
    24 15 Little By Little - Dusty Springfield 15 16 12 18 21 9900
    20 16 Girl - The St Louis Union 17 19 15 25 11 8700
    9 17 Let's Hang On - The Four Seasons 16 18 19 19 15 8160
    26 18 Have Pity On The Boy - Paul and Barry Ryan 18 22 17 17 18 7805
    NEW 19 My Love - Petula Clark 20 12 25 15 6900
    10 20 Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out - The Beatles 19 27 18 21 13 6580
    27 21 Girl - The Truth 23 22 20 22 5450
    NEW 22 Uptight - Stevie Wonder 21 15 13 5000
    14 23 Michelle - David and Jonathan 22 28 22 27 16 4525
    30 24 Think - Chris Farlowe 24= 21 24 24 4450
    NEW 25 Sha La La La Lee - The Small Faces 24= 20 30 20 30 3635
    18 26 The River - Ken Dodd 27 21 26 24 3595
    16 27 England Swings - Roger Miller 26 23 28 23 2980
    NEW 28 Get Out Of My Life Woman - Lee Dorsey 28 24 23 2200
    NEW 29 The Hard Way - The Nashville Teens 25 29 29 1900
    28 30 Tchaikovsky One - The Second City Sound 30 27 22 1765
    Bye Bye Blues - Bert Kaempfert 28 25 1260
    Don't Make Me Over - The Swinging Blue Jeans 26 1250
    My Ship Is Coming In - The Walker Brothers 29 17 1190
    Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 26 30 1100
    Can you Please Crawl Out Your Window - Bob Dylan 28 27 940
    Till The End Of The Day - The Kinks 20 935
    Wind Me Up - Cliff Richard 28 255
    Take Me To Your Heart Again - Vince Hill 30 200
    The Carnival Is Over - The Seekers 29 170

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks a lot for those words of support and encouragement kjell. Feedback such as yours motivates me and reminds me that lots of guys are still enjoying this site.

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  • kjell
    replied
    Hi Brian!
    You’re really disclosing the inaccuracies of the charts of the 60ies. I did expect differences caused by the use of rankings instead of sales figures, but not that they were that big in the upper 30ies with the higher sales of the second half of the 60ies. This also shows the problems that arise from Driscolls try to make his breakers bubblers for all charts and not for RM alone. With such big differences and the fever positions of the fifties one really need multiple charts to get a broad enough view of the music market of that era. Keep up the good work, this project deserves a bigger audience.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 5th February 1966.
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 5th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Michelle - The Overlanders 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    6 2 Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black 2= 3 2 2 5 17960
    2 3 Keep On Running - The Spencer Davis Group 2= 2 5 3 2 17565
    3 4 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 4 4 3 4 3 17480
    10 5 You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters 5 6 4 5 4 16645
    5 6 A Must To Avoid - Herman's Hermits 6 8 7 7 6 15125
    21 7 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 7 5 6 6 18 15055
    17 8 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 9 11 8 9 14 13395
    7 9 Let's Hang On - The Four Seasons 10 10 12 12 8 12805
    4 10 Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out - The Beatles 8 17 9 8 7 12640
    16 11 Like A Baby - Len Barry 12 12 10 10 16 12425
    13 12 My Girl - Otis Redding 11 7 14 13 13 12380
    9 13 My Ship Is Coming In - The Walker Brothers 14 15 15 16 9 10570
    12 14 Michelle - David and Jonathan 13 16 16 11 11 10450
    18 15 Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours 17 13 18 17 21 9100
    15 16 England Swings - Roger Miller 18 24 13 15 17 8690
    11 17 Til The End Of The Day - The Kinks 15 18 19 19 10 8585
    8 18 The River - Ken Dodd 16 11 14 12 8315
    26 19 Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 20 9 22 20 29 7920
    22 20 Girl - The St Louis Union 19 21 17 22 19 7420
    NEW 21 Tomorrow - Sandie Shaw 22 14 23 18 6700
    14 22 The Carnival Is Over - The Seekers 21 25 20 21 15 6310
    27 23 Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window - Bob Dylan 23 19 26 24 23 5030
    NEW 24 Little By Little - Dusty Springfield 25 20 24 23 4750
    23 25 Bye Bye Blues - Bert Kaempfert 24 27 21 25 24 4495
    NEW 26 Have Pity On The Boy - Paul and Barry Ryan 26 22 25 28 3600
    NEW 27 Girl - The Truth 28 23 27 2600
    NEW 28 Tchaikovsky One - The Second City Sound 29 28 27 27 1490
    20 29 Wind Me Up - Cliff Richard 27 30 30 20 1285
    NEW 30 Think - Chris Farlowe 26 1000
    A Hard Day's Night - Peter Sellers 22 765
    Don't Make Me Over - The Swinging Blue Jeans 29 29 700
    Take Me To Your Heart Again - Vince Hill 30 26 625
    Cryin' Time - Ray Charles 28 600
    Uptight - Stevie Wonder 28 600
    Tears - Ken Dodd 30 25 510
    Breaking Up Is Breaking My Heart - Roy Orbison 26 500
    Take Me For What I'm Worth - The Searchers 28 255
    Get Out Of My Life Woman - Lee Dorsey 30 200
    The Very Thought Of You - Tony Bennett 30 85
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Tue August 25, 2020, 20:39.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Hi all..I have amended the chart for 29th January due to the erroneously typed in chart position, see above.

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  • Graham76man
    replied
    The reason why the charts are accurate or appear to be, is due to the fact that they all had top 50's or near to it. And all of these charts were on display in either music papers or the shops themselves. Indeed many shops laid out stock in the top 50 or whatever. Unfortunately the public are not very original in what they choose. So buy what was in the top charts. Hence the surveys will look the same. The difference is in new entry records mostly. There they tend to be all over the place. Add what was going on TV each week and you can get a reasonable chart as does RR from up to 100 shops.

    The main difference on what was actually selling, would be things like distribution or records. The weather. In the UK one part of the country can have a fine day and in a larger part chucking it down. People stay at home if it's raining and go shopping when it's fine.
    Record Shops have to buy records in and then sell them on to us. They like to buy well known acts that will sell. They also get told what will sell by record company reps. The reps are not always right. So the shops get stuck with stock that won't sell. These all effect any charts.
    All the shops that took part in these surveys were known to the record companies. So would have been well supplied mostly. They were all targeted by the record companies to put records in the charts.

    Lastly the BBC restricted the chart size due to the known fiddling of the charts. By the top 20, records would have been selling in large numbers by the public. There was also a lot of pressure on the BBC not to become a top 40 USA style station. There was a lot of resistance on being to Yank.
    One of the DJ's on Radio One was that "Americanised" that when the news came on the newscaster came on and said "here is the news - in ENGLISH".

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Hmmmmm. I'll fix that tonight when I get in from work guys. Thanks.

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  • Woz1234
    replied
    Originally posted by BobPatience View Post
    The Jan. 29th, 1966 chart's 'Disc' column has two records at 20, but none at 30.
    The Very Thought Of You by Tony Bennett should be at 30.

    Leave a comment:


  • BobPatience
    replied
    The Jan. 29th, 1966 chart's 'Disc' column has two records at 20, but none at 30.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Hi camdwntownjohn. Between them, NME, MM, RR, Disc, there were over 600 shops surveyed. That is why I included all their shop surveys in my Ultimate Averaged Chart calculations. The sum of them all gives a much more representative chart than any individual one can offer.
    In the seventies BMRB never came anywhere close to this number of store returns by way of their diaries. Many were never received by the cut off date and others were flawed so couldn't be used. In fact BMRB never got anywhere near the 300 you mention.
    I believe The BBC compiled a Top 30 from October 1962 but continued to use only the Top Twenty for Pick Of The Pops and Top Of The Pops until September 1967, but then afterwards for some strange reason fell back to using the Top Twenty again.
    I got my copies of the BBC charts way back from a user of the site who is no longer around. He had inside contacts at the BBC.
    If you are interested message me and I will email them to you.

    Leave a comment:


  • camdwntownjohn
    replied
    The comparison between these charts is interesting. Apart from the occasional outlier, the similarity between the charts does suggest that they were fairly accurate. In fact it seems more shops in total were being surveyed in the 60s than in the 70s, when BMRB were using, I think, 300 while Melody Maker and NME had reduced their surveys to about 50 (and Disc used the MM chart). MM then used to report a lot of tied positions.

    I'm surprised to see that the BBC compiled a Top 30, as Top of the Pops and Pick of the Pops only used the Top 20. Radio One when it started used to just talk about the Top 20, and only changed to Top 30 in 1973. Out of interest, where were these 60s BBC charts obtained from? I only ever heard them used in the 'Double Top Ten Show' / 'Old Record Club' programmes in the 70s.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    You are spot on Robbie, and Girl by The Truth is just about to enter as well. Yeah sometimes the difference really stands out between RR and the other three charts and that is a prime example.

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  • Robbie
    replied
    The B side of 'Love's Just A Broken Heart' by Cilla Black was a cover of The Beatles 'Yesterday' which means The Beatles were involved, one way or another, with numbers 1, 4, 6, 12, 22 and 29 (have I missed any?). Strangely on Record Retailer Cilla's single is lagging well behind how it is performing on the other charts. Even allowing for the fact that RR sometimes lagged behind the others, in this instance it is well out of step.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 29th January 1966.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 29th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    4 1 Michelle - The Overlanders 1 2 1 1 1 18850
    1 2 Keep On Running - The Spencer Davis Group 2 1 2 2 2 18615
    3 3 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 3 3 3 3 3 17780
    2 4 Day Tripper / We Can Work It Out - The Beatles 4 5 4 5 4 16845
    6 5 A Must To Avoid - Herman's Hermits 5 7 5 4 6 16125
    19 6 Love's Just A Broken Heart - Cilla Black 6 4 6 6 15 15510
    8 7 Let's Hang On - The Four Seasons 7 6 8 12 5 14860
    7 8 The River - Ken Dodd 10 13 7 10 9 13570
    5 9 My Ship Is Coming In - The Walker Brothers 8 12 9 9 7 13540
    20 10 You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters 9 10 10 8 10 13535
    10 11 Till The End Of The Day - The Kinks 11 10 11 11 8 13155
    16 12 Michelle - David and Jonathan 12 9 13 7 12 12915
    11 13 My Girl - Otis Redding 13 8 14 13 11 12350
    9 14 The Carnival Is Over - The Seekers 14 14 12 14 14 11295
    15 15 England Swings - Roger Miller 15 18 15 15 13 9730
    23 16 Like A Baby - Len Barry 17 17 16 20 21 8500
    29 17 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 16 19 18 16 18 8255
    26 18 Mirror Mirror - Pinkerton's Assorted Colours 19 19 19 19 28 6855
    13 19 Tears - Ken Dodd 21 21 17 19 6520
    12 20 Wind Me Up - Cliff Richard 18 23 20 23 16 6425
    NEW 21 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 20 16 23 18 6300
    NEW 22 Girl - St Louis Union 22 25 24 17 24 4945
    24 23 Bye Bye Blues - Bert Kaempfert 24 26 21 25 25 4610
    27 24 Take Me To Your Heart Again - Vince Hill 23 22 26 26 22 4315
    14 25 Rescue me - Fontella Bass 26 28 22 22 29 3920
    30 26 Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 27 15 24 3900
    NEW 27 Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window - Bob Dylan 25 30 21 17 2390
    28 28 The Very Thought Of You - Tony Bennett 29 25 30 23 2280
    18 29 A Hard Day;s Night - Peter Sellers 28 27 28 20 2235
    RE 30 You Make It Move - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 30 24 26 1825
    Midnight To Six Man - The Pretty Things 26 1000
    To Whom It Concerns - Chris Andrews 28 750
    Thunderball - Tom Jones 29 500
    Recovery - Fontella Bass 29 400
    Breaking Up Is Breaking My Heart - Roy Orbison 27 400
    Take Me For What I'm Worth - The Searchers 27 340
    Tchaikovsky One - The Second City Sound 30 250
    Cryin' Time - Ray Charles 30 200
    Don't Make Me Over - The Swinging Blue Jeans 29 200
    1 2 3 - Len Barry 30 85
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Tue August 25, 2020, 20:19.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks Robbie. Yeah those posts you mention do clarify what I posted above, and yeah Dave's info was usually spot on but he must have missed that one.

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