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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Strange to believe but TOTP was not an automatic guarantee that a record would be a hit or climb the chart. There were many, many, new releases that got prime exposure but didn't even dent the Top 50, any many just outside the the Top 30 that got a plug and failed to break through any higher..

    I'm still at work guys but will post the next chart when I get home tonight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    So the mystery of why NME was ahead and RR behind remains unsolved!

    With regard to the importance of getting exposure on TOTP, it is interesting to see records that peaked just outside the BBC Top 20 that you feel would have had a completely different trajectory had they made it in.

    For example, Ipenema peaked at number 21. One place higher and it would have been on TOTP and you could expect it to climb up the following week.

    I have been looking to see if there was any record prevented from entering the 20 by the RR drag effect alone, but cannot find any.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    While the RR chart was originally based on averaging the results of 30 independent non-label aligned record dealers, per Alan Smith when they ramped up to 75 to 85 dealers in January 1964, they contacted EMI and Decca to obtain a list of 100 prime record shops, mostly based in London, Manchester, and Liverpool.

    https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...sic+now+charts

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post

    Well if the sales period really was the same then the types of stores sampled must account for the differences. A low sample can explain a higher number of outliers, but I cannot see a correlation between having a low sample and consistently lagging behind.

    I've always thought that RR surveyed the most independents, as originally it was for the non-aligned stores, and NME homed in on the big city centre outlets that were more likely to be ahead of the curve.
    I'm not to clear on what you mean by the "Big City Centre Outlets". Woolworth's didn't take part in any. I don't believe that WH Smith and Boots took part in any charts till much later on. The attitude they had being not willing to give sales information to the competition. Though how giving a list of only 50 records each week, the same as other stores did, would give any real information to anyone is anyone's guess. So maybe some of them did? Only refusing later on to gave actual numbers of records to BMRB.

    When Brian was doing the Record Mirror dealer charts, we only saw a few chains of stores, the rest where mostly one off dealers. And with only 250 shops tops, seeing that it was supposed to be a national chart, you could easily get lots of these one off dealers in the samples. In the 1960's there were no really big record stores in the UK anyway. It wasn't till Richard Branson stepped in with Virgin stores till you get them.

    Due to the fact the way records were released at that time on a Friday it would only guarantee two days of sales. Mind you one of those days was Saturday, when a lot of records were bought. So you could sell a lot of a well known act on that day. One theory could be that Record Retailer had a lot of badly supplied shops, hence a 41 entry for a record that should be 19. The other charts having more shops might have got around this problem, more weight to the sample. With more shops giving out 50 points to some records, while RR had far less of them giving out 50 points.

    I have seen a lot of mentions of charts using advanced orders and it could be the case that some record shops knowing the record was out in those two days of chart action did not count up what they had sold and simply gave a record 50 points on the strength of the orders it had in. But I have found no evidence from 1965 to 1967 (anyway) of any chart having a record that wasn't out in the week the charts covered on advanced orders. And I did look at all the singles charts for each sales week. In other words each record coming in very high (even at the top) was at least on sale for two days - Friday and Saturday. Plus when you compare the charts with Top of The Pops shows, broadcast the Thursday, many of the new hits were featured. So would have loads of the public out Friday and Saturday buying what they saw on TOTP.
    Sadly nearly all the newspaper charts fall down when it comes to TOTP sales. With many showing falls for records that should be climbing after an appearance on the show. In reality the top ten literally becomes the records that have been on TOTP for the last two Thursday's. And while they might be showing a record in the top five. It's actually outside the top ten due to not being on TOTP for the last two weeks. Especially former number ones!

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    This is possibly explained by something else I once read up on, in that, NME and Disc both sampled a large proportion of 'independent' shops, whereas RR and MM mainly sampled mainstream stores and shops. So just maybe this accounted for the differences but still doesn't explain the many , many, tied positions
    Well if the sales period really was the same then the types of stores sampled must account for the differences. A low sample can explain a higher number of outliers, but I cannot see a correlation between having a low sample and consistently lagging behind.

    I've always thought that RR surveyed the most independents, as originally it was for the non-aligned stores, and NME homed in on the big city centre outlets that were more likely to be ahead of the curve.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 23rd April 1966 for your interest.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 23rd 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    6 1 You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield 1 1 1 1 2 18965
    1 2 Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group 2 2 2 2 1 18500
    3 3 Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 3 3 3 5 4 17495
    10 4 Bang Bang - Cher 4 5 4 3 6 16875
    4 5 Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors 5 4 6 7 3 16430
    5 6 Substitute - The Who 6 7 5 4 8 15955
    2 7 The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers 7 6 8 6 7 15290
    11 8 Alfie - Cilla Black 8 8 7 8 12 14515
    16 9 The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters 10 9 9 11 10 13685
    9 10 Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican 9 11 11 10 5 13310
    19 11 Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful 12 10 10 9 17 12840
    14 12 I Put A Spell On You - The Alan Price Set 11 12 12 12 9 12320
    8 13 Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks 13 14 13 13 13 11230
    7 14 Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind 14 13 14 16 11 11050
    17 15 Someday One Day - The Seekers 15= 16 15 15 14 10045
    20 16 Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel 15= 15 16 14 15 10010
    12 17 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 17 17 17 17 16 8975
    NEW 18 Pretty Flamingo - Manfred Mann 19 18 18 19 22 7815
    18 19 Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard 18 20 20 18 18 7355
    22 20 You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits 20 23 22 21 20 5785
    13 21 Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds 21 29 19 22 19 5320
    NEW 22 Sloop John B - The Beach Boys 23 19 24 23 4950
    30 23 Frankie And Johnny - Elvis Presley 22 21 26 26 23 4430
    24 24 The Ballad Of The Green Berets - Staff Sgt Barry Sadler 25 25 23 25 3710
    29 25 That's Nice - Neil Christian 24 22 30 25 21 3500
    15 26 I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 26 21 27 26 3325
    28 27 Twinkle Toes - Roy Orbison 28 25 24 29 2370
    25 28 Super Girl - Graham Bonney 27 28 28 28 24 2245
    NEW 29 Highway Code - Master Singers 29 27 27 29 2000
    NEW 30 Walkin' My Cat Named Dog - Norma Tanega 30 29 20 1800
    Something On My Mind - Chris Andrews 30 24 1400
    Shotgun Wedding - Roy C 25 1200
    These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 27 340
    What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 28 255
    (You're My) Soul And Inspiration - The Righteous Brothers 30 200
    I Fought The Law - The Bobby Fuller Four 30 100
    Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Regarding #1 peaks on the various charts, here's what I posted 4 years ago. From March 1960 to Feb 1969, here's a breakdown of how many #1 records each chart had that were NOT #1 on ANY of the other charts, plus how many records were NOT #1 but were #1 on ALL the other charts.

    NME = 7 + 2 = 9 outliers across 8.9 years
    RM = 0 + 1 = 1 outlier across 2 years
    MM = 7 + 6 = 13 outliers across 8.9 years
    Disc = 9 + 5 = 14 outliers across 7.4 years
    RR = 11 + 6 = 17 outliers across 8.9 years

    Interesting stuff. For my full posting, go to

    https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...-history/page2

    and scroll down to post #60.

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    I remember that about this time there was a discussion in the NME about whether or not advance orders should count when the chart was contructed. The question was raised in connection with the Beatles regularly entering at no. 1 before so many records had been sold over the counter to the public. NME was the first British pop paper on Norwegian newsstands, arriving there in September 62.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    Record Retailer now seems to have fallen more into line with the other newspaper charts. Has there been a significant change in their compilation week? I remember Alan Smith writing about the month when Record Retailer first changed its publication date and their charts were all over the place while dealers got used to the new deadlines but that isn't for another 1 years (which should be fun to see on the Ultimate Averaged Chart, it could be all over the place!).

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 16th April 1966 for your interest.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 16th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    2 1 Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    1 2 The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers 2 2 2 2 2 18415
    5 3 Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 3 3 5 3 4 17195
    6 4 Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors 4 5 3 7 3 16980
    10 5 Substitute - The Who 5 8 4 8 5 15860
    13 6 You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield 6 4 8 4 10 15635
    3 7 Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind 7 10 6 5 7 15090
    4 8 Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks 8 11 7 6 9 14370
    7 9 Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican 9 6 11 11 6 14125
    14 10 Bang Bang - Cher 10 9 9 10 13 13530
    12 11 Alfie - Cilla Black 11 7 10 9 18 13355
    11 12 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 12 12 14 12 8 11905
    9 13 Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds 14 16 12 14 14 10895
    17 14 I Put A Spell On You - The Alan Price Set 13 13 15 15 12 10815
    8 15 I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 17 15 13 13 25 10010
    23 16 The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters 15 14 16 16 15 10010
    22 17 Someday One Day - The Seekers 16 18 18 19 11 8750
    16 18 Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard 18 19 17 17 16 8575
    NEW 19 Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful 20 17 22 18 23 7030
    25 20 Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel 19 20 21 21 17 6890
    15 21 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 21 21 20 26 19 6270
    21 22 You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits 22 29 19 20 20 5435
    18 23 What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 23 24 25 22 22 4565
    28 24 The Ballad Of The Green Berets - Staff Sgt Barry Sadler 24= 24 26 23 28 3705
    27 25 Super Girl - Graham Bonney 26 26 24 25 27 3690
    20 26 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 24= 30 23 27 21 3450
    19 27 Sha-La-La-La-Lee - The Small Faces 27 28 29 24 24 2395
    NEW 28 Twinkle Toes - Roy Orbison 28 23 30 30 29 2120
    29 29 That's Nice - Neil Christian 29= 22 29 2000
    NEW 30 Frankie And Johnny - Elvis Presley 29= 28 28 26 1475
    Backstage - Gene Pitney 27 30 1085
    Walkin' My Cat Named Dog - Norma Tanega 27 800



    Last edited by MrTibbs; Wed September 2, 2020, 14:01.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I'm with you on that one Splodj. I've commented a few times that although RR was out of step NME runs a close second.
    MM followed by Disc always seemed to be more 'in the loop' finding the middle point. Both you and Graham make a thought provoking point on the time factor needed to turn around returns, calculations and chart compilation.
    As for MM I do remember reading somewhere that in July 1960 when MM decided it was going to have the best and most accurate chart and therefore hugely increased the number of returns for compilation that it actually hired 'a group of girls' who sat with the old fashioned 'adding up machines, to do all the adding up needed due to the volume of returns that MM received

    The NME is a strange one, I too could never fathom out how they managed to have so many ties week after week and often in high positions including No 1. They also had a far bigger proportion of records reach No 1 that didn't in any other chart especially between the period of April 1965 and March 1966, The Yardbirds, The Everly Brothers, Len Barry, The Hollies. New records entered ahead of other charts but records also left their chart ahead of others too. Interestingly Disc often agreed new entry wise with NME too ahead of the others.
    This is possibly explained by something else I once read up on, in that, NME and Disc both sampled a large proportion of 'independent' shops, whereas RR and MM mainly sampled mainstream stores and shops. So just maybe this accounted for the differences but still doesn't explain the many , many, tied positions

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham76man View Post
    It would have took many hours of work to add up all the 250 returns of Melody Maker, assuming they got all 250 results in on time.
    And this is why I am even more suspicious of the NME. Instead of simply opening envelopes they had to phone round the shops first, then do all the calculations - in one day! Also noteworthy is their coyness about sample size, maverick positionings and large number of tied positions.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I apologise for running late guys as I'm just in from work.
    I totally agree with both posts above.Your points are valid and entirely credible. The haphazard way the BBC compiled their chart without due checks for errors itself shows how the BBC did not really take popular music seriously back in the day.
    We easily forget that the 'Light' programme back in the day, the forerunner to Radio 1, was not much into chart music in day to day programming.
    Top Of The Pops was quickly cobbled together not to present a serious chart show but because of the success ITV was having with Ready Steady Go. Even when Radio 1 commenced in September 1967 it wasn't much better and shared prime time listening with Radio 2 and 'What's The Recipe Today Jim' Jimmy Young. That about says it all about how serious it took the popular music industry of the sixties.

    Anyway here is what you really want , the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 9th April 1966 for your perusal.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 9th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers 1 1 2 1 1 18800
    7 2 Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group 2 2 1 2 2 18665
    4 3 Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind 3 3 3 3 5 17610
    3 4 Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks 4 4 4 4 4 17145
    11 5 Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 5 5 6 5 6 16175
    10 6 Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Your Heart - The Bachelors 6 7 5 6 9 15670
    8 7 Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican 8 6 8 11 7 14790
    2 8 I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 7 8 10 8 3 14530
    5 9 Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds 9 10 7 9 8 14355
    13 10 Substitute - The Who 10 9 9 7 11 14000
    6 11 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 11 12 11 10 10 12685
    21 12 Alfie - Cilla Black 12 14 12 13 13 11480
    28 13 You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield 13 11 14 12 16 11425
    22 14 Bang Bang - Cher 14 13 13 14 18 10905
    9 15 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 16 16 16 18 14 9495
    18 16 Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard 15 18 15 16 15 9460
    26 17 I Put A Spell On You - The Alan Price Set 17 15 18 15 24 8645
    16 18 What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 19 17 21 21 17 7490
    12 19 Sha La La La Lee - The Small Faces 18 21 20 20 12 7465
    15 20 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 21 22 17 24 20 6935
    23 21 You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits 20 20 22 17 21 6700
    20 22 Someday One Day - The Seekers 22 24 19 22 19 6320
    NEW 23 The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters 23 19 24 19 26 5775
    14 24 Backstage - Gene Pitney 24 23 23 26 22 4865
    NEW 25 Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel 25 29 25 23 27 3040
    17 26 Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie 26 25 28 29 25 2660
    NEW 27 Super Girl - Graham Bonney 28 27 27 28 2100
    29 28 The Ballad Of The Green Berets - Staff Sgt Barry Sadler 27 26 25 29 2020
    NEW 29 That's Nice - Neil Christian 30 25 1200
    19 30 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 29 29 23 1180
    Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful 28 30 700
    A Hard Day's Night - The Ramsey Lewis Trio 27 400
    I Met A Girl - The Shadows 28 255
    May Each Day - Andy Williams 30 250
    Twinkle Toes - Roy Orbison 30 200
    Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    I agree Graham. Brian’s posting of the whole top 30 of all contributing charts also reveals how the inaccuracy problems increases the farther down the chart you go. At the same time this shows how difficult Colin Driscolls try to make bubblers of all main charts in one bubblers chart was to prove. If there is a halfway solution to that problem when we still miss RM October 55 - 61, then Brians postings of these main top 30s is our only hope of partly rectifying.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    But none of the charts actually used ALL the returns the figures suggest. They only used a proportion of them and rotated them to get a sample. The idea being that the chart hypers would not know which of the much smaller shops sample made the returns. But the rub was that all the record companies knew which shops took part so they could target the vast majority of the 635 and get records into the charts. Even the BMRB and Gallup later on used the same method, though they counted actual sales of records, rather than points. Ironically when BMRB started, they made it much easier for the record companies to get records into the charts.
    It would have took many hours of work to add up all the 250 returns of Melody Maker, assuming they got all 250 results in on time. Easy these days with a spread sheet and a computer. But there wasn't even a calculator in 1966! So they probably had to cut the actual shop returns down to three quarters of the number.
    I will say again, the reason the charts look the same is down to the fact the public were buying 40 records a week that were in the charts, plus some new records and the new records placed in by records companies that will start to be bought by Joe Public when they see it in the next chart.
    Of course the most serious problem with any points based chart is that the shops supplying the information were all treated the same. If they gave 50 records as the best sellers. Then they got 50 points each for the number one. Regardless of the turnover and size of the shop.
    What I find even more odd, is that of all the 8,000 plus shops, we just can't get hold of a sales ledger for any of them. That would solve a lot of mysteries. One of them must have recorded it's weekly sales of records?

    Nevertheless it's good that Brian has spent his time correcting the BBC chart. Simply because the BBC at the time couldn't care a monkeys about the charts, well apart from the long haired louts that had recently got jobs there. That's why Top of The Pops was filmed in an old church in Manchester and not at TV centre and they didn't have a radio station to broadcast what was in the charts. They did the chart, because they didn't want to say that one of the papers charts should have it's status elevated to: As Used By The BBC or pay a fee for the use of the chart.

    Leave a comment:


  • kjell
    replied
    It’s a statistical certainty that if you check 635 stores you get a better estimate than if you check one or two hundred. But when the number gets real big the accuracy gain dwindles while the cost increases. Exact positions in the lower reaches could only be secured by real sales figures and that would obviously cost too much then.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 2nd April 1966 for your perusal.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 2nd 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    2 2 I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 2 2 3 2 2 18165
    5 3 Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks 3= 6 2 5 4 17145
    8 4 Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind 3= 3 6 3 5 16860
    3 5 Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds 3= 5 5 4 3 16780
    4 6 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 6 4 7 6 8 15855
    20 7 Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group 7 7 4 7 10 15735
    14 8 Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican 8 8 10 8 6 14275
    7 9 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 9 10 8 10 9 13920
    16 10 Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Your Heart - The Bachelors* 10 9 9 9 12 13715
    15 11 Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 11 11 11 11 11 12700
    6 12 Sha-La-La-La-Lee - The Small Faces 12 13 12 12 7 12290
    18 13 Substitute - The Who 13 12 15 16 14 10745
    9 14 Backstage - Gene Pitney 14 15 14 13 16 10525
    10 15 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 16 16 13 14 17 10390
    13 16 What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 15 14 17 15 13 10030
    12 17 Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie 17 18 16 18 18 8755
    24 18 Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard 18 19 18 17 19 8070
    11 19 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 19 22 19 20 15 7260
    NEW 20 Someday One Day - The Seekers 20 24 20 24 21 5700
    NEW 21 Alfie - Cilla Black 21 21 21 19 5700
    NEW 22 Bang Bang - Cher 22= 17 25 21 5300
    NEW 23 You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits 22= 23 24 22 25 4760
    17 24 My Love - Petula Clark 25 26 22 28 24 4145
    21 25 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 24 29 23 26 20 3835
    NEW 26 I Put A Spell On You - The Alan Price Set 27 20 27 2600
    27 27 I Met A Girl - The Shadows 26 26 29 22 2215
    NEW 28 You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield 28 25 23 2000
    NEW 29 The Ballad Of The Green Berets - Staff Sgt Barry Sadler 29 29 27 26 1825
    25 30 May Each Day - Andy Williams 30 28 23 1430
    *Split sides on NME but not affecting average chart position
    Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors* 27
    Super Girl - Graham Bonney 28 30 850
    Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel 25 29 770
    Woman - Peter and Gordon 29 30 600
    That's Nice - Neil Christian 29 400
    Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 27 340
    Heartaches - Vince Hill 28 255
    Inside Looking Out - The Animals 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Although I still hold with the BBC chart (in principle although poor in practise) if I had to go with a music paper chart from the time I would go with MM then Disc.

    MM always seemed to hold the middle ground consistently well and used the biggest sample which obviously produced an authoritative chart . NME too far ahead because of advanced orders and RR too slow because of insufficient store sampling.

    But the strange thing is, so did Disc find the middle ground despite also using advance orders. They only used a sample of 100 a mere 15 more than RR yet managed to compile a chart that hit the middle ground between the fast NME and slow RR. I don't get why, but they managed to do this consistently well.

    I hate labouring the point but even in retrospect it is clear that an average chart rectifies the problems. It smoothes out the chart by removing minor inaccuracies and inconsistencies and produces a more balanced chart overall. The more I produce these charts the clearer this becomes to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    Yes the NME seems to be the other chart with peculiar placings, although not nearly as bad as RR. Sometimes it seems that they have accelerated a record's climb in order to be ahead of the game (even after the advance orders would have had an effect) but on the other hand the large number of tied positions suggests a degree of honesty.

    Disc comes out of it quite well. In the Sun article they were the best performer by far, matching the Top 7 that the Sun analysis had determined by sales and points - suggesting to me at least that their sampling was no less than the others and possibly larger at that time. They seem to be the forgotten chart; understandable because Disc had a lower readership, no newspaper carried their chart and it retired early!
    Last edited by Splodj; Mon August 31, 2020, 09:00.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Whatever the reason RR simply got it wrong and that is where the sensibility of an averaged chart kicks in. Where any one chart makes a major error, and let's face it RR got it wrong more than most, the averaging system ironed this out by the other charts getting it right so the average chart position corrected this.

    So with an averaged chart 19th and Please both get their places at No 1. The more I work with all the individual charts compiling ours the more the evidence piles up to support an averaging system is by far the best as extremes are corrected in any one chart by the others which largely agree. Also RR is by far the worst but NME can be guilty too of being the chart out of step, not by being inaccurate, but their system of accepting advance orders meant records often debuted far higher than the other charts and records often left their chart before the others too, so again averaging out provided a balance to this.

    That said, I am human too and can sometimes despite taking as much care as possible make the occasional error. That's the beauty of posting on here, you guys who look at the charts here with fresh eyes can pick up on the occasional error and point it out so that it can be corrected. Don't get me wrong, most pick ups are spelling or fact errors that don't affect positions and I reckon, thus far, I have made only one bad error where I entered a 20 rather than a 30 for a Tony Bennett record requiring re-calculation.

    So, with all that said, again welcome to The Ultimate Averaged Chart lol.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I just stumbled across an old email from Dave Taylor, from 12 Nov 2012, where he told me the following:

    Since we last spoke, I've been digging around, with people that have worked in the industry, & one that was involved with Record Retailer.

    The interesting thing I found out about RR is quite easy to believe, & puts it further down the list of correctness.

    Apparently all tied positions in that chart were separated, & I was told that many #1s were in tied positions, but were separated by looking at the previous week's position.

    Nineteenth Nervous Breakdown has been separated in this way & should of been #1. There are other instances in 1962, where Stranger On The Shore was mixed up with Midnight In Moscow, & another where a tie between Stranger On The Shore & The Young Ones were separated.

    There was also a mistake in March 66, where Nancy Sinatra had the Small Faces points award to her by mistake. She should of fallen to #6 & the Small Faces should of gone to #1, but they were mixed up. Both artists beginning with "S" you see!

    Similar story with NME in August 68. Tom Jones was given the points of Tommy James & on the 31st Aug, it prevented the Bee Gees from going to the top. Had this mistake not occurred, the 3 way BBC tie would not of happened. The Bee Gees would of been sole #1, with Herb Alpert & the Beach Boys being joint #2!

    Note that Dave says for ties, RR separated them by looking at "the previous week's position", not "rate of change from the previous week's position". So perhaps the higher record from the prior week got the higher position for the current week? That could explain things, though this does not agree with Alan's research. My brain still hurts, ha...

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    I am perplexed by that story about Breakdown and Boots tying for number one in RR.

    If there was a tie in the first week, Breakdown would go on top under their tiebreak rule because it was the fastest riser - being at a lower position than Boots the previous week. If there was a tie in subsequent weeks, Breakdown would also go on top - because in any tiebreak for the top using the 'greatest improvement' rule the incumbent number one will always lose.

    So I don't see how there could have been a tie without Breakdown becoming number one.
    I noticed the same thing Splodj, and contacted Alan Smith several times about this, and I still don't have a handle on it. Alan mentions in his articles/posts that RR broke the ties with a % rate change of sales (week over week), but was this a % rate change of sales, or a % rate change of chart positions? A rate change of sales would require dealers to keep sales data for 2 weeks before tossing the info, and they only reported chart positions back to RR.

    Alan also told me that RR would break ties by calling a FEW of their largest dealers from their total pool, and getting actual sales of those tied records. So I can't explain how it all works out as of yet, but we have this info from Alan, and we have the info from Dave that Breakdown and Boots tied, and Breakdown lost out due to the tiebreaker.

    Maybe RR was using a 2 layered tiebreaker, (1) rate change of chart positions, and then (2) actual sales of a FEW dealers. That might be it, what Alan was trying to say. But still, I can't come up with a scenario where RR could have kept a tied 19th Nervous Breakdown out of the #1 slot. My brain hurts...
    Last edited by RokinRobinOfLocksley; Sun August 30, 2020, 23:49.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah Robin is a wizard with those stats and I too have to say I find them really useful, relevant and enjoyable.

    I honestly believe kjell we really are seeing the most representative chart of the times. Taking the BBC's principle of an averaged chart being best a step further by factoring in store returns and correcting their errors along the way gives us what should be 'The Official Chart', giving 19th Nervous Breakdown, and in a few months Please Please Me, their rightful chart topping places

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  • Splodj
    replied
    I am perplexed by that story about Breakdown and Boots tying for number one in RR.

    If there was a tie in the first week, Breakdown would go on top under their tiebreak rule because it was the fastest riser - being at a lower position than Boots the previous week. If there was a tie in subsequent weeks, Breakdown would also go on top - because in any tiebreak for the top using the 'greatest improvement' rule the incumbent number one will always lose.

    So I don't see how there could have been a tie without Breakdown becoming number one.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks Robin, I have the same info sent by Dave saved somewhere but didn't have it to hand for the detail when I replied above, but you are spot on, that is exactly what Dave told me also. Also I am pretty sure given the other strange pattern that week that they also mixed up Alpert and Arnold and gave them the opposite chart positions as well.

    I think the only consolation for The Stones is that RR did at least give them No 1's with It's All Over Now and Little Red Rooster whereas The Beatles flew straight to No 1 in all other three charts.

    I'm currently compiling way ahead in August 66 guys to keep you supplied with charts on a daily basis so on that subject :

    Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 26th March 1966, for your perusal.
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 26th 1966 NME MM DISC RR Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    2 2 I Can't Let Go - The Hollies 2 2 2 2 2 18415
    8 3 Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds 3 4 3 3 3 17580
    6 4 Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold 4 3 4 4 10 16835
    10 5 Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks 5 6 5 5 6 16225
    3 6 Sha-La-La-La-Lee - The Small Faces 6 7 6 6 4 15845
    4 7 Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys 7 5 7 7 5 15810
    16 8 Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind 8 7 9 9 8 14455
    5 9 Backstage - Gene Pitney 9 9 8 8 9 14320
    7 10 These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra 10 10 10 10 12 13165
    9 11 A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders 11 13 11 11 7 12640
    11 12 Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie 12 11 12 12 11 12350
    17 13 What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher 13 14 13 13 13 11230
    25 14 Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican 14 12 14 14 18 10855
    19 15 Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 15 17 17 15 14 9345
    29 16 Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors* 18 16 15 18 20 9235
    12 17 My Love - Petula Clark 17 19 16 16 16 8925
    18 18 Substitute - The Who 16 17 18 17 15 8810
    13 19 19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones 19 23 19 20 17 6890
    NEW 20 Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group 20 15 23 21 29 6370
    15 21 Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert 21 25 20 23 19 5770
    22 22 Woman - Peter and Gordon 22 22 21 22 5200
    14 23 Inside Looking Out - The Animals 23 24 22 24 21 5200
    NEW 24 Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard 24 20 29 19 3900
    24 25 May Each Day - Andy Williams 25 27 25 25 22 3665
    21 26 You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters 27 24 25 2260
    NEW 27 I Met A Girl - The Shadows 26 30 27 28 26 1925
    20 28 Blue River - Elvis Presley 28 28 28 29 27 1890
    28 29 You Don't Love Me - Gary Walker 26 1250
    26 30 I Got You (I Feel Good) - James Brown 25 1200
    *Split sides on NME but not affecting average chart position
    Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors* 21
    Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand 29 23 680
    Heartaches - Vince Hill 29 28 655
    This Golden Ring - The Fortunes 30 24 595
    Someday One Day - The Seekers 26 500
    Please Stay - The Cryin' Shames 27 400
    You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits 30 250
    Why Don't I Run Away - Kiki Dee 30 100
    Uptight - Stevie Wonder 30 85


    Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun August 30, 2020, 21:38. Reason: .

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