The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Strange to believe but TOTP was not an automatic guarantee that a record would be a hit or climb the chart. There were many, many, new releases that got prime exposure but didn't even dent the Top 50, any many just outside the the Top 30 that got a plug and failed to break through any higher..

I'm still at work guys but will post the next chart when I get home tonight.

[Splodj]

So the mystery of why NME was ahead and RR behind remains unsolved!

With regard to the importance of getting exposure on TOTP, it is interesting to see records that peaked just outside the BBC Top 20 that you feel would have had a completely different trajectory had they made it in.

For example, Ipenema peaked at number 21. One place higher and it would have been on TOTP and you could expect it to climb up the following week.

I have been looking to see if there was any record prevented from entering the 20 by the RR drag effect alone, but cannot find any.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

While the RR chart was originally based on averaging the results of 30 independent non-label aligned record dealers, per Alan Smith when they ramped up to 75 to 85 dealers in January 1964, they contacted EMI and Decca to obtain a list of 100 prime record shops, mostly based in London, Manchester, and Liverpool.

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...sic+now+charts

[Graham76man]

Well if the sales period really was the same then the types of stores sampled must account for the differences. A low sample can explain a higher number of outliers, but I cannot see a correlation between having a low sample and consistently lagging behind.

I've always thought that RR surveyed the most independents, as originally it was for the non-aligned stores, and NME homed in on the big city centre outlets that were more likely to be ahead of the curve.

I'm not to clear on what you mean by the "Big City Centre Outlets". Woolworth's didn't take part in any. I don't believe that WH Smith and Boots took part in any charts till much later on. The attitude they had being not willing to give sales information to the competition. Though how giving a list of only 50 records each week, the same as other stores did, would give any real information to anyone is anyone's guess. So maybe some of them did? Only refusing later on to gave actual numbers of records to BMRB.

When Brian was doing the Record Mirror dealer charts, we only saw a few chains of stores, the rest where mostly one off dealers. And with only 250 shops tops, seeing that it was supposed to be a national chart, you could easily get lots of these one off dealers in the samples. In the 1960's there were no really big record stores in the UK anyway. It wasn't till Richard Branson stepped in with Virgin stores till you get them.

Due to the fact the way records were released at that time on a Friday it would only guarantee two days of sales. Mind you one of those days was Saturday, when a lot of records were bought. So you could sell a lot of a well known act on that day. One theory could be that Record Retailer had a lot of badly supplied shops, hence a 41 entry for a record that should be 19. The other charts having more shops might have got around this problem, more weight to the sample. With more shops giving out 50 points to some records, while RR had far less of them giving out 50 points.

I have seen a lot of mentions of charts using advanced orders and it could be the case that some record shops knowing the record was out in those two days of chart action did not count up what they had sold and simply gave a record 50 points on the strength of the orders it had in. But I have found no evidence from 1965 to 1967 (anyway) of any chart having a record that wasn't out in the week the charts covered on advanced orders. And I did look at all the singles charts for each sales week. In other words each record coming in very high (even at the top) was at least on sale for two days - Friday and Saturday. Plus when you compare the charts with Top of The Pops shows, broadcast the Thursday, many of the new hits were featured. So would have loads of the public out Friday and Saturday buying what they saw on TOTP.
Sadly nearly all the newspaper charts fall down when it comes to TOTP sales. With many showing falls for records that should be climbing after an appearance on the show. In reality the top ten literally becomes the records that have been on TOTP for the last two Thursday's. And while they might be showing a record in the top five. It's actually outside the top ten due to not being on TOTP for the last two weeks. Especially former number ones!

[Splodj]

This is possibly explained by something else I once read up on, in that, NME and Disc both sampled a large proportion of 'independent' shops, whereas RR and MM mainly sampled mainstream stores and shops. So just maybe this accounted for the differences but still doesn't explain the many , many, tied positions

Well if the sales period really was the same then the types of stores sampled must account for the differences. A low sample can explain a higher number of outliers, but I cannot see a correlation between having a low sample and consistently lagging behind.

I've always thought that RR surveyed the most independents, as originally it was for the non-aligned stores, and NME homed in on the big city centre outlets that were more likely to be ahead of the curve.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 23rd April 1966 for your interest.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 23rd 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
6	1	You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield					1	1	1	1	2	18965
1	2	Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group					2	2	2	2	1	18500
3	3	Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					3	3	3	5	4	17495
10	4	Bang Bang - Cher					4	5	4	3	6	16875
4	5	Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors					5	4	6	7	3	16430
5	6	Substitute - The Who					6	7	5	4	8	15955
2	7	The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers					7	6	8	6	7	15290
11	8	Alfie - Cilla Black					8	8	7	8	12	14515
16	9	The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters					10	9	9	11	10	13685
9	10	Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican					9	11	11	10	5	13310
19	11	Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful					12	10	10	9	17	12840
14	12	I Put A Spell On You - The Alan Price Set					11	12	12	12	9	12320
8	13	Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks					13	14	13	13	13	11230
7	14	Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind					14	13	14	16	11	11050
17	15	Someday One Day - The Seekers					15=	16	15	15	14	10045
20	16	Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel					15=	15	16	14	15	10010
12	17	Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold					17	17	17	17	16	8975
NEW	18	Pretty Flamingo - Manfred Mann					19	18	18	19	22	7815
18	19	Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard					18	20	20	18	18	7355
22	20	You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits					20	23	22	21	20	5785
13	21	Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds					21	29	19	22	19	5320
NEW	22	Sloop John B - The Beach Boys					23	19	24	23		4950
30	23	Frankie And Johnny - Elvis Presley					22	21	26	26	23	4430
24	24	The Ballad Of The Green Berets - Staff Sgt Barry Sadler					25	25	23		25	3710
29	25	That's Nice - Neil Christian					24	22	30	25	21	3500
15	26	I Can't Let Go - The Hollies					26		21	27	26	3325
28	27	Twinkle Toes - Roy Orbison					28		25	24	29	2370
25	28	Super Girl - Graham Bonney					27	28	28	28	24	2245
NEW	29	Highway Code - Master Singers					29	27	27	29		2000
NEW	30	Walkin' My Cat Named Dog - Norma Tanega						30	29	20		1800
		Something On My Mind - Chris Andrews					30	24				1400
		Shotgun Wedding - Roy C						25				1200
		These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra									27	340
		What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher									28	255
		(You're My) Soul And Inspiration - The Righteous Brothers						30				200
		I Fought The Law - The Bobby Fuller Four								30		100
		Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys									30	85

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Regarding #1 peaks on the various charts, here's what I posted 4 years ago. From March 1960 to Feb 1969, here's a breakdown of how many #1 records each chart had that were NOT #1 on ANY of the other charts, plus how many records were NOT #1 but were #1 on ALL the other charts.

NME = 7 + 2 = 9 outliers across 8.9 years
RM = 0 + 1 = 1 outlier across 2 years
MM = 7 + 6 = 13 outliers across 8.9 years
Disc = 9 + 5 = 14 outliers across 7.4 years
RR = 11 + 6 = 17 outliers across 8.9 years

Interesting stuff. For my full posting, go to

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...-history/page2

and scroll down to post #60.

[kjell]

I remember that about this time there was a discussion in the NME about whether or not advance orders should count when the chart was contructed. The question was raised in connection with the Beatles regularly entering at no. 1 before so many records had been sold over the counter to the public. NME was the first British pop paper on Norwegian newsstands, arriving there in September 62.

[Robbie]

Record Retailer now seems to have fallen more into line with the other newspaper charts. Has there been a significant change in their compilation week? I remember Alan Smith writing about the month when Record Retailer first changed its publication date and their charts were all over the place while dealers got used to the new deadlines but that isn't for another 1¼ years (which should be fun to see on the Ultimate Averaged Chart, it could be all over the place!).

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 16th April 1966 for your interest.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 16th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
2	1	Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group					1	1	1	1	1	19050
1	2	The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers					2	2	2	2	2	18415
5	3	Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					3	3	5	3	4	17195
6	4	Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors					4	5	3	7	3	16980
10	5	Substitute - The Who					5	8	4	8	5	15860
13	6	You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield					6	4	8	4	10	15635
3	7	Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind					7	10	6	5	7	15090
4	8	Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks					8	11	7	6	9	14370
7	9	Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican					9	6	11	11	6	14125
14	10	Bang Bang - Cher					10	9	9	10	13	13530
12	11	Alfie - Cilla Black					11	7	10	9	18	13355
11	12	Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold					12	12	14	12	8	11905
9	13	Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds					14	16	12	14	14	10895
17	14	I Put A Spell On You - The Alan Price Set					13	13	15	15	12	10815
8	15	I Can't Let Go - The Hollies					17	15	13	13	25	10010
23	16	The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters					15	14	16	16	15	10010
22	17	Someday One Day - The Seekers					16	18	18	19	11	8750
16	18	Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard					18	19	17	17	16	8575
NEW	19	Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful					20	17	22	18	23	7030
25	20	Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel					19	20	21	21	17	6890
15	21	Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys					21	21	20	26	19	6270
21	22	You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits					22	29	19	20	20	5435
18	23	What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher					23	24	25	22	22	4565
28	24	The Ballad Of The Green Berets - Staff Sgt Barry Sadler					24=	24	26	23	28	3705
27	25	Super Girl - Graham Bonney					26	26	24	25	27	3690
20	26	These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra					24=	30	23	27	21	3450
19	27	Sha-La-La-La-Lee - The Small Faces					27	28	29	24	24	2395
NEW	28	Twinkle Toes - Roy Orbison					28	23	30	30	29	2120
29	29	That's Nice - Neil Christian					29=	22		29		2000
NEW	30	Frankie And Johnny - Elvis Presley					29=		28	28	26	1475
		Backstage - Gene Pitney							27		30	1085
		Walkin' My Cat Named Dog - Norma Tanega						27				800

[MrTibbs]

I'm with you on that one Splodj. I've commented a few times that although RR was out of step NME runs a close second.
MM followed by Disc always seemed to be more 'in the loop' finding the middle point. Both you and Graham make a thought provoking point on the time factor needed to turn around returns, calculations and chart compilation.
As for MM I do remember reading somewhere that in July 1960 when MM decided it was going to have the best and most accurate chart and therefore hugely increased the number of returns for compilation that it actually hired 'a group of girls' who sat with the old fashioned 'adding up machines, to do all the adding up needed due to the volume of returns that MM received

The NME is a strange one, I too could never fathom out how they managed to have so many ties week after week and often in high positions including No 1. They also had a far bigger proportion of records reach No 1 that didn't in any other chart especially between the period of April 1965 and March 1966, The Yardbirds, The Everly Brothers, Len Barry, The Hollies. New records entered ahead of other charts but records also left their chart ahead of others too. Interestingly Disc often agreed new entry wise with NME too ahead of the others.
This is possibly explained by something else I once read up on, in that, NME and Disc both sampled a large proportion of 'independent' shops, whereas RR and MM mainly sampled mainstream stores and shops. So just maybe this accounted for the differences but still doesn't explain the many , many, tied positions

[Splodj]

It would have took many hours of work to add up all the 250 returns of Melody Maker, assuming they got all 250 results in on time.

And this is why I am even more suspicious of the NME. Instead of simply opening envelopes they had to phone round the shops first, then do all the calculations - in one day! Also noteworthy is their coyness about sample size, maverick positionings and large number of tied positions.

[MrTibbs]

I apologise for running late guys as I'm just in from work.
I totally agree with both posts above.Your points are valid and entirely credible. The haphazard way the BBC compiled their chart without due checks for errors itself shows how the BBC did not really take popular music seriously back in the day.
We easily forget that the 'Light' programme back in the day, the forerunner to Radio 1, was not much into chart music in day to day programming.
Top Of The Pops was quickly cobbled together not to present a serious chart show but because of the success ITV was having with Ready Steady Go. Even when Radio 1 commenced in September 1967 it wasn't much better and shared prime time listening with Radio 2 and 'What's The Recipe Today Jim' Jimmy Young. That about says it all about how serious it took the popular music industry of the sixties.

Anyway here is what you really want , the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 9th April 1966 for your perusal.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 9th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers					1	1	2	1	1	18800
7	2	Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group					2	2	1	2	2	18665
4	3	Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind					3	3	3	3	5	17610
3	4	Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks					4	4	4	4	4	17145
11	5	Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					5	5	6	5	6	16175
10	6	Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Your Heart - The Bachelors					6	7	5	6	9	15670
8	7	Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican					8	6	8	11	7	14790
2	8	I Can't Let Go - The Hollies					7	8	10	8	3	14530
5	9	Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds					9	10	7	9	8	14355
13	10	Substitute - The Who					10	9	9	7	11	14000
6	11	Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold					11	12	11	10	10	12685
21	12	Alfie - Cilla Black					12	14	12	13	13	11480
28	13	You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield					13	11	14	12	16	11425
22	14	Bang Bang - Cher					14	13	13	14	18	10905
9	15	Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys					16	16	16	18	14	9495
18	16	Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard					15	18	15	16	15	9460
26	17	I Put A Spell On You - The Alan Price Set					17	15	18	15	24	8645
16	18	What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher					19	17	21	21	17	7490
12	19	Sha La La La Lee - The Small Faces					18	21	20	20	12	7465
15	20	These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra					21	22	17	24	20	6935
23	21	You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits					20	20	22	17	21	6700
20	22	Someday One Day - The Seekers					22	24	19	22	19	6320
NEW	23	The Pied Piper - Crispian St Peters					23	19	24	19	26	5775
14	24	Backstage - Gene Pitney					24	23	23	26	22	4865
NEW	25	Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel					25	29	25	23	27	3040
17	26	Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie					26	25	28	29	25	2660
NEW	27	Super Girl - Graham Bonney					28	27	27	28		2100
29	28	The Ballad Of The Green Berets - Staff Sgt Barry Sadler					27		26	25	29	2020
NEW	29	That's Nice - Neil Christian					30	25				1200
19	30	A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders					29		29		23	1180
		Daydream - The Lovin' Spoonful						28		30		700
		A Hard Day's Night - The Ramsey Lewis Trio								27		400
		I Met A Girl - The Shadows									28	255
		May Each Day - Andy Williams							30			250
		Twinkle Toes - Roy Orbison						30				200
		Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert									30	85

[kjell]

I agree Graham. Brian’s posting of the whole top 30 of all contributing charts also reveals how the inaccuracy problems increases the farther down the chart you go. At the same time this shows how difficult Colin Driscolls try to make bubblers of all main charts in one bubblers chart was to prove. If there is a halfway solution to that problem when we still miss RM October 55 - 61, then Brians postings of these main top 30s is our only hope of partly rectifying.

[Graham76man]

But none of the charts actually used ALL the returns the figures suggest. They only used a proportion of them and rotated them to get a sample. The idea being that the chart hypers would not know which of the much smaller shops sample made the returns. But the rub was that all the record companies knew which shops took part so they could target the vast majority of the 635 and get records into the charts. Even the BMRB and Gallup later on used the same method, though they counted actual sales of records, rather than points. Ironically when BMRB started, they made it much easier for the record companies to get records into the charts.
It would have took many hours of work to add up all the 250 returns of Melody Maker, assuming they got all 250 results in on time. Easy these days with a spread sheet and a computer. But there wasn't even a calculator in 1966! So they probably had to cut the actual shop returns down to three quarters of the number.
I will say again, the reason the charts look the same is down to the fact the public were buying 40 records a week that were in the charts, plus some new records and the new records placed in by records companies that will start to be bought by Joe Public when they see it in the next chart.
Of course the most serious problem with any points based chart is that the shops supplying the information were all treated the same. If they gave 50 records as the best sellers. Then they got 50 points each for the number one. Regardless of the turnover and size of the shop.
What I find even more odd, is that of all the 8,000 plus shops, we just can't get hold of a sales ledger for any of them. That would solve a lot of mysteries. One of them must have recorded it's weekly sales of records?

Nevertheless it's good that Brian has spent his time correcting the BBC chart. Simply because the BBC at the time couldn't care a monkeys about the charts, well apart from the long haired louts that had recently got jobs there. That's why Top of The Pops was filmed in an old church in Manchester and not at TV centre and they didn't have a radio station to broadcast what was in the charts. They did the chart, because they didn't want to say that one of the papers charts should have it's status elevated to: As Used By The BBC or pay a fee for the use of the chart.

[kjell]

It’s a statistical certainty that if you check 635 stores you get a better estimate than if you check one or two hundred. But when the number gets real big the accuracy gain dwindles while the cost increases. Exact positions in the lower reaches could only be secured by real sales figures and that would obviously cost too much then.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 2nd April 1966 for your perusal.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 2nd 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers					1	1	1	1	1	19050
2	2	I Can't Let Go - The Hollies					2	2	3	2	2	18165
5	3	Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks					3=	6	2	5	4	17145
8	4	Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind					3=	3	6	3	5	16860
3	5	Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds					3=	5	5	4	3	16780
4	6	Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold					6	4	7	6	8	15855
20	7	Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group					7	7	4	7	10	15735
14	8	Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican					8	8	10	8	6	14275
7	9	Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys					9	10	8	10	9	13920
16	10	Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Your Heart - The Bachelors*					10	9	9	9	12	13715
15	11	Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					11	11	11	11	11	12700
6	12	Sha-La-La-La-Lee - The Small Faces					12	13	12	12	7	12290
18	13	Substitute - The Who					13	12	15	16	14	10745
9	14	Backstage - Gene Pitney					14	15	14	13	16	10525
10	15	These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra					16	16	13	14	17	10390
13	16	What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher					15	14	17	15	13	10030
12	17	Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie					17	18	16	18	18	8755
24	18	Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard					18	19	18	17	19	8070
11	19	A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders					19	22	19	20	15	7260
NEW	20	Someday One Day - The Seekers					20	24	20	24	21	5700
NEW	21	Alfie - Cilla Black					21	21	21	19		5700
NEW	22	Bang Bang - Cher					22=	17	25	21		5300
NEW	23	You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits					22=	23	24	22	25	4760
17	24	My Love - Petula Clark					25	26	22	28	24	4145
21	25	Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert					24	29	23	26	20	3835
NEW	26	I Put A Spell On You - The Alan Price Set					27	20		27		2600
27	27	I Met A Girl - The Shadows					26		26	29	22	2215
NEW	28	You Don't Have To Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield					28	25		23		2000
NEW	29	The Ballad Of The Green Berets - Staff Sgt Barry Sadler					29	29	27		26	1825
25	30	May Each Day - Andy Williams					30		28		23	1430
		*Split sides on NME but not affecting average chart position
		Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors*						27
		Super Girl - Graham Bonney						28	30			850
		Homeward Bound - Simon and Garfunkel								25	29	770
		Woman - Peter and Gordon							29	30		600
		That's Nice - Neil Christian						29				400
		Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand									27	340
		Heartaches - Vince Hill									28	255
		Inside Looking Out - The Animals									30	85

[MrTibbs]

Although I still hold with the BBC chart (in principle although poor in practise) if I had to go with a music paper chart from the time I would go with MM then Disc.

MM always seemed to hold the middle ground consistently well and used the biggest sample which obviously produced an authoritative chart . NME too far ahead because of advanced orders and RR too slow because of insufficient store sampling.

But the strange thing is, so did Disc find the middle ground despite also using advance orders. They only used a sample of 100 a mere 15 more than RR yet managed to compile a chart that hit the middle ground between the fast NME and slow RR. I don't get why, but they managed to do this consistently well.

I hate labouring the point but even in retrospect it is clear that an average chart rectifies the problems. It smoothes out the chart by removing minor inaccuracies and inconsistencies and produces a more balanced chart overall. The more I produce these charts the clearer this becomes to me.

[Splodj]

Yes the NME seems to be the other chart with peculiar placings, although not nearly as bad as RR. Sometimes it seems that they have accelerated a record's climb in order to be ahead of the game (even after the advance orders would have had an effect) but on the other hand the large number of tied positions suggests a degree of honesty.

Disc comes out of it quite well. In the Sun article they were the best performer by far, matching the Top 7 that the Sun analysis had determined by sales and points - suggesting to me at least that their sampling was no less than the others and possibly larger at that time. They seem to be the forgotten chart; understandable because Disc had a lower readership, no newspaper carried their chart and it retired early!

[MrTibbs]

Whatever the reason RR simply got it wrong and that is where the sensibility of an averaged chart kicks in. Where any one chart makes a major error, and let's face it RR got it wrong more than most, the averaging system ironed this out by the other charts getting it right so the average chart position corrected this.

So with an averaged chart 19th and Please both get their places at No 1. The more I work with all the individual charts compiling ours the more the evidence piles up to support an averaging system is by far the best as extremes are corrected in any one chart by the others which largely agree. Also RR is by far the worst but NME can be guilty too of being the chart out of step, not by being inaccurate, but their system of accepting advance orders meant records often debuted far higher than the other charts and records often left their chart before the others too, so again averaging out provided a balance to this.

That said, I am human too and can sometimes despite taking as much care as possible make the occasional error. That's the beauty of posting on here, you guys who look at the charts here with fresh eyes can pick up on the occasional error and point it out so that it can be corrected. Don't get me wrong, most pick ups are spelling or fact errors that don't affect positions and I reckon, thus far, I have made only one bad error where I entered a 20 rather than a 30 for a Tony Bennett record requiring re-calculation.

So, with all that said, again welcome to The Ultimate Averaged Chart lol.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

I just stumbled across an old email from Dave Taylor, from 12 Nov 2012, where he told me the following:

Since we last spoke, I've been digging around, with people that have worked in the industry, & one that was involved with Record Retailer.

The interesting thing I found out about RR is quite easy to believe, & puts it further down the list of correctness.

Apparently all tied positions in that chart were separated, & I was told that many #1s were in tied positions, but were separated by looking at the previous week's position.

Nineteenth Nervous Breakdown has been separated in this way & should of been #1. There are other instances in 1962, where Stranger On The Shore was mixed up with Midnight In Moscow, & another where a tie between Stranger On The Shore & The Young Ones were separated.

There was also a mistake in March 66, where Nancy Sinatra had the Small Faces points award to her by mistake. She should of fallen to #6 & the Small Faces should of gone to #1, but they were mixed up. Both artists beginning with "S" you see!

Similar story with NME in August 68. Tom Jones was given the points of Tommy James & on the 31st Aug, it prevented the Bee Gees from going to the top. Had this mistake not occurred, the 3 way BBC tie would not of happened. The Bee Gees would of been sole #1, with Herb Alpert & the Beach Boys being joint #2!

Note that Dave says for ties, RR separated them by looking at "the previous week's position", not "rate of change from the previous week's position". So perhaps the higher record from the prior week got the higher position for the current week? That could explain things, though this does not agree with Alan's research. My brain still hurts, ha...

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

I am perplexed by that story about Breakdown and Boots tying for number one in RR.

If there was a tie in the first week, Breakdown would go on top under their tiebreak rule because it was the fastest riser - being at a lower position than Boots the previous week. If there was a tie in subsequent weeks, Breakdown would also go on top - because in any tiebreak for the top using the 'greatest improvement' rule the incumbent number one will always lose.

So I don't see how there could have been a tie without Breakdown becoming number one.

I noticed the same thing Splodj, and contacted Alan Smith several times about this, and I still don't have a handle on it. Alan mentions in his articles/posts that RR broke the ties with a % rate change of sales (week over week), but was this a % rate change of sales, or a % rate change of chart positions? A rate change of sales would require dealers to keep sales data for 2 weeks before tossing the info, and they only reported chart positions back to RR.

Alan also told me that RR would break ties by calling a FEW of their largest dealers from their total pool, and getting actual sales of those tied records. So I can't explain how it all works out as of yet, but we have this info from Alan, and we have the info from Dave that Breakdown and Boots tied, and Breakdown lost out due to the tiebreaker.

Maybe RR was using a 2 layered tiebreaker, (1) rate change of chart positions, and then (2) actual sales of a FEW dealers. That might be it, what Alan was trying to say. But still, I can't come up with a scenario where RR could have kept a tied 19th Nervous Breakdown out of the #1 slot. My brain hurts...

[MrTibbs]

Yeah Robin is a wizard with those stats and I too have to say I find them really useful, relevant and enjoyable.

I honestly believe kjell we really are seeing the most representative chart of the times. Taking the BBC's principle of an averaged chart being best a step further by factoring in store returns and correcting their errors along the way gives us what should be 'The Official Chart', giving 19th Nervous Breakdown, and in a few months Please Please Me, their rightful chart topping places

[Splodj]

I am perplexed by that story about Breakdown and Boots tying for number one in RR.

If there was a tie in the first week, Breakdown would go on top under their tiebreak rule because it was the fastest riser - being at a lower position than Boots the previous week. If there was a tie in subsequent weeks, Breakdown would also go on top - because in any tiebreak for the top using the 'greatest improvement' rule the incumbent number one will always lose.

So I don't see how there could have been a tie without Breakdown becoming number one.

[MrTibbs]

Thanks Robin, I have the same info sent by Dave saved somewhere but didn't have it to hand for the detail when I replied above, but you are spot on, that is exactly what Dave told me also. Also I am pretty sure given the other strange pattern that week that they also mixed up Alpert and Arnold and gave them the opposite chart positions as well.

I think the only consolation for The Stones is that RR did at least give them No 1's with It's All Over Now and Little Red Rooster whereas The Beatles flew straight to No 1 in all other three charts.

I'm currently compiling way ahead in August 66 guys to keep you supplied with charts on a daily basis so on that subject :

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 26th March 1966, for your perusal.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 26th 1966								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore - The Walker Brothers					1	1	1	1	1	19050
2	2	I Can't Let Go - The Hollies					2	2	2	2	2	18415
8	3	Shapes Of Things - The Yardbirds					3	4	3	3	3	17580
6	4	Make The World Go Away - Eddy Arnold					4	3	4	4	10	16835
10	5	Dedicated Follower Of Fashion - The Kinks					5	6	5	5	6	16225
3	6	Sha-La-La-La-Lee - The Small Faces					6	7	6	6	4	15845
4	7	Barbara Ann - The Beach Boys					7	5	7	7	5	15810
16	8	Elusive Butterfly - Bob Lind					8	7	9	9	8	14455
5	9	Backstage - Gene Pitney					9	9	8	8	9	14320
7	10	These Boots Are Made For Walkin' - Nancy Sinatra					10	10	10	10	12	13165
9	11	A Groovy Kind Of Love - The Mindbenders					11	13	11	11	7	12640
11	12	Lightning Strikes - Lou Christie					12	11	12	12	11	12350
17	13	What Now My Love - Sonny and Cher					13	14	13	13	13	11230
25	14	Elusive Butterfly - Val Doonican					14	12	14	14	18	10855
19	15	Hold Tight - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich					15	17	17	15	14	9345
29	16	Sound Of Silence/Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors*					18	16	15	18	20	9235
12	17	My Love - Petula Clark					17	19	16	16	16	8925
18	18	Substitute - The Who					16	17	18	17	15	8810
13	19	19th Nervous Breakdown - The Rolling Stones					19	23	19	20	17	6890
NEW	20	Somebody Help Me - The Spencer Davis Group					20	15	23	21	29	6370
15	21	Spanish Flea - Herb Alpert					21	25	20	23	19	5770
22	22	Woman - Peter and Gordon					22	22	21	22		5200
14	23	Inside Looking Out - The Animals					23	24	22	24	21	5200
NEW	24	Blue Turns To Grey - Cliff Richard					24	20	29	19		3900
24	25	May Each Day - Andy Williams					25	27	25	25	22	3665
21	26	You Were On My Mind - Crispian St Peters					27		24		25	2260
NEW	27	I Met A Girl - The Shadows					26	30	27	28	26	1925
20	28	Blue River - Elvis Presley					28	28	28	29	27	1890
28	29	You Don't Love Me - Gary Walker							26			1250
26	30	I Got You (I Feel Good) - James Brown						25				1200
		*Split sides on NME but not affecting average chart position
		Love Me With All Of Your Heart - The Bachelors*						21
		Second Hand Rose - Barbra Streisand					29				23	680
		Heartaches - Vince Hill						29			28	655
		This Golden Ring - The Fortunes					30				24	595
		Someday One Day - The Seekers								26		500
		Please Stay - The Cryin' Shames								27		400
		You Won't Be Leaving - Herman's Hermits							30			250
		Why Don't I Run Away - Kiki Dee								30		100
		Uptight - Stevie Wonder									30	85