The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

I'm really glad you are enjoying it membranemusic so thanks for your support and to all you guys who follow and post.

[membranemusic]

Mr Tibbs
This is great work - thanks for your efforts, and thanks also to the interesting and relevant comments from others.
Great!

[MrTibbs]

Here is a prime example of just how out of touch RR was with the other three charts. In order to ensure you guys always get at least one chart every day I work ahead of what I post. I'm currently on 19th February 1966 the infamous week RR denied the Rolling Stones the No 1 position with 19th Nervous Breakdown. Aside from that huge anomaly RR had 9, yes 9, records in their top thirty that were not placed on any of the other 3. A third of their chart. Each week each other chart will have a few, 3 maybe 4, different but here is RR with 9.
Furthermore so many other records chart positions on RR were way outside the parameters of the other 3.
Massive evidence their paltry store sample of 85 was insufficient.
Strangely though, Disc with only a fraction more of store samples than RR at 100 managed to produce a much more consistent chart that was in step with the others week on week.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

To add further controversy. Adding these weekly charts to my weekly lists from all the papers flags up another interesting point. NME can be just as inconsistent as RR. I never noticed this so obviously before but on some weeks NME is also as way out of the range as RR. Higher placings than the others and records leaving the chart before the others. Strangely MM in particular and Disc are week on week the most consistent. Any of you guys noticed this too ?

I haven't studied it in detail Brian, but I have occasionally noticed NME with some 'odd man out' positions relative to the other charts. They did count pre-orders as sales for the first week, and I think Disc did that too, but that would only account for first week disparities. I'll look more closely in the upcoming charts...

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Robin, Alan Smith wrote this on this site which does mean that Record Retailer was compiled different to the other charts:

Right Graham. RR compiled a day later than the other charts, but according to Alan their dealers still sampled over the same period Monday thru Saturday. Could it have been that some of the RR dealers reported their results for a Saturday thru Friday period, giving them an extra day to get their dealer chart into RR on time, not telling RR what they were doing? That would explain things, say if a small number of dealers did that, maybe 10% or so?

I sure wouldn't think RR would have accepted a too late dealer chart and used it for the following week, that would have thrown their results off even more, ha.

[MrTibbs]

To add further controversy. Adding these weekly charts to my weekly lists from all the papers flags up another interesting point. NME can be just as inconsistent as RR. I never noticed this so obviously before but on some weeks NME is also as way out of the range as RR. Higher placings than the others and records leaving the chart before the others. Strangely MM in particular and Disc are week on week the most consistent. Any of you guys noticed this too ?

[Graham76man]

Robin, Alan Smith wrote this on this site which does mean that Record Retailer was compiled different to the other charts:

From this list a rotating core of 75 to 85 shops would post in their top 50 sellers to “Record Retailer” who would pay part of the postal costs. This new system commenced at the start of 1964. Unfortunately it was still a chart based on a different day of compilation to it’s competitors (Tuesday as opposed to Monday for all others) and the chart still suffered from unusually low first week entries e.g. no Beatles single ever entered at no 1 in the “Record Retailer” compiled listings.

[Graham76man]

These snippets might add some light onto things:

1964 - Record Retailer increases its sample pool from 30 to 85 by using EMI and Decca's distribution lists. Melody Maker and NME are using around 150 and Disc is polling 100 outlets

1965 - The NME chart is suspected of 'hyping' charts when a member of their staff is found to be involved in manipulations resulting in Bob Dylan recordings enter their chart at much higher ratings than others
1967 - Saturday 26th August - The Disc and Music Echo ceases using its own charts and uses a chart combined with that of Melody Maker, using a sample pool of 280 outlets. NME are now using 200 and Record Retailer are still using 85.

[braindeadpj]

As several have pointed out already, it's amazing to see how RR lags the other charts. For the above chart, look at the big movers up, and the big movers down, a change of 6 or more ultimate points, and RR lags behind in every case, except for the split Yardbirds record. I trust Alan Smith when he says RR's sample period was Monday thru Saturday like all the other charts, but something was definitely amiss at RR...

Supposedly there was no overlap between the stores that the 4 different chart compilers used. While it doesn't seem likely, what if the stores that RR used had a delayed delivery schedule so that they didn't get their new stock until later in the week? This could explain why they underrepresent new releases and to some extent other tracks if they'd run out and didn't get replacement stock until later in the week. Alternatively perhaps they were smaller, less frequently visited stores in the RR panel and so they are not as up to date. Of course we can speculate until the cows come home but unless there is an historical record of which shops were used by RR and how they differ from those the other chart compilers used, we may never know why the RR chart lags behind the others.....

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

As several have pointed out already, it's amazing to see how RR lags the other charts. For the above chart, look at the big movers up, and the big movers down, a change of 6 or more ultimate points, and RR lags behind in every case, except for the split Yardbirds record. I trust Alan Smith when he says RR's sample period was Monday thru Saturday like all the other charts, but something was definitely amiss at RR...

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 23rd October 1965.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 23rd 1965								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Tears - Ken Dodd					1	1	1	1	1	19050
3	2	Almost There - Andy Williams					2	2	2	2	2	18415
2	3	If You Gotta Go, Go Now - Manfred Mann					3	3	4	3	3	17530
5	4	Eve Of Destruction - Barry McGuire					4	4	3	5	4	17295
4	5	Hang On Sloopy - The McCoys					5	5	5	4	5	16610
13	6	Evil Hearted You / Still I'm Sad - The Yardbirds					6	10	6	6	9	14820
14	7	It's Good News Week - Hedgehoppers Anonymous					8	7	8	8	10	14635
19	8	Yesterday Man - Chris Andrews					9	6	7	7	18	14505
6	9	Message Understood - Sandie Shaw					7	8	9	9	6	14425
10	10	Some Of Your Lovin' - Dusty Springfield					10	12	10	11	8	13005
20	11	Here It Comes Again - The Fortunes					11	9	12	10	17	12440
17	12	In The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett					12	14	14	13	12	11065
9	13	Baby Don't Go - Sonny and Cher					14	19	11	12	13	10830
8	14	Make It Easy On Yourself - The Walker Brothers					13	15	16	15	7	10590
11	15	Il Silenzio - Nini Rosso					15	18	13	16	11	10300
NEW	16	Yesterday - Matt Monro					16	11	15	14	26	10125
7	17	Look Through Any Window - The Hollies					17	17	18	17	14	8895
16	18	Whatcha Gonna Do About It - The Small Faces					18	16	17	18	19	8820
12	19	(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - The Rolling Stones					19	20	20	19	15	7510
15	20	A Walk In The Black Forest - Horst Jankowski					20	23	19	20	16	6975
NEW	21	Love Is Strange - The Everly Brothers					21	22	21	21		5300
24	22	Papa's Got A Brand New Bag - James Brown					23	21	27	26	25	4010
23	23	Zorba's Dance - Marcello Minerbi					22	30	22	24	21	4000
29	24	I Love You Yes I Do - The Merseybeats					24	26	25	22		3400
18	25	I Got You Babe - Sonny and Cher					25		23		20	2935
21	26	Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan					26	26	29	30	22	2365
NEW	27	Until It's Time For You To Go - The Four Pennies					27	24		23		2200
27	28	You've Got To Hide Your Love Away - The Silkie					30		24		28	2005
25	29	That Means A Lot - P J Proby						29	26	29		1850
22	30	That's The Way - The Honeycombs					29		28		23	1430
		Still I'm Sad - The Yardbirds						13
		Take A Heart - The Sorrows					28	30		25	24	1395
		But You're Mine - Sonny and Cher						25				1200
		I Know How It Feels To Be Loved - The Nashville Teens						28				600
		The Carnival Is Over - The Seekers								27		400
		Just A Little Bit Better - Herman's Hermits									27	340
		When I Get Home - The Searchers								28		300
		Shame And Scandal In The Family - Lance Percival							30			250
		Help - The Beatles									29	170
		Laugh At Me - Sonny									30	85

[MrTibbs]

There seemed to be no consistency. In October they split the Yardbirds yet in December they combined the Beatles double A sider. They probably knew the howls of protest that would come their way if the splitting prevented it reaching No 1.

[Graham76man]

On the couple of charts above the split sides did not affect the average chart position but in the next few weeks coming up the split did so I had to adapt to accommodate this so as not to disadvantage it's chart position.

NME doing this is always problematic when you start making a chart from the all. I'm glad you found a way around this.
On the 50's chart, it would have been easier if NME had listed the record shops like Record Mirror did. At least you can tell if it was the shops that were listing them. Or even if both sides were in the same shop's chart.

[MrTibbs]

On the couple of charts above the split sides did not affect the average chart position but in the next few weeks coming up the split did so I had to adapt to accommodate this so as not to disadvantage it's chart position.

[MrTibbs]

Yeah the other papers had stopped listing sides separately since the late fifties but NME continued with this system past the mid sixties. Doing this and including LP's distorted the chart and in my view diminished it's credibility. It was almost a throwback to the days of the sheet music chart which identified individual songs that were selling and not records.

[BobPatience]

Did NME separate sides, as with 'Evil Hearted You/Still I'm Sad' here?

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 16th October 1965.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending October 16th 1965								NME	MM	DISC	RR	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey				Stores	200	250	100	85	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Tears - Ken Dodd					1	1	1	1	1	19050
2	2	If You Gotta Go, Go Now - Manfred Mann					2=	3	2	2	3	18130
3	3	Almost There - Andy Williams					2=	2	3	3	2	18065
5	4	Hang On Sloopy - The McCoys					4	4	4	4	5	17060
4	5	Eve Of Destruction - Barry McGuire					5	5	5	5	4	16595
9	6	Message Understood - Sandie Shaw					6	6	6	6	9	15620
7	7	Look Through Any Window - The Hollies					8	8	8	8	7	14690
6	8	Make It Easy On Yourself - The Walker Brothers					7	7	10	7	6	14575
11	9	Baby Don't Go - Sonny and Cher					9	14	7	9	11	13300
15	10	Some Of Your Lovin' - Dusty Springfield					11	11	9	10	13	13130
10	11	Il Silenzio - Nini Rosso					10	12	11	11	8	12755
8	12	(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - The Rolling Stones					12	13	12	12	10	12035
23	13	Evil Hearted You / Still I'm Sad - The Yardbirds					14=	10	14	14	22	10915
20	14	It's Good News Week - Hedgehoppers Anonymous					16	9	17	15	21	10350
12	15	A Walk In The Black Forest - Horst Jankowski					13	19	13	13	12	10315
16	16	Whatcha Gonna Do About It - The Small Faces					14=	15	15	16	14	10145
19	17	In The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett					17	17	16	17	17	9140
13	18	I Got You Babe - Sonny and Cher					18	21	18	20	15	7710
NEW	19	Yesterday Man - Chris Andrews					20	16	20	18		7050
NEW	20	Here It Comes Again - The Fortunes					22	18	21	19	29	6470
14	21	Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan					19	23	23	21	16	5875
18	22	That's The Way - The Honeycombs					21	24	22	22	18	5655
17	23	Zorba's Dance - Marcello Minerbi					23	27	19	23	20	5535
24	24	Papa's Got A Brand New Bag - James Brown					24	22	26	25	26	4075
NEW	25	That Means A Lot - P J Proby					26	24	25	26		3400
22	26	Take A Heart - The Sorrows					25	28	28	24	25	2560
29	27	You've Got To Hide Your Love Away - The Silkie					28		24		28	2005
21	28	Just A Little Bit Better - Herman's Hermits					27		30	30	19	1370
NEW	29	I Love You Yes I Do - The Merseybeats					29=	26		28		1300
26	30	Universal Soldier (EP) - Donovan							27			1000
		Still I'm Sad - The Yardbirds						20
		She Needs Love - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders							29	27		900
		Help - The Beatles					29=				23	680
		Laugh At Me - Sonny									24	595
		Run To My Lovin' Arms - Billy Fury								29	27	540
		Yesterday - Matt Monro						29				400
		Home Of The Brave - Jody Miller						30				200
		Unchained Melody - The Righteous Brothers									30	85

[MrTibbs]

It may well be the case that MM placed Penny Lane on top as like Robin said they had by far the biggest store sample, but maybe a likelier reason is that MM was the only paper to also sample Northern Ireland so it could have been this factor that made the difference. I can say now with certainty that Penny Lane won't make No 1 on the Ultimate Averaged Chart as the 3 others all had Release Me at No 1.

[braindeadpj]

So unless NME, Disc & RR had different no.1s at the time, PL/SFF didn't make no.1 on the BBC chart and won't make no.1 on the Ultimate Averaged chart either.......

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Well, Penny Lane/Strawberry FF was #1 on Melody Maker for 3 weeks, alas peaking at #2 on NME, Disc, & RR. But MM sampled the most record shops...

[Graham76man]

A case of the older record buyer striking back.....

Same when Engelbert thwarted Penny Lane/ Strawberry Fields Forever a couple of years later....

That's not really true, unless you want to extols the virtues of the Record Retailer chart. The Beatles did make the top after allowing a week for Engelbert. Though he did go on to sell over 2 million copies. By 1967 Woolies was in charge of who was top and none of the other charts used them. The heartbroken female market insured Tears sold millions.

[Metalweb]

A case of the older record buyer striking back.....

Same when Engelbert thwarted Penny Lane/ Strawberry Fields Forever a couple of years later....

I've just realised (or remembered) that ABC quote Ken Dodd at the beginning of Tears Are Not Enough...

[MrTibbs]

Yip. Tears was and is the biggest selling single in 1965. Over 1.6 million. The Beatles and Seekers both sold over a million too with their December hits but Dodd still outsold them both. How it managed to do so is one of life's great mysteries.

[BobPatience]

According to the BBC, yes. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10201932

[Robbie]

^
Wasn't 'Tears' a million seller? Unless I'm getting 'Tears' mixed up with another song I think it may have been the biggest selling single of 1965, outselling anything even The Beatles released.