The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[ChartAfondicio]

I wonder what a U.S. ultimate averaged chart (based on the charts of Billboard, Cash Box and Record World) would have looked like. I figured going by December 30th 1967 would be the way to go . . . so without further adieu . . .

The Ultimate U.S. Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 30th 1967								BB	CB	RW
Last	This		The Sound Survey
Week	Week		The Top 40 Singles Chart				AVG		TOP	40
2	1	Hello Goodbye - The Beatles						1	1	1
1	2	Daydream Believer - The Monkees						3	2	2
4	3	I Second That Emotion - Smokey Robinson & The Miracles						4	6	3
6	4	Woman, Woman - The Union Gap						5	4	4
3	5	I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Gladys Knight & The Pips						2	3	11
12	6	Judy In Disguise - John Fred & His Playboy Band						6	8	6
9	7	Chain Of Fools - Aretha Franklin						7	5	8
11	8	Bend Me, Shape Me - The American Breed						8	7	5
7	9	Boogaloo Down Broadway - The Fantastic Johnny C						9	9	7
10	10	Skinny Legs And All - Joe Tex						10	11	10
8	11	You Better Sit Down Kids - Cher						12	12	9
5	12	The Rain, The Park And Other Things - The Cowsills						14	13	12
20	13	Snoopy's Christmas - The Royal Guardsmen							10	19
19	14	Honey Chile - Martha Reeves & The Vandellas						11	18	15
18	15	Summer Rain - Johnny Rivers						15	17	13
17	16	She's My Girl - The Turtles						20	15	16
24	17	Different Drum - Stone Poneys Featuring Linda Ronstadt						19	20	20
25	18	It's Wonderful - The Young Rascals						26	16	17
16	19	(The Lights Went Out In) Massachusetts - The Bee Gees						27	19	14
23	20	Next Plane To London - The Rose Garden						17	21	23
26	21	If I Could Build My Whole World Around You - Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell						18	22	21
15	22	Incense And Peppermints - Strawberry Alarm Clock						13	24	25
13	23	I Say A Little Prayer - Dionne Warwick						16	28	18
14	24	In And Out Of Love - Diana Ross And The Supremes						21	14	35
32	25	Susan - The Buckinghams						29	23	26
31	26	And Get Away - The Esquires						22	30	27
42	27	Green Tambourine - The Lemon Pipers						25	26	28
28	28	Wear Your Love Like Heaven - Donovan						23	29	31
36	29	Love Me Two Times - The Doors						38	27	24
35	30	The Other Man's Grass Is Always Greener - Petula Clark						31	31	37
56	31	Monterey - Eric Burdon And The Animals						32	25	42
46	32	Who Will Answer? - Ed Ames						36	33	32
21	33	Neon Rainbow - The Box Tops						24	44	34
39	34	I Can't Stand Myself (When You Touch Me) - James Brown						37	39	30
27	35	Beautiful People - Bobby Vee						57	32	22
22	36	Keep The Ball Rollin' - Jay And The Techniques						28	34	51
34	37	To Sir With Love - Lulu						39
30	38	Since You Showed Me How To Be Happy - Jackie Wilson						41	50	29
29	39	By The Time I Get To Phoenix - Glen Campbell						33	45	43
40	40	Come See About Me - Jr. Walker And The All Stars						30	40	52

For obvious reasons, I didn't do the full Top 100 average, just a sample of what a U.S. equivalent of a BBC averaged chart would have looked like (notice the over-40 positions on some of the entries on the left column). But you can see, even here there were wild variances. (And believe me, the last week's chart positions were also averaged.)

[Splodj]

Interesting to see.

Actually given the different mix of sales/airplay it is not as diverse as I'd have expected, with only 2 records not charting on all 3. The strangest of these here is 'Snoopy's Christmas' at 13 which never made the Billboard 100, yet topped their Best Bets For Christmas chart throughout December.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Great stuff, ChartAfondicio !! I'd buy a book of these charts, by decades. Albums too. Calling Joel Whitburn, ha...

[ChartAfondicio]

Interesting to see.

Actually given the different mix of sales/airplay it is not as diverse as I'd have expected, with only 2 records not charting on all 3. The strangest of these here is 'Snoopy's Christmas' at 13 which never made the Billboard 100, yet topped their Best Bets For Christmas chart throughout December.

I know, right? But then, those BBC "averaged" charts, on some positions, didn't have all the publications either. I was abiding by that principle.

[ChartAfondicio]

Great stuff, ChartAfondicio !! I'd buy a book of these charts, by decades. Albums too. Calling Joel Whitburn, ha...

You wouldn't believe all the time it took to cross-check all three publications' charts within two weeks to come up with that. You could also see why I stopped at 40 rather than go all the way to 100. I may do this with another date down the road if I get the mojo.

[setg1]

Interesting to see.

Actually given the different mix of sales/airplay it is not as diverse as I'd have expected, with only 2 records not charting on all 3. The strangest of these here is 'Snoopy's Christmas' at 13 which never made the Billboard 100, yet topped their Best Bets For Christmas chart throughout December.

Billboard excluded Christmas songs from the Hot 100 in some years, though they appear to have changed this policy many times. "Snoopy's Christmas" wasn't the only one, but definitely one of the highest-charting to have suffered from this. Again showing that the "official" chart (which Billboard is essentially recognized as) might not always be the best in all regards.

That wasn't the only policy in which the three magazines differed. Billboard always listed versions of the same song by different artists separately (as they should, in my opinion), but Cash Box combined them until September 1965. Record World only stopped combining them in 1970! One particularly interesting example is "Red Roses for a Blue Lady" in 1965 (an instrumental hit for Bert Kaempfert, with vocal versions by Vic Dana and Wayne Newton). All three charted separately in Billboard, Cash Box had the vocal versions combined at one chart position but a separate listing for the instrumental, and Record World combined all three.

Record World was the first to give one chart position for both sides of a single (inconsistently at first), Billboard followed suit a little later (during the chart run of Something / Come Together), but Cash Box still had them charting separately.

There were also other differences, with all three sometimes being out of sync with each other (an example being "Dancing Queen" at number one, which I mentioned earlier). It's hard to say which one I prefer, as Billboard for example was the best with competing versions but the worst at listing Christmas songs...

[Splodj]

Billboard excluded Christmas songs from the Hot 100 in some years

That explains it.

There is an a case for giving Cashbox the highest weighting because it surveyed more stores, but personally I would give Billboard highest weighting because of its 'market leader' status. Although despite it's failings there are periods when I prefer Cashbox. ChartAfondico - please could you reveal the weightings?

[braindeadpj]

That explains it.

There is an a case for giving Cashbox the highest weighting because it surveyed more stores, but personally I would give Billboard highest weighting because of its 'market leader' status. Although despite it's failings there are periods when I prefer Cashbox. ChartAfondico - please could you reveal the weightings?

I don't believe there is a weighting, ChartAfondicio just ranked the sum of the positions, so it is essentially the BBC Chart for America. For songs that don't have a position on a chart the average of the other 2 have been used, Positions below 40 have been used as is. Where the points are the same Billboard has been used to split. Can you confirm that that is the case ChartAfondicio?

[ChartAfondicio]

That explains it.

There is an a case for giving Cashbox the highest weighting because it surveyed more stores, but personally I would give Billboard highest weighting because of its 'market leader' status. Although despite it's failings there are periods when I prefer Cashbox. ChartAfondico - please could you reveal the weightings?

All mathematical averages based on the chart position of a song in each chart, then figuring out which goes where (in cases of ties, which of the lowest of the Billboard chart positions comes first). Points in this case haven't been figured in, otherwise there'd've been a column for that. Almost like figuring a Sudoku puzzle.

It also serves as a good exercise to keep one's brain in shape, that's for sure.

Just as, in the UK, NME was given more weight than the "Official" charts in certain corners, due to its storied history.

[Splodj]

Thanks for the explanations folks. Of course a Christmas chart is unusual in that there are no new or recent releases entering, and it would be interesting to see if they tended to enter higher on a particular chart. Looking at the fast climbers there is no chart that stands out consistently as 'fastest'.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

It'd also be interesting to do this 'ultimate' type of chart for a combo of the separate Billboard charts for Best Sellers, Disc Jockey plays, and Jukebox plays, as in prior to the 1955 combo chart that Billboard created, the Top 100, which preceded the Hot 100 by 3 years, though it was essentially the same thing just with a new title. Billboard's combo chart prior to the Top 100 was the Honor Roll of Hits chart, which combined record sales, sheet music sales, DJ plays and Jukebox plays.

[braindeadpj]

So for the BBC Chart, Elvis and Roulette are actually equal 5 on points. Did they choose to elevate Elvis as he was a new entry while Roulette is going down or did they miscount? They didn't separate the second Elvis track (going down) and the Everly Brothers (going up), or Lloyd Price (going up) and I've Waited So Long (going down). Perhaps because they were not in the top 10, though wasn't the rule primarily supposed to be for tthe 20th position to ensure it was a top 20 (and not a top 21)??

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 1st 1959

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 1st 1959								NME	MM	DISC	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey					75	35	45	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart				BBC			TOP	30	Scored
3	1	Living Doll - Cliff Richard					1	1	1	2	1	6405
1	2	Dream Lover - Bobby Darin					2	2	2	1	2	6280
2	3	The Battle Of New Orleans - Lonnie Donegan					3	3	3	3	3	6020
5	4	A Big Hunk O' Love - Elvis Presley					4	5	4	4	4	5730
4	5	A Teenager In Love - Marty Wilde					5	4	5	5	5	5665
8	6	Lipstick On Your Collar - Connie Francis					6	6	6	6	6	5375
6	7	Roulette - Russ Conway					7	7	7	7	7	5160
9	8	Personality - Anthony Newley					8	8	8	10	8	4855
7	9	Peter Gunn / Yep - Duane Eddy					9	9	9	8	9	4775
10	10	It's Late / Never Be Anyone Else But You - Ricky Nelson					10	10	11	11	10	4435
11	11	Goodbye Jimmy Goodbye - Ruby Murray					11	11	16	9	11	4215
23	12	Lonely Boy - Paul Anka					12	16	10	14	20	3285
13	13	Take A Message To Mary - The Everly Brothers					13=	21	13	13	14	3210
20	14	The Heart Of A Man - Frankie Vaughan					16	18	19	16	15	3030
27	15	Ragtime Cowboy Joe - The Chipmunks					15	14	17		12	2905
16	16	A Teenager In Love - Craig Douglas					19=	13		20	18	2625
15	17	I've Waited So Long - Anthony Newley					17=	25	18	12	19	2480
17	18	Three Stars - Ruby Wright					13=		12	15	13	2465
21	19	I Know - Perry Como					17=	19	15		16	2360
14	20	Personality - Lloyd Price					19=	20	14		17	2260
12	21	A Fool Such As I / I Need Your Love Tonight - Elvis Presley						23	20	17		1615
18	22	Side Saddle - Russ Conway						12				1425
19	23	May You Always - Joan Regan						15				1200
27	24	For A Penny - Pat Boone						24		18		1110
22	25	Please Don't Touch - Johnny Kidd and The Pirates								19		540
NEW	26	Midnight Shift - Buddy Holly						26				375
24	26	Why Should I Be Lonely - Tony Brent						26				375
RE	28	Petite Fleur - Chris Barber						28				225
NEW	29	Twixt Twelve And Twenty - Pat Boone						29				150
26	30	La Plume De Ma Tante - Hugo and Luigi						30				75
25		Waterloo - Stonewall Jackson
		Yep - Duane Eddy						17
		Poor Jenny - The Everly Brothers						22
		Never Be Anyone Else But You - Ricky Nelson						30

[MrTibbs]

Here is a strange one.

Since the chart run began NME have consistently placed Ruby Wright's Three Stars way way lower than all other three charts and not just by a few chart places but multiple places. We have seen a chart outlier on at least one chart most weeks but this one stands out as it is an outlier on NME week after week after week while the other three papers all have it consistently placed within a few places of each other.

This week is yet another perfect example as it is at least Top 15 in all other charts but not even in the NME Top 30.

There are anomalies and big anomalies and this falls into the latter category of a very strange NME chart history for this single.

[ChartAfondicio]

Once again, we attempt a U.S. "averaged" chart, this time dealing with Feb. 8, 1969 - the same week as the last one compiled by the BBC prior to the establishment of the "official" charts. The players may be different, but the same principle holds.

The Ultimate U.S. Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 8th 1969								BB	CB	RW
Last	This		The Sound Survey
Week	Week		The Top 40 Singles Chart				AVG		TOP	40
1	1	Crimson And Clover - Tommy James & The Shondells						1	2	1
2	2	Touch Me - The Doors						4	1	2
3	3	Everyday People - Sly & The Family Stone						2	3	3
4	4	Worst That Could Happen - Brooklyn Bridge						3	4	4
6	5	I Started A Joke - The Bee Gees						6	6	5
10	6	Build Me Up Buttercup - The Foundations						5	5	8
7	7	Can I Change My Mind - Tyrone Davis						10	7	6
13	8	You Showed Me - The Turtles						14	8	7
9	9	If I Can Dream - Elvis Presley						12	10	9
15	10	This Magic Moment - Jay & The Americans						13	9	12
5	11	I'm Gonna Make You Love Me - Diana Ross & The Supremes And The Temptations						8	13	14
16	12	Hang 'Em High - Booker T. & The MG's						9	16	13
24	13	I'm Livin' In Shame - Diana Ross & The Supremes						15	12	15
11	14	I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye						7	11	25
8	15	Hooked On A Feeling - B.J. Thomas						11	14	18
9	16	Soulful Strut - Young-Holt Unlimited						17	17	10
12	17	Son-Of-A Preacher Man - Dusty Springfield						18	15	11
21	18	I've Gotta Be Me - Sammy Davis, Jr.						19	18	17
24	19	Baby Baby Don't Cry - Smokey Robinson & The Miracles						21	19	19
29	20	Games People Play - Joe South						22	20	23
14	21	Going Up The Country - Canned Heat						16	26	21
26	22	Ramblin' Gamblin' Man - Bob Seger System						20	29	16
19	23	Cloud Nine - The Temptations							22	22
17	24	(There's Gonna Be A) Showdown - Archie Bell & The Drells						24	21	27
18	25	Stand By Your Man - Tammy Wynette						23	27	29
31	26	Goodnight My Love - Paul Anka						30	32	23
20	27	Wichita Lineman - Glen Campbell						29	23	35
23	28	California Soul - The 5th Dimension						25	24	39
36	29	Indian Giver - 1910 Fruitgum Co.						32	28	28
32	30	Take Care Of Your Homework - Johnnie Taylor						26	40	24
22	31	Lo Mucho Que Te Quiero (The More I Love You) - Rene & Rene						27	36
42	32	Proud Mary - Creedence Clearwater Revival						28	33	34
41	33	Crossroads - Cream						34	31	31
39	34	Sweet Cream Ladies, Forward March - The Box Tops						33	34	33
34	35	The Beginning Of My End - The Unifics						36	52	26
27	36	Too Weak To Fight - Clarence Carter						38
28	37	Hey Jude - Wilson Pickett						35	25	57
37	38	A Minute Of Your Time - Tom Jones						49	38	37
35	39	Soul Sister, Brown Sugar - Sam & Dave						41	44
40	40	Condition Red - The Goodees						46	39	43

I do encourage, for those so inclined, if one wants to start a thread of imagined "averaged" U.S. charts - which I'd recommend, in its timeline, to the start-up of Billboard's Hot 100 in August 1958 up to the 1969 period (or beyond, if the differing weeks ABBA's "Dancing Queen" was #1 are of any indication), to do so. Those who would know how to read "points" to compile such averages would likely be more "accurate"; my examples are mere rough thumbnail sketches.

[Splodj]

Since the chart run began NME have consistently placed Ruby Wright's Three Stars way way lower than all other three charts

Weeks in Top 20: NME 4, MM 9, Disc 8, RM 11

Peak: NME 19, MM 9, Disc 7, RM 8

(Mr Tibbs - Dream Lover has become by Cliff!)

[MrTibbs]

Weeks in Top 20: NME 4, MM 9, Disc 8, RM 11

Peak: NME 19, MM 9, Disc 7, RM 8

(Mr Tibbs - Dream Lover has become by Cliff!)

I've given it back to Bobby

[braindeadpj]

Once again, we attempt a U.S. "averaged" chart, this time dealing with Feb. 8, 1969 - the same week as the last one compiled by the BBC prior to the establishment of the "official" charts. The players may be different, but the same principle holds. [TABLE="width: 622"]

I make Going Up The Country - Canned Heat at 20 and Games People Play - Joe South at 21 rather than the other way round using either an averaging (or sum) of position.

When were recurrent rules introduced on the BB? Did either CB or RW also have recurrent rules and if so when were they introduced? The absence of the Temptations on the BB but 22 on both of the other charts will complicate any calculations using the top 100 of each chart (they were all top 100s right?). Was this a double A-side which BB combined but the others didn't? Is there any reason to exclude the lower half of each chart (such as recurrent rules or other reasons as to why there not a true picture - apart from the inclusion of airplay in the first place?). Do the charts also cover the same period of time? We have it on good authority that the UK do (though the outlier 'official' RR chart could be partly explained if it covered a different time frame such as Saturday to Friday).
We don't know anything (much?) about the number of stores and radio stations that contributed to the data do we? Of course that probably changes with time. This would be a mammoth undertaking, and we would have to agree on the 'rules' used before hand (or at least whoever compiles it would have to be clear in their calculations).

[MrTibbs]

Much as I enjoy taking a look at a similar averaged chart for the US which has the potential to be equally as interesting I don't feel that this is the thread to gain the full benefit from this new US chart input as it becomes confusing for guys following the UK UAC to have a another chart source being input alongside.

The US averaged chart most certainly warrants a thread to itself which I for one would certainly follow and enjoy too.

[ChartAfondicio]

Much as I enjoy taking a look at a similar averaged chart for the US which has the potential to be equally as interesting I don't feel that this is the thread to gain the full benefit from this new US chart input as it becomes confusing for guys following the UK UAC to have a another chart source being input alongside.

The US averaged chart most certainly warrants a thread to itself which I for one would certainly follow and enjoy too.

It's funny, that was what I too was recommending . . .

[braindeadpj]

Much as I enjoy taking a look at a similar averaged chart for the US which has the potential to be equally as interesting I don't feel that this is the thread to gain the full benefit from this new US chart input as it becomes confusing for guys following the UK UAC to have a another chart source being input alongside.

The US averaged chart most certainly warrants a thread to itself which I for one would certainly follow and enjoy too.

Yes, sorry about that, just thinking out loud about the problems inherent with a US averaged one based on the two already posted (that probably should be in their own thread you're right)...

[kingofskiffle]

If people wish I can move the posts to a new thread? I think I can do that fairly easily.

[MrTibbs]

If people wish I can move the posts to a new thread? I think I can do that fairly easily.

The US equivalent chart is a sound idea and has much potential if fine tuned to compliment the UK UAC and does warrant its own thread as a focus for interest. I really don't mind the postings here thus far I too enjoyed them,but don't want to see the thread going in two directions going forward

[ChartAfondicio]

If people wish I can move the posts to a new thread? I think I can do that fairly easily.

I actually created a new thread with the pertinent samples on the introductory post:

What If? - U.S. "Averaged" Charts

Whatever one does here with what was already contributed . . .

[kingofskiffle]

I shall leave as I had not seen the new thread at the time I made my comment.

[braindeadpj]

So on the August 1st chart, the BBC again appear to have a calculation error as I know by Perry Como is actually at 18 and not equal 17.

While RM is generally ahead of the curve it seems they're a little behind with Lonely Boy only at 20. Of course Disc is lagging behind both with the no.1 and Ragtime Cowboy Joe. Good agreement in the top 7 with three of the positions being identical across the charts and only 1 place out for some of the others.