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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • #26
    And yes Brian I did notice that the positions my calculations put them in are the same as in your chart!

    Comment


    • #27
      Originally posted by Splodj View Post
      When I try to recreate the BBC chart I get 6 records in different positions:

      11 Big Dee Irwin (46 points) BBC-13
      12 Adam Faith (47 points) BBC-11
      13 Manfred Mann (50 points) BBC-12

      16 Fourmost (67 points) BBC-17
      17 Merseybeats (71 points) BBC-18
      18 Presley (76 points) BBC-16

      This could have been caused by only two mistakes - demoting Irwin and promoting Presley.
      You have BBC chart positions right,

      https://www.mixcloud.com/peteseaton/...reeman-020264/

      Starts off with Manfred Mann at #12 & then Merseybeat at #18

      Comment


      • Splodj
        Splodj commented
        Editing a comment
        Great to hear.

        Whoever recorded it has skipped Dusty Springfield at number 7!

    • #28
      A couple more apparent mistakes in previous BBC charts ...

      - 18th January : Maria Elena got 73 points and should have tied at number 16 with Gerry and Brenda, not been at 18.

      - 25th January : The Beatles got 45 points and should have tied with Brenda at number 10, not tied with Billy at 13.

      Comment


      • #29
        Yeah the fact that the BBC made quite a few errors some already known some yet to be discovered like yours above was the initial driving force behind my goal to re-compile these charts but with the addition of store returns factored in to make them much more robust and balanced.
        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

        Comment


        • #30
          Important to bear in mind that the BBC presented their chart as a Top 20. On the recording above, Alan Freeman back announces 54321 at number 12 as a new entry, not a climber from 21.

          By calculating 21-30 they avoided the distortions in the Top 20 that would have occurred by allocating 21 points to the 'others'. The 'others' to which they allocated 31 points are almost always outside the 20.

          Comment


          • #31
            The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 8th 1964 BBC NME RM MM Disc RR
            Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
            Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
            1 1 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 1 1 1 1 1
            4 2 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 2 2 2 2 2
            2 3 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 3 3 3 3 3
            3 4 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 4 5 4 4 4
            10 5 As Usual - Brenda Lee 5 7 5 5 5
            5 6 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 6 8 6 6 6
            13 7 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann 7 6 8 7 9
            19 8 Diane - The Bachelors 8 4 11 8 8
            9 9 Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield 9 9 7 9 10
            6 10 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 10 10 9 11 7
            8 11 Stay - The Hollies 11 11 10 10 12
            7 12 I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 12 13 12 13 11
            17 13 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 13 12 13 12 15
            21 14 Baby I Love You - The Ronettes 14 16 14 14 13
            16 15 I'm In Love - The Fourmost 15 15 15 15 17
            12 16 We Are In Love - Adam Faith 16 21 17 17 18
            11 17 Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 17 23 16 18 16
            30 18 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 19 17 19 19 22
            15 19 Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury 18 22 18 20 14
            NEW 20 I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard 20 14 26 16 23
            26 21 For You - Rick Nelson 21 25 21 23 21
            22 22 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 22 24 23 21
            14 23 She Loves You - The Beatles 23 29 22 25 19
            25 24 Louie Louie - The Kingsmen 26= 18 27 26
            27 25 Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens 24= 20 28 20
            NEW 26 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 24= 18 22 28
            20 27 I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones 26= 27 24 27 24
            NEW 28 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 28 18 24
            18 29 Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley 29 28 25 25
            NEW 30 My Baby Left Me - Dave Berry 30= 26
            Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras 28
            You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers 29 30
            If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe 30= 26
            Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 30 29
            Boys Cry - Eden Kane 30 30
            Secret Love - Kathy Kirby 27
            Dominique - The Singing Nun 29
            Last edited by MrTibbs; Sat June 20, 2020, 00:51.
            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

            Comment


            • #32
              The big disadvantage as you probably already know with that system though Splodj was that by using the 21 points for a record outside a Top 20, and later 31 for outside the Top 30 this awarded equal points to all such records irregardless of what position they would have held outside the chart so this in effect let to fundamental inaccuracy.
              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

              Comment


              • #33
                The inverse method also gives the same score to those records - just that it is zero instead of 31. That is why I say there is no inherent difference between the two methods.

                But the point I was making is that the BBC avoided this distortion in any case by presenting to the public only the Top 20. The records for which they allocated 31 points were invariably in the 21-30 section which they calculated only for their private use.

                Comment


                • #34
                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 15th 1964 BBC NME RM MM Disc RR
                  Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
                  Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
                  1 1 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 1 1 1 1 1
                  2 2 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 2 2 2 2 2
                  8 3 Diane - The Bachelors 3 3 3 3 3
                  7 4 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann 4 4 4 4 5
                  3 5 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 5 5 5 5 4
                  5 6 As Usual - Brenda Lee 7 8 6 7 7
                  26 7 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 8 5 8 6 10
                  4 8 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 6 7 7 8 6
                  13 9 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 9 9 9 9 9
                  18 10 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 10 11 11 10 13
                  9 11 Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield 11 14 10 14 8
                  20 12 I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard 12 10 13 11 14
                  14 13 Baby I Love You - The Ronettes 13 13 12 12 12
                  6 14 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 14 12 15 13 11
                  10 15 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 15 16 14 15 15
                  11 16 Stay - The Hollies 17 18 17 16 19
                  28 17 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 16 15 20 17
                  15 18 I'm In Love - The Fourmost 18 19 16 20 18
                  21 19 For You - Rick Nelson 19 22 19 19 16
                  12 20 I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 20 23 18 21 17
                  17 21 Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 22 21 23 26 20
                  22 22 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 21 20 27 18
                  24 23 Louie Louie - The Kingsmen 23 16 28 22 26
                  16 24 We Are In Love - Adam Faith 24 25 21 23 25
                  19 25 Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury 25 28 22 24 22
                  NEW 26 Boys Cry - Eden Kane 26 26 25 25 24
                  25 27 Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens 27 24 28 23
                  23 28 She Loves You - The Beatles 28 26 29 21
                  NEW 29 Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 29 24 29 27
                  30 30 My Baby Left Me - Dave Berry 30= 27
                  Top Six No 1 (EP) - Various Artists 29
                  I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones 30= 27
                  Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley 30 30
                  Nadine - Chuck Berry 30 30
                  If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe 28
                  Um Um Um Um Um Um - Major Lance 30
                  Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras 29
                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                  Comment


                  • #35
                    In those last couple, there were tied scores not reflected by tied positions in the BBC chart.

                    - 8th Feb : 73 points apiece for Adam Faith and Irwin - implying joint 16th;

                    - 15th Feb : 28 points apiece for DC5 and Brenda Lee - implying joint 6th.

                    Either mistakes or the application of some type of tiebreaker methodology.

                    Comment


                    • #36
                      Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 8th 1964 BBC NME RM MM Disc RR
                      Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
                      Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
                      22 22 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Beatles 22 24 23 21
                      Brian: Small slip there!
                      trebor's - 2016 in Country Music
                      trebor's - 2015 in Country Music

                      Comment


                      • #37
                        Well spotted Trebor and thanks for picking up on that, somehow I missed that on the check . I've corrected it now .
                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                        Comment


                        • #38
                          The record I most remember being played on the radio at this time was the Harry Secombe one lurking around the bottom - a sort of Light Programme 'turntable hit'. I don't think the more raunchy records like Hippy Hippy Shake got much airplay.

                          The following month Radio Caroline would arrive and herald the start of radio playlists more directly related to the charts.

                          Comment


                          • #39
                            It has been a busy day for me today guys but will have another couple of charts on the thread tomorrow.
                            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                            Comment


                            • #40
                              Here is the next chart for February 22nd 1964.
                              When you look at the comparison table between Music Paper Chart positions you can really see how out of touch RR was in comparison to the other three charts. Yet again the BBC chart had a number of ties but these are successfully split by the factoring in of the number of music paper returns to give a much more robust and representative chart.
                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 22nd 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR
                              Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
                              Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
                              7 1 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 1 1 1 1 2
                              1 2 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 2 2 2 2 3
                              3 3 Diane - The Bachelors 3 3 3 3 1
                              2 4 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 4 4 4 4 4
                              4 5 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann 5 5 5 5 5
                              9 6 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 6 6 6 6 9
                              10 7 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 7= 8 7 7 11
                              6 8 As Usual - Brenda Lee 7= 9 8 9 7
                              5 9 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 9 10 9 8 6
                              12 10 I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard 10 11 10 11 8
                              NEW 11 Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five 12= 7 14 10 19
                              8 12 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 11 12 12 13 10
                              13 13 Baby I Love You - The Ronettes 12= 14 11 12 13
                              17 14 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 14 13 13 14
                              11 15 Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield 15 16 16 15 12
                              14 16 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 16 17 17 16 16
                              15 17 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 18 20 15 17 15
                              19 18 For You - Rick Nelson 17 17 18 18 14
                              22 19 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 19 15 20 19
                              26 20 Boys Cry - Eden Kane 20 22 19 20 18
                              18 21 I'm In Love - The Fourmost 21 27 21 21 20
                              16 22 Stay - The Hollies 23 25 22 23 21
                              23 23 Louie Louie - The Kingsmen 24= 19 26 22 29
                              NEW 24 Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield 22 21 25 24 30
                              20 25 I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 24= 23 25 17
                              29 26 Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 26 24 27 22
                              28 27 She Loves You - The Beatles 27 27 30 23
                              NEW 28 Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers 23
                              NEW 29 Top Six No 1 (EP) - Various Artists 24
                              NEW 30 Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby 30= 26 28
                              Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens 28 28 25
                              We Are In Love - Adam Faith 30= 30 24
                              Nadine - Chuck Berry 28 26 27
                              Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison 28 29
                              Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury 29 28
                              Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 30 26
                              You Were There - Heinz 29
                              Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun June 21, 2020, 18:52.
                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                              Comment


                              • #41
                                I can't help wondering if RR used some returns from the previous week. New Entries appear lower and climb more slowly. If the low number of returns was the only reason for RRs outlier positions you would expect some records to rise faster and others slower - not all slower.

                                The BBC should have realised that the only reason for their ties at 7 and 12 was the significant drag effect of RR (placing the upcoming record 4 and 7 places lower respectively) and untied accordingly.

                                Comment


                                • #42
                                  Loving this thread Brian! Excellent work!! :-)

                                  Comment


                                  • #43
                                    Thanks for your feedback guys. Yeah seeing all the charts side by side really shows up variations between them and thus far the RR inadequacies are displayed and laid bare.
                                    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                    Comment


                                    • #44
                                      Here is the chart for February 29th 1964 guys.

                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 29th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR
                                      Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
                                      Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
                                      1 1 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 1 1 1 1 1
                                      3 2 Diane - The Bachelors 2 2 2 2 2
                                      11 3 Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five 3 3 3 3 4
                                      6 4 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 4 5 4 4 5
                                      2 5 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 5 4 5 6 3
                                      4 6 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 6 6 7 5 6
                                      7 7 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 8 8 6 8 8
                                      5 8 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann 7 7 8 7 7
                                      8 9 As Usual - Brenda Lee 9 9 9 10 9
                                      10 10 I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard 10 10 10 9 10
                                      9 11 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 11 12 11 12 12
                                      13 12 Baby I Love You - The Ronettes 12 17 13 15 11
                                      20 13 Boys Cry - Eden Kane 13 16 14 14 13
                                      14 14 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 14 21 12 11
                                      28 15 Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers 15 13 15 16 20
                                      18 16 For You - Rick Nelson 16 15 18 20 16
                                      24 17 Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield 18 14 19 21 18
                                      NEW 18 Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones 19 10 22 13 29
                                      12 19 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 17 22 16 19 14
                                      19 20 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 20 18 23 18
                                      15 21 Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield 21 29 17 25 15
                                      17 22 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 22 24 20 26 17
                                      30 23 Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby 24 18 26 23 24
                                      16 24 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 25 26 21 27 19
                                      NEW 25 Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison 23 23 29 17 21
                                      NEW 26 I Love You Because - Jim Reeves 26 20 28 22 26
                                      26 27 Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 27 24 24 22
                                      21 28 I'm In Love - The Fourmost 28 25 23
                                      NEW 29 Nadine - Chuck Berry 29 29 27 30 27
                                      NEW 30 You Were There - Heinz 30= 25
                                      Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas 30= 27 29
                                      Louie Louie - The Kingsmen 29 30 30
                                      That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney 28
                                      I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 30= 25
                                      Just One Look - The Hollies 28
                                      She Loves You - The Beatles 28
                                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                      Comment


                                      • #45
                                        Brian,

                                        On the BBC 22-Feb chart you don't have equals signs for the two 24s, and the entries thereabouts might be worth checking as I make them:

                                        22 Hollies (91 points)
                                        23= Kingsmen (96 points)
                                        23= Dusty 'I only...' (96 points)
                                        25 Dusty 'Stay awhile' (100 points)

                                        I would like to think they did promote Dusty's new entry - to resist the RR drag effect!

                                        Also that week the Swinging Blue Jeans score the same 33 points as the Tremeloes and Brenda Lee implying all three tie at number 7.

                                        On BBC 29-Feb chart, Searchers and Merseybeats score the same 18 points implying they tie at number 4.

                                        Once again difficult to know if their placings were deliberate or in error.
                                        Last edited by Splodj; Sun June 21, 2020, 17:34.

                                        Comment


                                        • #46
                                          Splodj I am happy to confirm both were equal 24 as I posted so it is accurate I just obviously missed out the = which are now added.
                                          Remember though you seem to be just using inverse points for your calculations I am factoring in points for the record store returns as well which does change things a bit.
                                          I am using Inverse Points for each chart, 30 points for No 1 down to 1 point for No 30 for each chart then multiplying those points by each music paper's store returns to get a score. 250 for MM, 200 for NME, 100 for Disc, and 85 for RR. So that is why you are getting a different result.
                                          Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun June 21, 2020, 18:53.
                                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                          Comment


                                          • #47
                                            Sorry, I should have been clearer that the 22-25 positions I calculated were for the BBC chart. When I saw that you had not put in the equals signs for two of them I thought there might be a connection between that omission and their strange positions - but it transpires there wasn't.

                                            Comment


                                            • #48
                                              It was a good pick up that you made though Splodj. On my copy of the BBC Chart it had both No 24's listed but no = sign so it didn't click in my head when I was typing them in. Hope you are enjoying the Ultimate Averaged chart a step beyond the BBC one.
                                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                              Comment


                                              • #49
                                                Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 7th March 1964.

                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending March 7th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR
                                                Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
                                                Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
                                                1 1 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 1 1 1 1 1
                                                3 2 Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five 2 2 2 2 2
                                                2 3 Diane - The Bachelors 3 3 3 3 3
                                                4 4 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 4 4 4 4 5
                                                5 5 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 5 5 6 6 4
                                                18 6 Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones 6 5 5 7 11
                                                7 7 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 7 9 7 8 6
                                                NEW 8 Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas 8 7 10 5 9
                                                6 9 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 9 8 9 11 7
                                                13 10 Boys Cry - Eden Kane 10 10 8 9 12
                                                8 11 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann 11 11 12 12 8
                                                15 12 Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers 12 12 11 10 13
                                                10 13 I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard 13= 14 13 13 14
                                                9 14 As Usual - Brenda Lee 13= 15 14 15 10
                                                17 15 Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield 15 13 15 16 16
                                                14 16 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 16 22 16 14
                                                NEW 17 Just One Look - The Hollies 17= 16 23 17 20
                                                12 18 Baby I Love You - The Ronettes 17= 25 17 19 15
                                                25 19 Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison 19 21 19 21 17
                                                26 20 I Love You Because - Jim Reeves 21 18 21 23 21
                                                23 21 Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby 20 19 24 20 18
                                                20 22 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 22 20 22 24
                                                16 23 For You - Rick Nelson 23 24 20 26 19
                                                11 24 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 24= 27 18 22 23
                                                NEW 25 That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney 24= 17 27 18 28
                                                22 26 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 27 28 25 29 25
                                                NEW 27 Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows 26 23 25
                                                21 28 Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield 30 30 26 26
                                                27 29 Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 28 29 27 22
                                                19 30 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 29 28 28 24
                                                You Were There - Heinz 26 29
                                                Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 30 27
                                                King Of Kings - Ezz Reco and The Launchers 29
                                                Tell Me When - The Applejacks 30
                                                Nadine - Chuck Berry 30
                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                                Comment


                                                • #50
                                                  In a Radio 2 documentary 'Carry on up the charts' in 2000, Paul Gambaccini says this:

                                                  “All the pop papers in Britain had their own charts, and competed with claims about which was the true one. New Musical Express was probably the single most important one, although it famously had shall we say some very strange entries in the bottom positions. It was pretty well known that a record could be massaged into the upper twenties of the top 30. And Record Retailer, which was the forerunner of Music Week, was the source that we used for the Guinness Book of British Hit Singles, and it happened to have ‘Please Please Me’ as a number 2. And the BBC used an average of the charts - I would love to have been the mathematician who figured that one out! So if you read the pop papers you would have thought ‘Please Please Me’ was number one, but if you read the Trades and listened to the radio you would have thought it was number two.”

                                                  By talking about the Trades he implies that there was more than one trade paper. And he is simply wrong to say that it was number two on the radio.
                                                  Last edited by Splodj; Mon June 22, 2020, 00:36.

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