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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I think all of us who were a 'child of the sixties' are engrossed in the mystery of the charts back then. As a ten year old in 1964 I took the BBC charts as gospel because I saw them on TOTP, yet I bought the NME and just accepted they had their own chart too as with MM whose chart I saw in the daily newspapers.
    It was only as I got older I began to question why they all differed slightly and this puzzled me.

    We will never know the true weekly sales figures from that era, they are gone forever, the best we have now is believing in each chart as being representative of the time in its own way and by further combining them into one average chart brings them all together under one umbrella yet still acknowledges each as an individual participant.

    That is what I'm striving to achieve here, compiling that average chart and finding the centre ground yet also displaying each papers proud place in its formulation. The 'chart of charts' .

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Ha, we've had this conversation before, Robbie. Someone else had logged into Dave's account at either Popscene or Buzzjack, and was making edits to Dave's earlier posts. Maybe 2 years ago?

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    Originally posted by RokinRobinOfLocksley View Post
    I asked Alan Smith about the different chart sampling periods, and Alan was Adam Adamant in firmly stating that all charts used a Monday thru Saturday period. They compiled their average chart results on different days though, thus the main reason why various charts couldn't get their data into the BBC on time, and if they were late they weren't included in the average. Alan of course talked to all the chart compilers and got this info right from the horses' mouths.

    On the other hand, I seem to recall Dave Taylor saying the sampling periods may have been different. Another chap Brian Hankin posted on the Haven forum in 2011 that MM, Disc, and (RR after July 1967) all used Monday thru Saturday, but NME, RM, and early RR were all different from that, and different from each other, and that there were thus 4 different sampling periods used among the 5 charts !!

    When I asked Alan (a year ago) about what Brian had posted, Alan said "it's all codswallop. All chart compilers used Monday to Saturday sales period in that order!"
    There was some belief among a handful of posters at Haven that Brian Hankin may have been Dave Taylor*. At the very least the two knew each other and Brian once posted information provided by Dave because Dave (for some reason) didn't want to sign up for Haven.

    *Brian Hankin was last seen at Haven on 14 January 2020 (while logged in) though his last post was on 20 May 2013. As Dave died in 2014 it would suggest they were different posters but that Brian was simply posting on Dave's behalf at Haven.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    Monday to Saturday makes sense from a compilation of chart perspective. You print on, day, Thursday for delivery to shops on Friday so your issue is ready Wednesday. That means you need the chart Wednesday. Assume a day to compile so that means you need the data on Monday. No Sunday shops at that point so the last sale would be Saturday.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I asked Alan Smith about the different chart sampling periods, and Alan was Adam Adamant in firmly stating that all charts used a Monday thru Saturday period. They compiled their average chart results on different days though, thus the main reason why various charts couldn't get their data into the BBC on time, and if they were late they weren't included in the average. Alan of course talked to all the chart compilers and got this info right from the horses' mouths.

    On the other hand, I seem to recall Dave Taylor saying the sampling periods may have been different. Another chap Brian Hankin posted on the Haven forum in 2011 that MM, Disc, and (RR after July 1967) all used Monday thru Saturday, but NME, RM, and early RR were all different from that, and different from each other, and that there were thus 4 different sampling periods used among the 5 charts !!

    When I asked Alan (a year ago) about what Brian had posted, Alan said "it's all codswallop. All chart compilers used Monday to Saturday sales period in that order!"

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I'm really pleased you and so many others guys enjoy it Robbie. I'm defo enjoying compiling it. Aside from compiling what I believe to be the most accurate chart reflecting the time I'm also enjoying for the first time anywhere, I think, seeing all the charts lined up side by side giving a complete historical picture.
    Thanks too MyFriendJack, yeah the RR lost out on 2 counts, yes their compilation day differed from the others and it also had the smallest sample of shop returns to work with. But by averaging out we definitely get a more smoothed out chart which removes individual inconsistencies.

    The article in The Sun from 1964 is really interesting but I do believe it to be erroneous in specifying the number of chart returns used by MM and NME. Alan Smith's exhaustive research over a number of years I think gives the most accurate outcome regarding stores sampled at this time, putting MM on around 250 and NME on around 200. That's what I am using for calculation with Disc on 100 and RR on 85.

    Leave a comment:


  • MyFriendJack
    replied
    Just been reading through this fascinating thread, really good stuff. Just one thought on the fact that the RR charts always seemed out of step with the others. I seem to recall reading (many years ago) that this was partly a result of RR using a slightly different seven day window. If RR asked dealers to submit their returns based on sales over Saturday to Friday, that would inevitably lead to a different result than would arise from using Monday to Saturday. Unfortunately I can't elsewhere I read this, but I am hoping that by posting this, I might trigger someone else's memory.
    ​​

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    The NME had a joint number 2 for Gene Pitney and The Rolling Stones on 12 December 1964? Other than the joint number 2 on the NME chart, all the papers were in agreement with the entire top 5.

    Thanks for continuing to compile the Ultimate Averaged Chart MrTibbs!

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 12th December 1964.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 12th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week Title and Artist Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    1 1 I Feel Fine - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 19050
    3 2 I'm Gonna Be Strong - Gene Pitney 2 2 2 2 2 18415
    2 3 Little Red Rooster - The Rolling Stones 3 2 3 3 3 17980
    4 4 Downtown - Petula Clark 4 4 4 4 4 17145
    9 5 Walk Tall - Val Doonican 5 5 5 5 5 16510
    11 6 Pretty Paper - Roy Orbison 6 6 6 8 9 15420
    5 7 Baby Love - The Supremes 8 8 7 6 8 15055
    6 8 All Day And All Of The Night - The Kinks 7 7 8 7 7 14990
    16 9 I Understand - Freddie and The Dreamers 9 9 9 9 12 13715
    10 10 There's A Heartache Following Me - Jim Reeves 10 14 11 10 6 12625
    8 11 Um Um Um Um Um Um - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders 11 12 13 12 10 11985
    18 12 A Message To Martha - Adam Faith 12 11 12 14 14 11895
    12 13 Losing You - Dusty Springfield 13 17 14 11 11 10750
    7 14 He's In Town - The Rockin' Berries 14 22 10 13 13 10380
    27 15 No Arms Can Ever Hold You - The Bachelors 15 14 15 15 16 10275
    28 16 I Could Easily Fall - Cliff Richard 16 10 18 17 20 9785
    13 17 Don't Bring Me Down - The Pretty Things 17 18 16 16 17 9040
    20 18 Walk Away - Matt Monro 19 24 17 21 18 7005
    24 19 Terry - Twinkle 20 20 21 18 24 6595
    15 20 Tokyo Melody - Helmut Zacharias 18 27 19 19 15 6360
    30 21 Genie With The Light Brown Lamp - The Shadows 21= 19 24 24 22 5615
    NEW 22 Blue Christmas - Elvis Presley 23 16 26 22 26 5575
    22 23 Show Me Girl - Herman's Hermits 21= 23 22 25 19 5470
    NEW 24 Somewhere - P J Proby 24 13 28 23 30 5235
    21 25 Black Girl - The Four Pennies 25 26 20 29 21 4800
    14 26 Sha La La - Manfred Mann 26 23 20 23 3780
    NEW 27 What Have They Done To The Rain - The Searchers 29 21 27 2340
    17 28 Oh Pretty Woman - Roy Orbison 30 25 27 28 2155
    NEW 29 Girl Don't Come - Sandie Shaw 24 30 30 1750
    23 30 The Wedding - Julie Rogers 27 27 25 1510
    Beatles For Sale (LP) - The Beatles 28 28 26 1100
    Remember (Walking In The Sand) - The Shangri-Las 29 29 670
    Yeh Yeh - Georgie Fame and The Blue Flames 29 400
    Ringo - Lorne Green 28 300
    Baby I Need Your Loving - The Fourmost 30 200
    Cast Your Fate To The Wind - Sounds Orchestral 30 200

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The one for 28th November Graham

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Nope, thus far Robin just used once in 1964 for Can't Buy Me Love, and boy it was so worth it for that single lol

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Which of Brian's charts represents the same week as the Sun paper's chart?

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Another case where the BBC invoked their #1 rule, but Brian didn't have to...

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 5th December 1964.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending December 5th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week Title and Artist Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    NEW 1 I Feel Fine - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 6 18625
    2 2 Little Red Rooster - The Rolling Stones 2 2 2 2 1 18500
    5 3 I'm Gonna Be Strong - Gene Pitney 3 3 3 3 2 17865
    8 4 Downtown - Petula Clark 4 4 4 4 4 17145
    1 5 Baby Love - The Supremes 5 6 5 6 3 16380
    3 6 All Day And All Of The Night - The Kinks 6 5 6 5 5 16260
    4 7 He's In Town - The Rockin' Berries 7 7 7 7 10 14985
    6 8 Um Um Um Um Um Um - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders 8 8 10 8 7 14190
    17 9 Walk Tall - Val Doonican 9 9 9 9 11 13800
    7 10 There's A Heartache Following Me - Jim Reeves 10 12 8 10 8 13605
    18 11 Pretty Paper - Roy Orbison 11 10 12 11 12 12565
    10 12 Losing You - Dusty Springfield 12 13 11 12 9 12370
    13 13 Don't Bring Me Down - The Pretty Things 13 11 14 13 13 11580
    9 14 Sha La La - Manfred Mann 14 16 13 16 14 10445
    14 15 Tokyo Melody - Helmut Zacharias 15 17 15 14 15 9860
    24 16 I Understand - Freddie and The Dreamers 16 15 16 15 17 9740
    11 17 Oh Pretty Woman - Roy Orbison 17 20 17 18 16 8275
    28 18 A Message To Martha - Adam Faith 18 14 19 21 21 8250
    12 19 Remember (Walking In The Sand) - The Shangri-Las 20 18 20 17 23 7430
    15 20 Walk Away - Matt Monro 19 22 18 19 18 7355
    21 21 Black Girl - The Four Pennies 21 18 21 23 20 6835
    23 22 Show Me Girl - Herman's Hermits 22 24 22 20 19 5770
    19 23 The Wedding - Julie Rogers 23 27 23 24 22 4265
    NEW 24 Terry - Twinkle 26 25 24 26 30 3535
    20 25 Google Eye - The Nashville Teens 25 29 25 25 25 3010
    16 26 (There's) Always Something There To Remind Me - Sandie Shaw 24 27 22 24 2495
    NEW 27 No Arms Can Ever Hold You - The Bachelors 27 23 30 27 2250
    NEW 28 I Could Easily Fall - Cliff Richard 28 21 29 2200
    29 29 When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) - The Beach Boys 29 26 27 1590
    NEW 30 Genie With The Light Brown Lamp - The Shadows 26 1000
    Ain't That Loving You Baby - Elvis Presley 29 26 925
    Dancing In The Street - Martha and The Vandellas 30 28 28 855
    How Soon - Henry Mancini 28 750
    So Deep Is The Night - Ken Dodd 28 300
    Gone Gone Gone - The Everly Brothers 30 200
    Blue Christmas - Elvis Presley 30 200
    The Twelfth Of Never - Cliff Richard 29 170
    Ringo - Lorne Green 30 100

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 28th November 1964.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 28th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week Title and Artist Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    1 1 Baby Love - The Supremes 1 2 1 2 1 18750
    15 2 Little Red Rooster - The Rolling Stones 2 1 3 1 3 18380
    2 3 All Day And All Of The Night - The Kinks 3 3 2 3 2 18115
    4 4 He's In Town - The Rockin' Berries 4 5 4 5 4 16845
    11 5 I'm Gonna Be Strong - Gene Pitney 5 4 6 4 6 16475
    3 6 Um Um Um Um Um Um - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders 6 6 5 6 5 16210
    12 7 There's A Heartache Following Me - Jim Reeves 7 9 7 9 7 14640
    20 8 Downtown - Petula Clark 8 7 11 7 9 14070
    5 9 Sha La La - Manfred Mann 9 11 8 8 11 13750
    16 10 Losing You - Dusty Springfield 10 10 10 10 10 13335
    6 11 Oh Pretty Woman - Roy Orbison 11 12 12 11 8 12505
    9 12 Remember (Walking In The Sand) - The Shangri-Las 13 14 9 12 15 12160
    13 13 Don't Bring Me Down - The Pretty Things 12 8 15 13 13 11930
    8 14 Tokyo Melody - Helmut Zacharias 14 13 13 14 12 11415
    10 15 Walk Away - Matt Monro 15 17 14 15 14 10095
    7 16 (There's) Always Something There To Remind Me - Sandie Shaw 16 18 16 16 16 9125
    23 17 Walk Tall - Val Doonican 17 16 18 17 17 8840
    26 18 Pretty Paper - Roy Orbison 18 15 20 18 19 8270
    14 19 The Wedding - Julie Rogers 19 20 17 21 18 7805
    17 20 Google Eye - The Nashville Teens 20 22 19 19 21 6850
    24 21 Black Girl - The Four Pennies 21 19 21 23 20 6635
    21 22 Ain't That Loving You Baby - Elvis Presley 22= 24 23 25 22 4765
    NEW 23 Show Me Girl - Herman's Hermits 22= 21 28 20 25 4360
    28 24 I Understand - Freddie and The Dreamers 24 23 26 22 26 4175
    18 25 When You Walk In The Room - The Searchers 25 22 26 24 3345
    19 26 The Twelfth Of Never - Cliff Richard 26 25 23 2180
    22 27 How Soon - Henry Mancini 28 24 28 2005
    NEW 28 A Message To Martha - Adam Faith 27 25 24 1900
    NEW 29 When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) - The Beach Boys 29 28 30 28 1150
    25 30 One Way Love - Cliff Bennett and The Rebel Rousers 27 1000
    March Of The Mods - Joe Loss 30 26 1000
    Dancing In The Street - Martha and The Vandellas 27 30 885
    Goldfinger - Shirley Bassey 29 29 670
    Terry - Twinkle 29 30 500
    Christmas Will Be Just Another Lonely Day - Brenda Lee 27 400
    Where Did Our Love Go - The Supremes 27 340
    The Wild Side Of Life - Tommy Quickly 30 200
    So Deep Is The Night - Ken Dodd 29 200

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart Top 30 for Week Ending 21st November 1964.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending November 21st 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Total
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Points
    Week Week Title and Artist Number Of Chart Positions 30 Scored
    1 1 Baby Love - The Supremes 1 2 1 1 1 18850
    6 2 All Day And All Of The Night - The Kinks 2 3 3 2 2 17965
    5 3 Um Um Um Um Um Um - Wayne Fontana and The Mindbenders 4 4 2 5 6 17375
    7 4 He's In Town - The Rockin' Berries 3 4 5 3 3 17080
    4 5 Sha La La - Manfred Mann 5 7 4 4 5 16460
    2 6 Oh Pretty Woman - Roy Orbison 6 8 6 6 4 15645
    3 7 (There's) Always Something There To Remind Me - Sandie Shaw 7 15 7 8 7 13540
    10 8 Tokyo Melody - Helmut Zacharias 8 12 11 7 9 13070
    13 9 Remember (Walking In The Sand) - The Shangri Las 10 10 10 13 14 12695
    8 10 Walk Away - Matt Monro 9 16 9 10 8 12555
    24 11 I'm Gonna Be Strong - Gene Pitney 12= 6 17 11 16 11775
    18 12 There's A Heartache Following Me - Jim Reeves 11 13 13 12 11 11700
    15 13 Don't Bring Me Down - The Pretty Things 12= 9 15 16 10 11685
    9 14 The Wedding - Julie Rogers 14 19 8 15 12 11365
    NEW 15 Little Red Rooster - The Rolling Stones 15 1 21 9 24 11295
    20 16 Losing You - Dusty Springfield 16 11 14 14 17 11140
    11 17 Google Eye - The Nashville Teens 17 17 12 17 13 10480
    12 18 When You Walk In The Room - The Searchers 18 24 18 20 15 7110
    14 19 The Twelfth Of Never - Cliff Richard 20 21 19 21 18 7105
    28 20 Downtown - Petula Clark 19 13 26 18 20 7085
    16 21 Ain't That Loving You Baby - Elvis Presley 21 26 16 19 19 6970
    17 22 How Soon - Henry Mancini 22 25 20 25 21 5400
    25 23 Walk Tall - Val Doonican 23 22 24 23 23 5030
    NEW 24 Black Girl - The Four Pennies 24 20 27 24 27 4240
    19 25 One Way Love - Cliff Bennett and The Rebel Rousers 25 22 26 22 3515
    NEW 26 Pretty Paper - Roy Orbison 26 18 22 3500
    22 27 Where Did Our Love Go - The Supremes 27 23 29 25 2710
    27 28 I Understand - Freddie and The Dreamers 28 23 29 28 29 2570
    21 29 We're Through - The Hollies 29 25 26 1925
    23 30 Goldfinger - Shirley Bassey 30 27 28 28 1805
    The Wild Side Of Life - Tommy Quickly 28 600
    Show Me Girl - Herman's Hermits 30 27 600
    When I Grow Up (To Be A Man) - The Beach Boys 29 400
    I Won 't Forget You - Jim Reeves 30 250
    Now We're Through - The Poets 30 100
    I Wouldn't Trade You For The World - The Bachelors 30 85

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Great Stuff ! I have been working today guys hence my late posting of the next 2 charts. Here they are now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    "Melody Maker estimates to get 100 returns from a list of 300 shops." If MM told that to The Sun then I doubt their sample size was more than 100 at this time, as they would not be underestimating it.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I again find it fascinating that averaging individual record dealer charts together (point wise or inverse point wise) produces a music paper chart (NME, MM, Disc, RR) that is very, very close to actual sales. Proved earlier by Michael Cable's book, and again here. Groovy fab !!

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    I did a quick calculation of the sales figures of the Rolling Stones. If 71 shops sold 3,954 of that, it would average them out at around 55 records per week in each of the 71 shops. If you put that average of 55 across 4,000 shops. Which was not an unreasonably number of shops at that time. The stones shifted 220,000 copies!
    It certainly makes the headline 800,000 seem like chicken feed

    I just saw the end page 8,000 shops!
    The stones 440,000 copies!

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham76man
    replied
    Robbie - Probably to stop shops fiddling the charts. But they did that anyway, scanning records more than once! Another thing could be to eliminate distribution error patterns and none reporting of sales due to technical issues.

    Leave a comment:


  • Robbie
    replied
    ^
    thanks for the uploads. Not a single malware warning!

    I'm curious about why 250 shops were chosen to obtain sales figures for 'Little Red Rooster' by The Rolling Stones (even if in the end only 71 shops did actually supply sales figures). The 250 shops figure would become the chart sample size standard once BMRB begin to compile the charts in February 1969 as that was the size of the chart panel (or at least what it was intended to be, 250 shops sampled out of a chart panel of 300 shops). And even as late as 1996, when the size of the chart panel had grown to the thousands (4,000+ by late 1996 just prior to DUS replacing the chart panel method of chart compilation) sales were still distilled down to that mythical 250 shop panel.

    Leave a comment:


  • membranemusic
    replied
    Hello
    OK here goes. Ignore any malware warnings.
    Here are the links to chart articles on pdf-archive.com
    https://www.pdf-archive.com/2020/07/...arts-28-11-64/
    https://www.pdf-archive.com/2020/07/...ysis-28-11-64/
    the latter being my excel analysis. I look forward to your comments. Mrtibbs is nearly there with the chart date. Enjoy.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Ultimate chart has only thrown up 5 tied positions in the whole of 1964 and all of them at the bottom end of the chart. As mentioned in the introduction, and agreeing with what you mentioned above Robin I split these by using the MM as having the largest sample of stores.

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    I have no problem with ties, if that's what the calculation method produced. Better to have a tie than to force a tie-breaker based on bad muddy logic, i.e., looking at the previous week's chart, as in Record Retailer, very bogus. NME could have broken their ties by looking at which record charted higher at the largest selling record shops they sampled, should have been an easy thing to put in place.

    Leave a comment:

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