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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Sorry, I should have been clearer that the 22-25 positions I calculated were for the BBC chart. When I saw that you had not put in the equals signs for two of them I thought there might be a connection between that omission and their strange positions - but it transpires there wasn't.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Splodj I am happy to confirm both were equal 24 as I posted so it is accurate I just obviously missed out the = which are now added.
    Remember though you seem to be just using inverse points for your calculations I am factoring in points for the record store returns as well which does change things a bit.
    I am using Inverse Points for each chart, 30 points for No 1 down to 1 point for No 30 for each chart then multiplying those points by each music paper's store returns to get a score. 250 for MM, 200 for NME, 100 for Disc, and 85 for RR. So that is why you are getting a different result.
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun June 21, 2020, 16:53.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Brian,

    On the BBC 22-Feb chart you don't have equals signs for the two 24s, and the entries thereabouts might be worth checking as I make them:

    22 Hollies (91 points)
    23= Kingsmen (96 points)
    23= Dusty 'I only...' (96 points)
    25 Dusty 'Stay awhile' (100 points)

    I would like to think they did promote Dusty's new entry - to resist the RR drag effect!

    Also that week the Swinging Blue Jeans score the same 33 points as the Tremeloes and Brenda Lee implying all three tie at number 7.

    On BBC 29-Feb chart, Searchers and Merseybeats score the same 18 points implying they tie at number 4.

    Once again difficult to know if their placings were deliberate or in error.
    Last edited by Splodj; Sun June 21, 2020, 15:34.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the chart for February 29th 1964 guys.

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 29th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
    Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
    1 1 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 1 1 1 1 1
    3 2 Diane - The Bachelors 2 2 2 2 2
    11 3 Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five 3 3 3 3 4
    6 4 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 4 5 4 4 5
    2 5 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 5 4 5 6 3
    4 6 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 6 6 7 5 6
    7 7 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 8 8 6 8 8
    5 8 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann 7 7 8 7 7
    8 9 As Usual - Brenda Lee 9 9 9 10 9
    10 10 I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard 10 10 10 9 10
    9 11 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 11 12 11 12 12
    13 12 Baby I Love You - The Ronettes 12 17 13 15 11
    20 13 Boys Cry - Eden Kane 13 16 14 14 13
    14 14 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 14 21 12 11
    28 15 Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers 15 13 15 16 20
    18 16 For You - Rick Nelson 16 15 18 20 16
    24 17 Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield 18 14 19 21 18
    NEW 18 Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones 19 10 22 13 29
    12 19 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 17 22 16 19 14
    19 20 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 20 18 23 18
    15 21 Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield 21 29 17 25 15
    17 22 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 22 24 20 26 17
    30 23 Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby 24 18 26 23 24
    16 24 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 25 26 21 27 19
    NEW 25 Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison 23 23 29 17 21
    NEW 26 I Love You Because - Jim Reeves 26 20 28 22 26
    26 27 Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 27 24 24 22
    21 28 I'm In Love - The Fourmost 28 25 23
    NEW 29 Nadine - Chuck Berry 29 29 27 30 27
    NEW 30 You Were There - Heinz 30= 25
    Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas 30= 27 29
    Louie Louie - The Kingsmen 29 30 30
    That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney 28
    I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 30= 25
    Just One Look - The Hollies 28
    She Loves You - The Beatles 28

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Thanks for your feedback guys. Yeah seeing all the charts side by side really shows up variations between them and thus far the RR inadequacies are displayed and laid bare.

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  • eurofandave
    replied
    Loving this thread Brian! Excellent work!! :-)

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  • Splodj
    replied
    I can't help wondering if RR used some returns from the previous week. New Entries appear lower and climb more slowly. If the low number of returns was the only reason for RRs outlier positions you would expect some records to rise faster and others slower - not all slower.

    The BBC should have realised that the only reason for their ties at 7 and 12 was the significant drag effect of RR (placing the upcoming record 4 and 7 places lower respectively) and untied accordingly.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Here is the next chart for February 22nd 1964.
    When you look at the comparison table between Music Paper Chart positions you can really see how out of touch RR was in comparison to the other three charts. Yet again the BBC chart had a number of ties but these are successfully split by the factoring in of the number of music paper returns to give a much more robust and representative chart.
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 22nd 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
    Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
    7 1 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 1 1 1 1 2
    1 2 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 2 2 2 2 3
    3 3 Diane - The Bachelors 3 3 3 3 1
    2 4 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 4 4 4 4 4
    4 5 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann 5 5 5 5 5
    9 6 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 6 6 6 6 9
    10 7 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 7= 8 7 7 11
    6 8 As Usual - Brenda Lee 7= 9 8 9 7
    5 9 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 9 10 9 8 6
    12 10 I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard 10 11 10 11 8
    NEW 11 Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five 12= 7 14 10 19
    8 12 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 11 12 12 13 10
    13 13 Baby I Love You - The Ronettes 12= 14 11 12 13
    17 14 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 14 13 13 14
    11 15 Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield 15 16 16 15 12
    14 16 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 16 17 17 16 16
    15 17 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 18 20 15 17 15
    19 18 For You - Rick Nelson 17 17 18 18 14
    22 19 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 19 15 20 19
    26 20 Boys Cry - Eden Kane 20 22 19 20 18
    18 21 I'm In Love - The Fourmost 21 27 21 21 20
    16 22 Stay - The Hollies 23 25 22 23 21
    23 23 Louie Louie - The Kingsmen 24= 19 26 22 29
    NEW 24 Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield 22 21 25 24 30
    20 25 I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 24= 23 25 17
    29 26 Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 26 24 27 22
    28 27 She Loves You - The Beatles 27 27 30 23
    NEW 28 Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers 23
    NEW 29 Top Six No 1 (EP) - Various Artists 24
    NEW 30 Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby 30= 26 28
    Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens 28 28 25
    We Are In Love - Adam Faith 30= 30 24
    Nadine - Chuck Berry 28 26 27
    Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison 28 29
    Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury 29 28
    Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 30 26
    You Were There - Heinz 29
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun June 21, 2020, 16:52.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    It has been a busy day for me today guys but will have another couple of charts on the thread tomorrow.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    The record I most remember being played on the radio at this time was the Harry Secombe one lurking around the bottom - a sort of Light Programme 'turntable hit'. I don't think the more raunchy records like Hippy Hippy Shake got much airplay.

    The following month Radio Caroline would arrive and herald the start of radio playlists more directly related to the charts.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Well spotted Trebor and thanks for picking up on that, somehow I missed that on the check . I've corrected it now .

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  • trebor
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 8th 1964 BBC NME RM MM Disc RR
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
    Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
    22 22 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Beatles 22 24 23 21
    Brian: Small slip there!

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  • Splodj
    replied
    In those last couple, there were tied scores not reflected by tied positions in the BBC chart.

    - 8th Feb : 73 points apiece for Adam Faith and Irwin - implying joint 16th;

    - 15th Feb : 28 points apiece for DC5 and Brenda Lee - implying joint 6th.

    Either mistakes or the application of some type of tiebreaker methodology.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 15th 1964 BBC NME RM MM Disc RR
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
    Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
    1 1 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 1 1 1 1 1
    2 2 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 2 2 2 2 2
    8 3 Diane - The Bachelors 3 3 3 3 3
    7 4 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann 4 4 4 4 5
    3 5 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 5 5 5 5 4
    5 6 As Usual - Brenda Lee 7 8 6 7 7
    26 7 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 8 5 8 6 10
    4 8 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 6 7 7 8 6
    13 9 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 9 9 9 9 9
    18 10 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 10 11 11 10 13
    9 11 Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield 11 14 10 14 8
    20 12 I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard 12 10 13 11 14
    14 13 Baby I Love You - The Ronettes 13 13 12 12 12
    6 14 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 14 12 15 13 11
    10 15 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 15 16 14 15 15
    11 16 Stay - The Hollies 17 18 17 16 19
    28 17 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 16 15 20 17
    15 18 I'm In Love - The Fourmost 18 19 16 20 18
    21 19 For You - Rick Nelson 19 22 19 19 16
    12 20 I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 20 23 18 21 17
    17 21 Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 22 21 23 26 20
    22 22 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 21 20 27 18
    24 23 Louie Louie - The Kingsmen 23 16 28 22 26
    16 24 We Are In Love - Adam Faith 24 25 21 23 25
    19 25 Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury 25 28 22 24 22
    NEW 26 Boys Cry - Eden Kane 26 26 25 25 24
    25 27 Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens 27 24 28 23
    23 28 She Loves You - The Beatles 28 26 29 21
    NEW 29 Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 29 24 29 27
    30 30 My Baby Left Me - Dave Berry 30= 27
    Top Six No 1 (EP) - Various Artists 29
    I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones 30= 27
    Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley 30 30
    Nadine - Chuck Berry 30 30
    If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe 28
    Um Um Um Um Um Um - Major Lance 30
    Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras 29

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  • Splodj
    replied
    The inverse method also gives the same score to those records - just that it is zero instead of 31. That is why I say there is no inherent difference between the two methods.

    But the point I was making is that the BBC avoided this distortion in any case by presenting to the public only the Top 20. The records for which they allocated 31 points were invariably in the 21-30 section which they calculated only for their private use.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The big disadvantage as you probably already know with that system though Splodj was that by using the 21 points for a record outside a Top 20, and later 31 for outside the Top 30 this awarded equal points to all such records irregardless of what position they would have held outside the chart so this in effect let to fundamental inaccuracy.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 8th 1964 BBC NME RM MM Disc RR
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
    Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
    1 1 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 1 1 1 1 1
    4 2 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 2 2 2 2 2
    2 3 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 3 3 3 3 3
    3 4 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 4 5 4 4 4
    10 5 As Usual - Brenda Lee 5 7 5 5 5
    5 6 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 6 8 6 6 6
    13 7 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann 7 6 8 7 9
    19 8 Diane - The Bachelors 8 4 11 8 8
    9 9 Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield 9 9 7 9 10
    6 10 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 10 10 9 11 7
    8 11 Stay - The Hollies 11 11 10 10 12
    7 12 I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 12 13 12 13 11
    17 13 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 13 12 13 12 15
    21 14 Baby I Love You - The Ronettes 14 16 14 14 13
    16 15 I'm In Love - The Fourmost 15 15 15 15 17
    12 16 We Are In Love - Adam Faith 16 21 17 17 18
    11 17 Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 17 23 16 18 16
    30 18 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 19 17 19 19 22
    15 19 Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury 18 22 18 20 14
    NEW 20 I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard 20 14 26 16 23
    26 21 For You - Rick Nelson 21 25 21 23 21
    22 22 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 22 24 23 21
    14 23 She Loves You - The Beatles 23 29 22 25 19
    25 24 Louie Louie - The Kingsmen 26= 18 27 26
    27 25 Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens 24= 20 28 20
    NEW 26 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 24= 18 22 28
    20 27 I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones 26= 27 24 27 24
    NEW 28 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 28 18 24
    18 29 Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley 29 28 25 25
    NEW 30 My Baby Left Me - Dave Berry 30= 26
    Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras 28
    You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers 29 30
    If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe 30= 26
    Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 30 29
    Boys Cry - Eden Kane 30 30
    Secret Love - Kathy Kirby 27
    Dominique - The Singing Nun 29
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Fri June 19, 2020, 22:51.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    Important to bear in mind that the BBC presented their chart as a Top 20. On the recording above, Alan Freeman back announces 54321 at number 12 as a new entry, not a climber from 21.

    By calculating 21-30 they avoided the distortions in the Top 20 that would have occurred by allocating 21 points to the 'others'. The 'others' to which they allocated 31 points are almost always outside the 20.

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  • Splodj
    commented on 's reply
    Great to hear.

    Whoever recorded it has skipped Dusty Springfield at number 7!

  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Yeah the fact that the BBC made quite a few errors some already known some yet to be discovered like yours above was the initial driving force behind my goal to re-compile these charts but with the addition of store returns factored in to make them much more robust and balanced.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    A couple more apparent mistakes in previous BBC charts ...

    - 18th January : Maria Elena got 73 points and should have tied at number 16 with Gerry and Brenda, not been at 18.

    - 25th January : The Beatles got 45 points and should have tied with Brenda at number 10, not tied with Billy at 13.

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  • Woz1234
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    When I try to recreate the BBC chart I get 6 records in different positions:

    11 Big Dee Irwin (46 points) BBC-13
    12 Adam Faith (47 points) BBC-11
    13 Manfred Mann (50 points) BBC-12

    16 Fourmost (67 points) BBC-17
    17 Merseybeats (71 points) BBC-18
    18 Presley (76 points) BBC-16

    This could have been caused by only two mistakes - demoting Irwin and promoting Presley.
    You have BBC chart positions right,

    https://www.mixcloud.com/peteseaton/...reeman-020264/

    Starts off with Manfred Mann at #12 & then Merseybeat at #18

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  • Splodj
    replied
    And yes Brian I did notice that the positions my calculations put them in are the same as in your chart!

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  • Splodj
    replied
    When I try to recreate the BBC chart I get 6 records in different positions:

    11 Big Dee Irwin (46 points) BBC-13
    12 Adam Faith (47 points) BBC-11
    13 Manfred Mann (50 points) BBC-12

    16 Fourmost (67 points) BBC-17
    17 Merseybeats (71 points) BBC-18
    18 Presley (76 points) BBC-16

    This could have been caused by only two mistakes - demoting Irwin and promoting Presley.
    Last edited by Splodj; Thu June 18, 2020, 19:39.

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  • MrTibbs
    replied
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 1st 1964 BBC NME RM MM Disc RR
    Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart
    Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30
    6 1 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 1 1 1 1 1
    2 2 Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans 2 2 2 2 3
    1 3 Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five 3 3 3 3 2
    7 4 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 4 4 4 4 4
    4 5 Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney 5 5 5 5 7
    3 6 I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles 6 6 6 6 6
    5 7 I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield 7 7 8 9 5
    8 8 Stay - The Hollies 8 8 7 8 8
    11 9 Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield 10 8 10 10 10
    12 10 As Usual - Brenda Lee 9 10 11 7 9
    9 11 Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin 13 12 9 13 12
    13 12 We Are In Love - Adam Faith 11 13 12 11 11
    20 13 5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann 12 10 14 12 14
    10 14 She Loves You - The Beatles 15 18 13 15 16
    14 15 Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury 14 16 17 14 13
    17 16 I'm In Love - The Fourmost 17 15 15 17 20
    NEW 17 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 18 20 16 16 19
    15 18 Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley 16 22 18 21 15
    NEW 19 Diane - The Bachelors 19 14 24 18 22
    16 20 I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones 20 22 21 19 17
    22 21 Baby I Love You - The Ronettes 21 25 19 23 18
    23 22 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 22 19 29 20
    19 23 Dominique - The Singing Nun 23 20 24 24
    21 24 Secret Love - Kathy Kirby 24 23 25 21
    28 25 Louie Louie - The Kingsmen 28 17 27
    NEW 26 For You - Rick Nelson 25= 20 22 30
    30 27 Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens 27 26 26 26 26
    18 28 You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers 25= 22 25
    24 29 Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras 30 25 30 23
    NEW 30 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 24 29
    The Dave Clark Five (EP) - The Dave Clark Five 29 28 28
    If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe 27 28
    Song Of Mexico - Tony Meehan 27
    Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles 30 28
    My Baby Left Me - Dave Berry 29
    You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers 27
    Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard 30
    Geronimo - The Shadows 29
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Fri June 19, 2020, 10:44.

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