The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[Splodj]

Sorry, I should have been clearer that the 22-25 positions I calculated were for the BBC chart. When I saw that you had not put in the equals signs for two of them I thought there might be a connection between that omission and their strange positions - but it transpires there wasn't.

[MrTibbs]

Splodj I am happy to confirm both were equal 24 as I posted so it is accurate I just obviously missed out the = which are now added.
Remember though you seem to be just using inverse points for your calculations I am factoring in points for the record store returns as well which does change things a bit.
I am using Inverse Points for each chart, 30 points for No 1 down to 1 point for No 30 for each chart then multiplying those points by each music paper's store returns to get a score. 250 for MM, 200 for NME, 100 for Disc, and 85 for RR. So that is why you are getting a different result.

[Splodj]

Brian,

On the BBC 22-Feb chart you don't have equals signs for the two 24s, and the entries thereabouts might be worth checking as I make them:

22 Hollies (91 points)
23= Kingsmen (96 points)
23= Dusty 'I only...' (96 points)
25 Dusty 'Stay awhile' (100 points)

I would like to think they did promote Dusty's new entry - to resist the RR drag effect!

Also that week the Swinging Blue Jeans score the same 33 points as the Tremeloes and Brenda Lee implying all three tie at number 7.

On BBC 29-Feb chart, Searchers and Merseybeats score the same 18 points implying they tie at number 4.

Once again difficult to know if their placings were deliberate or in error.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the chart for February 29th 1964 guys.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 29th 1964							BBC	NME	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions			30
1	1	Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black					1	1	1	1	1
3	2	Diane - The Bachelors					2	2	2	2	2
11	3	Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five					3	3	3	3	4
6	4	I Think Of You - The Merseybeats					4	5	4	4	5
2	5	Needles And Pins - The Searchers					5	4	5	6	3
4	6	I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers					6	6	7	5	6
7	7	Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes					8	8	6	8	8
5	8	5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann					7	7	8	7	7
8	9	As Usual - Brenda Lee					9	9	9	10	9
10	10	I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard					10	10	10	9	10
9	11	Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans					11	12	11	12	12
13	12	Baby I Love You - The Ronettes					12	17	13	15	11
20	13	Boys Cry - Eden Kane					13	16	14	14	13
14	14	All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles					14	21	12	11
28	15	Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers					15	13	15	16	20
18	16	For You - Rick Nelson					16	15	18	20	16
24	17	Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield					18	14	19	21	18
NEW	18	Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones					19	10	22	13	29
12	19	Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five					17	22	16	19	14
19	20	The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones					20	18	23	18
15	21	Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield					21	29	17	25	15
17	22	I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles					22	24	20	26	17
30	23	Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby					24	18	26	23	24
16	24	Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney					25	26	21	27	19
NEW	25	Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison					23	23	29	17	21
NEW	26	I Love You Because - Jim Reeves					26	20	28	22	26
26	27	Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd					27		24	24	22
21	28	I'm In Love - The Fourmost					28		25		23
NEW	29	Nadine - Chuck Berry					29	29	27	30	27
NEW	30	You Were There - Heinz					30=	25
		Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas					30=	27		29
		Louie Louie - The Kingsmen						29	30		30
		That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney						28
		I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield					30=				25
		Just One Look - The Hollies								28
		She Loves You - The Beatles									28

[MrTibbs]

Thanks for your feedback guys. Yeah seeing all the charts side by side really shows up variations between them and thus far the RR inadequacies are displayed and laid bare.

[eurofandave]

Loving this thread Brian! Excellent work!! :-)

[Splodj]

I can't help wondering if RR used some returns from the previous week. New Entries appear lower and climb more slowly. If the low number of returns was the only reason for RRs outlier positions you would expect some records to rise faster and others slower - not all slower.

The BBC should have realised that the only reason for their ties at 7 and 12 was the significant drag effect of RR (placing the upcoming record 4 and 7 places lower respectively) and untied accordingly.

[MrTibbs]

Here is the next chart for February 22nd 1964.
When you look at the comparison table between Music Paper Chart positions you can really see how out of touch RR was in comparison to the other three charts. Yet again the BBC chart had a number of ties but these are successfully split by the factoring in of the number of music paper returns to give a much more robust and representative chart.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 22nd 1964							BBC	NME	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions			30
7	1	Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black					1	1	1	1	2
1	2	Needles And Pins - The Searchers					2	2	2	2	3
3	3	Diane - The Bachelors					3	3	3	3	1
2	4	I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers					4	4	4	4	4
4	5	5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann					5	5	5	5	5
9	6	I Think Of You - The Merseybeats					6	6	6	6	9
10	7	Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes					7=	8	7	7	11
6	8	As Usual - Brenda Lee					7=	9	8	9	7
5	9	Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans					9	10	9	8	6
12	10	I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard					10	11	10	11	8
NEW	11	Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five					12=	7	14	10	19
8	12	Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five					11	12	12	13	10
13	13	Baby I Love You - The Ronettes					12=	14	11	12	13
17	14	All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles					14	13	13	14
11	15	Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield					15	16	16	15	12
14	16	Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney					16	17	17	16	16
15	17	I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles					18	20	15	17	15
19	18	For You - Rick Nelson					17	17	18	18	14
22	19	The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones					19	15	20	19
26	20	Boys Cry - Eden Kane					20	22	19	20	18
18	21	I'm In Love - The Fourmost					21	27	21	21	20
16	22	Stay - The Hollies					23	25	22	23	21
23	23	Louie Louie - The Kingsmen					24=	19	26	22	29
NEW	24	Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield					22	21	25	24	30
20	25	I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield					24=		23	25	17
29	26	Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd					26		24	27	22
28	27	She Loves You - The Beatles					27		27	30	23
NEW	28	Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers						23
NEW	29	Top Six No 1 (EP) - Various Artists						24
NEW	30	Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby					30=	26		28
		Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens					28		28		25
		We Are In Love - Adam Faith					30=		30		24
		Nadine - Chuck Berry					28			26	27
		Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison						28		29
		Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury							29		28
		Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin						30			26
		You Were There - Heinz						29

[MrTibbs]

It has been a busy day for me today guys but will have another couple of charts on the thread tomorrow.

[Splodj]

The record I most remember being played on the radio at this time was the Harry Secombe one lurking around the bottom - a sort of Light Programme 'turntable hit'. I don't think the more raunchy records like Hippy Hippy Shake got much airplay.

The following month Radio Caroline would arrive and herald the start of radio playlists more directly related to the charts.

[MrTibbs]

Well spotted Trebor and thanks for picking up on that, somehow I missed that on the check . I've corrected it now .

[trebor]

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 8th 1964

BBC

NME

RM

MM

Disc

RR

Last

This

Chart

Chart

Chart

Chart

Chart

Chart

Week

Week

Title and Artist

Total Chart Positions

30

22

22

The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Beatles

22

24

23

21

Brian: Small slip there!

[Splodj]

In those last couple, there were tied scores not reflected by tied positions in the BBC chart.

- 8th Feb : 73 points apiece for Adam Faith and Irwin - implying joint 16th;

- 15th Feb : 28 points apiece for DC5 and Brenda Lee - implying joint 6th.

Either mistakes or the application of some type of tiebreaker methodology.

[MrTibbs]

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 15th 1964							BBC	NME	RM	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions				30
1	1	Needles And Pins - The Searchers					1	1		1	1	1
2	2	I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers					2	2		2	2	2
8	3	Diane - The Bachelors					3	3		3	3	3
7	4	5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann					4	4		4	4	5
3	5	Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans					5	5		5	5	4
5	6	As Usual - Brenda Lee					7	8		6	7	7
26	7	Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black					8	5		8	6	10
4	8	Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five					6	7		7	8	6
13	9	I Think Of You - The Merseybeats					9	9		9	9	9
18	10	Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes					10	11		11	10	13
9	11	Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield					11	14		10	14	8
20	12	I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard					12	10		13	11	14
14	13	Baby I Love You - The Ronettes					13	13		12	12	12
6	14	Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney					14	12		15	13	11
10	15	I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles					15	16		14	15	15
11	16	Stay - The Hollies					17	18		17	16	19
28	17	All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles					16	15		20	17
15	18	I'm In Love - The Fourmost					18	19		16	20	18
21	19	For You - Rick Nelson					19	22		19	19	16
12	20	I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield					20	23		18	21	17
17	21	Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin					22	21		23	26	20
22	22	The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones					21	20		27	18
24	23	Louie Louie - The Kingsmen					23	16		28	22	26
16	24	We Are In Love - Adam Faith					24	25		21	23	25
19	25	Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury					25	28		22	24	22
NEW	26	Boys Cry - Eden Kane					26	26		25	25	24
25	27	Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens					27			24	28	23
23	28	She Loves You - The Beatles					28			26	29	21
NEW	29	Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd					29	24		29	27
30	30	My Baby Left Me - Dave Berry					30=	27
		Top Six No 1 (EP) - Various Artists						29
		I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones					30=					27
		Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley								30		30
		Nadine - Chuck Berry						30			30
		If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe										28
		Um Um Um Um Um Um - Major Lance						30
		Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras										29

[Splodj]

The inverse method also gives the same score to those records - just that it is zero instead of 31. That is why I say there is no inherent difference between the two methods.

But the point I was making is that the BBC avoided this distortion in any case by presenting to the public only the Top 20. The records for which they allocated 31 points were invariably in the 21-30 section which they calculated only for their private use.

[MrTibbs]

The big disadvantage as you probably already know with that system though Splodj was that by using the 21 points for a record outside a Top 20, and later 31 for outside the Top 30 this awarded equal points to all such records irregardless of what position they would have held outside the chart so this in effect let to fundamental inaccuracy.

[MrTibbs]

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 8th 1964							BBC	NME	RM	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions				30
1	1	Needles And Pins - The Searchers					1	1		1	1	1
4	2	I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers					2	2		2	2	2
2	3	Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans					3	3		3	3	3
3	4	Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five					4	5		4	4	4
10	5	As Usual - Brenda Lee					5	7		5	5	5
5	6	Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney					6	8		6	6	6
13	7	5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann					7	6		8	7	9
19	8	Diane - The Bachelors					8	4		11	8	8
9	9	Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield					9	9		7	9	10
6	10	I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles					10	10		9	11	7
8	11	Stay - The Hollies					11	11		10	10	12
7	12	I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield					12	13		12	13	11
17	13	I Think Of You - The Merseybeats					13	12		13	12	15
21	14	Baby I Love You - The Ronettes					14	16		14	14	13
16	15	I'm In Love - The Fourmost					15	15		15	15	17
12	16	We Are In Love - Adam Faith					16	21		17	17	18
11	17	Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin					17	23		16	18	16
30	18	Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes					19	17		19	19	22
15	19	Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury					18	22		18	20	14
NEW	20	I'm The Lonely One - Cliff Richard					20	14		26	16	23
26	21	For You - Rick Nelson					21	25		21	23	21
22	22	The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones					22	24		23	21
14	23	She Loves You - The Beatles					23	29		22	25	19
25	24	Louie Louie - The Kingsmen					26=	18		27	26
27	25	Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens					24=			20	28	20
NEW	26	Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black					24=	18			22	28
20	27	I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones					26=	27		24	27	24
NEW	28	All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles					28	18			24
18	29	Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley					29	28		25		25
NEW	30	My Baby Left Me - Dave Berry					30=	26
		Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras								28
		You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers								29		30
		If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe					30=					26
		Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd						30			29
		Boys Cry - Eden Kane								30	30
		Secret Love - Kathy Kirby										27
		Dominique - The Singing Nun										29

[Splodj]

Important to bear in mind that the BBC presented their chart as a Top 20. On the recording above, Alan Freeman back announces 54321 at number 12 as a new entry, not a climber from 21.

By calculating 21-30 they avoided the distortions in the Top 20 that would have occurred by allocating 21 points to the 'others'. The 'others' to which they allocated 31 points are almost always outside the 20.

[Splodj]

Great to hear.

Whoever recorded it has skipped Dusty Springfield at number 7!

[MrTibbs]

Yeah the fact that the BBC made quite a few errors some already known some yet to be discovered like yours above was the initial driving force behind my goal to re-compile these charts but with the addition of store returns factored in to make them much more robust and balanced.

[Splodj]

A couple more apparent mistakes in previous BBC charts ...

- 18th January : Maria Elena got 73 points and should have tied at number 16 with Gerry and Brenda, not been at 18.

- 25th January : The Beatles got 45 points and should have tied with Brenda at number 10, not tied with Billy at 13.

[Woz1234]

When I try to recreate the BBC chart I get 6 records in different positions:

11 Big Dee Irwin (46 points) BBC-13
12 Adam Faith (47 points) BBC-11
13 Manfred Mann (50 points) BBC-12

16 Fourmost (67 points) BBC-17
17 Merseybeats (71 points) BBC-18
18 Presley (76 points) BBC-16

This could have been caused by only two mistakes - demoting Irwin and promoting Presley.

You have BBC chart positions right,

https://www.mixcloud.com/peteseaton/...reeman-020264/

Starts off with Manfred Mann at #12 & then Merseybeat at #18

[Splodj]

And yes Brian I did notice that the positions my calculations put them in are the same as in your chart!

[Splodj]

When I try to recreate the BBC chart I get 6 records in different positions:

11 Big Dee Irwin (46 points) BBC-13
12 Adam Faith (47 points) BBC-11
13 Manfred Mann (50 points) BBC-12

16 Fourmost (67 points) BBC-17
17 Merseybeats (71 points) BBC-18
18 Presley (76 points) BBC-16

This could have been caused by only two mistakes - demoting Irwin and promoting Presley.

[MrTibbs]

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending February 1st 1964							BBC	NME	RM	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions				30
6	1	Needles And Pins - The Searchers					1	1		1	1	1
2	2	Hippy Hippy Shake - The Swinging Blue Jeans					2	2		2	2	3
1	3	Glad All Over - The Dave Clark Five					3	3		3	3	2
7	4	I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers					4	4		4	4	4
4	5	Twenty Four Hours From Tulsa - Gene Pitney					5	5		5	5	7
3	6	I Want To Hold Your Hand - The Beatles					6	6		6	6	6
5	7	I Only Want To Be With You - Dusty Springfield					7	7		8	9	5
8	8	Stay - The Hollies					8	8		7	8	8
11	9	Don't Blame Me - Frank Ifield					10	8		10	10	10
12	10	As Usual - Brenda Lee					9	10		11	7	9
9	11	Swinging On A Star - Big Dee Irwin					13	12		9	13	12
13	12	We Are In Love - Adam Faith					11	13		12	11	11
20	13	5 4 3 2 1 - Manfred Mann					12	10		14	12	14
10	14	She Loves You - The Beatles					15	18		13	15	16
14	15	Do You Really Love Me Too - Billy Fury					14	16		17	14	13
17	16	I'm In Love - The Fourmost					17	15		15	17	20
NEW	17	I Think Of You - The Merseybeats					18	20		16	16	19
15	18	Kiss Me Quick - Elvis Presley					16	22		18	21	15
NEW	19	Diane - The Bachelors					19	14		24	18	22
16	20	I Wanna Be Your Man - The Rolling Stones					20	22		21	19	17
22	21	Baby I Love You - The Ronettes					21	25		19	23	18
23	22	The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones					22	19		29	20
19	23	Dominique - The Singing Nun					23			20	24	24
21	24	Secret Love - Kathy Kirby					24			23	25	21
28	25	Louie Louie - The Kingsmen					28	17			27
NEW	26	For You - Rick Nelson					25=	20			22	30
30	27	Whispering - Nino Tempo and April Stevens					27	26		26	26	26
18	28	You Were Made For Me - Freddie and The Dreamers					25=			22		25
24	29	Maria Elena - Los Indios Tabajaras					30			25	30	23
NEW	30	Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes						24			29
		The Dave Clark Five (EP) - The Dave Clark Five					29	28		28
		If I Ruled The World - Harry Secombe								27		28
		Song Of Mexico - Tony Meehan						27
		Twist And Shout (EP) - The Beatles								30	28
		My Baby Left Me - Dave Berry						29
		You'll Never Walk Alone - Gerry and The Pacemakers										27
		Don't Talk To Him - Cliff Richard						30
		Geronimo - The Shadows										29