The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[MrTibbs]

Thanks Splodj, that is most helpful.

[Splodj]

Agree about the both sides issue, which we discussed on another thread. Effectively it is applying the EP solution.

But when you do the 50s you are probably going to need a changeover date to that system, which I have suggested could be March 1958.

[MrTibbs]

Thanks for your thoughts membranemusic. The problem with allocating points to both though means the record gets more than its fair share of points, eg, the example you give on January 5th 1963. Maximum points a record can achieve is 30, so if you allocate 28 points to The Next Time and 25 to Bachelor Boy you get 53 points so this obviously doesn't work, and if you simply add extra points to compensate this is subjective and open to interpretation and therefore inconsistency . I believe taking an average of all the other charts which combined the titles does give an acceptable result as the average will fall within the parameters of the other charts and therefore be reliable.

I am enjoying your input and comments though.

[membranemusic]

Hello MrTibbs
Yes, apologies, I drafted my response on methodology but had to wait for posting. So I appreciate that you have sales criteria in addition to points.
It’s great to see No. 21-30, which were not broadcast at that time.

I am not sure the BBC were bothered with a tiebreaker most of the time – just mild embarrassment at a joint position. There were plenty of joint positions after 1964 dates you mention.

Regarding double –sided hits, mrtibbs, one method not used by the BBC is to allocate a small number of points to the lesser-selling side and add them to the NME A-side, but subject to an upper limit, as the average of the other 3 charts might under-compensate on some occasions. Just saying….. It gets especially tricky with “Next Time”/”Bachelor Boy” in 62/63.

Keep on please.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 2nd May 1964.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 2nd 1964							BBC	NME	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions			30
4	1	Don't Throw Your Love Away - The Searchers					1	2	1	1	2
1	2	A World Without Love - Peter and Gordon					2	1	2	3	1
2	3	I Believe - The Bachelors					3	3	3	2	3
5	4	My Boy Lollipop - Millie					4	4	4	4	5
3	5	Can't Buy Me Love - The Beatles					5	5	5	5	4
6	6	I Love You Because - Jim Reeves					6	6	6	6	6
13	7	Don't Let The Sun Catch You Crying - Gerry and Pacemakers					7	7	8	9	7
9	8	Move Over Darling - Doris Day					8	8	9	8	8
18	9	Juliet - The Four Pennies					9	9	10	7	12
11	10	Everything's Alright - The Mojos					10	13	7	10	9
12	11	Mocking Bird Hill - The Migil Five					11	12	11	11	10
15	12	Hubble Bubble Toil And Trouble - Manfred Mann					12	11	14	13	11
17	13	Walk On By - Dionne Warwick					13	10	13	15	15
7	14	Tell Me When - The Applejacks					14	18	12	12	14
10	15	Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones					15	19	16	16	13
8	16	Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas					16	20	15	14	16
20	17	Don't Turn Around - The Merseybeats					17=	14	18	19	17
30	18	A Little Loving - The Fourmost					17=	17	19	18	19
NEW	19	It's Over - Roy Orbison					20	15	21	17
14	20	Just One Look - The Hollies					19	24	17	21	18
24	21	Baby Let Me Take You Home - The Animals					21	15	23	26	21
16	22	Good Golly Miss Molly - The Swinging Blue Jeans					23	25	20	23	20
NEW	23	Constantly - Cliff Richard					24	22	22	22	30
27	24	Hi-Heel Sneakers - Tommy Tucker					25	27	25	24	23
NEW	25	If I Loved You - Richard Anthony					26	26	26	25	28
NEW	26	Angry At The Big Oak Tree - Frank Ifield					27	27	27	27	25
19	27	That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney					28		24	30	22
NEW	28	Non Ho L'Eta Per Amarti - Gigliola Cinquetti					29	21	30
25	29	Diane - The Bachelors					30	29	29		26
NEW	30	The Spartans - Sounds Incorporated							28
		The Rolling Stones (LP) - The Rolling Stones					22	23		20
		Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows									24
		Think - Brenda Lee								29	27
		I Will - Billy Fury						30		28
		Baby It's You - Dave Berry						30
		Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley									29

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 25th April 1964. Enjoy.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 25th 1964							BBC	NME	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions			30
1	1	A World Without Love - Peter and Gordon					1	1	1	1	1
3	2	I Believe - The Bachelors					2	2	2	2	3
2	3	Can't Buy Me Love - The Beatles					3	3	3	3	2
12	4	Don't Throw Your Love Away - The Searchers					4	3	4	4	4
8	5	My Boy Lollipop - Millie					5	5	5	5	5
6	6	I Love You Because - Jim Reeves					6	6	6	6	6
5	7	Tell Me When - The Applejacks					7	7	8	7	7
4	8	Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas					8	9	7	9	9
11	9	Move Over Darling - Doris Day					9	8	9	8	11
7	10	Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones					10	11	11	10	8
13	11	Everything's Alright - The Mojos					11	13	10	11	12
15	12	Mocking Bird Hill - The Migil Five					12	10	13	12	13
24	13	Don't Let The Sun Catch You Crying - Gerry and Pacemakers					14	11	14	13	17
9	14	Just One Look - The Hollies					13	16	12	15	10
23	15	Hubble Bubble Toil And Trouble - Manfred Mann					15	15	16	14	16
14	16	Good Golly Miss Molly - The Swinging Blue Jeans					16	17	15	18	14
27	17	Walk On By - Dionne Warwick					19	14	19	16	25
21	18	Juliet - The Four Pennies					17	19	18	17	18
10	19	That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney					18	21	17	19	15
NEW	20	Don't Turn Around - The Merseybeats					20	18	21	20	24
17	21	Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows					21	22	20	21	20
18	22	Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley					23	24	22	30	22
16	23	Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five					23	27	25	23	23
NEW	24	Baby Let Me Take You Home - The Animals					26=	19	27	29	29
20	25	Diane - The Bachelors					26=	29	23	28	21
19	26	Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black					25		24	25	19
RE	27	Hi-Heel Sneakers - Tommy Tucker					28	25	28	24	28
28	28	Think - Brenda Lee					29	26	29	27	26
22	29	New Orleans - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen					30		26		27
NEW	30	A Little Loving - The Fourmost						28	30
		The Rolling Stones (LP) - The Rolling Stones					22	23		22
		If I Loved You - Richard Anthony								26
		Angry At The Big Oak Tree - Frank Ifield						29
		Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby									30

[Splodj]

According to my calculations, on BBC scoring if a record is top in 3 of the charts it will score best unless it is at least as low as number 5 in the 4th chart. There are 4 more occasions in the next 12 months when RR had a record below 5 which the others had at number 1.

[eurofandave]

Guys, do you find it helpful to see all the music paper charts and the BBC chart side by side to make comparisons ?

Brian,I love the layout!! It's really helpful to see all the music paper's charts positions side by side!! Well done!! :-)

[MrTibbs]

Hey guys, I always enjoy your feedback. Thanks membranemusic for your very positive comments on my other thread. I really enjoyed working on that musical tapestry to its completion and am now equally engrossed in this fascinating and addictive thread. I read yours and Splodj's comments above. I outlined my methodology away back at the start of this thread and you will see that I address your compiler issues there membranemusic as these are all valid considerations.

As you mention and Splodj the BBC calculations were not the most accurate hence why I went back to the drawing board on calculation using just Top 30 positions and also added the individual music papers' store returns to further enhance robustness .

I am really pleased with the outcome. As you can see it is not littered with ties. In the 19 weeks I have thus so far compiled with my method there have only been 2 ties, both at the very bottom end of the chart which I separated by using MM positions as it has the largest store return.

The BBC's own policy on ties varied through the years so was not consistent.

Continue to enjoy the chart guys as the Ultimate Averaged Chart is probably the most accurate we will ever get to a true chart of the time. I use an excell spreadsheet to assist with this to ensure accuracy with calculations. I owe a debt to my buddy RokinRobin for his assistance in developing this spreadsheet for me to work with.

[Splodj]

Membranemusic,

In your re-calculations did you find that the BBC were adopting a tiebreaker policy about this time.

In the recent charts I have found 4 cases where there were equal scores but the BBC have not given equal positions.

On 4-Apr: Bachelors/Stones (4/5) and Applejacks/DC5 (9/10). On 11-Apr: Reeves/Stones (6/7). On 18th Apr Searchers/SBJ (12/13).

In each case the record going down the chart has been given the lower position.

Is this a deliberate new policy? There hasn't been a tie in the Top 20 since 7th March.

There have been ties in the 21-30 section but this was only for internal use. Those 4 tieing at 26 on 4-Apr all have different scores - I think an indication that they didn't bother much about accuracy at the bottom end.

[membranemusic]

Hello
I would also like to pass my congrats to MrTibbs for his Record Mirror posts – the dealer charts - like Tutankhamun!
In doing the BBC charts, this is an interesting endeavour.

I certainly do not want to 'rock the boat' etc., but I have some observations;
As a weekly chart-watcher since 1962, I was a keen follower of the BBC Master chart, to the extent I took it upon myself eventually to re-calculate the occasional wayward BBC chart compilations. I have all the BBC charts (and most of the calculations) from July 1963 to February 1969. Before July 1963 Messrs Jacobs and Freeman were often coy about Nos. 11-20, hence not complete until then. I also have the calculations of all subsequent weeks from February 1969 until to October 1996.

I am pleased to say your 1/2/64 chart is largely the same.

I think a compiler would have to bear several points in mind:

1. Start date of 28/9/57 [BBC], or 1955?
2. End date of 8/2/69 [BBC], or when there ceased to be any bona fide industry journal rivals to MW [1996]? I am aware of the points-of-view.
3. You will have to decide how to treat joint positions: mathematically logical, yet irrational [e.g. 10/3/63 or 28/3/65, where the BBC chart is joint-crazy];
4. You will have to decide how to treat double-sided hits, as the NME split the sales of A-side and B-side on up to 70 singles between 1952 and 1969, as did MM for a while;
5. You will have to decide how to treat EPs, as RR excluded them from the SP chart because they had their own EP chart;
6. You will have to decide how to treat LPs, as the NME included them in their SP chart from time to time, despite having their own LP chart;
7. You will have to decide how to treat different editions of the same recording on the rare moments when 2 labels had hits with exactly the same recording, and RR separated the sales.
8. You may find that 30 points for No. 1, 29 points for 2, etc. works better than 1 point for No.1 etc when compensatory calculations are required.

Half the fun is the calculation. Good luck!

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Thanks guys above for your response to my question.

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 18th April 1964.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 18th 1964							BBC	NME	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions			30
2	1	A World Without Love - Peter and Gordon					1	2	1	1	2
1	2	Can't Buy Me Love - The Beatles					2	1	2	3	1
3	3	I Believe - The Bachelors					3	3	3	2	3
4	4	Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas					4	4	4	4	4
7	5	Tell Me When - The Applejacks					5	5	5	5	7
8	6	I Love You Because - Jim Reeves					6	7	6	6	5
6	7	Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones					7	9	7	7	8
14	8	My Boy Lollipop - Millie					8	6	9	8	10
5	9	Just One Look - The Hollies					9	10	8	10	6
9	10	That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney					10	12	10	11	9
15	11	Move Over Darling - Doris Day					11	11	12	12	12
NEW	12	Don't Throw Your Love Away - The Searchers					12	8	14	9	20
18	13	Everything's Alright - The Mojos					14	15	11	13	13
11	14	Good Golly Miss Molly - The Swinging Blue Jeans					13	13	13	14	11
21	15	Mocking Bird Hill - The Migil Five					16	14	16	15	17
10	16	Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five					15	16	17	16	14
12	17	Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows					17	17	15	17	19
17	18	Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley					19	23	18	21	18
13	19	Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black					18	26	19	18	15
16	20	Diane - The Bachelors					20	30	20	23	16
27	21	Juliet - The Four Pennies					24	19	27	25
24	22	New Orleans - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen					21		21	22	24
NEW	23	Hubble Bubble Toil And Trouble - Manfred Mann					22	21	29	20	29
NEW	24	Don't Let The Sun Catch You Crying - Gerry and The Pacemakers					23	20	30	19
19	25	Boys Cry - Eden Kane					26=	26	24		23
20	26	I Think Of You - The Merseybeats					25		22	29	21
NEW	27	Walk On By - Dionne Warwick					26=	18		24
28	28	Think - Brenda Lee					28	25	26	27	27
23	29	Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers					30		23		25
22	30	Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby					29		25		22
		Don't Turn Around - The Merseybeats						22		28
		Hi-Heel Sneakers - Tommy Tucker						24		26
		If He Tells You - Adam Faith							28		26
		Baby Let Me Take You Home - The Animals						28
		Angry At The Big Oak Tree - Frank Ifield						29		30
		Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield									28
		Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes									30

[Robbie]

Yes, I like the layout as it makes it much easier to compare each music paper / BBC chart to the Ultimate Averaged Chart.

[Splodj]

Definitely, to see the whole picture.

[MrTibbs]

Guys, do you find it helpful to see all the music paper charts and the BBC chart side by side to make comparisons ?

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 11th April 1964.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 11th 1964							BBC	NME	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions			30
1	1	Can't Buy Me Love - The Beatles					1	1	1	1	1
6	2	A World Without Love - Peter and Gordon					2	2	2	2	4
4	3	I Believe - The Bachelors					3	2	3	3	3
2	4	Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas					4	4	4	4	2
3	5	Just One Look - The Hollies					5	5	5	5	5
5	6	Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones					7	7	7	8	6
9	7	Tell Me When - The Applejacks					8	8	6	6	9
7	8	I Love You Because - Jim Reeves					6	6	8	7	7
8	9	That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney					9	9	9	9	8
10	10	Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five					10	12	10	10	10
14	11	Good Golly Miss Molly - The Swinging Blue Jeans					11	11	11	11	14
13	12	Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows					13	15	12	13	12
11	13	Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black					12	14	14	12	11
23	14	My Boy Lollipop - Millie					14	10	16	15	16
20	15	Move Over Darling - Doris Day					15	16	13	17	15
12	16	Diane - The Bachelors					16	19	15	14	13
16	17	Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley					17	17	17	18	17
27	18	Everything's Alright - The Mojos					18	18	18	16	18
15	19	Boys Cry - Eden Kane					19	20	20	19	21
17	20	I Think Of You - The Merseybeats					20	22	19	20	20
25	21	Mocking Bird Hill - The Migil Five					21=	13	24	22	30
18	22	Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby					21=	28	21	21	19
19	23	Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers					23	30	22	23	22
30	24	New Orleans - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen					24		23	24	24
21	25	Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes					25	25	27	28	26
22	26	Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield					26		25	29	23
NEW	27	Juliet - The Four Pennies					29	21
NEW	28	Think - Brenda Lee					27	24		26
28	29	If He Tells You - Adam Faith					28		26		25
NEW	30	Hi-Heel Sneakers - Tommy Tucker						23
		All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles					30		28	27
		Top 6 No 3 - Various Artists						26
		It's So Nice - The Gamblers						27
		Only You - Mark Wynter								25
		Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison							30		28
		The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones							29
		Needles And Pins - The Searchers								30	27
		King Of Kings - Ezz Reco and The Launchers						29
		Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd									29

[MrTibbs]

Yes I dare say they might have 'one' or more, lol.

[Splodj]

So this rule will consistently apply through all the years where any single tops all charts except just one.

And we all know which 'one' that will be!

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 4th 1964.

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 4th 1964							BBC	NME	MM	Disc	RR
Last	This						Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart	Chart
Week	Week	Title and Artist						Total Chart Positions			30
1	1	Can't Buy Me Love - The Beatles					1	1	1	1	1
2	2	Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas					2	3	2	2	2
3	3	Just One Look - The Hollies					3	4	3	3	3
9	4	I Believe - The Bachelors					4	2	4	6	6
4	5	Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones					5	5	5	4	4
14	6	A World Without Love - Peter and Gordon					7	5	6	7	13
6	7	I Love You Because - Jim Reeves					6	7	9	5	5
8	8	That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney					8	8	7	8	9
11	9	Tell Me When - The Applejacks					9	9	8	9	11
5	10	Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five					10	10	10	10	7
7	11	Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black					11	11	11	11	10
10	12	Diane - The Bachelors					12	12	13	13	8
13	13	Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows					13	14	12	12	14
19	14	Good Golly Miss Molly - The Swinging Blue Jeans					15	13	14	16	20
12	15	Boys Cry - Eden Kane					14	19	15	14	12
20	16	Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley					16	16	17	15	18
15	17	I Think Of You - The Merseybeats					17	18	18	17	15
16	18	Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby					18	25	16	18	17
18	19	Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers					19	22	19	22	16
24	20	Move Over Darling - Doris Day					20	21	20	19	23
17	21	Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes					21	20	22	21	22
21	22	Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield					22	23	21	24	19
25	23	My Boy Lollipop - Millie					23	15	25	28	27
22	24	Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison					24	26	24	29	24
NEW	25	Mocking Bird Hill - The Migil Five						17		30
27	26	All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles					26=		23	27
NEW	27	Everything's Alright - The Mojos					26=		26	20
28	28	If He Tells You - Adam Faith					26=	27		23	25
23	29	Needles And Pins - The Searchers					25	30	30	26	21
NEW	30	New Orleans - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen					30		27	25	30
		Juliet - The Four Pennies						24
		I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers					26=		28		28
		King Of Kings - Ezz Reco and The Launchers						28
		The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones							29
		Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd									26
		Only You - Mark Wynter						29
		As Usual - Brenda Lee									29

[MrTibbs]

Thanks for those links Robbie. Much appreciated.

[MrTibbs]

Yes Robin, No 1 in all fairness has to be clearly what is No 1 in most charts. In the case of the Beatles above they were No 1 in MM NME DISC and only denied No 1 in the Ultimate Chart by being No 8 in RR, the chart with the least store returns. So this rule will consistently apply through all the years where any single tops all charts except just one.

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Since no one has said anything yet, I'll ask you Brian: are you creating a special rule for #1 on your Ultimate chart?

[Robbie]

What you say is spot on Graham and that is really revealing about Alan Freemans shows being tightly scripted. Robbie I'd be really interested in reading that Billboard article , any idea where I can find it ?
Caroline and Luxembourg, how I loved them both. I'm getting nostalgic now lol.

I posted a link to two of the articles, from the Billboard issues dated 10 August 1968 and 19 October 1968. There are a couple more which I'll see if I can find. The links to those two articles from August and October 1968 are in a post I made in August 2018

https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...78#post9420378

Incidentally I have a feeling that the BBC representative mentioned in the Billboard issue dated 10 August 1968 and whose name is given as Robin Scott may be the same Robin Scott who had a massive hit as M with 'Pop Muzik' in 1979. It seems he did work for the BBC for a while around the late 60s and early 70s. If it's not him then it's a coincidence.

[MrTibbs]

What you say is spot on Graham and that is really revealing about Alan Freemans shows being tightly scripted. Robbie I'd be really interested in reading that Billboard article , any idea where I can find it ?
Caroline and Luxembourg, how I loved them both. I'm getting nostalgic now lol.

[Splodj]

At least the BBC ignored RR and put 'Can't Buy Me Love' at number one, and I can remember it was played a lot on the Light Programme that weekend. Radio Caroline had just arrived and didn't even have it on board.

George Martin is praised for spotting The Beatles talent when others rejected them, but before he signed them they passed a BBC audition and had appeared on two programmes. They went on to record 30 songs for the BBC that they never released on disc.

There were a lot of things wrong with the BBC but they did do a lot of good things. And as Robbie has pointed out Radio 1 was using the BBC's own old charts on the retrospective POTP in the 90's. It was only after the cull of the old DJs and when POTP transferred to Radio 2 that they changed.