Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined
Collapse
X
-
Agree about the both sides issue, which we discussed on another thread. Effectively it is applying the EP solution.
But when you do the 50s you are probably going to need a changeover date to that system, which I have suggested could be March 1958.
Leave a comment:
-
Thanks for your thoughts membranemusic. The problem with allocating points to both though means the record gets more than its fair share of points, eg, the example you give on January 5th 1963. Maximum points a record can achieve is 30, so if you allocate 28 points to The Next Time and 25 to Bachelor Boy you get 53 points so this obviously doesn't work, and if you simply add extra points to compensate this is subjective and open to interpretation and therefore inconsistency . I believe taking an average of all the other charts which combined the titles does give an acceptable result as the average will fall within the parameters of the other charts and therefore be reliable.
I am enjoying your input and comments though.
Leave a comment:
-
Hello MrTibbs
Yes, apologies, I drafted my response on methodology but had to wait for posting. So I appreciate that you have sales criteria in addition to points.
It’s great to see No. 21-30, which were not broadcast at that time.
I am not sure the BBC were bothered with a tiebreaker most of the time – just mild embarrassment at a joint position. There were plenty of joint positions after 1964 dates you mention.
Regarding double –sided hits, mrtibbs, one method not used by the BBC is to allocate a small number of points to the lesser-selling side and add them to the NME A-side, but subject to an upper limit, as the average of the other 3 charts might under-compensate on some occasions. Just saying….. It gets especially tricky with “Next Time”/”Bachelor Boy” in 62/63.
Keep on please.
Leave a comment:
-
Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 2nd May 1964.
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending May 2nd 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30 4 1 Don't Throw Your Love Away - The Searchers 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 A World Without Love - Peter and Gordon 2 1 2 3 1 2 3 I Believe - The Bachelors 3 3 3 2 3 5 4 My Boy Lollipop - Millie 4 4 4 4 5 3 5 Can't Buy Me Love - The Beatles 5 5 5 5 4 6 6 I Love You Because - Jim Reeves 6 6 6 6 6 13 7 Don't Let The Sun Catch You Crying - Gerry and Pacemakers 7 7 8 9 7 9 8 Move Over Darling - Doris Day 8 8 9 8 8 18 9 Juliet - The Four Pennies 9 9 10 7 12 11 10 Everything's Alright - The Mojos 10 13 7 10 9 12 11 Mocking Bird Hill - The Migil Five 11 12 11 11 10 15 12 Hubble Bubble Toil And Trouble - Manfred Mann 12 11 14 13 11 17 13 Walk On By - Dionne Warwick 13 10 13 15 15 7 14 Tell Me When - The Applejacks 14 18 12 12 14 10 15 Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones 15 19 16 16 13 8 16 Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas 16 20 15 14 16 20 17 Don't Turn Around - The Merseybeats 17= 14 18 19 17 30 18 A Little Loving - The Fourmost 17= 17 19 18 19 NEW 19 It's Over - Roy Orbison 20 15 21 17 14 20 Just One Look - The Hollies 19 24 17 21 18 24 21 Baby Let Me Take You Home - The Animals 21 15 23 26 21 16 22 Good Golly Miss Molly - The Swinging Blue Jeans 23 25 20 23 20 NEW 23 Constantly - Cliff Richard 24 22 22 22 30 27 24 Hi-Heel Sneakers - Tommy Tucker 25 27 25 24 23 NEW 25 If I Loved You - Richard Anthony 26 26 26 25 28 NEW 26 Angry At The Big Oak Tree - Frank Ifield 27 27 27 27 25 19 27 That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney 28 24 30 22 NEW 28 Non Ho L'Eta Per Amarti - Gigliola Cinquetti 29 21 30 25 29 Diane - The Bachelors 30 29 29 26 NEW 30 The Spartans - Sounds Incorporated 28 The Rolling Stones (LP) - The Rolling Stones 22 23 20 Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows 24 Think - Brenda Lee 29 27 I Will - Billy Fury 30 28 Baby It's You - Dave Berry 30 Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley 29
Leave a comment:
-
Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 25th April 1964. Enjoy.The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 25th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30 1 1 A World Without Love - Peter and Gordon 1 1 1 1 1 3 2 I Believe - The Bachelors 2 2 2 2 3 2 3 Can't Buy Me Love - The Beatles 3 3 3 3 2 12 4 Don't Throw Your Love Away - The Searchers 4 3 4 4 4 8 5 My Boy Lollipop - Millie 5 5 5 5 5 6 6 I Love You Because - Jim Reeves 6 6 6 6 6 5 7 Tell Me When - The Applejacks 7 7 8 7 7 4 8 Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas 8 9 7 9 9 11 9 Move Over Darling - Doris Day 9 8 9 8 11 7 10 Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones 10 11 11 10 8 13 11 Everything's Alright - The Mojos 11 13 10 11 12 15 12 Mocking Bird Hill - The Migil Five 12 10 13 12 13 24 13 Don't Let The Sun Catch You Crying - Gerry and Pacemakers 14 11 14 13 17 9 14 Just One Look - The Hollies 13 16 12 15 10 23 15 Hubble Bubble Toil And Trouble - Manfred Mann 15 15 16 14 16 14 16 Good Golly Miss Molly - The Swinging Blue Jeans 16 17 15 18 14 27 17 Walk On By - Dionne Warwick 19 14 19 16 25 21 18 Juliet - The Four Pennies 17 19 18 17 18 10 19 That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney 18 21 17 19 15 NEW 20 Don't Turn Around - The Merseybeats 20 18 21 20 24 17 21 Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows 21 22 20 21 20 18 22 Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley 23 24 22 30 22 16 23 Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five 23 27 25 23 23 NEW 24 Baby Let Me Take You Home - The Animals 26= 19 27 29 29 20 25 Diane - The Bachelors 26= 29 23 28 21 19 26 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 25 24 25 19 RE 27 Hi-Heel Sneakers - Tommy Tucker 28 25 28 24 28 28 28 Think - Brenda Lee 29 26 29 27 26 22 29 New Orleans - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen 30 26 27 NEW 30 A Little Loving - The Fourmost 28 30 The Rolling Stones (LP) - The Rolling Stones 22 23 22 If I Loved You - Richard Anthony 26 Angry At The Big Oak Tree - Frank Ifield 29 Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby 30 Last edited by MrTibbs; Wed June 24, 2020, 13:43.
Leave a comment:
-
According to my calculations, on BBC scoring if a record is top in 3 of the charts it will score best unless it is at least as low as number 5 in the 4th chart. There are 4 more occasions in the next 12 months when RR had a record below 5 which the others had at number 1.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by MrTibbs View PostGuys, do you find it helpful to see all the music paper charts and the BBC chart side by side to make comparisons ?
Leave a comment:
-
Hey guys, I always enjoy your feedback. Thanks membranemusic for your very positive comments on my other thread. I really enjoyed working on that musical tapestry to its completion and am now equally engrossed in this fascinating and addictive thread. I read yours and Splodj's comments above. I outlined my methodology away back at the start of this thread and you will see that I address your compiler issues there membranemusic as these are all valid considerations.
As you mention and Splodj the BBC calculations were not the most accurate hence why I went back to the drawing board on calculation using just Top 30 positions and also added the individual music papers' store returns to further enhance robustness .
I am really pleased with the outcome. As you can see it is not littered with ties. In the 19 weeks I have thus so far compiled with my method there have only been 2 ties, both at the very bottom end of the chart which I separated by using MM positions as it has the largest store return.
The BBC's own policy on ties varied through the years so was not consistent.
Continue to enjoy the chart guys as the Ultimate Averaged Chart is probably the most accurate we will ever get to a true chart of the time. I use an excell spreadsheet to assist with this to ensure accuracy with calculations. I owe a debt to my buddy RokinRobin for his assistance in developing this spreadsheet for me to work with.
- 1 like
Leave a comment:
-
Membranemusic,
In your re-calculations did you find that the BBC were adopting a tiebreaker policy about this time.
In the recent charts I have found 4 cases where there were equal scores but the BBC have not given equal positions.
On 4-Apr: Bachelors/Stones (4/5) and Applejacks/DC5 (9/10). On 11-Apr: Reeves/Stones (6/7). On 18th Apr Searchers/SBJ (12/13).
In each case the record going down the chart has been given the lower position.
Is this a deliberate new policy? There hasn't been a tie in the Top 20 since 7th March.
There have been ties in the 21-30 section but this was only for internal use. Those 4 tieing at 26 on 4-Apr all have different scores - I think an indication that they didn't bother much about accuracy at the bottom end.
Leave a comment:
-
Hello
I would also like to pass my congrats to MrTibbs for his Record Mirror posts – the dealer charts - like Tutankhamun!
In doing the BBC charts, this is an interesting endeavour.
I certainly do not want to 'rock the boat' etc., but I have some observations;
As a weekly chart-watcher since 1962, I was a keen follower of the BBC Master chart, to the extent I took it upon myself eventually to re-calculate the occasional wayward BBC chart compilations. I have all the BBC charts (and most of the calculations) from July 1963 to February 1969. Before July 1963 Messrs Jacobs and Freeman were often coy about Nos. 11-20, hence not complete until then. I also have the calculations of all subsequent weeks from February 1969 until to October 1996.
I am pleased to say your 1/2/64 chart is largely the same.
I think a compiler would have to bear several points in mind:- Start date of 28/9/57 [BBC], or 1955?
- End date of 8/2/69 [BBC], or when there ceased to be any bona fide industry journal rivals to MW [1996]? I am aware of the points-of-view.
- You will have to decide how to treat joint positions: mathematically logical, yet irrational [e.g. 10/3/63 or 28/3/65, where the BBC chart is joint-crazy];
- You will have to decide how to treat double-sided hits, as the NME split the sales of A-side and B-side on up to 70 singles between 1952 and 1969, as did MM for a while;
- You will have to decide how to treat EPs, as RR excluded them from the SP chart because they had their own EP chart;
- You will have to decide how to treat LPs, as the NME included them in their SP chart from time to time, despite having their own LP chart;
- You will have to decide how to treat different editions of the same recording on the rare moments when 2 labels had hits with exactly the same recording, and RR separated the sales.
- You may find that 30 points for No. 1, 29 points for 2, etc. works better than 1 point for No.1 etc when compensatory calculations are required.
Half the fun is the calculation. Good luck!
Leave a comment:
-
Greetings Pop Pickers !
Thanks guys above for your response to my question.
Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 18th April 1964.
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 18th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30 2 1 A World Without Love - Peter and Gordon 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 Can't Buy Me Love - The Beatles 2 1 2 3 1 3 3 I Believe - The Bachelors 3 3 3 2 3 4 4 Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas 4 4 4 4 4 7 5 Tell Me When - The Applejacks 5 5 5 5 7 8 6 I Love You Because - Jim Reeves 6 7 6 6 5 6 7 Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones 7 9 7 7 8 14 8 My Boy Lollipop - Millie 8 6 9 8 10 5 9 Just One Look - The Hollies 9 10 8 10 6 9 10 That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney 10 12 10 11 9 15 11 Move Over Darling - Doris Day 11 11 12 12 12 NEW 12 Don't Throw Your Love Away - The Searchers 12 8 14 9 20 18 13 Everything's Alright - The Mojos 14 15 11 13 13 11 14 Good Golly Miss Molly - The Swinging Blue Jeans 13 13 13 14 11 21 15 Mocking Bird Hill - The Migil Five 16 14 16 15 17 10 16 Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five 15 16 17 16 14 12 17 Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows 17 17 15 17 19 17 18 Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley 19 23 18 21 18 13 19 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 18 26 19 18 15 16 20 Diane - The Bachelors 20 30 20 23 16 27 21 Juliet - The Four Pennies 24 19 27 25 24 22 New Orleans - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen 21 21 22 24 NEW 23 Hubble Bubble Toil And Trouble - Manfred Mann 22 21 29 20 29 NEW 24 Don't Let The Sun Catch You Crying - Gerry and The Pacemakers 23 20 30 19 19 25 Boys Cry - Eden Kane 26= 26 24 23 20 26 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 25 22 29 21 NEW 27 Walk On By - Dionne Warwick 26= 18 24 28 28 Think - Brenda Lee 28 25 26 27 27 23 29 Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers 30 23 25 22 30 Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby 29 25 22 Don't Turn Around - The Merseybeats 22 28 Hi-Heel Sneakers - Tommy Tucker 24 26 If He Tells You - Adam Faith 28 26 Baby Let Me Take You Home - The Animals 28 Angry At The Big Oak Tree - Frank Ifield 29 30 Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield 28 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 30
Leave a comment:
-
Yes, I like the layout as it makes it much easier to compare each music paper / BBC chart to the Ultimate Averaged Chart.
Leave a comment:
-
Guys, do you find it helpful to see all the music paper charts and the BBC chart side by side to make comparisons ?
Leave a comment:
-
Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 11th April 1964.
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 11th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30 1 1 Can't Buy Me Love - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 6 2 A World Without Love - Peter and Gordon 2 2 2 2 4 4 3 I Believe - The Bachelors 3 2 3 3 3 2 4 Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas 4 4 4 4 2 3 5 Just One Look - The Hollies 5 5 5 5 5 5 6 Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones 7 7 7 8 6 9 7 Tell Me When - The Applejacks 8 8 6 6 9 7 8 I Love You Because - Jim Reeves 6 6 8 7 7 8 9 That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney 9 9 9 9 8 10 10 Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five 10 12 10 10 10 14 11 Good Golly Miss Molly - The Swinging Blue Jeans 11 11 11 11 14 13 12 Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows 13 15 12 13 12 11 13 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 12 14 14 12 11 23 14 My Boy Lollipop - Millie 14 10 16 15 16 20 15 Move Over Darling - Doris Day 15 16 13 17 15 12 16 Diane - The Bachelors 16 19 15 14 13 16 17 Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley 17 17 17 18 17 27 18 Everything's Alright - The Mojos 18 18 18 16 18 15 19 Boys Cry - Eden Kane 19 20 20 19 21 17 20 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 20 22 19 20 20 25 21 Mocking Bird Hill - The Migil Five 21= 13 24 22 30 18 22 Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby 21= 28 21 21 19 19 23 Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers 23 30 22 23 22 30 24 New Orleans - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen 24 23 24 24 21 25 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 25 25 27 28 26 22 26 Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield 26 25 29 23 NEW 27 Juliet - The Four Pennies 29 21 NEW 28 Think - Brenda Lee 27 24 26 28 29 If He Tells You - Adam Faith 28 26 25 NEW 30 Hi-Heel Sneakers - Tommy Tucker 23 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 30 28 27 Top 6 No 3 - Various Artists 26 It's So Nice - The Gamblers 27 Only You - Mark Wynter 25 Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison 30 28 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 29 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 30 27 King Of Kings - Ezz Reco and The Launchers 29 Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 29
Leave a comment:
-
Greetings Pop Pickers ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending April 4th 1964.
The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending April 4th 1964 BBC NME MM Disc RR Last This Chart Chart Chart Chart Chart Week Week Title and Artist Total Chart Positions 30 1 1 Can't Buy Me Love - The Beatles 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 Little Children - Billy J Kramer and The Dakotas 2 3 2 2 2 3 3 Just One Look - The Hollies 3 4 3 3 3 9 4 I Believe - The Bachelors 4 2 4 6 6 4 5 Not Fade Away - The Rolling Stones 5 5 5 4 4 14 6 A World Without Love - Peter and Gordon 7 5 6 7 13 6 7 I Love You Because - Jim Reeves 6 7 9 5 5 8 8 That Girl Belongs To Yesterday - Gene Pitney 8 8 7 8 9 11 9 Tell Me When - The Applejacks 9 9 8 9 11 5 10 Bits And Pieces - The Dave Clark Five 10 10 10 10 7 7 11 Anyone Who Had A Heart - Cilla Black 11 11 11 11 10 10 12 Diane - The Bachelors 12 12 13 13 8 13 13 Theme For Young Lovers - The Shadows 13 14 12 12 14 19 14 Good Golly Miss Molly - The Swinging Blue Jeans 15 13 14 16 20 12 15 Boys Cry - Eden Kane 14 19 15 14 12 20 16 Viva Las Vegas - Elvis Presley 16 16 17 15 18 15 17 I Think Of You - The Merseybeats 17 18 18 17 15 16 18 Let Me Go Lover - Kathy Kirby 18 25 16 18 17 18 19 Over You - Freddie and The Dreamers 19 22 19 22 16 24 20 Move Over Darling - Doris Day 20 21 20 19 23 17 21 Candy Man - Brian Poole and The Tremeloes 21 20 22 21 22 21 22 Stay Awhile - Dusty Springfield 22 23 21 24 19 25 23 My Boy Lollipop - Millie 23 15 25 28 27 22 24 Borne On The Wind - Roy Orbison 24 26 24 29 24 NEW 25 Mocking Bird Hill - The Migil Five 17 30 27 26 All My Loving (EP) - The Beatles 26= 23 27 NEW 27 Everything's Alright - The Mojos 26= 26 20 28 28 If He Tells You - Adam Faith 26= 27 23 25 23 29 Needles And Pins - The Searchers 25 30 30 26 21 NEW 30 New Orleans - Bern Elliot and The Fenmen 30 27 25 30 Juliet - The Four Pennies 24 I'm The One - Gerry and The Pacemakers 26= 28 28 King Of Kings - Ezz Reco and The Launchers 28 The Rolling Stones (EP) - The Rolling Stones 29 Eight By Ten - Ken Dodd 26 Only You - Mark Wynter 29 As Usual - Brenda Lee 29
Leave a comment:
-
Yes Robin, No 1 in all fairness has to be clearly what is No 1 in most charts. In the case of the Beatles above they were No 1 in MM NME DISC and only denied No 1 in the Ultimate Chart by being No 8 in RR, the chart with the least store returns. So this rule will consistently apply through all the years where any single tops all charts except just one.
Leave a comment:
-
Since no one has said anything yet, I'll ask you Brian: are you creating a special rule for #1 on your Ultimate chart?
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by MrTibbs View PostWhat you say is spot on Graham and that is really revealing about Alan Freemans shows being tightly scripted. Robbie I'd be really interested in reading that Billboard article , any idea where I can find it ?
Caroline and Luxembourg, how I loved them both. I'm getting nostalgic now lol.
https://www.ukmix.org/forum/chart-di...78#post9420378
Incidentally I have a feeling that the BBC representative mentioned in the Billboard issue dated 10 August 1968 and whose name is given as Robin Scott may be the same Robin Scott who had a massive hit as M with 'Pop Muzik' in 1979. It seems he did work for the BBC for a while around the late 60s and early 70s. If it's not him then it's a coincidence.Last edited by Robbie; Tue June 23, 2020, 01:29.
Leave a comment:
-
What you say is spot on Graham and that is really revealing about Alan Freemans shows being tightly scripted. Robbie I'd be really interested in reading that Billboard article , any idea where I can find it ?
Caroline and Luxembourg, how I loved them both. I'm getting nostalgic now lol.
Leave a comment:
-
At least the BBC ignored RR and put 'Can't Buy Me Love' at number one, and I can remember it was played a lot on the Light Programme that weekend. Radio Caroline had just arrived and didn't even have it on board.
George Martin is praised for spotting The Beatles talent when others rejected them, but before he signed them they passed a BBC audition and had appeared on two programmes. They went on to record 30 songs for the BBC that they never released on disc.
There were a lot of things wrong with the BBC but they did do a lot of good things. And as Robbie has pointed out Radio 1 was using the BBC's own old charts on the retrospective POTP in the 90's. It was only after the cull of the old DJs and when POTP transferred to Radio 2 that they changed.
Leave a comment:
Leave a comment: