The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

[kjell]

The same ten reminds me of a line in Everly Brothers’ hit That’s old fashioned: That’s the way love should be (Rather that’s the way charts should have been)

[MrTibbs]

NEW 21 Short Fat Fannie - Larry Williams

No comment needed.

I wondered who would be the first to comment on that

[brian05]

NEW 21 Short Fat Fannie - Larry Williams

No comment needed.

[kingofskiffle]

This is interesting as it's so rare to fid the chart papers agreeing to this extent. I wonder if this week the same shops supplied all three papers?

[MrTibbs]

A good consistent Top Ten here. All three papers agree on half of the positions and more or less agree on the other half. The same ten records appear on all three charts.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 7th 1957

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 7th 1957							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	25	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
1	1	Diana - Paul Anka					1	1	1	4500
2	2	Love Letters In The Sand - Pat Boone (A)					2	2	2	4350
5	3	Last Train To San Fernando - Johnny Duncan and The Blue Grass Boys					3	5	3	4150
3	4	All Shook Up - Elvis Presley					5	3	4	4010
4	5	Island In The Sun - Harry Belafonte					4	4	5	3990
10	6	Water Water / A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele					7	7	6	3660
8	7	With All My Heart - Petula Clark					6	8	9	3520
7	8	Bye Bye Love - The Everly Brothers					8	6	8	3500
6	9	Teddy Bear - Elvis Presley					10	9	7	3355
14	10	Wandering Eyes - Charlie Gracie (A)					9	12	11	3105
17	11	Paralysed - Elvis Presley					14	9	10	2915
9	12	We Will Make Love - Russ Hamilton					12	14	13	2740
11	13	Fabulous - Charlie Gracie					14	12	12	2720
15	14	Little Darlin' - The Diamonds					12	15	14	2655
13	15	Shiralee - Tommy Steele					11	16	16	2575
12	16	Gamblin' Man / Putting On The Style - Lonnie Donegan					16	16	15	2310
24	17	Tammy - Debbie Reynolds					17		17	1750
16	18	Start Movin' - Sal Mineo					18		20	1505
19	19	All Star Hit Parade (Vol 2) - Various Artists					25		19	1110
21	20	Dark Moon - Tony Brent					19	18		1105
18	21	Butterfingers - Tommy Steele					26		18	1105
RE	22	Any Old Iron - Peter Sellers					24	20		730
14	23	I Love You So Much It Hurts - Charlie Gracie (B)					20			715
22	24	Around The World - Ronnie Hilton					21			650
24	25	In The Middle Of An Island - The King Brothers					22			585
NEW	26	Scarlet Ribbons - Harry Belafonte					23			520
28	27	Bernadine - Pat Boone (B)						19		300
NEW	28	Build Your Love - Johnnie Ray					27			260
23	28	I'm Gonna Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter - Billy Williams					27			260
NEW	30	You, You Romeo - Shirley Bassey					29			130
		Forgotten Dreams - Leroy Anderson					30			65
20		Start Movin' - Terry Dene					30			65
		A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele						9
26		In The Middle Of A Dark Dark Night / Sweet Stuff - Guy Mitchell
27		Lucille - Little Richard
29		A White Sport Coat - The King Brothers
30		Around The World - Bing Crosby

[MrTibbs]

This looks a tricky one either way. On the one hand I wouldn't like to effectively change the NME number one; on the other hand we know that NME would have combined it at least as high as 2. My gut says give it an NME 2, but the decision needs to be consistent with a fair set of rules!

I agree, NME placed it at #2 anyway so it got fairly represented I think in the final UAC result.

[MrTibbs]

Not a prob Robin the Chartwatch data proved just as useful as I detailed above but your points were valid nonetheless.

[Splodj]

25th October 1958. NME splits Marino Marini, Come Prima at #2 and Volare at #16. The Chartwatch totals would give this 76 points placing it at #1 on NME when the combined single is #8 on MM, and #6 on both Disc and RM.

This looks a tricky one either way. On the one hand I wouldn't like to effectively change the NME number one; on the other hand we know that NME would have combined it at least as high as 2. My gut says give it an NME 2, but the decision needs to be consistent with a fair set of rules!

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Robin that evidence you present is most interesting and thought provoking. It would be interesting to compare the methodology you describe to the methodology I currently use in practise.

Do you have a copy of the 1976 data relationship of sales vs. chart position to a chart of the 50s / 60s, where there were multiple split sides you can share and I will run some more comparisons ?

Thanks for the idea and your continuing mathematical solutions.

Brian, sorry, no I don't have any 50s / 60s sales data vs chart positions. I seem to think there may have been a magazine or newspaper article posted here on UKMix that shows such info for a specific week, maybe during the mid 60s. I assume the earliest BMRB report would be from Feb/Mar 1969, if they were doing those reports that early on. Some here have more BMRB reports than just the 1976 one in the Cable book. I keep saying it would be a great find to get more of these BMRB reports so we can look at more sales vs. chart position data. Maybe they'll surface one day...

[MrTibbs]

That column in Chartwatch 58-66 is the one for albums though. Using the Chartwatch Singles column 52-90 would give a total of 47 so a #3. BUT this system doesn't always work.

Again using Chartwatch say I was using the chart I have just finished this evening, 25th October 1958. NME splits Marino Marini, Come Prima at #2 and Volare at #16. The Chartwatch totals would give this 76 points placing it at #1 on NME when the combined single is #8 on MM, and #6 on both Disc and RM. So this system can also prove unreliable.

Again on the tied #1's being given 1.5. They are #1 so deserve the points as that is what the printed chart says. Starting to dissect positions is the thin end of the wedge that leads to subjectivity rather than objectivity. At the end of the day it's the chart positions that count.

[Splodj]

If I understand that Chartwatch table correctly it provides a column for 1958-66 which is the earliest period. In this, numbers 9 & 10 would give a combined position nearest to number 4.

Personally I think that if you do this you should move down a position the NME records that were 4 to 8.

It comes back to the situation we had recently. If you say that in MM Johnnie was 1, then Lonnie must have been 2, and vice versa. If you can't decide then they should both be 1.5.

This also refers back to the point that was made early in the thread, that mathematically it is more correct to say that a tied 1 should be 1.5 each and not 1 each.

[MrTibbs]

Robin that evidence you present is most interesting and thought provoking. It would be interesting to compare the methodology you describe to the methodology I currently use in practise.

Do you have a copy of the 1976 data relationship of sales vs. chart position to a chart of the 50s / 60s, where there were multiple split sides you can share and I will run some more comparisons ?

Thanks for the idea and your continuing mathematical solutions.

[MrTibbs]

According to 45cat 'A Handful of Songs' was the B-side of 'Water Water' in the UK, but I concede it is a somewhat nebulous issue whether a record is double A sided.

Looks like we are in a period when only MM is splitting sides.

Oh don't get too excited yet NME will be back splitting again soon too

[RokinRobinOfLocksley]

Concerning how to combine split sides / split chart positions into one position, here is one alternative idea that jumped into my brain.

I’ve posted previously here and there about Michael Cable’s book “The Pop Industry Inside Out” that Alan Smith had recommended to us. In the appendix, Cable includes data from weekly BMRB reports, that show the number of records sold per chart position, for several specific weeks back in 1976. Of course every week in chart history is unique, but one can assume there are general patterns at play.

So in looking at Cable’s BMRB data on pages 219-222, one can see the sales for weeks 14 thru 17 of 1976, where week 17 = the May 8 chart. So let’s look at an example, applying this 1976 data relationship of sales vs. chart position to a chart of the 50s / 60s, where there were multiple split sides.

One that stands out for me is The Yardbirds double sided hit “Evil Hearted You / Still I’m Sad”. Looking at the Tiscali spreadsheet, it says this combo record peaked at #2 on MM, #3 on RR, Disc only listed “Evil” which peaked at #2, while NME had them split with “Evil” peaking at #10, and “Sad” peaking at #9.

Going to the NME peak week of Nov 6, 1965, “Evil” was at its peak of #10, “Sad” was at its peak of #9. (MM both were at #8, RR both at #3, Disc only “Evil” at #6)

So doing the math, combining the records sales of chart positions 9 and 10 (for 3 separate weeks in 1976), this gives a combo NME chart ranking that is closest to position #3. More specifically, week 17 gives a chart position of #3.125, week 16 = #2.892, and week 15 = #2.833.

Brian’s UAC assigned an NME chart position of #5.6 for this combo record (from averaging the other charts positions together), giving a UAC total points = 15710 which placed “Evil/Sad” at UAC chart position #6.

Using the alt method, the 3 specific numbers above average out to an NME chart position of #2.95. If 2.95 is used, then the UAC points would total 16240 which still puts “Evil/Sad” at UAC chart position #6, as it couldn’t rise up to position #5 with 16725 total points.

So in this particular case, the difference in UAC total points of 530 didn’t affect the UAC chart position outcome. But it’s possible/probable this alt method would affect the outcomes of other weeks.

So Brian’s method is of course excellent in approximating a combo chart position for split sides. This alt method is just another perspective.

Just a thought. Rock on…

[Splodj]

According to 45cat 'A Handful of Songs' was the B-side of 'Water Water' in the UK, but I concede it is a somewhat nebulous issue whether a record is double A sided.

Looks like we are in a period when only MM is splitting sides.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 31st 1957

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 31st 1957							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	25	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
5	1	Diana - Paul Anka					1	2	1	4475
3	2	Love Letters In The Sand - Pat Boone (A)					2	3	2	4325
1	3	All Shook Up - Elvis Presley					3	1	3	4250
2	4	Island In The Sun - Harry Belafonte					4	4	4	4050
7	5	Last Train To San Fernando - Johnny Duncan and The Blue Grass Boys					5	6	6	3815
4	6	Teddy Bear - Elvis Presley					7	7	5	3720
6	7	Bye Bye Love - The Everly Brothers					6	5	7	3715
11	8	With All My Heart - Petula Clark					9	9	9	3300
9	9	We Will Make Love - Russ Hamilton					10	8	10	3200
17	10	Water Water / A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele					13	9	8	3100
12	11	Fabulous - Charlie Gracie					8	12	13	3050
8	12	Gamblin' Man / Putting On The Style - Lonnie Donegan					11	11	12	2940
NEW	13	Shiralee - Tommy Steele					12	14	14	2680
26	14	Wandering Eyes / I Love You So Much It Hurts - Charlie Gracie					14	16	11	2680
10	15	Little Darlin' - The Diamonds					15	17	16	2290
13	16	Start Movin' - Sal Mineo					18	13	15	2255
NEW	17	Paralysed - Elvis Presley					16	18	18	2080
14	18	Butterfingers - Tommy Steele					20		17	1555
15	19	All Star Hit Parade (Vol 2) - Various Artists					21		19	1370
18	20	Start Movin' - Terry Dene					26		20	985
19	21	Dark Moon - Tony Brent					17			910
16	22	Around The World - Ronnie Hilton					19			780
20	23	I'm Gonna Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter - Billy Williams					22			585
NEW	24	Tammy - Debbie Reynolds					23			520
27	24	In The Middle Of An Island - The King Brothers					23			520
28	26	In The Middle Of A Dark Dark Night / Sweet Stuff - Guy Mitchell					25			390
23	27	Lucille - Little Richard						19		300
NEW	28	Bernadine - Pat Boone (B)						20		275
25	29	A White Sport Coat - The King Brothers					27			260
22	30	Around The World - Bing Crosby					28			195
		Butterfly - Andy Williams					29			130
24		When I Fall In Love - Nat King Cole					30			65
		A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele						15
21		Yes Tonight Josephine - Johnnie Ray
29		I Like Your Kind Of Love - Andy Williams
30		Fire Down Below - Shirley Bassey

[kingofskiffle]

Now I want to listen to both back to back!

[MrTibbs]

Agree. Split sides charting disadvantaged other records that otherwise would have charted. Ideally I would have combined them all into one place but this was not viable. There is no way to ascertain just where a split sided hit combined would place on the chart concerned. The BBC just took the highest of the two charting sides and used that but to my mind that did not fairly represent what may have been a higher chart placing if combined.

Hence why I took the difficult decision to use the criteria I do for dealing with split sides, it's not ideal and I am the first to admit that, but I think it is at least a better method than that used by the BBC.

For those who need reminding the system I use is as follows.
Where the majority of music charts split the sides I do the same and take an average from these to award to the outlier.
Similarly, where the majority of music papers combine sides I again take an average from these to award to the outlier (if the split side affects the overall UAC position outcome)
Like I say not ideal but this at least gives a better approximate of a likely chart position in these circumstances.

[Splodj]

I was whistling Putting On The Style and morphed into Supercalifragilistic. They are quite similar!

MM's double siding this week is a good example of how it distorts by pushing out records that should be in the 20.

[MrTibbs]

I'm still kinda familiar with Tommy Steele's 'Handful Of Songs'. I remember it because my dad whistled this tune incessantly when I was young. Later when I listened to the actual record I realised that the whistling melody I was familiar with was whistled in the actual song.

Ah those were the days when it was popular for guys to whistle to the popular tunes of the day. We have lost that along the way.

[MrTibbs]

Greetings Pop Pickers !

Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 24th 1957

Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 24th 1957							NME	MM	RM	Total
Last	This		The Sound Survey			Stores	65	25	60	Points
Week	Week		The Top 30 Singles Chart					TOP	30	Scored
1	1	All Shook Up - Elvis Presley					1	1	1	4500
4	2	Island In The Sun - Harry Belafonte					3	2	2	4285
3	3	Love Letters In The Sand - Pat Boone					2	3	3	4265
2	4	Teddy Bear - Elvis Presley					5	4	4	3985
11	5	Diana - Paul Anka					4	5	5	3965
8	6	Bye Bye Love - The Everly Brothers					7	6	6	3685
9	7	Last Train To San Fernando - Johnny Duncan and The Blue Grass Boys					6	7	7	3665
5	8	Gamblin' Man / Putting On The Style - Lonnie Donegan					8	10	8	3400
6	9	We Will Make Love - Russ Hamilton					10	8	10	3200
7	10	Little Darlin' - The Diamonds					11	9	9	3170
10	11	With All My Heart - Petula Clark					9	11	14	2950
22	12	Fabulous - Charlie Gracie					12	12	16	2610
14	13	Start Movin' - Sal Mineo					16	12	13	2530
12	14	Butterfingers - Tommy Steele					14	14	15	2490
15	15	All Star Hit Parade (Vol 2) - Various Artists					15		11	2240
18	16	Around The World - Ronnie Hilton					13	20	18	2225
30	17	Water Water / A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele					21		12	2153
17	18	Start Movin' - Terry Dene					20		17	1555
28	19	Dark Moon - Tony Brent					18	17		1195
24	20	I'm Gonna Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter - Billy Williams					24		20	1115
19	21	Yes Tonight Josephine - Johnnie Ray					27		19	980
13	22	Around The World - Bing Crosby					17			910
16	23	Lucille - Little Richard					23	16		895
20	24	When I Fall In Love - Nat King Cole					19			780
21	25	A White Sport Coat - The King Brothers					22			585
NEW	26	Wandering Eyes / I Love You So Much It Hurts - Charlie Gracie					24			455
26	27	In The Middle Of An Island - The King Brothers					26			325
RE	28	In The Middle Of A Dark Dark Night / Sweet Stuff - Guy Mitchell					28			195
26	29	I Like Your Kind Of Love - Andy Williams					29			130
NEW	30	Fire Down Below - Shirley Bassey					30			65
		Gamblin' Man - Lonnie Donegan						18
		Water Water - Tommy Steele						15
		A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele						18
23		Mr. Wonderful - Peggy Lee
24		Any Old Iron - Peter Sellers
29		Forgotten Dreams - Cyril Stapleton

[Metalweb]

The Record Business charts of the late 70s included a 'sales index' indicating the relative sales of each single.

Years ago I averaged out about 20 (I think) weekly charts and got proportions very close to the Chartwatch formula.

[MrTibbs]

I think those are all valid and realistic points you both make.

Splodj is spot on as I saw many examples of the case he makes in the post above in the RM early dealer returns. Often a #1 single that was #1 in most charts lost out to a single that was #2 in most charts because the points system separates chart positions on a much smaller margin than sales does and so the differential was negligible in the points system.
All it took was for the #1 single to rank a few places lower in a couple of rogue charts to lose the advantage. The points system failed also as it didn't reflect if the #1 single sold 1 copy or 1001 copies more than #2, the points margin remained the same, and so on down the chart line albeit in ever decreasing numbers of sales.

So yes I too think that is why the number of #1 singles in the points era changed hands more often. Sales truly reflected the differential between positions that points missed.

[Splodj]

As an example, I can imagine a situation where the top seller was actually number one in most stores but, on a linear points basis, usurped by a record that was number two in more stores. If they had known about the typical sales margin between one and two they might have modified their methods.