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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • kjell
    replied
    The same ten reminds me of a line in Everly Brothers’ hit That’s old fashioned: That’s the way love should be (Rather that’s the way charts should have been)

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by brian05 View Post
    NEW 21 Short Fat Fannie - Larry Williams

    No comment needed.
    I wondered who would be the first to comment on that

    Leave a comment:


  • brian05
    replied
    NEW 21 Short Fat Fannie - Larry Williams

    No comment needed.

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    replied
    This is interesting as it's so rare to fid the chart papers agreeing to this extent. I wonder if this week the same shops supplied all three papers?

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    A good consistent Top Ten here. All three papers agree on half of the positions and more or less agree on the other half. The same ten records appear on all three charts.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending September 7th 1957

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending September 7th 1957 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 25 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 Diana - Paul Anka 1 1 1 4500
    2 2 Love Letters In The Sand - Pat Boone (A) 2 2 2 4350
    5 3 Last Train To San Fernando - Johnny Duncan and The Blue Grass Boys 3 5 3 4150
    3 4 All Shook Up - Elvis Presley 5 3 4 4010
    4 5 Island In The Sun - Harry Belafonte 4 4 5 3990
    10 6 Water Water / A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele 7 7 6 3660
    8 7 With All My Heart - Petula Clark 6 8 9 3520
    7 8 Bye Bye Love - The Everly Brothers 8 6 8 3500
    6 9 Teddy Bear - Elvis Presley 10 9 7 3355
    14 10 Wandering Eyes - Charlie Gracie (A) 9 12 11 3105
    17 11 Paralysed - Elvis Presley 14 9 10 2915
    9 12 We Will Make Love - Russ Hamilton 12 14 13 2740
    11 13 Fabulous - Charlie Gracie 14 12 12 2720
    15 14 Little Darlin' - The Diamonds 12 15 14 2655
    13 15 Shiralee - Tommy Steele 11 16 16 2575
    12 16 Gamblin' Man / Putting On The Style - Lonnie Donegan 16 16 15 2310
    24 17 Tammy - Debbie Reynolds 17 17 1750
    16 18 Start Movin' - Sal Mineo 18 20 1505
    19 19 All Star Hit Parade (Vol 2) - Various Artists 25 19 1110
    21 20 Dark Moon - Tony Brent 19 18 1105
    18 21 Butterfingers - Tommy Steele 26 18 1105
    RE 22 Any Old Iron - Peter Sellers 24 20 730
    14 23 I Love You So Much It Hurts - Charlie Gracie (B) 20 715
    22 24 Around The World - Ronnie Hilton 21 650
    24 25 In The Middle Of An Island - The King Brothers 22 585
    NEW 26 Scarlet Ribbons - Harry Belafonte 23 520
    28 27 Bernadine - Pat Boone (B) 19 300
    NEW 28 Build Your Love - Johnnie Ray 27 260
    23 28 I'm Gonna Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter - Billy Williams 27 260
    NEW 30 You, You Romeo - Shirley Bassey 29 130
    Forgotten Dreams - Leroy Anderson 30 65
    20 Start Movin' - Terry Dene 30 65
    A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele 9
    26 In The Middle Of A Dark Dark Night / Sweet Stuff - Guy Mitchell
    27 Lucille - Little Richard
    29 A White Sport Coat - The King Brothers
    30 Around The World - Bing Crosby

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post

    This looks a tricky one either way. On the one hand I wouldn't like to effectively change the NME number one; on the other hand we know that NME would have combined it at least as high as 2. My gut says give it an NME 2, but the decision needs to be consistent with a fair set of rules!
    I agree, NME placed it at #2 anyway so it got fairly represented I think in the final UAC result.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    commented on 's reply
    Not a prob Robin the Chartwatch data proved just as useful as I detailed above but your points were valid nonetheless.

  • Splodj
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    25th October 1958. NME splits Marino Marini, Come Prima at #2 and Volare at #16. The Chartwatch totals would give this 76 points placing it at #1 on NME when the combined single is #8 on MM, and #6 on both Disc and RM.
    This looks a tricky one either way. On the one hand I wouldn't like to effectively change the NME number one; on the other hand we know that NME would have combined it at least as high as 2. My gut says give it an NME 2, but the decision needs to be consistent with a fair set of rules!

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
    Robin that evidence you present is most interesting and thought provoking. It would be interesting to compare the methodology you describe to the methodology I currently use in practise.

    Do you have a copy of the 1976 data relationship of sales vs. chart position to a chart of the 50s / 60s, where there were multiple split sides you can share and I will run some more comparisons ?

    Thanks for the idea and your continuing mathematical solutions.
    Brian, sorry, no I don't have any 50s / 60s sales data vs chart positions. I seem to think there may have been a magazine or newspaper article posted here on UKMix that shows such info for a specific week, maybe during the mid 60s. I assume the earliest BMRB report would be from Feb/Mar 1969, if they were doing those reports that early on. Some here have more BMRB reports than just the 1976 one in the Cable book. I keep saying it would be a great find to get more of these BMRB reports so we can look at more sales vs. chart position data. Maybe they'll surface one day...

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    That column in Chartwatch 58-66 is the one for albums though. Using the Chartwatch Singles column 52-90 would give a total of 47 so a #3. BUT this system doesn't always work.

    Again using Chartwatch say I was using the chart I have just finished this evening, 25th October 1958. NME splits Marino Marini, Come Prima at #2 and Volare at #16. The Chartwatch totals would give this 76 points placing it at #1 on NME when the combined single is #8 on MM, and #6 on both Disc and RM. So this system can also prove unreliable.

    Again on the tied #1's being given 1.5. They are #1 so deserve the points as that is what the printed chart says. Starting to dissect positions is the thin end of the wedge that leads to subjectivity rather than objectivity. At the end of the day it's the chart positions that count.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    If I understand that Chartwatch table correctly it provides a column for 1958-66 which is the earliest period. In this, numbers 9 & 10 would give a combined position nearest to number 4.

    Personally I think that if you do this you should move down a position the NME records that were 4 to 8.

    It comes back to the situation we had recently. If you say that in MM Johnnie was 1, then Lonnie must have been 2, and vice versa. If you can't decide then they should both be 1.5.

    This also refers back to the point that was made early in the thread, that mathematically it is more correct to say that a tied 1 should be 1.5 each and not 1 each.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Robin that evidence you present is most interesting and thought provoking. It would be interesting to compare the methodology you describe to the methodology I currently use in practise.

    Do you have a copy of the 1976 data relationship of sales vs. chart position to a chart of the 50s / 60s, where there were multiple split sides you can share and I will run some more comparisons ?

    Thanks for the idea and your continuing mathematical solutions.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Originally posted by Splodj View Post
    According to 45cat 'A Handful of Songs' was the B-side of 'Water Water' in the UK, but I concede it is a somewhat nebulous issue whether a record is double A sided.

    Looks like we are in a period when only MM is splitting sides.
    Oh don't get too excited yet NME will be back splitting again soon too

    Leave a comment:


  • RokinRobinOfLocksley
    replied
    Concerning how to combine split sides / split chart positions into one position, here is one alternative idea that jumped into my brain.

    I’ve posted previously here and there about Michael Cable’s book “The Pop Industry Inside Out” that Alan Smith had recommended to us. In the appendix, Cable includes data from weekly BMRB reports, that show the number of records sold per chart position, for several specific weeks back in 1976. Of course every week in chart history is unique, but one can assume there are general patterns at play.

    So in looking at Cable’s BMRB data on pages 219-222, one can see the sales for weeks 14 thru 17 of 1976, where week 17 = the May 8 chart. So let’s look at an example, applying this 1976 data relationship of sales vs. chart position to a chart of the 50s / 60s, where there were multiple split sides.

    One that stands out for me is The Yardbirds double sided hit “Evil Hearted You / Still I’m Sad”. Looking at the Tiscali spreadsheet, it says this combo record peaked at #2 on MM, #3 on RR, Disc only listed “Evil” which peaked at #2, while NME had them split with “Evil” peaking at #10, and “Sad” peaking at #9.

    Going to the NME peak week of Nov 6, 1965, “Evil” was at its peak of #10, “Sad” was at its peak of #9. (MM both were at #8, RR both at #3, Disc only “Evil” at #6)

    So doing the math, combining the records sales of chart positions 9 and 10 (for 3 separate weeks in 1976), this gives a combo NME chart ranking that is closest to position #3. More specifically, week 17 gives a chart position of #3.125, week 16 = #2.892, and week 15 = #2.833.

    Brian’s UAC assigned an NME chart position of #5.6 for this combo record (from averaging the other charts positions together), giving a UAC total points = 15710 which placed “Evil/Sad” at UAC chart position #6.

    Using the alt method, the 3 specific numbers above average out to an NME chart position of #2.95. If 2.95 is used, then the UAC points would total 16240 which still puts “Evil/Sad” at UAC chart position #6, as it couldn’t rise up to position #5 with 16725 total points.

    So in this particular case, the difference in UAC total points of 530 didn’t affect the UAC chart position outcome. But it’s possible/probable this alt method would affect the outcomes of other weeks.

    So Brian’s method is of course excellent in approximating a combo chart position for split sides. This alt method is just another perspective.

    Just a thought. Rock on…

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    According to 45cat 'A Handful of Songs' was the B-side of 'Water Water' in the UK, but I concede it is a somewhat nebulous issue whether a record is double A sided.

    Looks like we are in a period when only MM is splitting sides.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 31st 1957

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 31st 1957 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 25 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    5 1 Diana - Paul Anka 1 2 1 4475
    3 2 Love Letters In The Sand - Pat Boone (A) 2 3 2 4325
    1 3 All Shook Up - Elvis Presley 3 1 3 4250
    2 4 Island In The Sun - Harry Belafonte 4 4 4 4050
    7 5 Last Train To San Fernando - Johnny Duncan and The Blue Grass Boys 5 6 6 3815
    4 6 Teddy Bear - Elvis Presley 7 7 5 3720
    6 7 Bye Bye Love - The Everly Brothers 6 5 7 3715
    11 8 With All My Heart - Petula Clark 9 9 9 3300
    9 9 We Will Make Love - Russ Hamilton 10 8 10 3200
    17 10 Water Water / A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele 13 9 8 3100
    12 11 Fabulous - Charlie Gracie 8 12 13 3050
    8 12 Gamblin' Man / Putting On The Style - Lonnie Donegan 11 11 12 2940
    NEW 13 Shiralee - Tommy Steele 12 14 14 2680
    26 14 Wandering Eyes / I Love You So Much It Hurts - Charlie Gracie 14 16 11 2680
    10 15 Little Darlin' - The Diamonds 15 17 16 2290
    13 16 Start Movin' - Sal Mineo 18 13 15 2255
    NEW 17 Paralysed - Elvis Presley 16 18 18 2080
    14 18 Butterfingers - Tommy Steele 20 17 1555
    15 19 All Star Hit Parade (Vol 2) - Various Artists 21 19 1370
    18 20 Start Movin' - Terry Dene 26 20 985
    19 21 Dark Moon - Tony Brent 17 910
    16 22 Around The World - Ronnie Hilton 19 780
    20 23 I'm Gonna Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter - Billy Williams 22 585
    NEW 24 Tammy - Debbie Reynolds 23 520
    27 24 In The Middle Of An Island - The King Brothers 23 520
    28 26 In The Middle Of A Dark Dark Night / Sweet Stuff - Guy Mitchell 25 390
    23 27 Lucille - Little Richard 19 300
    NEW 28 Bernadine - Pat Boone (B) 20 275
    25 29 A White Sport Coat - The King Brothers 27 260
    22 30 Around The World - Bing Crosby 28 195
    Butterfly - Andy Williams 29 130
    24 When I Fall In Love - Nat King Cole 30 65
    A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele 15
    21 Yes Tonight Josephine - Johnnie Ray
    29 I Like Your Kind Of Love - Andy Williams
    30 Fire Down Below - Shirley Bassey

    Leave a comment:


  • kingofskiffle
    commented on 's reply
    Now I want to listen to both back to back!

  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Agree. Split sides charting disadvantaged other records that otherwise would have charted. Ideally I would have combined them all into one place but this was not viable. There is no way to ascertain just where a split sided hit combined would place on the chart concerned. The BBC just took the highest of the two charting sides and used that but to my mind that did not fairly represent what may have been a higher chart placing if combined.

    Hence why I took the difficult decision to use the criteria I do for dealing with split sides, it's not ideal and I am the first to admit that, but I think it is at least a better method than that used by the BBC.

    For those who need reminding the system I use is as follows.
    Where the majority of music charts split the sides I do the same and take an average from these to award to the outlier.
    Similarly, where the majority of music papers combine sides I again take an average from these to award to the outlier (if the split side affects the overall UAC position outcome)
    Like I say not ideal but this at least gives a better approximate of a likely chart position in these circumstances.

    Leave a comment:


  • Splodj
    replied
    I was whistling Putting On The Style and morphed into Supercalifragilistic. They are quite similar!

    ​​​​​​MM's double siding this week is a good example of how it distorts by pushing out records that should be in the 20.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I'm still kinda familiar with Tommy Steele's 'Handful Of Songs'. I remember it because my dad whistled this tune incessantly when I was young. Later when I listened to the actual record I realised that the whistling melody I was familiar with was whistled in the actual song.

    Ah those were the days when it was popular for guys to whistle to the popular tunes of the day. We have lost that along the way.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    Greetings Pop Pickers !

    ​​​​Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending August 24th 1957

    Here are all '' the uppers, the downers, the just hanging 'arounders '

    The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending August 24th 1957 NME MM RM Total
    Last This The Sound Survey Stores 65 25 60 Points
    Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart TOP 30 Scored
    1 1 All Shook Up - Elvis Presley 1 1 1 4500
    4 2 Island In The Sun - Harry Belafonte 3 2 2 4285
    3 3 Love Letters In The Sand - Pat Boone 2 3 3 4265
    2 4 Teddy Bear - Elvis Presley 5 4 4 3985
    11 5 Diana - Paul Anka 4 5 5 3965
    8 6 Bye Bye Love - The Everly Brothers 7 6 6 3685
    9 7 Last Train To San Fernando - Johnny Duncan and The Blue Grass Boys 6 7 7 3665
    5 8 Gamblin' Man / Putting On The Style - Lonnie Donegan 8 10 8 3400
    6 9 We Will Make Love - Russ Hamilton 10 8 10 3200
    7 10 Little Darlin' - The Diamonds 11 9 9 3170
    10 11 With All My Heart - Petula Clark 9 11 14 2950
    22 12 Fabulous - Charlie Gracie 12 12 16 2610
    14 13 Start Movin' - Sal Mineo 16 12 13 2530
    12 14 Butterfingers - Tommy Steele 14 14 15 2490
    15 15 All Star Hit Parade (Vol 2) - Various Artists 15 11 2240
    18 16 Around The World - Ronnie Hilton 13 20 18 2225
    30 17 Water Water / A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele 21 12 2153
    17 18 Start Movin' - Terry Dene 20 17 1555
    28 19 Dark Moon - Tony Brent 18 17 1195
    24 20 I'm Gonna Sit Right Down And Write Myself A Letter - Billy Williams 24 20 1115
    19 21 Yes Tonight Josephine - Johnnie Ray 27 19 980
    13 22 Around The World - Bing Crosby 17 910
    16 23 Lucille - Little Richard 23 16 895
    20 24 When I Fall In Love - Nat King Cole 19 780
    21 25 A White Sport Coat - The King Brothers 22 585
    NEW 26 Wandering Eyes / I Love You So Much It Hurts - Charlie Gracie 24 455
    26 27 In The Middle Of An Island - The King Brothers 26 325
    RE 28 In The Middle Of A Dark Dark Night / Sweet Stuff - Guy Mitchell 28 195
    26 29 I Like Your Kind Of Love - Andy Williams 29 130
    NEW 30 Fire Down Below - Shirley Bassey 30 65
    Gamblin' Man - Lonnie Donegan 18
    Water Water - Tommy Steele 15
    A Handful Of Songs - Tommy Steele 18
    23 Mr. Wonderful - Peggy Lee
    24 Any Old Iron - Peter Sellers
    29 Forgotten Dreams - Cyril Stapleton

    Leave a comment:


  • Metalweb
    replied
    The Record Business charts of the late 70s included a 'sales index' indicating the relative sales of each single.

    Years ago I averaged out about 20 (I think) weekly charts and got proportions very close to the Chartwatch formula.

    Leave a comment:


  • MrTibbs
    replied
    I think those are all valid and realistic points you both make.

    Splodj is spot on as I saw many examples of the case he makes in the post above in the RM early dealer returns. Often a #1 single that was #1 in most charts lost out to a single that was #2 in most charts because the points system separates chart positions on a much smaller margin than sales does and so the differential was negligible in the points system.
    All it took was for the #1 single to rank a few places lower in a couple of rogue charts to lose the advantage. The points system failed also as it didn't reflect if the #1 single sold 1 copy or 1001 copies more than #2, the points margin remained the same, and so on down the chart line albeit in ever decreasing numbers of sales.

    So yes I too think that is why the number of #1 singles in the points era changed hands more often. Sales truly reflected the differential between positions that points missed.
    Last edited by MrTibbs; Sun February 13, 2022, 20:33.

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  • Splodj
    replied
    As an example, I can imagine a situation where the top seller was actually number one in most stores but, on a linear points basis, usurped by a record that was number two in more stores. If they had known about the typical sales margin between one and two they might have modified their methods.

    Leave a comment:

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