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The Ultimate Averaged Chart - The BBC Chart Re-Imagined

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  • Yeah guys you are correct there. The BBC did not include the RR chart on 31st December.
    Thanks Borobear for your continuing support too along with the other guys.

    Onward and Upward. Brian.
    The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

    Comment


    • Hello
      Mr Tibbs you must carry on with your full project. Not only is it fascinating to all the forum watchers, but you are researching, correcting and recording British cultural history here.
      I don’t think you realise the importance of what you doing here.

      Many cultural historians underestimate the worldwide effect of the British “Hit Parade” from the 60s through to recent times on international popular music makers, and the subsequent effect on audiences worldwide. Internationally, those ‘in the know’ in the industry read the Billboard chart, then read the NME or MM chart, and then decided what sort of music the public worldwide wanted to hear. Crucial to this was the BBC chart as broadcast on “Pick Of The Pops” and “Top Of The Pops”.
      I don’t give a fig that my rigorous personal notes of the BBC positions for years and years turned out to be incorrect due to the better-researched scheme of things, as stated in your re-imagined charts. I knew then about the BBC sloppiness; I had no idea about the RR sloppiness.
      Concerning the joint 2 controversy, I can categorically state that the BBC chart announced by Alan F for 29/10/66 did not have a joint 2 position. I was there at the time.
      Concerning the correspondent ACA, I can categorically say that from the early 1960s to 1969 “Pick of The Pops” only used the BBC chart, as stated by other people here. I was there at the time.
      I can also categorically say that Radio Luxembourg broadcast the positions of the NME chart throughout the 60s. I was there at the time.
      Of course life has its sacrifices. I refused to let my parents take the family abroad for a summer holiday for several years just so I would not miss the weekly BBC chart!
      membranemusic

      Comment


      • From January 1960 Radio Luxembourg belatedly went over to a records based Top 20 using the end of week NME chart published in the music paper.

        Then on 1-Aug-65 they started using a special more up-to-date chart provided by the NME. We know this because a recording of that edition is on the internet ...

        “This is your ‘DJ BA’ Barry Alldis bidding you welcome to the show which, for the very first time tonight, is based on the latest chart available courtesy of the New Musical Express. It’s a special weekend Top 20 chart supplied by the NME, so we are up to the minute on our hit parade programme.”

        https://offri056.home.xs4all.nl/sound/top20-65.mp3

        The question is: how long did this last? Dave Taylor said it lasted for two years, and I am inclined to believe him - unless anyone can provide a recording after July 1967 that mentions the NME. I think what happened is that they dropped NME and started making up their own charts, but they did this quietly and so anyone (like me) who didn't listen too closely assumed that they were still using NME.

        Cautionary note: There is a site that claims to have Radio Luxembourg's Top 20s from this period https://radiopedia.nl/wiki/Radio_Lux...p_30_(UK)#1966 but when you click on the individual weeks they turn out to be the Top 20s from Record Retailer instead.

        Comment


        • Membrane, I'm both pleased and gratified by your support above, and from every other guy who is commenting and contributing to this thread and I sincerely thank you all for this. It continually motivates me to see this project through to completion which I assure you all I will do.

          Before I post today's chart here is my usual list of year end injustices, the records which were criminally ignored in 1966 and should (in my humble opinion) have charted here in the UK.

          The Young Rascals - Good Lovin' - How could this possibly have missed out !
          The Association - Cherish
          Samantha Juste - No One Needs My Love Today - This so touches my sentimental side.
          Cannibal and The Headhunters - Land Of 1000 Dances
          Frankie Valli - The Proud One
          The Turtles - You Baby - Pop music perfection.
          The Supremes - My World Is Empty Without You

          Brian
          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

          Comment


          • Similar to you Splodj I too listened to the sixties Luxembourg Top 20's at 11pm on Sunday night from around 1966. I had a little hand held transistor radio with one ear piece and had to listen under the bed covers so my parents wouldn't hear it and take it away due to it being so late at night.
            Like you I'm unsure when they moved away from NME but I know for a fact that by early 1969 they were compiling ( and I say that tongue in cheek) their own chart. Not factual of course but highly entertaining as records were all over the place. Paul Burnett was presenting at that time and he was second only to Alan Freeman as my favourite DJ.

            Memories, Memories
            The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

            Comment


            • Greetings Pop Pickers !

              Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending 7th January 1967 for your interest. Happy reading !

              The BBC chart is riddled with ties this week but the points don't tally for joint #7 and joint #12.

              The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 7th 1967 NME MM DISC RR Total
              Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
              Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
              1 1 Green Green Grass Of Home - Tom Jones 1 1 1 1 1 19050
              2 2 Morningtown Ride - The Seekers 2 2 4 2 2 17915
              3 3 Sunshine Superman - Donovan 3 4 2 3 3 17830
              6 4 Save Me - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 4 3 3 4 4 17595
              10 5 Happy Jack - The Who 5 6 6 5 5 16060
              4 6 What Would I Be - Val Doonican 7= 5 7 10 7 15340
              11 7 In The Country - Cliff Richard 7= 9 5 8 9 15070
              7 8 Dead End Street - The Kinks 6 8 8 6 6 14975
              5 9 You Keep Me Hangin' On - The Supremes 9 10 9 7 8 14055
              15 10 Anyway That You Want Me - The Troggs 10 7 10 9 13 13780
              8 11 What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted - Jimmy Ruffin 11 11 11 11 14 12445
              12 12 My Mind's Eye - The Small Faces 12= 12 14 15 10 11435
              16 13 Under New Management - The Barron Knights 15 14 13 14 15 10960
              14 14 Good Vibrations - The Beach Boys 14 15 15 13 11 10700
              13 15 Friday On My Mind - The Easybeats 12= 13 16 16 12 10465
              28 16 Sitting In The Park - Georgie Fame 16 16 18 12 19 9170
              21 17 Pamela Pamela - Wayne Fontana 17 17 17 19 16 8775
              9 18 If Every Day Was Like Christmas - Elvis Presley 18 22 12 22 22 8215
              26 19 (I Know) I'm Losing You - The Temptations 20 23 20 18 23 6330
              18 20 Walk With Faith In Your Heart - The Bachelors 21= 18 22 24 26 5975
              22 21 Distant Drums - Jim Reeves 19 19 26 21 17 5840
              24 22 Call Her Your Sweetheart - Frank Ifield 21= 20 24 17 29 5520
              17 23 Gimme Some Loving - The Spencer Davis Group 23 21 23 26 21 5350
              19 24 Just One Smile - Gene Pitney 24 28 19 27 18 5105
              27 25 Deadlier Than The Male - The Walker Brothers 26= 25 21 28 4000
              NEW 26 I Feel Free - Cream 25 24 27 25 25 3510
              20 27 There Won’t Be Many Coming Home - Roy Orbison 26= 25 25 24 3295
              NEW 28 Mustang Sally - Wilson Pickett 28 29 20 30 1685
              NEW 29 Night Of Fear - The Move 29= 27 23 1600
              RE 30 Reach Out I'll Be There - The Four Tops 29= 30 20 1135
              Island In The Sun - The Righteous Brothers 28 750
              Semi-Detached Suburban Mr James - Manfred Mann 30 28 505
              I'm A Believer - The Monkees 29 400
              Holy Cow - Lee Dorsey 27 340
              I'm Ready For Love - Martha and The Vandellas 29 200
              That's Life - Frank Sinatra 30 100





              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                The BBC chart is riddled with ties this week but the points don't tally for joint #7 and joint #12.
                I would put this down to sloppy miscalculation of the 7s and 12s, because their points do tally for joint 21s, 26s and 29s.

                Comment


                • Agree Splodge. It's so obvious an error I wonder why it was never noticed at the time. Obviously not a lot of checking of figures took place on compilation. As Membrane also said above, sloppy compilation.
                  The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                  Comment


                  • You would think that since the BBC averaging formula was known (as broadcast on POTP), and thus could have been calculated by anyone, that if an artist was penalized because of bad BBC math errors that they would have appealed to the BBC for a fix. And maybe they did, but they weren't given any press or corrections on the next week's show? I wonder if POTP/TOTP ever announced a correction on the next week's show...

                    Comment


                    • Yeah spot on Robin ! I used to watch and listen to them all back then too and can never remember corrections being made public. I think the BBC charts were just accepted at face value. It's only when you see the charts the BBC used lined up side by side that the errors become obvious. At the time to be honest most artists probably followed NME and MM to see how their records were performing. TOTP was most likely seen as just good publicity and promotion of their records by acts.
                      The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                      Comment


                      • What mystifies me is that they did not seem at all embarrassed by ties. When one appeared in their initial calculation you would have thought the least they would do is a check.

                        Beyond that I still can't understand why they did not always apply a tiebreaker system.

                        Comment


                        • I agree. I would have thought that given their chart was broadcast to millions they would have paid more attention to it, would have wanted it to be a robust chart with careful compilation and checking and having a consistent system in place to address ties. But no, it was a casual, cobbled together quickly chart not really fit for purpose. A pity because the principle was sound.
                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                          Comment


                          • Could it be that they assumed (or hoped) that this kind of music was just a fad, so they didn't think it was worth it to make any extra effort. Who would have known that their charts would be so thoroughly analyzed 50-60 years later, they might have thought it would be irrelevant before the 1970s hit.
                            Last edited by BobPatience; Mon September 28, 2020, 02:38.

                            Comment


                            • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                              It's entirely possible actually given that back in the sixties the 'Light' programme later to be Radio 1 in 1967 wasn't entirely devoted to programming just 'pop' music. Even then the BBC didn't treat it as serious music.

                              Meantime, Tally Ho ! Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 14th 1967, and believe it or not there is a joint #2 on the BBC chart with different points. Unbelievable.

                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 14th 1967 NME MM DISC RR Total
                              Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
                              Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                              1 1 Green Green Grass Of Home - Tom Jones 1 1 1 1 1 19050
                              3 2 Sunshine Superman - Donovan 2= 5 2 3 2 17715
                              NEW 3 I'm A Believer - The Monkees 2= 2 5 2 4 17495
                              2 4 Morningtown Ride - The Seekers 4 3 3 7 2 17465
                              10 5 Anyway That You Want Me - The Troggs 7 7 4 5 8 16105
                              5 6 Happy Jack - The Who 5 4 8 4 6 15975
                              4 7 Save Me - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 6 6 6 6 5 15960
                              7 8 In The Country - Cliff Richard 8 8 7 8 7 14940
                              8 9 Dead End Street - The Kinks 9 11 9 12 9 13270
                              6 10 What Would I Be - Val Doonican 10= 9 10 14 10 13135
                              9 11 You Keep Me Hangin' On - The Supremes 10= 10 11 11 11 12900
                              16 12 Sitting In The Park - Georgie Fame 12 13 12 9 13 12080
                              29 13 Night Of Fear - The Move 13 14 15 13 17 10390
                              17 14 Pamela Pamela - Wayne Fontana 15= 16 14 22 12 9765
                              NEW 15 Standing In The Shadows Of Love - The Four Tops 15= 12 19 10 23 9580
                              15 16 Friday On My Mind - The Easybeats 14 17 16 16 14 9495
                              11 17 What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted - Jimmy Ruffin 17 19 13 18 16 9475
                              14 18 Good Vibrations - The Beach Boys 18 23 17 20 15 7560
                              19 19 (I Know) I'm Losing You - The Temptations 19 20 20 17 19 7370
                              26 20 I Feel Free - Cream 20 18 22 19 21 6900
                              13 21 Under New Management - The Barron Knights 21 25 18 24 18 6255
                              NEW 22 Matthew And Son - Cat Stevens 23 15 23 21 6200
                              12 23 My Mind's Eye - The Small Faces 22 21 21 25 20 6035
                              NEW 24 Hey Joe - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 24 24 26 15 4250
                              20 25 Walk With Faith In Your Heart - The Bachelors 26 27 24 29 26 3175
                              22 26 Call Her Your Sweetheart - Frank Ifield 25 26 29 23 27 2640
                              NEW 27 Nashville Cats - The Lovin' Spoonful 29 30 25 27 2100
                              28 28 Mustang Sally - Wilson Pickett 27 22 29 1970
                              21 29 Distant Drums - Jim Reeves 28 27 22 1765
                              27 30 There Won't Be Many Coming Home - Roy Orbison 30= 28 30 28 1105
                              Deadlier Than The Male - The Walker Brothers 28 750
                              Single Girl - Sandy Posey 29 28 700
                              Sugar Town - Nancy Sinatra 30 26 700
                              Just One Smile - Gene Pitney 30= 24 595
                              Reach Out I'll Be There - The Four Tops 25 510
                              A Place In The Sun - Stevie Wonder 30 100
                              Gimme Some Loving - The Spencer Davis Group 30 85





                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                              Comment


                              • Greetings Pop Pickers !

                                Off to work I go !

                                But first. Here is the next Ultimate Averaged Chart for Week Ending January 21st 1967.

                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart - Week Ending January 21st 1967 NME MM DISC RR Total
                                Last This The Sound Survey Stores 200 250 100 85 Points
                                Week Week The Top 30 Singles Chart BBC TOP 30 Scored
                                3 1 I'm A Believer - The Monkees 1 1 1 1 1 19050
                                1 2 Green Green Grass Of Home - Tom Jones 2 2 2 2 2 18415
                                6 3 Happy Jack - The Who 3 3 3 3 3 17780
                                4 4 Morningtown Ride - The Seekers 5= 4 4 13 4 16245
                                5 5 Anyway That You Want Me - The Troggs 4 6 5 4 9 16070
                                15 6 Standing In The Shadows Of Love - The Four Tops 5= 5 8 6 10 15235
                                13 7 Night Of Fear - The Move 7 8 7 8 7 14940
                                2 8 Sunshine Superman - Donovan 8 10 6 9 5 14860
                                22 9 Matthew And Son - Cat Stevens 9 7 11 5 11 14100
                                8 10 In The Country - Cliff Richard 10 12 10 7 6 13575
                                7 11 Save Me - Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick and Tich 11 9 12 12 8 13005
                                12 12 Sitting In The Park - Georgie Fame 12 13 9 11 12 12715
                                24 13 Hey Joe - The Jimi Hendrix Experience 13 11 17 10 16 10875
                                14 14 Pamela Pamela - Wayne Fontana 14 15 13 17 14 10545
                                20 15 I Feel Free - Cream 15 14 18 15 13 9780
                                10 16 What Would I Be - Val Doonican 17 16 15 19 18 9305
                                NEW 17 Let's Spend The Night Together / Ruby Tuesday - The Rolling Stones 18 17 14 14 26 9175
                                9 18 Dead End Street - The Kinks 16 18 16 18 15 9010
                                11 19 You Keep Me Hangin' On - The Supremes 19 19 19 16 17 8090
                                19 20 (I Know) I'm Losing You - The Temptations 20 23 21 20 19 6220
                                16 21 Friday On My Mind - The Easybeats 21 25 20 27 21 5200
                                NEW 22 Single Girl - Sandy Posey 22 21 25 21 27 4840
                                18 23 Good Vibrations - The Beach Boys 23 27 22 23 23 4530
                                26 24 Call Her Your Sweetheart - Frank Ifield 24 24 26 22 24 4145
                                17 25 What Becomes Of The Brokenhearted - Jimmy Ruffin 25 28 24 24 22 3815
                                27 26 Nashville Cats - The Lovin' Spoonful 26 26 23 25 30 3685
                                NEW 27 I've Been A Bad Bad Boy - Paul Jones 27 20 27 28 3500
                                NEW 28 Sugar Town - Nancy Sinatra 28 22 28 26 3050
                                NEW 29 A Place In The Sun - Stevie Wonder 29 20 935
                                RE 30 Heart - Rita Pavona 30 29 700
                                Ruby Tuesday - The Rolling Stones 29
                                Distant Drums - Jim Reeves 30 25 510
                                Tell It To The Rain - The Four Seasons 30 29 450
                                Mustang Sally - Wilson Pickett 30 28 355
                                Under New Management - The Barron Knights 29 170
                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                Comment


                                • I was wondering why I'm A Believer took so long to get to the top, having been released in December, then saw that The Monkees TV series did not start in the UK till New Years Eve.

                                  Comment


                                  • ^
                                    according to 45cat.com 'I'm A Believer' was released in the UK on 30 December 1966. It entered the Record Retailer chart at number 42 on the chart dated 7 January 1967 which would have been based on sales to 31 December 1966.

                                    It's a great song and a complete contrast to the misery of the record that it replaced at the top. That said I don't mind the Tom Jones single but it's hardly a happy song and isn't exactly the sort of record that would bring much Christmas and New Year cheer.

                                    Comment


                                    • Thanks for that. For a release date I was going on the less reliable guide that I'm A Believer entered the Big L Fab 40 on Christmas Day and had been a 'climber' the week before. I suppose they had an advance copy!

                                      Comment


                                      • Lol at Robbie's comment above. I agree the Tom Jones single was a dull dirge of a song and it kept the excellent Donovan single from the top grrrrrrrrr
                                        The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                        Comment


                                        • Splodj what was the Big L fab 40 .?
                                          The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                          Comment


                                          • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                                            Splodj what was the Big L fab 40 .?
                                            It was the pirate station Radio London's top 40 chart.

                                            http://www.radiolondon.co.uk/rl/scra...rty/index.html

                                            Comment


                                            • Thanks Robbie
                                              The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                              Comment


                                              • I've just bought the newly released Ready Steady Go book on Amazon. It includes every performance on the shows etc etc. It's a massive book with lots of information about the show. As Cathy McGowan would say 'Absolutely Smashing'. I get it Thursday.
                                                The Ultimate Averaged Chart. The Definitive Chart Reflecting The Sixties.

                                                Comment


                                                • Originally posted by MrTibbs View Post
                                                  Lol at Robbie's comment above. I agree the Tom Jones single was a dull dirge of a song and it kept the excellent Donovan single from the top grrrrrrrrr
                                                  I like the Tom Jones single ( but then I've always been a Death Disc fan!)

                                                  I think it's actually the first hit song I can remember people singing in the playground at school....

                                                  Agree it's hardly seasonal though!

                                                  Comment


                                                  • Originally posted by Robbie View Post
                                                    ^
                                                    It's a great song and a complete contrast to the misery of the record that it replaced at the top. That said I don't mind the Tom Jones single but it's hardly a happy song and isn't exactly the sort of record that would bring much Christmas and New Year cheer.
                                                    There wasn't much Christmas cheer especially in Wales in 1966. Something to do with the fact a big slag heap had just wiped out an entire school of kids back in October. Tom's song, which by the way he got from a New York record store that year - Jerry Lee's - Country Songs For City Folks, sort of resonated with the public, with Tom being Welsh, after that event.
                                                    Education for anyone aged 12 to 16 has made a mess of the world!

                                                    Comment

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